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In a report for the Bergen Record, Ian O’Conner talks with Willie Randolph about the manager’s image among fans.
Randolph, on not being helped by SNY, as quoted by O’Conner, who pens a fascinating column about the skipper:
“(The television producers) are the artists, I’m the canvas. They paint the picture the way they want to. They want to show me when somebody gives up a home run or somebody makes an error, so they want to see me [using profanity]…Well, my players are watching the monitors in the bullpen going, ‘Look at Skip, he’s cursing us out.’ That’s not how I lead. But when the game is over, I’m [on them]. ‘And why don’t you turn over a couple of [food] spreads?’ I’ve done that. You might not know it.
“Why [isn’t] SNY shooting me when I’m ready to go down the dugout clapping my hands and patting guys on the butt, schooling them during the game? I’m on the top step every game…Why don’t you show that side of me so people can say, ‘Wow, jeez, Willie’s fiery’?…You watch any manager in baseball, you see him look like a bump on the log sitting there. They don’t move, they don’t talk. I’m as animated and as demonstrative and as involved and as intense as any manager in baseball.”
…the above is just a sample…so, you should read o’conner’s entire column, as they discuss some interesting topics…
In Sunday’s New York Post, Ryan Church was asked to compare the managerial styles of Randolph and Manny Acta, who he played for in DC, and said:
“Similar. You see those managers out there who get up in your face and scream in front of the camera and all this other stuff – they’re not like that. But, they have that in them…behind closed doors.”
Speaking of ‘behind closed doors,’ Lee Mazzilli had the following to say about the subject during last night’s post-game show on SNY:
“What happens behind closed doors is the most important thing, that we as outsiders never get to see or hear. When we’re allowed in there, we see a different type of clubhouse. It’s behind closed doors when those leaders stand out, that’s the most important thing.”
The way it should be. People need to stop. You take care of things in house, never in public.
Exactly. You can’t do too much during a game either. Sometimes you may need to scream and piss off a player to motivate them, but if you do it during a game, all they’re going to be pissed and angry. Focus on winning the game, take care of that stuff later.
But if he does not blow up after every call and get thrown out every game he has no heart….tough life of a manager
Are you people for real? This was a perfect chance for Willie to show that we are all wrong and that he really watches out for his players and is behind them, and, HE BLEW IT !!!! He should have been out there fighting with the umps. They made a mistake and he knew it and gave up to easy. Instead of taking a bullet for the team he had his bench get thrown out, what a coward. If the Mets had lost that game by 1 or 2 runs it would have been Willie’s fault. I like Willie and hope he brings a WS to the METS, but, lets stop the BS. There are times to fight and get thrown out of game for the right reason and then there is the hype and wrong time for it, this was the right time. Show some guts and fire and fight for your team and your players. This is the problem with Willie, he does nothing. Perhaps this is SNY and the METS wanting us to all focus our attention on Willie and take the pressure off the players? If they didnt want Willie around he would have been gone after the big collapse. Now, after the big meeting, Willie and the METS look great..hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I think we have all been played like fools. Willie is the MAN and we are not worthy. LETS GO METS !!!!
I’m glad this was finally said. And the same points can be made about so-called player “leadership” as well. People get on Beltran or Delgado because they don’t rant in front of the cameras but they have no idea about how they deal with other players, and what kind of example they set in their own work ethic when the cameras and reporters aren’t around.
My point is we just don’t know, all we know is the story that SNY or the New York Post thinks will increase viewership or sell more papers.
I’ve been saying the same thing to all the Willy haters for months. None of us are privy to what really goes on behind closed doors and its silly to comment on whether or not Randolph is fiery enough or not since none of us play for him and the majority of us don’t have access to the clubhouse.
Im not for or against him at this point, but I think, as I always have said here, that Willy isn’t the problem, its our WS caliber team not living up to half of their potential and no manager will change that for the long haul if the personal accountability and professional drive isn’t there within the athletes.
I wouldn’t classify myself as a Willie-hater – as that name-calling feeling won’t get my point across.
Nevertheless, we fans do not know what happens behind closed doors, so we do rely on other resources to find out the latest-and-greatest, behind-the-scenes discussions.
I do not like to assume, therefore, I must go with what I see, hear, and what is said. The behind-closed-door meetings, in addition to their team performance on the field, have led me to believe that something is missing.
We’re not asking Willie to be someone who he is not – rather, show all the die-hard supportive fans that you can take a step outside your minute-by-minute personality.
Leaders are capable of not only doing things that they may not be used to doing, in addition to not wanting to do them — Leaders find a way to do whatever it takes — for the sake of his/her team.
Willie should’ve been the one to get tossed from yesterday’s game — not one of his coaches sticking-up for him — rather Willie sticking-up for them.
Willie was out on the field arguing the call sticking up for his team. From what I have read the ump was picking a fight trying to get Willie to say something back so he could run him. Seems Manuel got first words back to him. The manager getting thrown out does not improve the team’s chances of winning. Willie and Manuel were jawing at the ump. The ump said something and Manuel said the magic word back to him. I personally want a manager who is able to keep his head and focus on the game. The chances of the umps overturning a call just because you argue is really rare. Stay in the game and pick your fights. At least you do not come off as a whiny old guy like Bobby Cox who gets tossed arguing balls and strikes were even through the ball was a foot off the plate.
I beg to differ regarding the influence of a manager getting tossed from a game.
If you recall, Sweet Lou Pinella went on a spree of fits, and although they were quite humorous – it was precisely what the Cubs needed, and they immediately turned their season around.
Yes, there are times when it’s not necessary, however, last time I checked – Bobby Cox and Lou Pinella are both doing rather well with their respective teams. I don’t believe anyone can say that having a manager tossed from a game doesn’t mean anything to the team.
this is true though, willie hi-fives his guys after big plays, pats them on the butt after good plays, you see him constantly talking to his guys, probably teaching them and what not, and i’m sure behind closed doors, as he and other players have said, he does get very upset. Most managers don’t go ballistic during games, sorry, that’s not how it works. But Willie does argue, and he has gotten calls over turned. How quick we forget. I think the criticism of Willie’s in game managerial tactics is fair, he’s not the greatest, he makes mistakes sometimes, its true. But the criticisms of him being bland is just not true. That’s how he acts to the media, and you can just tell, he doesn’t like sharing stuff to them, doesn’t see the point in it, to him its not about the media, its about his team. I’m as big a fan as anyone, and I don’t see why I, as a fan, need to know exactly what Willie is thinking, or what he said behind closed doors, or who he told off. That’s between him and his players, and thats how it should be.
What call has willie gotten overturned? I am curious to know, because as willie himself has pointed out, why argue when they aren’t going to change their mind?
The attitude of this team is indicative of the managers attitude, in front of and behind the cameras. there is no other accurate way to assess his leadership than by looking at his team. a team takes on the managers persona, they follow his lead. If you think that willie is fiery behind the scenes that is fine. I do not think that is true at all. It took wagner speaking out of turn for their to be a team meeting. and that was after going 3-4 at home against the 2 worst teams in the N.L.
Bottom line is if this team performs it does not matter whether willie is a fiery guy or not. same thing if it does not perform Win games and there is no problem. and i don’t like willie in the least, but winning is what is important to me.
i can’t remember the call, but it happened, as for team meetings, this team has a team meeting before every series, its great and all to think that’s the reason we won these games, but I think thats overblown. I also think Willie being the reason we win or lose is overblown. If the players like him and play for him, that’s fine, but its up to the players to get it done. We have the talent, its up to them to step up. Everyone wants a more firery manager, but would a guy like that take the time to coddle Reyes? or would he just yell at him and put even more pressure on him and ruin him? that’s why in the end, its up to Reyes, not someone telling Reyes what to do.
Is it fair to give Wagner credit for ripping into everyone? That seemed to spark the team meeting where it forced everyone to “clear the air and just go out and play” as Ryan Church put it.
Im with ya darkstar… The only thing i could think of that willie overturned is that play with atlanta. They ruled it a catch and willie fought to have it reversed and won.
Willie got a call overturned earlier this year in Atlanta. When Kotsay trapped it. Umps orignally called it an out
Willie argued a call in April, I think, where a fly ball to right field was clearly trapped by the fielder but was ruled caught by the ump. Willie argued and the call was overturned.
Sorry not to remember the specifics.
I will always fondly recall Gil Hodges persuading the ump in 69 that Clean Jones had been hit by a pitch in the foot. Calm persuasion is usually a better bet than histrionics.
Jay has it. Center field, not right. And Kotsay was the culprit.
I love the username!
Carl Hubbard?
Hubbell
The guy most want to replace Willie is Manny Acta who is a “fiery guy”. Ryan Church who has had both as managers has said they are the exact same coach. He has said they are in your face behind closed doors. Why would Church lie that Willie is in your face? Quite honestly everyone thinks Lou Pinella or Larry Bowa be better for this team then Willie but I see them as not being good at all. If either shows up a player in public it could certainly turn the player off and have them shut down completely.
Detroit (predicted best team in baseball) with their “old-school” x’s and o’s rah rah manager of Jim Leyland is currently 10 games under .500. A big deal was made of how the team was ripped into by the manager and they have only gotten worse. They haven’t seemed to take on the “fiery” personality of their manager.
To me everyone is overstating how a manager effects the outcome of a game or how a team plays.
That third consecutive home run that (Wright?) hit that bounced off the bleachers against the Phillies last year.
Great question KJ – as I’m also very curious to learn of the calls overturned by Willie’s managerial influence with umpires.
I must disregard comments that cannot be backed-up by a true example, and I still believe that Willie needs to show a smiggen of the New York attitude.
I was glad to hear of their closed-door meeting, because it was the first-time that I can recall hearing of a serious, heart-to-heart talk from Coach to Players.
The unfortunate thing is how it took Wagner’s comments to call a serious meeting, because I feel such a meeting should’ve been called upon no matter what.
I could not disagree more. IMO, Willie, by making these types of statements, comes across as a whiny b**ch, a guy who’s so sensitive to the criticism of the fans and the perception of the press that I think he actually wants them to feel guilty for having the nerve to criticize him.
I still think, as I have since the last game of the 2006 NLCS, that he is not the right choice for this team, and nothing I’ve seen or observed since then has changed my mind; in fact, the opposite is true.
Small wonder we have picked Willie as the Big Pussy Pick of the Week, an honor I expect he’ll earn a few more times before the season is out.
I don’t understand how he comes across as being whiny. He’s just answering the questions that are presented to him. How else do you want him to answer? Him and Joe Giradi have to deal with the most unrelenting press in the world. It’s tiring and can be overwhelming, but part of the job. I don’t think Randolph’s answers are whiny. He’s just telling it as he see it. It’s funny cause Lou Pinella and Ozzie Guillen make similar comments here in Chicago. Are they whiny too? Give me a break.
Exactly right, Icon. Willie’s been manager for nearly three and a half seasons. In all that time, I can’t recall a single time he’s lashed out at the media and blamed them for a creating a negative perception of the team. Most managers would not be able to hold up under the pressure of managing here in NY.
You want whiny? Try Lou Pinella.
Good comment MealTicket . . .
I don’t thnk you can recall a time when Willie lashed-out at the media – because I’m quite sure it has never happened.
The only lash-out is telling the media how they’re going through yet another rough time – which they’ll get through. He’ll clap his hands from the dugout after the first relief pitcher gives-up a lead-off walk; he’ll clap his hands to give support, and when the bullpen blows the game – Willie will face the media – and tell them how unlucky they were, and how things like this happens, and how it’s a long season, and how we’ll get-em tomorrow.
Far from lashing-out huh.
Sweet Lou may whine, however, his Cubbies are tough and doing rather well I might add.
You Willie haters come across a whole lot whinier than Willie. If he ignores the talk, he’s in denial. If he addresses it, he’s too sensitive to the criticism.
God I hope the team breaks off a run of W’s and ends all this crap.
Word.
This is what really irks me about the “Comments” section. Randolph’s supporters chide his detractors for having being too quick to howl calamity and predict doom and gloom after every poorly played series, but then the team wins a whopping two games against a Yankees team in a deep funk of their own, and it’s “where are the ‘haters’ now?!?!” blah, blah, blah. Hypocrisy, perhaps?
In case I need to spell it out for you, you’re doing the SAME THING the alleged “haters” are — demonstrating the attention span of a gnat. Big picture: team has a winning record, which is good, but there are bad signs — they haven’t been mounting any comebacks, and haven’t been playing clean, crisp, smart baseball consistently. These games were a big step in the right direction, but there’s a lot more data going back than these two games.
Enough with the firey, not firey and argue / don’t argue back and forth.
Speaking as a Willie-hater, I could care less if he is demonstrative during games or argues calls. All I care about are results. If he is a bump on a log and the team plays crisp, winning baseball – then more power to him.
However, because results matter, not these other distractions – he should have been gone after The Collapse and is still on the hook for the calendar-year’s worth of .500 play.
That said, let’s hope the whole Wags incident and the meeting etc is what this team needed and we start seeing more consistency from the Mets. If not, Willie has to go – no matter how much fire he shows.
Wow.. I guess you think reality TV shows fairly reflect the personalities of the contestants, too?
Editing can have an enormous effect on perception, and there’s two layers of editing going on here: Willie’s own public/private distinction, plus the press sticking to what sells papers.
The most damning thing that has been suggested about Willie recently, in my eyes, is not that he’s not firey enough or some other BS (we can’t know what he’s like because we’re not in the closed-door meetings), not even that his in-game moves are questionable. There was recently the suggestion that the players, whilst they don’t disrespect Willie, don’t have an enormous amount of respect for him. If that’s the case, it’s hard to see how he can lead the team, but again, you have to wonder whether that’s really true, or whether it’s a story being written for the sake of writing the story.
If you ask me, his calm demeanour and refusal to throw the players en masse under the bus to the press is actually one of Willie’s best traits. It does irritate me the way he can’t give praise without a little dig, even after really good performances, though. That said, the way OP pitched yesterday (and he has been the main victim of Willie’s little barbs) suggests Willie might be on the right track with him, so what do I know?
what reason does SNY have to paint willie in a negative light? it is owned primarily by the team. ownership did not need an excuse to fire willie after last season and so it has no interest in making him look bad.
SNY is trying to make willie look bad while metsblog is constantly covering his tracks, right? come on people.
No reason. They’re bound to show him more often when the team is on the field, on when he’s sending signs with runners on. He’s not going to be high-fiving “his guys” when they’re on the field of play. At least, I hope not. From Willie’s perspective, somebody watching the games probably told him he looks like a stone-faced idiot, and that’s inconsistent with his image of himself. . . . but people usually aren’t sufficient self-aware/absorbed to know how much time they’re really spending, e.g., high-fiving versus trying to look stoic.
I’d like to see Willie punch out a player mid-game. I mean, it would be horrible… and freakin sweet at the same time.
My only problem with Willie’s style is his stubbornness, and I understand why he sticks to his master plan, even if I don’t agree with the day-to-day of it. He manages the team he wants, and not always the team he has.
As far as the leadership angle, the “fire,” whatever, to me all those complaints are total BS. As we’ve heard, nobody knows what goes on between the mgr and the players. I wouldn’t mind seeing him get in an umps face, but I don’t think he need to get run just to make a show for the fans.
The best thing that could happen to this team is a mass show of support for Willie by the players, which we’ve seen a bit of in the last couple of days, followed by an extended run of W’s.
Agreed gameball.
I’m old enough to remember the same criticisms of Torre that we’re hearing about Willie, when Torre was with the Mets, Braves and Cards. Yankee fans HATED that Torre was named manager; he was dim-witted, he was slow to adapt to game situations, he had no fire, etc.
It’s all about matching the manager to the team’s personality(-ies) and playing style.
Interesting choice of quotes to include in this post. Some of the other quotes in the article really show his disconnect with the fans:
“They don’t like me?” Randolph said. ” ‘We don’t like Willie.’ Wait a minute, why don’t you like me? I don’t get it. Did I do anything to you? If you look at what I’ve done for your club, you should like me a little bit.”
“If you look at my body of work since I’ve been here,” Randolph said, “I’m proud of that, because prior to that Mets fans were hiding. You couldn’t even find them … The season’s just starting and you’re booing my guys already? You’re booing your team?’ “
I believe that Willie has the best winning percentage of any NL skipper since taking over in 2005. I know that’s not enough to overcome the communal grief we all feel about last year’s collapse. But it is one of the two things a manager’s supposed to do:
1. win ballgames
2. get team to post-season.
They didn’t get to the post season last year.
.500 record since last June 1st.
Historical collapse year.
1 playoff appearance-lost to 83 win team at home.
What season is it? Lets stop with this bs of .500 since last year. It is 2008 get over it.
1 playoff appearance – lost to eventual WS champions in very close game 7 of NLCS, whilst without 2 of best 3 pitchers.
an 83 win team. pitching wasn’t the problem. a very close game 7 in thier own building.
and i will get over it when this team plays like they are capable of playing.
Well, to be fair, you kind of have to talk about the way they have played since June of last year because it is a trend that led to them failing to make the playoffs and has continued into this season. And like it or not, he is leading this team. If something is wrong, it is up to him to get the players to fix it. He has adopted the hands off approach since he has been here (or so it would seem), and whatever he was doing isn’t working now.
As for the Willie conspiracy, all of that comes with managing in NY, he really doesn’t have grounds to complain about that. He knew this city was a firestorm when he took the job, if he didn’t know, than he’s a bigger fool than we thought.
I also didn’t care for his rant on Friday when he criticized the fans for wanting him to get fired and to have his livelihood taken away. Somehow, I think Willie is going to be okay if and when he gets fired. His wife and kids are not going to be hurting if he is out of work, he will probably find a coaching or broadcasting gig anyway. That “Poor Me” rant was pathetic.
Cool Cyclone, so let’s tell your boss you should be fired because you are wasting his time writing on blogs.
That would suck.
It’s not like Willie is making Tony Larussa or Joe Torre money, he’s at the bottom of the manager pay scale (which is still nothing to sneeze at), but he took that to heart.
The same way I’m sure you didn’t appreciate my opening line.
I’ve told my boss on more than one occassion that she can fire me or put whatever problem she has with me on my review, JSC. The reason she doesn’t is because I still manage to get the job done, despite spending what seems like a lot of time here.
But if I do get fired, I am not going to cry poor me. Business is business. It’s never personal.
U R right. It’s one thing for your boss to fire you, it’s another thing for somebody from outside ur organization to call for your head.
That’s the price Willie pays for being in a position where you are not only accountable to your employer, but to the fans. It’s almost like the Mets are a public company and the fans are the shareholders. They are simply voicing a vote of “No Confidence”.
Exactly. . . Booing his guys. . .Don’t do it!!
LOL. Puh-lease.
I’d only wanna see Willie “lose it” in public in a Philly series. I think he’s done a great job in New York. It’s funny how quickly people forget how the days of Art Howe & Co. were.
Hey, at least Art Howe’s teams “battled” right? JK.
lol
Man, maybe I’m selling myself short but as a kid trying to watch and listen to the Mets games on a scrambled SportsChannel was how big of a fan I was. This was during a time when the Mets consistantly lost 90 games. I would never miss a game, and seeing Willie whip this team in to shape and having them believe they are winners is great. The team showing a “lack of fire” or not executing is disappointing but it’s never solely the manager’s fault. I couldn’t be happier having Willie as our manager. Has the team underachieved? Yes, but things could be much worse. And what does firing Willie solve? The team plays better for a 20 game stretch and then returns to playing as they would have under Willie. There are no candidates to manage the Mets who could hold his Jockstrap.
and seeing Willie whip this team in to shape and having them believe they are winners is great.”
You are joking right? and Paris Hilton has put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to achieve her station in life as well!!
Good comeback! Did you google that one?
1. it’s ironic that in a story about the media misrepresenting willy it is asserted, with no factual support, that willy wants to choke billy wagner, his team’s best player. i bet willy’s jaw hit the floor when he read that.
2. willy should hesitate to pull the race card, especially with such poor comparisons. coughlin was treated worse than herm, when he had more success, and no media outlet could treat isiah as badly as he deserves.
willy should hesitate to pull the race card
It shouldn’t even cross his mind. If he “knows New York” as much as he always claims to, he’d know that Tom Coughlin, Jim Fassel, and yes, Joe Torre have all been roasted alive in New York this decade. It had nothing to do with race, and everything to do with performance and expectations.
After what happened last year, if Willie says that he doesn’t get where all this criticism is coming from, he’s either a fool or a liar. Adding race into the equation is at best insulting and at worst deeply disturbing.
It’s hiding behind people who have dealt with real adversity because of race — and he can look at a pioneer who played the same position he did as a prime example. I don’t think Met fans will be intimidated, either. We who have been critical of Willie know that it has zero to do with race.
I just read the article, and you have got to be kidding me! what a load of hooey! and i am being kind.
come on Matt, why wouldn’t you include the piece about met fans owing him something for “what I’ve done for your club.” Or that prior to willie getting there met fans were “hiding.” Or wililes insinuation that this is about race?
“Is it racial?” Randolph asks. “Huh? It smells a little bit.”
He then goes on to suggest that Herm Edwards and Isiah Thomas were somehow mistreated!
And come-on, SNY is portraying him in a negative light? He was on ESPN last night ,and, with the exception of the time that he was hiding behind Jerry Manuel, every time they showed him he was standing in the same exact place, not moving. This is ridiculous, The wilpons should be embarassed.
Were we watching the same game? Maybe it was being simulcasted on YES.
I don’t know. I watched with an objective eye. did you?
Absolutely. In fact, Manuel argued for 2 seconds, after Willie wouldn’t pipe down and was told to be quiet by the home plate ump. He was animated in the dugout just as he was the day before.
Thanks, kjmcc0729… somebody who finally gets it. Someone in one of the other comments above wanted to know how I think Willie comes across as “whiny;” well, read the article, and use your head. And put two and two together, and think about all the things Willie has said over the past few weeks, and maybe even further back. Then come back and ask me again. LOL
exactly why should the wilpons be embarassed?
if you have to ask, then there is no way for you to ever understand. there is something called integrity. some have it, some do not. willie blames everyone but himself for the way things are going. Joe Torre had more pressure on him the last 2 years than willie has had yet. but did Joe ever blame the YES network for portraying him in a bad manner? Did Torre ever suggest that the fans should feel indebted to him? Did torre ever suggest that he is treated differently because he is italian? Willie embarrassed himself, his team, the fans, and the owners by showing an absolute lack of integrity. Just shut up and show us we are wrong by winning more than you lose. win the NL East, go to the world series. that will shut us up a hell of lot quicker than by playing the race card!
Actually, Torre constantly complained that Steinbrenner was feeding questions to the YES reporter in the clubhouse to make Torre look bad.
Are you saying Randolph has no integrity? Now I’ve heard it all, let the character assassination begin!
That could not be furthest from the truth! Like him as manager or not, he is incredibly well respected by his peers. The Wilpons have nothing to be embarrassed about when it comes to how Randolph conducts himself.
“in the NL East, go to the world series. that will shut us up a hell of lot quicker than by playing the race card!”
No, it won’t. You’ll just blame him for the team losing in the World Series. They could win the whole thing and people will complain that he didn’t celebrate with enough “fire” and didn’t have his players backs during the parade or some such other nonsense that has nothing to do with anything.
booo, you are just being silly. this blog should be about inteligent discourse.
Um, that ship already sailed.
Although I don’t agree with Willie’s whole assessment with the “race card” hoopla, no way can you compare someone being Italian and someone being Black in that same light, and you know that.
Don’t know that I do. my point is that it is about the man, not his race. and torre never made stupid remarks to the media that he is being portrayed unfairly. I don’t like the way that willie manages, or how he deflects blame for that. to suggest that fans are treating him different because of his race is insulting to the fans.
please spare me. stop reading into things that aren’t there. you throw the word “integrity” around as if you’re the sole judge of who exemplifies it and who doesn’t.
rule #1 – don’t believe everything you read.
what am i reading into? he said that race could be an issue with how he is being treated. i think that is b.s. worse, it is incendiary b.s. he is being criticized for not doing his job. period. to suggest otherwise is to insult his fan base, or anyone critcial of him.
willie is correct on just about every account especially his leadership style.
yeah, especially the part we’re were all racists for not liking him
hey, could you pull that quote?
i must of missed where it said that
Randolph excluded Ozzie Guillen from the conversation, but wanted to know why the traits often admired in the calm, cool and collected likes of Joe Torre are portrayed as flaws in Torre’s former third base coach.
“Is it racial?” Randolph asked. “Huh? It smells a little bit.”
Asked directly if he believes black managers are held to different standards than their white counterparts, Randolph said: “I don’t know how to put my finger on it, but I think there’s something there. Herman Edwards did pretty well here and he won a couple of playoff [games], and they were pretty hard on Herm. Isiah [Thomas] didn’t do a great job, but they beat up Isiah pretty good. … I don’t know if people are used to a certain figurehead. There’s something weird about it.
“I think it’s very important … that I handle myself in a way that the [African-American managers] coming behind me will get the opportunities, too … .”
i don’t see him calling you a racist for not liking him.
judging by the fact that you have brought up race twice in one stings of post- dykstraw:”really the best part of the article is where willie compares himself to herm edwards and ISIAH THOMAS–you are pretty senstivie about race too.
all willie did was acknowledge that race is still an issue, and questioned why in recent new york sports history, black coaches have had to manage expectations that white coaches perhaps haven’t.
why did d’antoni get hired instead of mark jackson?
why was coughlin given an extension when he was PERCEIVED to be ineffectual?
if you read that and think willie is calling YOU a racist, then you might want to wonder what you’re so sensitive about
no, i don’t need to wonder about my sensitivity. i don’t like his flaws, so i am apparently in the group of people who “smells a little bit” of “racism.” so yes, while he didn’t address me by name or metsblog handle, he basically called me a racist.
and i didn’t bring up race. i brought up two coaches who sucked and left town because of it. and if willie thinks those guys are the horses he wants to hitch his wagon to he’s more foolish than i thought.
Couldn’t agree more, Harry.
Quite frankly, were I willie, I would’ve brought up Byron Scott to prove my point.
and harry, race is an issue that was raised by willie, not dykstraw. it is insulting for him to insinuate that this has anything to do with race. maybe he can file a grievance when his hispanic general manager fires him.
my point is that dykstraw brought up race in different posts in response to this article.
i read the artice, i realize dykstraw is responding to that.
why is it insulting that willie bring up the issue of race?
the piece was about how he was portrayed in the media. is it insulting that he would question whether race had something to do with it?
i don’t get who that insults? and how? and why?
um, he said part of the reason people don’t like him as manager is because of race. i do not like him. therefore, i am supposedly at least somewhat racist.
pretty straightforward imo.
If he’s treated differently in the media because of race, it’s only the pussyfooting around everybody has to do for fear of being labeled a “racist” for the slightest non-race-related criticism. . . . and then he goes ahead and gleefully hints at a racially angle anyway. . . .
i don’t think it’s that straighfoward, just like the way race gets played out in baseball, the media, this country.
Harry, if the mets won the world series, would you be any less or more happy because it was done with an african-american manager?
leave it to dykstraw to appeal to the lowest commmon denominator.
i can’t imagine how a more “in your face” manager would make his players try harder. if we have players that aren’t trying then the problem isn’t the manager. the idea of a manager as a motivator is the most overcredited phenomenon in sports. baseball is the livelihood of these men and also a game they’ve played for fun their entire lives, but for some reason, when they’re on the biggest stage in the world, they aren’t trying? it makes no sense.
Couldn’t agree with you more.
why exactly do they issue a Manager of the Year award each year?
So, the media members who vote on it can feel important and some company can pay MLB a lot of money to sponsor it. That’s just a guess off the top of my head.
And who has been in the running each of the last three years?
What? did you say Willie Randolph? The guy managing the Mets? Oh.. that’s what I thought…
Good point blamous. kind of tough to argue with that logic.
Exactly. If Randolph had somehow “lost” this team, Omar and Wilpons would have known it and he would not be here right now. Heck, he would not have survived September. If anything, the exact opposite is probably true, they probably saved his job.
There is alot of fair criticism here on what willie does between the lines, I agree with alot of it. But all this other stuff is what happens when a manager is run out of town by fans and the media, and that is what is happening to willie.
And I remember Bobby V coming across as :whiny” when trying to defend himself. Its funny how the fans criticize his lack of “fire”, but when he tries to defend himself he gets accused of being a whiner.
If the players don’t want to play for him, he will get fired very quickly. In the meantime, lets try to judge him by how he manages the team, that is the most valid criticism.
As I recall, it was reported that Jeff Wilpon is no fan of randolphs, and that Omar went to bat for him. Correct me if I am mistaken, but that is what I remember.
And I agree that he needs to be judged by how he manages the team. I though that that is what people are upset about. he has now introduced an SNY conspiracy and a racial-angle to the equation. which is absolutely ridiculous. I have heard/read on several occasions in various places, the suggestion of Frank Robinson to manage this team. Kind of makes the whole race card thing look silly, no?
Well, there were rumors that lil’ Jeff wanted his job last september which would have been completely understandable following the team’s performance. If true, obviously enough convinced him otherwise, right or wrong.
I did not percieve him suggesting an “SNY conspiracy”, he is saying not to judge his style just on what the cameras show, that there is more. Did he call out SNY for trying to get him fired? The wilpons can do that whenever they want, there is more then enough public sentiment to support it. As far as the race card goes, unfortunately he shouldn’t have alluded to it but if you think its not there somewhere amidst all this criticism you are being a little naive. And I am caucasian.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t scrutinize Randolph’s managing, and that it is without flaw, all this other stuff is just noise though and is ridiculous.
No, it doesn’t.
that’s just illogical.
Just because you have heard/ead that frank robinson might manage this team (i’m sure that’s why he reitred), doesn’t change willie’s point that the way a black or latino manager gets treated in the media may be a bit different becuase they do not fit the casey stengel, vince lomardi role of leader.
“As I recall, it was reported that Jeff Wilpon is no fan of randolphs, and that Omar went to bat for him.”
Was it ever actually quoted by Wilpon? Having it ‘reported’ always needs a grain of salt, especially with the NY Sports media.
I am a caucasian as well. and I could care less if our manager is white, black, hispanic, asian, gay, straight, democrat, republican, libertarian, jewish, christian, hindu, or muslim. give me a break with the race crap. if he wins, nobody cares! bottom line.
and Koko, because you did get the memo does not mean it did not exist. and i don’t recall wilpon ever making a point of refuting the rumors.
But is also doesn’t mean it does exist. . . Get my point? We can’t always believe what we read. As much as it is a reporters job to report the news – it’s also his job to help sell newspapers. Discontent sells papers – most good news doesn’t.
so you’re arguing the ONLY thing a manager does is motivate? that’s kind’ve a ridiculous thing to say. theres all sorts of things a manger does beside screaming at his players and flipping over gatorade.
I have never advocated that screaming or flipping tables was the answer. And a large part of what a manager does is to motivate his team. what else does a manager do? don’t tell me make in-game decisions, because it has been pretty-well documented that willie is terrible at that. so what does that leave?
and you can’t compare torre and willy. because of joe’s jewelry he could never be criticized as severely as willy has.
shutting up is the last thing willy should do. players like beltran and delgado stay quiet and allow the media to turn them into this characture of a lazy latino who would rather be sleeping under a tree than playing baseball. whenever i read commentary from willy i come away thinking that he is an intelligent, competent manager.
When I say willie should shut up, I mean when trying to defend himself. He can toot his horn all day to the media, we don’t buy it. go out and win. that will shut the unhappy fans up.
And you should get out more often if you think Torre wasn’t criticized as severly as willie. Yankee fans were ready to run him out of town for the last 3 years he was there, and that was with them going to the playoffs every year!
We, as fans, all have opinions, but, at the end of the day, who cares what we think?
We’re not Willie’s audience. His audience is the players. He should be who he is, and not care what any of us think.
If he he doesn’t win, the fans who like him won’t be able to save him, and if he wins, the fans who hate him won’t be able to get rid of him.
True to a point. But some of the criticism is so off the wall that you would expect anyone with any pride to try to defend themselves. Clearly, he believes alot of what is written about his relationship and communication with his players is untrue.
I agree with you on that. I don’t have a problem with what he said. My point is that he shouldn’t change just to cater to people’s opinions. Like getting thrown out last night. What would that have accomplished? It’s fruitless to try and appease people who hate you anyway. Just be yourself. I’s either going to be good enough or not.
willy is not terrible at in-game decisions. he’s a decent xs and os guy. i don’t know who the mets could put in his place that would somehow change the character of this team. the point is not that willy is great, it’s that the vast majority of mets wins and losses have nothing to do with the manager. he’s being unjustifiably blamed because the manager is usually who the fans go after when they’re unhappy.
Arm chair managers all think they have the ‘right’ calls without looking at the bigger picture.
And totally agree on your statement on the manager’s affect on games.
Willie stands by his guys, he could chew them out behind close doors, etc we just don’t know. He told Wagner to ’shut up’ for his public comments – like he should have.
People think the grass is always greener on the other side. It’s not. A ‘fiery’ manager means nothing. How are the Yankees, Tigers, etc doing? There is no magic involved.
I particularly like the suggestion that Carter get a shot for the job. This team would shut him out after about 1 week.
Yeah. I also love people clamoring for Bobby V. This is the same guy Mets fans tried to run out of town on about three occasions. And, I loved Bobby back when it wasn’t popular, like ya know, when he was actually here.
really the best part of the article is where willie compares himself to herm edwards and ISIAH THOMAS
really…the herm comparison may be apt, and therefore appropriate (due to the tactical flaws, not color, though)…but, when speakng of leadership and performance, to ever willingly put yourself in the same sentence as Isiah is…unwise
i like how willie also said herm “won a few playoff games.” because that’s an acceptable comparison to a guy who tells us he’s been a winner all his life.
I for one am glad he at least is addressing it. We all know I hate the guy and I still want him gone, but at least he is standing up for himself. At least I can respect him for that.
Now, I still think he needs to go.
1. His in-game strategy is brutal
2. Although he is standing up for himself, it took 150 games, 1 Collapse, and a media frenzy to call for his head to call that team meeting. How about doing that last September?
3. He is stubborn to a fault about certain issues/players.
At this point, anything short of an NL Championship is needed to change my mind.
I agree with 1 and 3 at times.
Yes, if this team does not win the NL I believe he will be gone in 09. That said, if the team stays in contention this year he should keep his job. Mainly because replacing him when the team is at or near the top in the division doesn’t make sense and is a panic move. And because the organization made the decision in October to give it another chance and they should stick to that until it gets to the point where its obvious it won’t get done.
This team will be nasty in the playoffs, I honestly believe that. They will need to fight through all this to win the division though.
The only thing I have a problem with in this is the racial aspect, and whomever brought it up. It was unclear whether race was indirectly alluded to by the reporter, or whether willie just went there on his own. So I’ll reserve judgement unless I can see the entire interview verbatim, but this could just as easily be another reporter spicing up a story.
I agree 100%. There was no need for that. If he honestly has that chip on his shoulder, he shouldn’t. Maybe he wants to be reminded about how fans liked Art Howe. How about Ray Handley? If you under-achieve in this town, the fans will let you know…you could be purple and we would hate you just the same.
Agreed. I can’t believe Willie is using the race card! He mentions how his style is the same as Torre so he is comparing himself to a manager who has four WS wins and made the playoffs 12 years straight! What has Willie accomplished? A loss in the second round of the playoffs….and then a colossal collapse. Race has absolutely nothing to do with the pressure being put on willie.
if willie thinks RACE has something to do with his criticism, and then brings up the tenures of HERM EDWARDS and ISIAH THOMAS as support, then he is absolutely delusional.
Yes Jamie, we don’t know how the question was asked or if he brought it up. I would like to know before I hammer him, but you know how it goes, never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
i don’t give a crap how it was brought up. willie could have said he didn’t believe race had anything to do with it or no comment at all.
besides, you never have all the facts, unless you’re the one reporting the story. do you dismiss every story you’ve ever read because you don’t know exactly how the reporter framed his questions? why read anything at all?
Look, all I’m saying is if he brought it up himself it reeks of a total cop-out excuse because the vast majority of it has nothing to do with it. Thats all I’m saying.
Yes, if asked he probably should have taken the high road and said no, it has nothing to do with it, blah blah blah. But he would not have been being totally honest.
I don’t want to get into a huge discussion on race, but the fact is there are bigots out there that think a minority does not have the “capacity” to manage. Although bringing up Edwards and Thomas certainly didn’t help his case. Randolph can’t do anything right at this time, from motivating his players, using the bullpen, arguing with umpires, or giving silly interviews.
if he honestly believes that race is the reason this town is all over him, and not, say, 76-75 over last 151, or 1-6 the last week of september, then he’d be better off lying. whether he likes it or not, a very big part of his job is managing public perception.
He has been very lacking in the “public perception” component, that is for sure. Right down to his post game comments. And when he takes steps to correct it, he seems to make it worse.
It is very difficult to defend him, thats for sure. I still think this team can win. In fact, I think they will. If not, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.
Man… whole lotta thoughts here…
Its utterly ridiculous for Willie to pull out the race card. I was with him on some things he was saying up to that… He wants to compare himself to Thomas?!? HA!!! go ahead man… Zeke was maybe the worst GM/Coach in the history of sports…
The idea that he should be credited with turning the club around after Howe? Fine… Ill give him that. But then I can turn around and blame him for the worst collapse in the history of the game. I honestly think Omar has way more to do with the turnaround… and Willie’s style had more to do with the collapse. I will never forget the “Champagne will taste sweeter” comment… or the “bored” comment from delgado…
This team has not been responding to Willie. I can deal with loses… nobody goes 162-0 and it is still early… however, the losses this club has had have been very telling… Too many times it seems they are giving up… I see too many clean jerseys at the end of a game.
I dont buy the behind closed doors argument. I judge the team based on the play I see during the games. Not on his post game comments, not anything else… just the way the players play between the lines… I could care less if he throws over tables, etc… I just want to see passionate play from the team I am passionate about.
There is one thing that always pops into my head when it comes to defining leadership. Its a scene from remember the titans.
Bertier: See man, thats the worst attitude I eva heard.
Julius: Attitude reflects leadership, captain.
Lastly, on the booing the players on the first game… we were booing the sorry performance to end our 2007 summer… The idea that we can just forget about that is crazy. Everytime someone hears that I am a met fan they remind me of it. The only way to get us over that, is to win. This weekend was huge, and imo, is the last chance for willie… if this team breaks out, then Willie can keep his job. But if this is just another in a long line of one step forward, one step back… i am just sick of that. I live in Williamsburg Brooklyn, a place where something fun is going on every night of the week… I got better things to do with my time then sit and watch a mediocre baseball club.
I typed up a whole rant about the racial card, and I decided not to post it because I knew it would be misunderstood. Instead, I’ll keep it very simple, and I’m sure it will still be misunderstood and I won’t make any friends here.
I have just about every ethnicity you can think of represented in my family. Same thing with my friends. I’ve seen the ugliness of real racism. It’s ugly to the freaking bone. And I’m very sorry, but I just can’t take it seriously here. We’re talking about a manager of a NY team. He’s getting the same stuff everyone else got before him, and everyone will get it after too. Is it always deserved? No, it’s never always deserved. But it goes with the job, and he has to know that. I don’t like Willie, but let him stay on for the next ten years. All it means is my team is winning.
But like I said, I know all too well what victims of real racism go through on a daily basis. I hope none of them read that column. It would amount to a very big slap in the face.
just as you were afraid that you might be misunderstood, so am I.
I’m not trying to be confrontational, but what is “real racism”?
You want examples? Like a kid riding his bike down the street, and someone throwing a really big rock at him, and then a group of the rock thrower’s buddies throw the bike on top of the kid and turn a garden hose on him while he lies there crying? And the person with the hose is yelling racist remarks the whole time and the rest of his group is standing there laughing until they decide it would be even more fun to join in. That’s pretty real. I was personally involved in that one. Thank God I was the bloody kid under the bike, because I’d rather be that than what the other people were. That’s real racism.
I could go on, but I don’t want to start posting about the personal things that have happened to other people I care about without their approval.
It’s all a lot more ugly than what amounts to a few people booing or posting that a guy sucks at his job as he manages a .500 team and gets paid millions of dollars.
no doubt, that is the really ugly side of racism. unfortunately, there are people in this world that will still tie some guy to the back of a truck and drag him becuase he is black, or tie some guy to a fence to die because he is gay, just like 40 years ago someone would blow up a black church and kill 4 girls simply because it was a black church.
but i don’t racism is as simple or as unfront as those actions. i don’t think racism is any less real becuase it occurs in the way laws are written rather than with chains, with negligence rather than with burning crosses.
and i don’t think willie was saying that booing was racist. I think he was questioning the expectations and presentations of the media, which does have an effect in perpetuating racism
Oh, I get it. We’re all culpable because we all obey laws that are inherently, even unintentionally racially biased. That’s all precisely the same as cross-burning. I see. Therefore, we should have little set-asides and preferences and donations to organizations X, Y and Z to combat the “racism” that we don’t even think we have, and we should refrain from criticizing a black manager because, gosh, if we gave somebody a huge government grant to study how “the media” portrays Willie Randolph, we’d find out that — hey, lo and behold, we’re actually racists!!!
Guess what — it IS less real if it’s unintentional. If it’s not intended, it’s not “racism” by any but the most tortured law school definition.
I don’t think race is a factor. I do think there is a large contingent of Mets fans who never wanted him to be the Manager, because he is identified as a Yankee. And, therefore were already predisposed to blaming him for anything and everything.
there are certainly things I can complain about both Omar and Willie, but, overall, I think they have both done a good job. The big difference is that Omar doesn’t have the misfortune of being identified as a Yankee.
Perhaps willie should accomplish a damn winning streak before he starts mouthing off about race being an issue. He should also be reminded that he has a pretty good contract for being a manager. He needs to show fans that his team can win more than two games in a row if he wants fans off of his back. Winning cures everything and thus far willie has not been a winning manager but rather a .500 manager. He should just shut up
290-237 isn’t .500. At least according to the math I use. Maybe your math is different.
I meant .500 since last June.
that’s right…the only racist overtones I’ve heard from anyone (even here, where there’s been plenty of latino b.s.) has had to do with him being a yankee. Yankee-ist?
ha ha…
and the latino B.S. doesn’t make you at all suspicious?
in terms of posters critical of willie? no, not really. the dif is that (in re latino b.s.) I’ve read plenty of posts where suspicion is unnecessary, because it’s right there in black and white (or 1’s and 0’s). I’ve never read, heard, nor been able to infer any racist context whatsoever in terms of fans’ appraisal of willie. He’s plenty flawed, and those flaws are what I’ve seen discussed (or blown up, or disregarded, etc), never something like “well, you know he doesn’t have any fire becasue their people are laid back, if ya get what I’m sayin!”…of which there has certainly been posted here re latinos.
I haven’t either. And the overwhelming majority of willie criticism I am certain is not racially motivated, it is based on the team’s perfomance. He should have kept his mouth shut.
That said, could those who may be biased against latinos also have similar bias agianst Randolph?
Just food for thought, thats all.
Reyes hits well = Reyes is playing with “intensity”
Reyes doesnt hit = Willie’s fault
Reyes doesnt hit for a week = Willie and omar’s fault
have I summed up the Metsblog message boards?
no.
reyes playing with a good attitude = good leadership
reyes playing with poor attuitude = poor leadership being given to a young man
So, when Reyes was playing with a good attitude in 2006, Willie was a good leader? And then he suddenly became a bad leader and caused Reyes to have a bad attitude? OK, I got it now.
What I like even more is those post that say that Willie is to blame for Reyes doing poorly because he benched him last summer. How would that make up for him doing well in some series?
when reyes was playing well in 2006, yes… willies leadership was good. What he was saying was getting to the team.
however, as things changed… willie failed to adapt. it led to players playing without passion… tuning him out.
just because someone was right 2 years ago, doesnt make them right now. Just because someone was a good leader 2 years ago doesnt make them a good leader now… the best of the best adjust… something i have never seen willie do.
You hit the nail on the head. Had Wright or Church been thrown out at home by Abreu in the eighth inning, it would have been Willie’s fault also.
no…i dont think so…
this is painting all that feel willie should be fired as irrational.
Its not one play that makes or breaks these feelings. Its the lack of stragey in game… lack of passion too many times… so many other things.
comments like these are just silly…
most of the people that want a new manager point to the record since last year… while most who want to keep him say it is too early… which group is the shortsighted one there?
Time will tell. It could go either way at this point, no use arguing about it.
But we still will.
furthermore, i loved the play this past weekend and hope it keeps up… but I still want willie fired because I think he is a poor manager.
I’m all for keeping Willie if this team plays to its ability. But blind supports of him,, Realize that if he was doing such a great job then The Wilpons and Omar would not of put him on notice. He’s currently fighting for his job.
Agreed, and rightfully so. But the fans should give it a chance, if he doesn’t get it done he is gone. They could be in 1st place next week, they could get Pedro back soon, and they can’t possibly hit this badly for too much longer.
But Randolph/Peterson/Omar have to stabilize the bullpen, and willie has to use it correctly. If so, there could be some good times ahead in 07.
08. 07 sucked the big one.
Starter goes 7 or more inning = good job by Omar
Starter goes 6 or less inning = bad job by Omar
what are you talking about? who says that?
it’s a general summorization of all the over-analyzing from fans these days……. junior
or is it Indiana?
nice,,,
So true; I wish we can archive these posts to use as evidence.
and also realize if the Mets do not make the playoffs this season.. ITS over for Willie,, he’s gone.. So he has two jobs to do.. One is to get this team to the playoffs and the other is public opinion. He’s fired if he doesn’t do both. Now if he get us to a World Series then I don’t think The wilpons will give two sh!ts if the fans like him or not.
and I won’t care either. If he can get these guys to a NLCS or WS then I will drink the kool-aid as well
if he gets to the World Series, even I may like him. ;-)
That’s basically it for willie. Take us to a WS or get fired….
I disagree. I believe that the wilpons are very sensitive to the fans opinion. At least that is what has been reported, although I suppose we are not to believe anything reported. But these guys are opening a brand new stadium next year and expect us fans to spend our money to come watch their team. they are cognizant of what will happen if their fan base is not happy.
World Series or bust for willie.
Unfortunately, the “fans” won’t be able to afford the new stadium. And the Corporate seats will be filled for the first 2 years even if they have dancing hippos in the lineup.
Hahahahah… I just pictured Jose Reyes standing between 2 hippos salsa dancing
Can’t wait for Merengue night….
Sounds like Joe Morgan’s comment about short stops.
I see what your saying and agree. But I do think the fan base will turn in his favor if he gets these guys playing good baseball day in day out
this article is exactly right on.
all you dime store psychoanalysts take note.
and all you who want a big fool pathetic baby like pinella, you can always watch the cubs with jerry.
Willie gets screwed on calls like Beltran’s and Delgado’s because there is no fear of reprisal or of being embarrassed by Willie because he doesn’t want to get out of comfort zone.
The umps flipped the call because Jeter and Damon were upset and flailing their arms over the call…..there is no fear factor from getting an earful from EZ Willie
kjmcc0729: I guess the only thing worse than losing a 7 game playoff series to an 83 win team would be losing one to an 82 win team. Let’s see, anybody else ever do that? Oh yeah, some guy named Sparky Anderson, who went on to win three world series and be elected to the Hall of Fame. The 82 win team that beat him? The Mets, of course.
Sorry, i don’t get your point. are you suggesting that willie is a HOF manager?
After 3 years? That would be dumb. As is saying that losing a 7 game playoff series (to a team that went on the win the World Series, I remind you) is hardly a mark of a bad manager or even a bad team. Bobby Cox lost a lot of playoff series (only one World Series), and he is a Hall of Fame manager. Losing one series does not mark a career of constitute a true measure of a manager.
bobby cox won the NL east how many years in a row?? losing one series that they should have won, presiding over a collapse of biblical proportions, and leading a lifeless, apathetic bunch of underachievers is the mark of a bad manager.
Yeah Willie, we’re all racist thats why we want you gone right? And you wern’t hired all those years because you were black not because they thought you wouldn’t make a good manager. It’s all the white mans fault that Herm Edwards sucked as a coach. Oh and Willie what cololr was Art Howe? And what color was Rich Kotie?It’s all because you’re black…what a crock of BS.
From the article,
Randolph excluded Ozzie Guillen from the conversation, but wanted to know why the traits often admired in the calm, cool and collected likes of Joe Torre are portrayed as flaws in Torre’s former third base coach.
“Is it racial?” Randolph asked. “Huh? It smells a little bit.”
Asked directly if he believes black managers are held to different standards than their white counterparts, Randolph said: “I don’t know how to put my finger on it, but I think there’s something there. Herman Edwards did pretty well here and he won a couple of playoff [games], and they were pretty hard on Herm. Isiah [Thomas] didn’t do a great job, but they beat up Isiah pretty good. … I don’t know if people are used to a certain figurehead. There’s something weird about it.
“I think it’s very important … that I handle myself in a way that the [African-American managers] coming behind me will get the opportunities, too … .”
Willie how about if you handle yourself as a maqnager that knows what the hell he’s doing and leave your color at home?
Yeah Willie its all the fans fault and now they’re racist too. I suggest you don’t let them in Shea anymore that’ll show or better yet just let in African -Americans. I’m sure they won’t boo boring lifeless play and guys that can’t run out balls in play.
Don’t get us started on Isiah Thomas, Willie. He almost ruined the Knicks franchise, and supposedly sexually harassed a coworker.
I don’t care about the color of skin. I care about the mentality, personality and the drive for excellence that makes one a great manager.
So now Willie is blaming SNY and “racist” Mets fans?
Those same racist Mets fans who are just dying to do a Jose-JoseJose! chant if the guy does something good?
It’s time for him to get shown the door.
He was retained after THE WORST COLLAPSE IN BASEBALL HISTORY.
He has no beef to complain about anything, ever again.
He’s not mentally fit enough to manage this team.
Can’t take the heat, get the f**k out of the kitchen
Willie is quite the lightning rod. I will give the man one thing – no fan is ever in the middle when it comes to Willie. You either sip the kool aid and love the guy, or you hate him like he beat up your little brother for his lunch money.
I could care less for the guy as long as the Mets stay winning ballgames. He can keep his precious job, make sure that he doesn’t have to face not feeding his family and the big bad Met fans trying to take away his livelihood (because 1.4 million last year and 2 million this year really doesn’t buy what it used to – even though most of us would love to live in that neigborhood, Willie is on the low end when it comes to manager’s salaries…boo hoo).
Willie, just STFU and win. That’s all anybody here is asking you to do. Don’t act like you haven’t been in NYC before and this is your first dance….win, and this fan base will gladly STFU. Otherwise, you are gonna get the same treatment that every other coach gets when his team is as underachieving as badly as yours is. Some of us will gladly carry you down Canyon of Heroes on our shoulders as long as you are holding the World Championship trophy. NYC is a results based town. This ain’t St. Louis or some small market town, so don’t act like “Oh, everybody is out to get me.” All the fans care about is results. If the manager isn’t getting results, then what the hell do we need you for? What exactly are you bringing to the table? We can go .500 with any other schlub at the helm of a team this talented, but we don’t want .500, We want excellence.
Welcome to New York City.
Just win, baby.
I am a die hard Mets fan but I have had enough of the “worst collapse in baseball history.” Let it go. Talk about a cancer–the mentality that attaches itself to that and can’t move past it helps NO ONE! Certainly not the 2008 Mets.
There is no doubt that NY fans are equal opportunity bashers of anyone who appears to fail; however, anyone who denies that there is racism in the culture is really clueless. I am white and for much of my childhood had to combat the stupid racist attitudes of other white people who called me “nigger lover.” I have black cousins on both sides of my family and I know what they’ve had to put up with. So stop acting like a black man who mentions that race might enter into people’s feelings is just whining or playing the race card. If you don’t know what he’s talking about you’re probably not black.
“If you don’t know what he’s talking about you’re probably not black.”
I’ve talked about this with a number of people today, and guess what, you’re wrong. Now before you go after me, I made a post pretty similar to yours early in the day, and you are absolutely right when you talk about what people you care about have had to put up with, I’ve been there too with much of my own family.
But I talk baseball with my friends and family all the time, and this came up a lot today. Nobody is buying it.
Or as my own cousin put it today, and he happens to be black (it’s important to the conversation here or I wouldn’t say it): “Sometimes people just don’t like me because they think I’m an *******.” You can use your imagination and figure out what he said.
Sometimes people just don’t have a connection with you, and it’s not always as easy as looking in the mirror and saying it’s because of the race of the person looking back. A lot of the time they just don’t like you for who you are, not what you are, but that can be a lot harder to own up to sometimes.
MH, what culture are you talking about? we are having a baseball discussion, specifically whether the fans or media are tougher on willie because of his race. we are not having a discussion about race relations in society. i don’t like willie as our manager, black, white, red, purple or yellow.
@kjmcc0729
The issue of race was on the table in several posts…quotes in which Willie apparently hinted that the enmity he feels directed toward him may have a racial component—he didn’t say it was true of all of his critics or of all mets fans and I doubt that he meant it was.
The man said he felt that black managers are held to a different standard. If he says he feels that way then he feels that way. You can argue whether it’s true but you cannot argue about what the man feels. You also cannot argue that he feels additional pressure being black as concerns whether other black people will be given opportunities.
@kjmcc0729
How do you discuss the question of whether the fans and media are harder on Willie because of his race without discussing racism?
willie was black in 2006 wasn’t he? and for the first several months of 2007, no? we did not have an issue with his color than, did we? is it now that his team has underperformed that we realized that he was black and have treated him unfairly?
is aaron heilman black? hispanic? asian? how about schowenweiss? they get booed and criticized at this point more than most on the team, don’t they?
the fact that he perceives himself as being held to a different standard underscores his delusion. he is being held to the same standard any NY manager is held to. win games! he is not be unfairly targeted because he is black, he is being criticized for his performance.
willie is not responsible for assuring that future black managers get an opportunity to manage. nobody is saying fire him because of his race.
And Doc and Straw are black, and no matter how many times they’ve screwed up, EVERYONE always wants them to get better and most of us like to see them get new opportunities to get back on track.
I’ve never heard a single fan dismiss those guys, even after they went to the Yankees and had their ups and downs with them. We always welcome them home. Most of us anyway.
Everyone can try this. Close your eyes for a second and think five thoughts about each of those guys. If you’re like me, the color of their skin never came into your mind.
NY sports fans embrace winners at a level that is almost uncomfortable. We fall in love with these guys. Willie was a winner his whole life as a player, but people (right or wrong) tend not to see that same guy in our manager. If they did, he would be embraced to the point where he would wish people would leave him alone and stop kissing his behind. He could have that like any other winner can in this town. We don’t care what they look like.
kjmcc0729
Subtle, very subtle. White players are booed and white managers are criticized and fired therefore race cannot possibly enter into any discussion. Why are you taking this personally? I did not suggest YOU were racist in your desire to fire him. As a person who is nearly the same age as Willie and knows the world he has lived in most of his life, I am saying it is not hard for me to understand that he might feel SOME people are less patient with him than they might be with a white manager with a similar record over the past few years. Sorry. I didn’t realize– he apparently is the main person who is responsible for the COLLAPSE. Was he pitching out of the bullpen?
the whole race argument is ridiculous. it does not matter to me, or most of the people heard from, whether our manager is black, white, hispanic or otherwise. and i do take it personally. willie suggests that race is a factor in the fans and media’s disdain for him.
Art Howe, who is one of the whitest men i have ever seen, lasted 2 years here with a much less talented team, jeff torborg 1 year, dallas green 3 years. quite frankly i could go on, but what is the point.
there are those that would believe that others are responsible for their fortunes, good or bad, while others accept that they contribute to their own successes or failures. if willie ends up losing his job it is not because of the color of his skin, but rather his inability to get the job done.
—–Why are you taking this personally—–
I dunno, but someone who gets accused of racism probably will take things a wee bit personally.
But if anyone wants to argue that race played a major factor in his being hired in the first place, well I’m SURE that’s out of bounds and racist, yes?
The pro- and con-willie argument has its merits. I don’t think anyone is wrong in expressing their feeling of willie being fired or Willie feeling like race plays a part in how he is perceived.
(his in-game aptitude was questioned before he managed one game for the Mets, whether that is racial or not can be debated)
But I have seen the argument that Willie should just shut up and win. The question is asked “what has Willie won?” Yet Buck Showalter and Bobby Valentine has as many world series rings as Willie does. It can be argued that Bobby Cox has not helped the Atlanta Braves reach their potential because they were the most talented team in 1990’s and won only one World Series.
If Cox had managed in NY he would have been fired for losing to the 1996 Yankees. Cox had the benefit of possibly that greatest starting rotation in history. Did he maximize their talent?
The Braves are diminished now but always stay in the race until september. The ‘06 and ‘07 Braves finished a combined 23 games back. No manager in baseball would survive those numbers.
Cox, having won 12 division titles in what was possibly the worst division in baseball for many years, is a bad example to compare Randolph to. Lets use Bobby Valentine and Showalter, the two likely candidates to replace Randolph if he is fired after this season. Both are successful managers, Valentine is 45 games over .500 in his career. Showalter is 49 games over for his. Both very good percentages.
However, Willie Randolph is 53 games over .500 for his career. A better percentage in four years managing an mlb team. Only 7 current MLB managers have a better win pct. than Randolph. Gardenhire, Cox, Torre, Baker, Pinella, LaRussa, and Charlie Manuel.
In just 4 years Randolph has the second highest win pct of any mets managers in met history. Many have said that Willie has not gotten enough out of the talent he has. Davey Johnson is the best manager, by wins, in met history. Johnson had an infinitely more talented team than Randolph. Johnson had a pitching staffs equal or better than the mid 1990’s Braves. Those Met teams ruled baseball and set the standard of pitching, pitching and more pitching. Yet Johnson was run out of town because he failed to win more with the talent he had.
The firing of Johnson put the mets in a tailspin that lasted six years. How many Met fans that called for Johnsons head would like to reverse that? There was a perception that fan favorite Bud Harrelson could inspire this team because Johnson had lost his players. Brilliant move by the Mets on that one.
Here is what I think. Firing a manager is not so cut and dry. The hatred of Willie Randolph, blinds Met fans sight into the future. The Mets where still the most talented team in baseball from 1991-1993 yet were worse than they were while Johnson was manager. It is tough to find the “right” guy. Randolph has had more success here than any manager since davey Johnson so he can’t be a totally “wrong” fit.
When there is a formula produces winning, albeit not at the rate we would like, that formula needs to stay until it has run its full course. There is no way to determine what affect a new manger would have on this team.
If Willie is fired and Wally Backman is hired then what good would that do? If Willie is fired and a Pinella or Scioscia type isn’t available to replace him then what are you doing?
Based on the “what has he won” argument. There is currently no one available that has “won” more than Randolph to warrant his termination as Met manager.
I don’t trust the Met brass. Time and time again they have used their “feelings” and fan perception to make changes to the Mets.
Firing davey Johnson and Bobby Valentine was terrible decisions. both times the Met brass took the fans “temperature” to make these moves. The Mets are better off leaving Randolph alone and hiring an “in-game strategist” as a bench coach to appease the fans.
The history of this team is not littered with smart managerial choices. Firing Randolph may do more long-term damage to the core talent that he has managed. Reyes is very fragile. Would he take Willie’s firing personally like he has the collaspe? these are the questions that need to be addressed before we go and fire Randolph.
buck and bobby v the likely replacements? don’t know about that. and i hardly believe that firing willie would set this team back 6 years. this is the free agent era, big difference from 20 years ago.
Buck and Bobby V have been talked about as well as Wally Backman and Jerry Manuel.
I’m not saying the Mets will lose 6 years. What I’m saying is this; if you don’t bring in a high-level manager to replace Willie, then there is no reason to believe that the team will win more.
Like I said after Johnson was fired, the Mets were still the most talented team in baseball. They even brought in high priced free-agents like Bonilla, Vince Coleman, Frank Viola and Brett Saberhagen. Yet the team stunk.
Removing Randolph without a viable candidate is foolish and will not solve anything.
Met Damage…excellent analysis. Willie’s teams have indeed had a lot of success. The Mets were lousy before Willie arrived. He came in with the persona of a person who had had success, he won early on and created very high expectations…Too bad for everyone. Suddenly you go from enjoying the first flush of success to feeling like the worst failures in the world after a season in which you led your division almost the whole way….
The upshot is that when the team is struggling this year, even though they are near the top of their division, many Mets fans feel a need to make someone accountable for the misery they felt at the end of last season. Willie’s the easiest target.
“The Mets were lousy before Willie arrived. He came in with the persona of a person who had had success, he won early on and created very high expectations”
He came in with Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran. And Wright and Reyes making great strides. A year later he had Billy Wagner to replace Braden Looper and Carlos Delgado to replace Doug Mientkiewicz.
So if Willie came around in 2004 they would have won because he would have come in with a persona of success?
Not likely.
“So if Willie came around in 2004 they would have won because he would have come in with a persona of success?
Not likely.”
I did not say Willie came in alone nor did I say that his persona led to the success. He was clearly part of the change in culture that the Mets were striving for. ..part of that had to do with IMAGE. ..PERCEPTION. The expectation was that his players would respect him and take him seriously given his association with successful teams and his success as a player. His team had a winning record after his first season and came within one hit of going to the world series the next season. That was my point…I’ll try not to put words in your mouth or not to assume you’re an idiot if you can manage the same with me.
“I’ll try not to put words in your mouth or not to assume you’re an idiot if you can manage the same with me.”
Thanks. It’s always people like you who break out words like “idiot”. You know, actual idiots.
“The Mets were lousy before Willie arrived. He came in with the persona of a person who had had success, he won early on and created very high expectations”
There’s the whole quote.
“I did not say Willie came in alone nor did I say that his persona led to the success.”
So yeah, you did. Idiot.
I was not suggesting you were an idiot. I do think you misconstrued my words with the intention of making my point sound idiotic.
OK, then you’re not an idiot. And if you read my other posts you’ll know I hate the name-calling around here. So I just figured since you broke the word out I would run with it. But let’s be serious. Willie came along at a time when the Mets decided to spend money. They spent money on Willie, and they spent money on players. If his persona had anything to do with making these guys win, they should not have fell apart at the end of last year. A manager is almost never as good as he looks on his best day, and almost never as bad as he looks on his worst. I gave Willie all the credit in the world when he was a player. Now I give it to the guys on the field.
“If his persona had anything to do with making these guys win, they should not have fell apart at the end of last year.”
Or fallen apart. Now I’ll call myself an idiot.
As for my quote, try looking at the entire entry if you have any interest in engaging me substantively. My point is that early success–whether Willie contributed to it or not—created high expectations. The assumption was that the Mets would advance further each year—not taking into account a whole range of factors that influence what actually happens…I think last years’ team succeeded beyond what should reasonably have been expected of them considering that Pedro was out most of the year, so was Alou, Sanchez never pitched, Valentin was hurt, Easley was hurt… Delgado had a subpar year. Did anyone have any reason to expect 15 wins each out of Maine and Perez? They played above their heads most of the year and weren’t able to sustain it at the end…the bull pen was shot by the end and that wasn’t Willie’s fault.
Ok. I see my post appears to ignore your change in tone. I was writing in response to the earlier posts. Sorry. Anyway. My appeal really is to suggest folks take a deep breath and remember we’ve got some nice players and the team will hopefully be whole soon and the weather will be warmer and we’re right in the thick of the race.. which afterall has barely started..