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Had the season ended on May 21, 2007, the Phillies, Rockies, D’Backs and Cubs, all of whom eventually did make the playoffs, would not have made the playoffs.
The Phillies were .500 and in third place, the Cubs were two games under .500 and in third place, the D’Backs were 25–21 and a half-game back and the Rockies were nine games below .500 and in last place.
…this has nothing to do with the Mets, except to say we still have a lot of baseball yet to watch…
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just have to try to keep remembering that
lets go mets
lets go mets
lets go mets
Couldn’t agree more. We have time on our side…..for now.
But the people don’t want baseball. They want the endless schadenfreude over firing WIllie Randolph, only to bring in an even worse former Yankee-bench-coach-turned-manager, Lee Mazzilli!
“schadenfreude”. wow, impressive.
Mazz would be a huge mistake. As would Carter, Bowa, etc.
The “fiery guy” notion is ridiculous. But I do think this has become about willie and that has to end. Just give it to Manuel at this point and let the players try to move on.
In order to move on it has to be someone that was not associated with last year.
I agree. If your gonna start over dont bring someone that was involved with last year but rather someone that can bring fresh air and a new perspective on how to utilize and get the best out of the players here.
Haha. Well put. :smile:
No, “the people” want baseball — winning baseball — and not a soap opera. I take no pleasure in Willie’s demise, believe me. (Nor do I want Mazzilli. I really doubt he’s the consensus choice among fans.) I think we have enough data now to know that the Mets are not going to win with Randolph.
The Mets are not going to win it all with the current team — Randolph or no Randolph. They may make the postseason, but a WS title is highly unlikely.
They need to change the cast of characters before you’ll see a final act in the WS.
I know you’ll disagree and say a good manager can motivate the team to a higher level, but I don’t think that’s the case with the core of this team.
So in advance of your disagreement, lets just agree to disagree. :smile:
I just think people go through a lot of gymnastics to rationalize keeping Randolph. Why? Cut this guy, cut that guy, etc., and these players are not wealthy — it’s their lives, their dreams. But with Willie, it’s one chance after another.
Why? Because Willie has little impact on how the team performs on the field. That’s why.
Yes, I know you disagree but many of us believe it’s almost all the players’ fault here.
Personally, I won’t be heartbroken to see Willie go … but he’s not the main cause of the team’s malaise. As I said before, it’s like having leaky windows on your home and you go out and buy a new front door. What good does that do?
If the manager has little effect on the team, then you shouldn’t care whether he stays or goes. Why bother defending him so vociferously?
Incidentally, I think the Beaniac “stand here please, Art” view of managing is a bit of a relic.
Because …
1) The misplaced blame shouldn’t cost a decent man his job when it doesn’t warrant it. That goes for anyone.
2) It covers up what’s really wrong with the team, serving to give the owners an excuse for not tackling the real issues. They’ll say: “See, we fired the manager … we are doing something.”
3) It delays fixing what’s really wrong with the team.
IOW, the leaky windows are still there, letting in the cold air … and you’ve just spent a little fortune and a lot of effort buying and replacing your new front door. So when you finally realize the window needs to be replaced, you’re got less money and energy left over to get the job done. In the meantime, your heating bills are still abnormally high.
Incidentally, I think the Beaniac “stand here please, Art” view of managing is a bit of a relic.
What do you mean by a bit of a relic? It’s working successfully in Boston right now.
This is kind of laughable. How precisely does “costing a decent man his job” (please. . . . He’s set for life) delay “fixing what’s really wrong with the team”? Are you suggesting that the Mets should have a fire sale? Should they bring up certain minor leaguers? What should the front office do, and how does keeping Willie facilitate it?
Say what you will about Francona, but he is a tough guy, and would not stand for complacency.
And TMU, your response is laughable.
Wilie was set for life before the job. You think he wants to get fired? Please. No amount of money would mitigate the damage that comes from getting fired mid-season from a ML managerial job.
No, I’m not suggesting they have a fire sale. But there are problems on the team that need to be addressed soon — Heilman, Wise, Delgado, the continued struggles of Sanchez and Feliciano, and one other decent starter. I don’t think Vargas is going to cut it.
If Delgado doesn’t turn around soon, consider eating his contract. It’s a sunk cost. And use Carp, Evans or Murphy there. Right now, they can trade and send Heilman to the minors as a starter and call up Muniz. If Heilman succeeds, they might have a more viable option than Vargas. (And don’t count on Pedro coming back soon or being back for long.) If Heilman doesn’t succeed, then no problem. Put him back in the pen or trade him.
And after the season’s over, there are other issues that need to be addressed. And that means they may have to consider firing Omar if they want to get them right. But Willie may be used as a smokescreen to hide the real issues and delay fixing them.
Say what you will about Francona, but he is a tough guy, and would not stand for complacency.
How did that work for the Red Sox in 2006? Or the Philly teams he managed? I guess when the talent level on the teams he manages drops, so does his toughness.
Ooh — comment eaten by Metsblog . . .and no harshness. Anyway, point was, I don’t think that Omar is helped by losing Willie early . . . unless the team actually turns it around, in which case we’re all smiles. Worse would be if they go through the year, THEN let go of Willie. Omar has successfully ridden out a crappy year.
Otherwise, Delgado, yeah — cut him. Heilman to the rotation is absolutely not going to happen on this team. I used to like the idea, but I just can’t see it happening, nor do I think that it has anything to do with whether Willie stays or goes. Sad to say, right now, the guy needs a change of scene.
First off, I believe this is all academic as Willie will likely not be fired before the end of the season and the fates of Omar and Willie might be entwined together. So, at the end of the season, they both go or both stay. It appears this is the way Jeff Wilpon is operating.
However, hypothetically, Omar can tell the Wilpons that they need an interim manager. They get the interim manager and if the team doesn’t do well, he tells Jeff a permanent manager who he has in mind will make the difference. In addition, the firing of Willie may also serve to cover up a lack of player moves that do need to be made — some soon, and some after the season ends.
And I’m not advocating Heilman to the rotation now. He couldn’t do it anyway now as he’s not stretched out. Just get him out of the bullpen. Bring up Muniz. Tell Heilman to go down to NO as a starter. If he fails, he goes back into the bullpen at NO or back up to the Mets bullpen … or they trade him. And if he succeeds? Then he stays in the NO rotation till there is a vacancy in the ML rotation due to injury OR they trade him. There is no downside here. But just do something. He’s clearly unhappy and not producing now. His continued presence is hurting the team. Muniz can do better right now.
Weren’t the Philly fans calling for CM’s head last year? I think they were and the Phils were sucking air but then they turned it on, they kept on course, they kept their manager and became unified for the stretch run. They weren’t great, but they stayed together.
I don’t like comparing any team I like to a Philadelphia team, but there’s got to be a lesson there.
We are all aware of this, but it doesn’t change the conversation.
It didn’t change the outcome last season either.
Sorry.
the thing is, NOTHING that happens this season, be it finishing in last place or winning the world series, will change the outcome from last season. Sorry.
Everyone wants a winning team, obviously, and we’re quite inconsistent right now, but there IS plenty of baseball left, and all we can really do is continue to watch and talk baseball. Giving up to me is not an option.
Thank you darkstar. Last season is over. You can justify that very simply by compairing the standings to last year and where we were at. Different year…Different outcome
“we are all aware of this”
I really don’t think that’s true at all…
I applaud the optimism… but it is probably reaching and grasping for straws at this point. Looking for anything and everything at this point. Which is understandable but probably wishful thinking with this group. A shake up must come with a change at the helm and changing a few players faces on the field aswell.
Is the optimism any different than the grand assumption that firing Randolph will solve the problem.
And the Phillies won even with Charlie Manuel as their manager. He’s worse than Willie.
Loll thanks matt for the optimism. I hear ya that we got alot of time still left to fix the problem and get better. We are not out of it yet people. We just need to identify and fix problems that are glaring at us right now and we are right back on this thing. LGM
The Phillies never lacked the effort at all times on the field for Charlie even if he clueless. We have seen to many times under Willie there be a lack of effort given at times. That is on the manager.
Did you see the begining of last season for the Phillies? There fans were saying the same thing, that they played without heart and Maunel was bringing down the team.
grass is always greener on that other side thereal…
That is your impression. I believe the players are trying, they are playing poorly and it appears as lack of effort.
I don’t know what it is, last september, willie, the pressure to win, who knows. But if it were actually lack of effort, willie would have been gone long ago.
That said, willie has sealed his fate, sadly.
yep, and then he went berserk and tried to fight a reporter.
willie went berserk and whined to a reporter.
Or the players….
And that’s precisely why something needs to be done now, before it’s too late. Or we’ll “it’s still early” ourselves right the f— out of things.
What did those teams do last year?
What did the Phillies do? Underachieved and had to play to superhuman levels to eek into the playoffs with under 90 wins.
I have a feeling we will all be laughing about their crummy start at the end of the season. The summer is a LONG time, and the Mets can still distinguish themselves (thanks in part to the mediocre play of the rest of the division)
Lets Go Mets!!!
I haven’t looked at it that way. If you think about it, last year, the Mets wasted so many opportunities to put the division away and it bit them in the ass. Could it be karma? I hope so.
To me, I faulted willie more for that then their play in September which was just a calamity of events.
I think the Mets will either distinguish themselves over the summer, or the division will be a crap-shoot until the last week or so of the season. No one really seems to be distinguishing themselves, and while we are stuck at .500 so are the Phillies and Braves for the most part.
Remain positive everyone, at least the Mets have the pieces to be succesful, it wasnt too long ago that the team didnt even have that…
I like the way you think man. I’m with you.
good job jaded. That kind of logic however is lost on alot of fans. We are 1/4 into the season with alot of games still left to play. Theres still a chance
Yup…I think 2006 really skewed expectations of A LOT of people, particularly everyone who jumped on the bandwagon, that couldn’t tell you the relation between Grant Roberts and Tony Tarrasco (WOW..It kinda hurt just typing that).
Its just that seeing where this franchise has been, and where it is now, in terms of talent, there is no reason to expect the same kind of play we had 4-5 years ago, and that, I think, is the frustrating part.
YA GOTTA BELIEVE!
I think “I Wanna Believe” is more fitting.
and who had the best record in the NL at that point last year, and didn’t make the playoffs?
sorry, i do understand the rah-rah “anything can happen” optimism (and frankly i wish i had the sort of positive disposition matt and several of the other writers here appear to have) but to me it’s just so much more relevant that all those comeback came at this team’s expense, a team that is largely unchanged and is playing about the same.
i take more comfort in “hey, it’s just baseball” than “anything can happen.”
Than why are you so keen on firing Willie? Do you not think the team is capable of winning a mediocre division?
There is a bit of hypocrisy on this site. Willie is either holding them back, or he is not. If he is not, than why call for his head?
because i don’t know how much he is responsible for this team’s mediocrity and the only way to find out is to fire him.
and I think Omar and Jeff are gradually coming to that same conclusion. I thought it would be later, but it is looking like sooner every day.
jeff is coming to this conclusion. omar wants to keep his deflector shield.
Matt – I have been trying to think like that too and yes, this is generally way too early to hit the panic button.
But the fact that we’ve watched the team play in this same unfocused, inconsistent, and often lazy fashion for a full year now dampens my hope that they will turn it around and make the playoffs. But hey, ya gotta believe.
But thay are better than last Setember, in my opinion. Although that sounds stupid given their play.
Santana, Church and Scheider have given them more than they had.
RPS, thats part of what is irking me though
They do have an overall better team, but they still are just mulling along at .500
they were 28-15 at this day last year I think….ugh can you imagine if we were doing that well this yeaR?
Agreed, and although I supported willie I think he has now become an obstacle for turning it around.
But I think they are capable. The marlins are in first after all.
The Phillies have this ability to always make you think they are going to come back and win. The 06 Mets had this but lost it. Now I am sure the 08 Mets want to win but it always seems like the Phillies want to win more. I would like to see when the Phillies turned their season around last year. I am guessing it was in early June when they swept us.
Looks like @ July 20th, they were .500 and went on a win streak and didnt bunch up too many losses afterwards.
Delgado attributed last year’s malaise on “confidence.” I think most Mets fans had the same disease for most of the season. The feeling that the Mets truly had the best talent in the division, probably of the entire league, and they’d be all right in the long run. Well, the long run ran out, and only the thick and dull among us would need more games in 2008 to prove this point: this collective Mets team is gutless and heartless. They will not run through a brick wall for this manager, nor does this manager demand anything near that. This is a cheap tent team, ready to fold at every opportunity, and it’s insanity to keep expecting a change without making a change. You can’t fire the players mid-season, Omar, but as each game passes, you are showing how thick and dull you really are.
This is what I was trying to explore below, because I feel the same way. If “the Phillies have this ability to always make you think they are going to come back and win” and “it always seems like the Phillies want to win more,” why are they only ahead of us by one game?
Mix their fire with our percieved talent, you have a hell of a team!
Your optimism is commendable, Matt.
But you can’t expect most Mets fans to subscribe to that. Did the Rockies, Diamondbacks, Cubs or Phillies pull of the worst regular-season collapse the year before??
C’mon…
No, but the Phillies got swept by the Rockies and won the division literally on the last day of the season….. nothing I would be too proud of in the big scheme of things.
good point. It took them playing astronomical ball to catch up and slip into the playoffs. Remeber that team was not dominating anything but rather they had a good run at the right time. The proof of course is them exiting in the first round of course. These are the ups and downs of a season. Still go a whole lot more of this to come folks.
The Phillies were a decent team last year in a tight division and something clicked at the right time. The Mets are a decent team this year in a tight division, something needs to click for them to win the division. They need to figure that out before its too late.
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!
Every game is a microcosm of the season. So when the Mets were down 4-0 in the nightcap last night, there was plenty of time left in that game, but have the Mets inspired any confidence that they might come back?
The question is not whether they can win this mathematically – of course they can. It’s whether they have the will to do it.
Yes on the math part, and no on the heart part. Something needs to happen………………….
If the season ended today, the Mets would not be in the playoffs. If the season ended in August, they would not be in the playoffs. When it ends in October, they will not be in the playoffs. But I hope I am wrong.
Also, if a frog had wings it would not bump its ass on the ground when it hops.
Our perception as Met fans is inescapably tainted by the collapse. It has gotten to the point that every single loss is reminiscent of the collapse, at least per the majority of the comments on this blog. This is unfair to the extent that the greatest baseball teams of all time still lose, still have losing streaks, still lose to mediocre pitchers on poor teams. But it is fair to the extent that there was no accountability following the collapse.
As has been noted many times this week, perception is all…
The Phillies are seen as having “heart” and “fight” and “come back” from losing. They are one game ahead of the “lifeless” “paycheck collecting” “lay down and die Mets.” The Braves “can’t stop hitting” and they are one game ahead of the “no momentum” Mets.
Braves fans and especially Phillies fans are dealing with the same ups and downs and wins and losses and record as us, but without the collapse, their fanbase is not in utter dismay like ours is.
Lets face it, the Mets, Phillies, and Braves are comparable teams. We have the edge on pitching and they have the edge on hitting. Our records reflect that…they are all within 1 game! Anyone who thought we were running away with this division wasn’t looking at our lineup objectively and thought we could simply outpitch our way to the playoffs.
The Marlins…I have no explanation for.
The Phillies have come back late in games this season. Even when the Phillies lose they show fight. For example last week when Myers gave up 8 early runs to the Braves, the Phillies fought back and had Victorino up as the winning run. Can you name one win this season when the Mets were down 2 runs after the 7th inning and came back to win the game? Other than the Sunday night game at Philly I cannot remember this team even coming back from 3 or more runs to tie the game.
No, you are absolutely right, but what does it amount to? If the Phillies have this great “fight” and “come back ability” and the Mets don’t, why are they only ahead by one game?
It is objectively true that the Phillies have had come back wins and the Mets have not (in my recollection).
I would rather root for a team that has 100 solid wins and no “comeback wins” than team with “fight” and 50 comeback wins for a total of 85 wins.
Granted, the Mets are far, far away from being a 100 win team.
According to our standings, the Mets are a game ahead of the Phillies.
Right on! Lets take a look around from the apparent doom and gloom outlook on the team and see that NOBODY is running away from this thing. Everyone knew this year was going to be a dog fight. We are right in the middle of things and by no way are we out of this fight just yet.
My roomate is a diehard Phillies fan. On days when the Phillies lose, he sounds just like one of us. I have been watching more Philly games since he moved in, and I’ve gotta say, they really are very similar to the Mets…moreso than you realize.
Last year the Phillies were a game under .500 on July 20th. They then rolled off 9 out of 10 and they were off.
I say we throw the checkbook at Bobby Valentine and see what he can do with a team full of talent. He took us to the WS with Mike Piazza and 24 nobodies. He comes with a little baggage as far as wanting to be in the spotlight but in NY no matter what you are in the spotlight. At least he relishes it and doesn’t get defensive and paranoid when the focus is on him.
Matt, you have to understand, it’s not just about this season. For the past 2,412 games, the Mets have played .500 ball.
Since September 24, 1992, the Mets are 1,206-1,206. Willie was on the roster when this run started in ‘92, and now, he’s the Manager. He needs to be held accountable.
That is funny, but on a sad note, you need to get out more. Way too much research there buddy! And someone check the math!
That is fantastic work. I knew we shouldn’t have traded David Cone! how could we expect to be over .500 without him!
This is rediculous. Well what about their record for the last 3000 games..the last 5000 games…the last 10,000 games..WHO CARES. Start from April first 2008 and the mets are 22-21..that should be your starting point and that should be the only thing that matters right now.
I think he is joking dude. Looking at your log name leads me to the question, Anyone else notice Duaner only throwing his fastball @ 85. Maybe he still needs time to rehab?
Yea ive noticed his velocity is down. I want to say perhaps he was ill but i dont really know. Maybe the warm weather will help….
Actually starting April 1, they are 21-21. Opening Day was 3/31 ;)
Thanks in part to Anthony Young! lol
I think Bobby V and Omar would be a great match. Bobby V’s biggest problem was that he would aggrivate players on other teams and they would not want to come to the Mets as free agents. Remember when we signed Glavine and Cliff Floyd they both said that they would not have signed here if Bobby V were the manager. I think Omar is great at communicating with impending free agents.
In addition both Bobby V and Omar have similar scouting/player specifications. Valentine would be a perfect coach for the “why did Omar pick this guy up” type players. The reason they got rid of BV in the first place was because he fell out of terms with Steve Philips who wanted all high profile vets. BV was pissed when they sent Mora for rent a scrub Bordick and that was the straw that broke Mr. Mets back.
I just wish Bobby got this much love back when he was actually managing the team. I was a big fan and felt like I was on an island.
So that’s what a World Series trophy looks like……
ha!
And last year the refrain was “remember the Cardinals, they stunk all year and won the World Series.”
Enough armchair psychiatry and palace intrigue. Just win.
We need the 06 version of Beltran back, not the punch and judy defensive CF we have seen so far. Is it really that important to have a good hitter behind you? I mean did Ralph Kiner have anyone “protecting” him in the lineup on all those crappy Pittsburgh teams? He gets on a roll, we get on a rol. Start earning your contract Beltran.
I agree, but let’s not dole out the criticism of the middle of the lineup and leave Wright out of it. He hasn’t done anything this year, either.
Agree, in certain clutch spots. But, his numbers are line and better than last year at this time.
Good point.
I don’t understand why so many mets fans feel this willie situation is so unfortunate for him. what has he really done to earn that kind of sympathy? its not like Joe Torre who won 4 world series and it may be hard to part ways. Willie was handed the keys to a team with a boatload of talent, had a real good regular season in 2006 that couldn’t step on the 83 win cards throats. Last year we had 2 solid months and have been the definition of a .500 team for a full calendar year. Toss in an epic collapse where this team couldn’t beat the 2 worst teams at home when it had to, absolutely no adjustment in attitude and style to better suit his team, and now this recent circus which included shots at the fans, confirmed paranoia, thin skin and so on… what exactly has any mets fan feeling sorry for him if he gets fired?? i just don’t get it, someone please explain it to me i am serious.
Come on, we all know the feeling when we realize we’re stuck with a difficult-to-get-behind Met team. This is just one of those years. I’ve been a fan through these big expectation types of seasons too many times over the years to see this group as anything different or look at in any optimistic way.
In fact, at this point the team is so disappointing, that if they start turning it around, I’m personally going to consider them OVERachieving. Oh, wait, that label only gets applied to young scrappy teams like Tampa and Oakland.
The problem is, as much as i want to make the playoffs, I’d also like to enjoy the whole year, and they’re making that tough.
Yep, buckle up and hang on! An oh, keep that barf bag handy…
whatever happened to DFA’ing Ruben Gotay would be the death of the 2008 Mets….see it isnt Willie, its RuBEN GooTIE
Woopee! 120 more games to watch them basically go .500 this season!
How I wish baseball season were over already
how many other teams were NOT in first place at this time last year and still did NOT make the playoffs? stop trying to make a .500 team look better than it is.
“You are what your record says you are”
Actually, thats a bad point, because 2 years ago St. Louis’ record said they were not a playoff team, yet they won the WS…
but look were arguing over stupid nonsense now
I think we can all agree the Mets are underperforming, the question is why:
My answers:
1. Reyes
2. Injuries
3. Pedro being hurt
4. Alou & Castillo playing part time – with only 13 position players on the roster to begin with
5. Beltran
6. Wright’s May
7. Delgado – he’s this low because did you really expect more
8. Marlon Anderson is not getting it done in the pinch as much
9. Aaron Heilman
10*. Jorge Sosa* – He Gone
But the problem is…you cant fire Beltran, so if a change needs to be made it has to be Willie to go…(id rather see them replace Hojo with Jose Valentin)…but look, when you own a team and they dissappoint you feel the need to do something, however its May and they wont fire Willie during the year, and he doesnt deserve to be…if on September 30th he’s still not gotten this team to the playoffs then say goodbye and start over next year, but the firing in the middle of the year thing only helps teams like Houston in 05 where they werent supposed to be contenders but then a swift kick shot them through a Rockies-like streak, but if Leyland or Willie or even John McLaren were to get the boot those teams arent built as underdogs and wouldnt respond that way.