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Whether for or against Willie Randolph, the fact of the matter is that his players are not performing well. They’re not doing ‘the little things,’ as he likes to say.
They are lacking swagger, confidence and they’re not playing smart, aggressive baseball. And so, speaking as a fan, regardless of wins and losses, they’re just not very fun to watch.
To me, this has everything to do with the make-up, health and talent level of the people stepping on to the field – and 
neither Randolph nor any other manager is going to change that.
And so, while people want to get on Randolph’s case, and understandably so, Omar Minaya should also be held accountable for the way this roster was put together and his potential lack of foresight regarding issues with age, attitude and energy.
Minaya has done a great job of getting this team from the Art Howe-era to a time when .500 is described as, ‘unacceptable.”
That said, I believe the Mets require more of a change on the roster than they do in the manager’s office.
Minaya’s style has been effective. Sure, he let go of Brian Bannister, Jeff Keppinger, Mike Jacobs and Heath Bell, but he also acquired Oliver Perez, John Maine, Johan Santana, Duaner Sanchez and Ryan Church, among others.
The thing is, and what worries me, is that the old market – in which Minaya worked so well – is now changing, and being run by a younger, different-thinking generation.
Smaller-market teams are now locking up their best young talent, meaning these players are less likely to hit the open market. There is more parity in baseball, and so teams are less likely to make trades. Lastly, players are breaking down and performing worse in their late 30s, probably due to the league’s new performance-enhancing drug policy, and so relying on older talent may not be as effective as it was just a few years ago.
I hope Minaya is able to adapt. I am willing to bet he can, and I’m eager to see him in action – sooner than later, by the way.
As I said a few weeks ago, I sense that the Mets are at a crossroads. Minaya did outstanding work, and did what was necessary to get from Howe to here. However, I have a feeling that more work will need to be done to get from here to a World Series ring – let alone remain over .500.
[Poll=100]
Finally! This guy needs to be held accountable for this team’s performance. Will SNY finally ask him the hard questions? Why no talent developed since he’s here? Why is Bernazard parading in the clubhouse? Why do the Mets never have advance scouting of young pitchers on other teams?
They NEED to shave their heads again to REVERSE THE CURSE!
Read “The Curse of The Shaved Heads”
metsmerizedonline.com
I don’t think there is a problem with the advanced scouting, as much as it is a problem with having too much of a veteran mindset as a club.
Generally, older players utilize experiance against prior pitchers as a tool in the favor….so much to the point that they can often become reliant on it. Delgado, for example, very noticeably kept a notebook of how opposing teams pitched to him so he could utilize those rescources in future at-bats. However, when young pitchers come in, there is no reference point so if you’re reliant on information that isn’t there, you’re often a bit confused having to go without it. You can see the scouting reports and know what he throws, you can watch some film of him pitch, but it’s never the same for a veteran as getting into the batters box and seeing exactly which direction his pitches break, if it’s deceptively fast or not, ect.
Younger hitters however, generally get by moreso on pure ability….so this is often less of a problem for younger ballclubs.
By the way, as to no talent developed under him….
Joe Smith and Mike Pelfrey were his draft picks and they’re both in the Majors. Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra were both brought in under him and make half of the package to get Johan Santana. Meanwhile, most of our top prospects now (I think pretty much all of them except Carp) are Minaya products.
Not the most impressive haul, but keep in mind….the Mets haven’t had 1st round picks the last 2 seasons because of our activity in Free Agency (Wagner, Alou), and that extremely limits the amount of high-ceiling talent you can bring in.
I don’t know that we should be so excited about Pelfrey. He’s not really done much. And Joe Smith is a middle reliever.
True, but it usually takes years for a player fresh out of HS/College years to work his way up through the system and make an impact, unless he’s a first round pick (And as I mentioned, the not having first round picks the last 2 years is crippling here). So that’s about as much of an impact you’re going to see this early.
You won’t see the true impact of Minaya’s work in the farm for a few seasons now. F-Mart, Niese, Murphy, and Evans should be the first wave of his long-term products. Lets see how they do before we trash the guy for his handling of the farm system.
Pelfrey WAS a first round pick!
I know that….that’s why he was up here so early. Pelfrey only had 88 Innings in the minors prior to his first call-up. As opposed to someone like Jon Niese, who was taken in the same draft, who has pitched 341.2 Innings and has yet to get a chance to pitch in the Big Leagues. That just goes to show the different timelines that 1st round picks are on then later round picks are. You’ll begin to see the impact of those guys in the next year or two when they begin to crack the big league lineup.
But as of right now, Pelfrey is the only 1st round pick that Minaya has gotten to draft (Not including Sandwich picks). Now, yes, part of that is Minaya’s fault, as he cost us those picks by signing players like Wagner and Alou. But with 2 1st Rounders this year (And a sandwich pick), he should be able to go a long way to fix those problems.
Unless sticking to slot kills us.
Breaking slot is only a worthwhile strategy when there are players worth breaking slot money for. Every year there are less and less players likely to do so, partially because other teams are breaking slot and not letting those players drop, but also partially because MLB has taken steps to increase the teams leverage (Such as re-embursting them with a pick if a player doesn’t sign in early rounds). Stop for a second and tell me who the Rick Porcello is in this years class….that Top 5 talent that is going to drop to where the Mets are selecting in this years class. Because I don’t see that guy there. That’s not to say I wouldn’t like to see them spend more money in the draft, but going ‘overslot’ is really overrated because the player who you’re going to end up paying for often isn’t a ton better then a player willing to sign for slot money.
It’s also worth noting that the Mets spend a ton of money every year overseas in Latin America, probably the most in the league. So it’s not like they’re being cheap, they’re just allocating their resources ($) into developing and signing players overseas.
I’m not suggesting they should go over slot for the sake of it. But to hog tie yourself based on a philosophy that other teams don’t share is shooting yourself in the foot. I don’t know enough about the college and HS scene to know who might or might not warrant going over slot. But with more parity on the big league level, I think it makes sense to flex your financial might where you can — and where appropriate.
Anybody that blames Minaya is an ignorant dolt with no ounce of baseball knowledge. The most objective people in the world, Vegas, gave the Mets enormous odds to come out of the NL. That tells you he did all he had to do. People are so stupid its embarrasing.
Matt hit the nail right on the head. With revenue sharing, there no longer are a ton of good young free agents on the market for the large market teams to sign, because the young studs are being signed by their original teams before they become free agents. Plus the new PEDs policies have made younger players even more of a premium than they’ve been in the past.
Theo has adapted by trying to build from within. Cashman is trying to adapt but he’s not nearly as smart as Theo. I don’t think Omar has even recognized these trends sufficiently yet. That’s why he’s so behind the curve.
de-po-des-ta
dykstraw … the fact that he practically ruined the Dodgers doesn’t concern you?
If you look at all of the young talent the Dodgers now have, you’d realize the Depo was largely responsible. This kind of thing takes patience.
Like who in particular? Name three players.
I’m willing to believe you. I just want particulars.
Clayton Kershaw, Loney, and Russel Martin
None of those players were drafted by DePodesta.
Anyone else?
Seriously, if an executive doesn’t have a good drafting or player development record, I wouldn’t hire him.
You know what? I just went and checked, and you are right. He didn’t get any good young players. I thought I’d read something just a couple of weeks ago to the contrary. My bad.
he traded the ridiculously overrated paul loduca and a pre-cataclysmic guillermo mota and brought back brad penny, who is the only guy in that 6-man trade who is still worth anything.
and yeah, he didn’t draft those kids, but he also managed not to trade them away either.
the dodgers have really hit the skids since he left. juan pierre? andruw jones? jason schmidt? come on.
depodesta got a raw deal because a couple of idiot journalists hated him for his moneyball roots and called him dumb crap like google boy. high time he got another shot.
I think he got fired because he totally ignored the intangible elements of the game. Like team chemistry. For example, no matter what we feel about Lo Duca now, at the time they traded him he was a leader in the clubhouse and highly regarded. And who is one of the players DePodesta brings in? Milton Bradley.
I’d like a GM who has a good grasp and appreciation of stats, but also recognizes intangibles like makeup and team chemistry and leadership. I always thought Omar ignored makeup and instead concentrated on reputation (vs. performance) and tools.
i’d take milton bradley right now. he’s putting together a nice season.
He’s got crazy home/away splits due to that Arlington Park. He wouldn’t hit like that at Shea.
It is tough to evaluate a GM’s moves so quickly - but the fact that Omar is not getting enough heat for signing Castillo is beyond me. On his next radio interview - he needs to be flat out asked why in the world this guy was given a four year deal? Castillo is going to be the Mets version of Jerome James…What a mistake that was.
Willie has list the clubhouse and needs to go - Matt, if you don’t think a manager has anything to do with ateams performance you are fooling yourself. Loook at the starting OF for the 2000 NL Champs for a prime example of how a manager can clearly impact a teams results.
That same manager’s 1998 team choked away a wild card berth by losing its last 5 games and lost 7 straight in late September 1999 which almost cost them a playoff berth. Bobby V did some good things here but a few of his teams didn’t exactly play well down the stretch.
In some ways, I see a parallel between this year’s team and the 1999 team. While the 1999 team wasn’t coming off a historic collapse, their predecessor should have been in the playoffs. During the 98-99 offseason, they signed Rickey Henderson and Robin Ventura as free agents to rectify two of the 1998 team’s main problems: lack of a competent leadoff hitter and need for another middle of the order bat. While that team started out well (17-10 and then 27-20), it lost 8 straight games to stand at 27-28 culminating in the firing of Bobby V’s coaching staff. At that point, Fonzie, Piazza and Olerud were playing great but Henderson (.242 avg) and Ventura (.268 avg) were struggling. Henderson finished the year with a .315 avg and Ventura finished the year hitting .301 and the mojo was rising in Queens.
This year, a shakeup (i.e. firing of coaches and/or manager) may be needed but unless our underperforming players step up like Henderson, Ventura and a few other 1999 Mets did, the 2008 team will go nowhere.
People forget the Bobby V era was not just the 1999 playoffs and the 2000 WS.
i can take or leave omar. he has made all the big flashy moves but he’s let too much young talent slip away through the back door. relying on pedro and alou so much the past two years was foolish.
but he isn’t going to be evaluated unless and until willie is removed.
and el duque..
and castillo…
I agree, Dykstraw.
We probably disagree on how much of the blame Willie deserves, but at this point, even if he’s not the problem, he clearly isn’t the solution, either.
If Willie goes and the team responds, then it might be a move that saves the season. And, if the team continues to meander its way to a .500 record without Willie, it will force everyone to turn the spotlight on Omar and the players and make them accountable for what happened here as well.
As long as Willie is here to take the beating from the fans and media, Omar, and most importantly, the players, are not going to he held accountable.
“he isn’t the solution” - wonderfully stated. its what ive been syaing this whole time. he won’t win a championship because he doesn’t deserve a championship
Thing is, dont you think Omar knows this? Thats why he’s hanging on to Willie. He knows its not all Willies fault and knows firing him and putting someone else in charge is not going to do a thing. It will all come down on him and he knows it. As long as he hangs on to Willie the spotlight wont shine on him, and he gets to keep his job.
Well said by boooooo. That about sums up the state of the franchise.
absolutely time …omar gets heat for this flawed team….
how about d.w … suggesting the same stuff as wagner……???
what do you mean?
His postgame remarks yesterday insinuating that most players didnt care about losing as much as he did
can you point me to them? (not doubting, just want to read them)
One of the problems with Omar is his penchant to make sentimental moves. Two years for El Duque was a sentimental move. So was picking up Alou’s option this year instead of going after someone like Fukudome.
Sure, lets ignore that Fukudome signed for 4.5 million a year more then Alou. Not exactly chump change…..and I don’t really see what the fascination with him is anyways. Good average, good OBP, but slugs at about the level of Endy Chavez (.125, .093 IsoP the last 2 years vs Fukudome’s .126). I’m not convinced he’s 12 million a year good.
Here’s my fascination with him: Good defense, good OBP, and 31 years old.
I really don’t care about slugging as much as I do about OBP. You can’t even compare Endy’s OBP which is at .218 with Fukudome’s .409. He gets on base twice as much.
And his OBP is better than Alou’s .373.
Put another way … Fukudome’s .409 OBP would be leading the Mets right now.
Just as one shouldn’t get fascinated with a player for sentimental reasons, one shouldn’t get fascinated with players for having a very good eight weeks. As Coach Parcells would say, let’s not get the anointing oils out yet on Fukudome.
Sure, OBP is important and very nice to have, but there is much more to hitting then just getting on base. Being able to move baserunners over more then 1 bag at a time is a necessary part of an Offense as well.
If you look at the stats, the Mets are 9th in Team OBP in the league, but if you asked around on these boards, nobody would argue that the Mets, right now, have a Top 10 Offense. That’s because we rank 22nd in Team Slugging.
Adding on, My point is that when I spend 12 million on a player, I want him to have more then just good on-base skills and I don’t see that with Fukudome.
one shouldn’t get fascinated with players for having a very good eight weeks.
I didn’t. He’s always been a good fielder and had a high OBP in Japan.
Sure, OBP is important and very nice to have, but there is much more to hitting then just getting on base.
Sure, SLG is nice too. But what’s more important? The stats say OBP.
There’s is a much higher correlation between OBP and wins than there is between SLG and wins. For proof look at last years’ postseason teams and the teams that led in OBP and SLG. The correlation is much higher with OBP.
For 12 million, I’d take good OBP and defense over poor-mediocre fielding and just SLG any day.
Especially over a guy who appears one every two months (see, e.g.: Alou, Moises).
C’mon Matt, you’re going to blame Minaya for the Mets recent struggles? They guy basically stole Santana from the Twins and assembled a pretty solid team on paper before all this mess. Sure he traded away a few prospects and signed Castillo to that stupid 4-year contract but c’mon, to blame Minaya for where the Mets are today is just foolish.
Umm, I am not blaming Minaya. I am simply suggesting other moves need to be made going forward, which, yes, falls on Minaya, to get the team to that next level.
I was simply asking a question at the end, not pushing an answer.
If I had to vote, I’d vote Player Performance.
Nah, I don’t blame Omar. Did you forget that he locked up Jose and David? Isn’t that what you just said other teams were doing, locking up young talent? If anything Omar was ahead of the curve on that one.
In part, player attitude is Willie’s fault. We can’t have Jose laughing coming off the field down a bunch of runs. We can’t have Castillo non chalanting plays. These guys should not accept losing, and right now it seems that they are. Willie has the power to change things. Maybe he should bench Jose a game or 2. I don’t knowm I don’t have the answers, but you can’t let Willie off the hook for his players attitudes. He’s the guy in charge.
Understand where you’re coming from but benching Reyes didn’t exactly work wonders last season. Plus, he was actually one of the few Mets last night who showed any life. Singling him out would be a tad unfair given his performance last night relative to just about every other one of his teammates.
Benching players, although an effective move when a player deserves it is a problem for this team when the replacements are marlon anderson (who seems like he is finished), damien easley (forgot how to hit) and endy chavez (has regressed the last two years to an automatic out). The bench stinks with no power hitters….
Exactly — separating “player performance” and “Willie Randolph” isn’t entirely fair. Obviously, everything goes through the players. Willie doesn’t hit or pitch. Thus, if the team is sagging, “player performance” is to blame, by definition. The real question is what’s to blame for poor player performance. Players’ talent dissipating? Too much time carousing? How about a poisonous clubhouse and an incompetent dullard for a boss?
and that weak bench is one of Omar’s doings. Anderson? I dont remember Rusty Staub ever having to start games to keep his bat going as the teams primary pinch hitter. Easley? The 38 year old guy I said over the winter shouldnt have been signed so fast. We caught lightening in a bottle in 2006 with Valentin and in 2007 with Easley, but its too much to rely on such old players to give you more than one year of production. We got it, we should have moved on. Endy? Great defensive player but was never a real offensive threat and nowadays with more pitchers in the pen and less backup players, that kind of luxury cannot be afforded. This is why some guys were saying early to trade Endy and keep Pagan. Pagan is an adequate fielder with speed and a better hitter (switch hitter) than Endy. Pagan goes down and who does Omar bring up for an injured outfielder? Tatis, a thirdbaseman who’s played a handful of games over the years in the outfield, who seems to be an all or nothing hitter in the likes of Dave Kingman. I dont even think Willie wanted him to be called up since he really hasn’t played him any. Other than Endy the bench is weak defensively and lacks speed (no one to pinch run), and the bats just aren’t effective enough. Its one thing to rely on aged veterans in your starting lineup or on your bench, but its another to rely on them in both spots.
Player performance is only half of it. It’s the manager’s responsibility to help the team coalesce into a unit that operates well on the field. The 1986 starting lineup wasn’t exactly a group of all stars top to bottom, and off the field they often acted like drug-addled boozing psychos, but they were crisp on the field from start to finish that year. It’s not the role of the players to work on team psychology and group dynamics, and simple teamwork. Willie is too hands-off. Yes, Castillo needs to put that ball in play and yes he needs to charge the grounders, but the entire team needs to have a better view of how the whole is equal to more than a sum of its parts. Ensuring that view is shared by the team is the manager’s responsibility.
This team is weak in part because some players are playing below their ability, but others (Church, Schneider, Shoenweis, Wagner) are playing well or even above their norm. But it is mostly weak because it is playing disjointed, aimless baseball and Willie is doing nothing to center them.
Personally I voted “Player Performance” because I feel Willie has been too soft on these guys hence there is no swagger or toughness on the field. Kinda reminds me of the Art Howe days… just a buncha guys trying to find themselves. Heck, even the manager doesn’t even know how to keep his lips sealed.
One thing for sure with this team is that their is a lot of talking but no one with the exception of Wagner, Santana and a few others are stepping it up. Team to beat? Yea.. ok.
BTW Matt, keep up the great work… I’ve been a long time reader and I just registered.
Thx!
stole him.???…….. did ya follow that deal ? ….. the twins had no one else to dance with…..
C’mon, give Omar some credit. He didn’t blink and throw in F-Mart in a panic move. He read the market well and played his hand perfectly.
I give him kudos for that one. The Castillo signing? Not so much.
Yea seriously… you think Santana just fell on Minaya’s lap pal?
C’mon… if it were that easy the Yanks would have swiped him up with the quickness.
You also have to give Minaya credit for NOT:
-giving the Johan contract to Barry Zito
-giving up prospects for Dannys Baez
-giving up prospects for Chad Cordero
-giving up prospects for Eric Gagne
I have to agree here. Omar does not get enough credit for NOT making the moves that people were screaming at him to make at the time, esp. the NY Post w/Barry Zito.
And I think if you look at his trades as a whole he has gotten more talent than he has given up.
Santana was a checkbook move. The Yankees and Red Sox said no and Minny had no other takers
btw they needed 2 pitchers not one…..
I’ve written this several times, but I’ll do so again. The real problem the Mets have is this “win-now” strategy. Sure, a big money team can go into a win now mode and be successful, but the costs are great.
This team has been repeating the same cycle since the late 80s: compete with a veteran team, watch the veteran team become an old team and stink, mortgage the farm and draft picks by going after more veterans, compete with those veterans, watch those veterans become old and stink.
There’s this belief in NY you cannot rebuild. But I have to say, watching your home growns learn and suffer is a whole lot better than watching pricey veterans age and decline. Also, I do believe that long term sustained success requires that much of the talent come through your system.
The win-now formula doesn’t work well often, and when it does work well it does so for only a brief period.
We made trades for the Delgados of the world to win now, but we didn’t win. We almost won in ‘06. But those win-now windows close quickly, and the close with a bang.
Rebuild. I promise I’ll go to the games and watch the games and root my heart out. But please give me inspired baseball and something to look forward to.
Good Points on the home grown issue. My wif’e’s family is from Boston so I get a lot of Red Sox news and info. They are in love with the kids that the have. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson etc. The Mets dump those guys for the first famous name they can get. Theo said no to the Twins.
Remember, Omar traded Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee for Bartolo Colon. Not sure, but I think Brandon Phillips may have been in that deal as well. Omar loves the backs of baseball cards and operates like this is a fantasy team.
metsforever,
who are all these prospects(let alone the level of
Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson)
that minaya has given up for big name players?
At the time they were acquired, who are these the big name players?
By the way I can’t think of any other big name players that were traded for.
Delgado, Loduca, Green, Castillo, Johan.
Mike Jacobs is the best player(which isn’t saying much) they gave away in order
To acquire these “big name” players.
I’m with you here, i would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather watch the met’s home grown talent cut their teeth then aging and declining veterans.
We have to face facts, this year we will not be very good, next year will be a step in the right direction as a whole batch of new (and PLEASE OMAR IF YOU ARE READING THIS) young blood will arrive on the scene.
LF, 1B, 2 SP’s, 2 or 3 RP’s, the team will have a new look and feel to it.
Heres an off the cuff question since I dont know the answer, could Dan Murphy start playing 3rd base next season and move Wright to 1st? Is that possible or far fetched?
We have a great core of Beltran, Church, Wright, Reyes, and Scheinder. Santana, Maine, Pelf (whose starting to understand how to pitch in the ML and i think will be good for us in the not so far future), Wags, Smith, Duaner, Feliciano.
The makings of a good team are there, the Mets just need a few more pieces to the puzzle next year and i think a lot will turn around
Why move a proven talent for a rookie? Unless that rookie is a major talent…
Yeah, I think you’re better off trying to move Murphy to 2B or OF. Even if he stays in AA at 2B, it’d be nice to have someone waiting in the wings behind Castillo. I admittedly don’t know much about Murphy, though, so I don’t know if he’d be capable of making that sort of transition.
Theo can win now, build for the future, and build a strong farm system. All at once. Why can’t Omar?
He could if he thought that way. Theo is smart in his understanding the value of players. Once you properly sort players by value, it becomes much easier to build a sustaining system.
Theo is not god though. He’s also made his fair share of blunders. I’d say he’s made just as many bad moves as Minaya and drafting I don’t give full credit to GM’s anyways.
Theo signed Matt Clement to replace Pedro. Gave Lugo a terrible contract, as well as to Drew. Thought Crisp could replace Damon. Overpaid Renteria when Cabrera was already liked there. Traded Josh Bard and Cla Meredith for just Mirabelli. And he gave up Gabbard and other good prospects for Gagne.
He gave Julian Tavarez a 3 or 4 year deal that makes the one to Castillo look not so bad.
Nobody knows how a young player will pan out, there’s some luck involved. And did you guys ever think maybe the Twins liked out prospects? Gomez is a future stud- way better than Melky will be and Guerra has a chance to be a frontline guy.
Gomez son’t be a stud unless he stops striking out so much. He’s young, so it could happen, but I wouldn’t exactly say he’s a sure thing. I hope so, though, I like him.
Sure. All GMs make bad moves. The measure of a good GM is not how many bad moves they make, but how far they get their teams given their allotted budget, and how strong their farm system is. And by these measures, Theo is a much better GM than Omar. He’s been GM of the Red Sox just 1 more year than Omar has been GM of the Mets and he’s gotten his team two WS titles already. They are also currently a stronger franchise than the Mets are.
The thing with letting Pedro go is they offered arbitration and got Bucholz. And Crisp is hitting around .300 and is a much better player than Damon at this point. I think they also got a draft pick out of Damon. And with Renteria, at least they didn’t overpay an old creaky player to the extent he became untradeable. So his contract didn’t end up to be the burden that Castillo’s might be.
So even in some of Theo’s bad moves, there were silver linings.
Well put, Free.
Of course he’s made mistakes, all GMs do. But not going crazy with contracts is a good way to mitigate mistakes.
Omar’s made a lot of good moves, no doubt. But his mindset (or maybe it’s the mindset of the Wilpons) has been one that doesn’t seem to look down the road very far.
I think Omar has actually shown better restraint than past Met GM’s. Phillips bashed the Mets on baseball tonight last year at the deadline for not dealing Gomez for Gagne. Plus he got Santana w/out giving up Pelfrey and F-Mart. I agree the Mets always have that win-now mentality, which I don’t always agree with. I prefer to “Try to win now while always considering the future.” But NY is not a patient city. I’m curious to see if the Yanks fail to make the playoffs how quick they’ll give up on Kennedy & Hughes.
you you spell check before every flawless post, don’t you?
We’re going to get you. ONe of THES dayZ.
To whom are you addressing this?
Yhom.
Earlier I wrote “the” when I meant to write “they.” That’s something.
just busting on you.
in regards to your post, good stuff.
And Bingo was his name-o!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey Matt, since I know that some Met officials, besides SNY people, view this website to get a feel of what Met fans are thinking and feeling towards the team, I need to scream the obvious: The Mets DO NOT NEED a new manager, they NEED A NEW PSYCHOLOGIST. NOW!!!
They need a PROCTOLOGIST to get their heads out of their @$$
Great post Matt C. Minaya needs to answer the questions regarding why he saw fit to keep this roster together when there was evidence of decline. 2B, LF the Bench and the Bullpen couldv’e been changed for the better this past off season but was not. Minaya added Santana to a broken team. Santana can go 20-4 and we could still not be a factor for the playoffs.
I’m not saying that Omar bears no burden for the failure of this team, but I still think willie deserves more blame. The GM is supposed to assemble talent for the manager to utilize. The Manager has to create an environment in the clubhouse that will get the most out of that talent.
Its not like Omar assembled a cast of bad character guys that no manager could control. If anything, they are just a bit soft and aloof. Omar cant be blamed for them remaining aloof, but Willie can. Keith, Showalter, Mazz, anyone else would kick some behinds to get this done….
I’d like to know where you saw this evidence of decline….
Castillo hit .296 with a .371 OBP and 10 SB in 50 G as a Met. Now was he worth a 4 year contract? Of course not, but nobody foresaw him being a problem in 2008, it was perhaps 2 or 3 years down the line that people were concerned about.
Alou, while injury prone, was extremely productive last year.
The people in the bullpen who are underperforming are not Scott Schoeneweis, Joe Smith, or any of the other fringe guys (Except for Sosa who is already gone), The main struggles are from Aaron Heilman and Duaner Sanchez. Two guys who were the core of our bullpen for a long time now. I’m not sure how you can suggest that he should have seen that coming. Maybe you can blame him on Wise, but I’m giving him a bit of the benefit of the doubt as he’s only had what, 4 outings since coming back?
I’m all for getting rid of Omar also. He made the same mistake 2x in a row- he saw how old, aging players failed him at the end of 2006, so he doubled down in 2007 on the same old, aging players, and in 2008 he even added Castillo (oh lord, 4 years of this slap hitting non-hustling garbage)
And I know that Omar emptied the farm for Johan, but the farm is still barren. F-Mart (overrated injury prone) and a bunch of 17 year old dominican kids who won’t help for 3 years at best
If he f**ks this upcoming draft (3 1st rounders) up, he needs to be axed.
This news that they are sticking with slot is simply infuriating!
They are sticking with slot? I thought they said they weren’t going to continue that garbage? Ugh. That is horrid.
I think this team for a lack of a better term is broke. There is no one person to blame. Has Willie lost it yes, Does Minaya make shady decisions sometimes yes. Are the players heartless yes, I couldn’t help but feel that Alou summed the whole thing up last night just walking off the field in the middle of the inning. He just had such an oh well look on his face. Don’t get me wrong, if Alou is hurt he is hurt, but this team needs more fire like it has from church. the man get’s knocked out trying to break up a double play in the 9th inning of a blow out and has to be carried off the field and wants to get right back in there. The team could learn a lot from this!
Broken would be a better term. Broke implies they don’t have any money to spend, which they obviously do.
But I agree that no one person deserves the blame.
Thank you, you are right. It just struck me wrong when alou was interviewed and he hasn’t even had an MRI yet and says it doesn’t look good. Church hasn’t even stopped bleeding yet and Willie has to tie him down to keep him on the bench. Where is the emotion guys? Where is the pride? Stop going through the motions and just collecting a check have some Pride!
I know other people have said this here, but cutting Delgado would send a much better message than firing Willie. Even if Carp can’t hit .230, you have to assume he’ll at least hustle. Maybe try to get Casey in the meantime…
Second this. Delgado is just painful to watch. How many 4-3’s can we take? Carp is tearing up AA, let’s give him a shot. At least then we’ll know if Carp is our 2009 1B or if he’ll need another year in which case we can act on that knowledge.
I agree with this. What will shake these players more? Firing the manager, or embarassing one of the “stars” by cutting him?
Yeah the Mets will throw away $16 million and bring up a kid who’s not ready. Watch the kid probably struggle and fail because everyone knows the other teams will pitch around whoevers batting in front of him in key situations, to pitch to the rookie. When and if he fails, just send him back down, really shattering his confidence, and quite possibly any chance of him ever becoming a productive major league player. This scenarios happened hundreds of times before to hundreds of players. Its a very real possibility so why rush a kid because you dont like the production of the current firstbaseman and that it wouldnt hurt “the Mets” to see if the kid can do it?
Mike Jacobs should not be included in that list. He was a piece used to get Carlos Delgado who, despite his recent struggles, was a huge part of the 2006 push. That wasn’t a talent evaluation issue, the Mets knew what they had in Jacobs and made the trade anyway and I’m sure would do it again. Bannister was the most questionable, but Bell and Keppenger were not going to develop into what they are now based on how they were used. I’d love to have them back, but there’s no doubt in my mind that they’d both still be on the AAA roster if they were with the organization.
Can this team be corrected in a year? I am already looking towards next year. I don’t see how this thing is going to get better this season. Its clear that the players are the problem and not so much Willie. That said, is it going to take a whole lot of money to fix this mess?
Money won’t do it this time. Look at the recent signings. The big guys (BOS, NYY, NYM) can’t steal free agents away from the Florida’s and Tampa Bay’s of the world anymore.
If rebuilding really is the way to go, the guy that can fetch the most is Beltran. There is nobody else on the current roster (Wright, Reyes and Maine are untouchable) that you can trade that can net you what he can. And to be honest, I don’t think we’d miss him all that much. I don’t even notice him anymore.
i agree, when they pull the plug on this bunch , he’s gotta bring back some prospects for beltran…
I always forget he has a full no trade clause though, so he’ll probably invoke it and stay until his contract ends in 2012, so we’ll have to endure another 3.5 years of good defense and maddeningly inconsistent offense.
Doubt it. Most guys (like Santana) understand it is better to leave then stay. If Beltran is faced with the same issue he will accept a trade as long as it serves his bets interest.
I really like the idea of trading Wagner idea at the trading deadine. All the contending teams have solid closers though…..Maybe he Tigers, if they climb back, but they don’t have any prospects we would want. I think he could fetch us some quality.
You would think with the way the Toledo Mudhens have been running roughshod over the international league over the past 3 years, the Tigers would have plenty of prospects. But you are correct.
Beltran’s contract is only really affordable by a handful of teams….not the best trade bait. And I’d rather not trade him considering I don’t think he’s part of the problem. He’s been hitting well this month after a slow April.
Wagner would fetch quite a bit at the deadline, I’d imagine.
I agree…The false expectations has really discouraged and alienated Met fans’. What else should the higher ups do? Evaluate the GM and manager, then restructure the roster. Someone suggested if the team rebuilds and commits to playing inspired baseball, then he will continue to support the team. I agree wit that sentiment. If the team fails to make the playoffs and no one is held accountable, then why should I continue to spend my hard earned money on a team that Sucks?
Minaya has done a good job overall. The Mets did not have a good farm system to build with, and the Johan and Church trades have been steals.
But… and repeat after me… the mets need to abandon the slotting system in the draft!
This is non negotiable, and not doing so is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
They’re all to blame. The team isn’t built right, but it’s still better than it has performed on the field. Omar doesn’t get enough criticism for the bad moves he has made, but gets all the credit in the world for the good ones. He deserves the credit for the good moves, but it seems like people only see that part of him. He gets too much credit for landing Santana. If the Mets win tonight, we can thank Omar; but we can thank the Wilpons too, and the Yankees and Red Sox while we’re at it. Willie is just a giant distraction at this point. For weeks I posted that the best course of action for this team was to win with Willie right where he is, with the least amount of interruptions possible. Now he’s become the interruption.
Willie will be the first one to go, and he should go soon at this point. But that won’t address all of the problems. Maybe right now nothing will.
i’m sorry but depending and giving huge roles to old , always hurt players that let you down in the crunch 2 years running is an inexcusable mistake….. throw in resigning mota, ??? sosa ?? easliy?? alou?? castillo ?? anderson?? etc etc on and on…
I think we are missing elements of 2006 that have not been replaced. Cliff Floyd though hurt a lot too, was a real Met, who wanted to win at all costs and provided key hits. Jose Valentin was a team leader who had a lot of pop. I remember a grand slam in Pelfey’s debut. When was the last Grand Salami? Xavier Nady was in left field who was always clutch. Paulie was also clutch. Sanchez, Oliver and Bradford were all pretty much lights out.
Quite a different team we have now, huh? We haven’t found adequate replacements for any of these guys except maybe Church.
The thing is, a lot of guys had their career year in 2006. For Beltran and Reyes, 2006 was their best season. Delgado was very good, and Wright was very good as well. Valentin as you said was very good. The bullpen was lights out (Sanchez, Heilman, Bradford, and Oliver all had career years). Also, the thought of having to face Beltran/Delgado/Wright put fear into pitchers. Now, Wright is the only one you have to worry about.
If the mets are in rebuilding mode, I say only keep the following players: Wright, Church, Maine, Santana. Everyone else, can be had.
I would add Reyes to your list too.
They are all to blame, but if you think about it, Omar is most to blame because everything stems FROM him. The manager and the underperforming players are only here BECAUSE of Omar, so, logically, the blame should fall more proportionally on him.
My mother used to have an old Italian expression that she would say in these situations. I’ve long forgotten the actual Italian words, but roughly translated, it meant: “The fish stinks from the head.” That is most applicable here, with Omar being the head.
hmmm i agree that minaya has made some poor choices the last year or two. Alou is a more than solid player, but he gets injured - then again - pagan was playing pretty well in alou’s place, even if he had cooled off a bit. Are you going to blame Minaya for Pagan’s injury too? And then theres Endy backing up Pagan. Tough to blame Minaya for Endy’s swoon- did any of us predict that? If anything other than his hammy injury is to blame for his start this season, it would be Willie giving him virtually no playing time to get in a ‘nice little rhythm’… Minaya is certainly to blame for relying too much on a guy like El Duque. He should have had someone other than Figueroa waiting in the wings I guess. But then again - wasn’t Pelfrey waiting? Should Minaya have had two legitimate majorleague starters in the minors, expecting duque and pedro to both get hurt immediately? Do most GMs do that? Castillo seems to be the biggest mistake - but even for that - i mainly worry about the 4 year contract. The current season, we would not necessarily have been better off with Eckstein or Gotay or the other guys who were available.
The fact is, the team isn’t sputtering because Minaya didn’t put together the right team. The team is sputtering because players who should be carrying the weak links - Reyes, Wright, Beltran are not playing well enough. The fact that Church has played so well, and Santana has played well enough so far, doesn’t say that Minaya didn’t make enough moves, it just points out that despite those moves, there is still something holding them back. Sure pelfrey and fig/vargas have been shaky, but not all great teams have top to bottom stellar rotations. And Matt - you said yourself bullpen is a crapshoot most of the time. It seems like Minaya did more than enough to stock it up with different arms.
The only guys who seem to be playing without any particular holdup are the guys who weren’t around for the collapse. I don’t know if thats a mental thing, and maybe you can blame minaya for not making more of a major overhaul with the players to try to clean off any kind of stigma. But i still believe that overhaul should have begun with Willie Randolph. Who knows, he may not be the problem, but he certainly doesn’t seem to be the answer.
I agree with almost everything you stated.
while Omar certainly has his work cut out for him, I don’t necessarily see him as “behind the curve.” He DID just swing the Santana deal, so i’m not sure how or where the fact that deals don’t get done anymore, works into this equation. He also was ahead of the curve in signing his young talent, giving Dwright and Reyes contracts before all these other teams starting doing that. He’s not perfect, but I don’t see how he’s supposed to forsee his team playing flat. You put talent together and hope it COMES together. I don’t see anything wrong with individual personalities on this team, apparently, the collective personality is the problem. Hard to judge that really. Now, Omar does need to do something here eventually, if the team continues on like this. That’s his job, to reconfigure, to figure something out to piece this team together a bit better. But it’s hard for me to blame him for what’s happening thus far this season. Signing Luis Castillo to a 4 year deal is not the reason for this. Signing El Duque to a 2 year deal 2 years ago is not the reason for this.
True. The way I see it, they need better hitters, plain and simple. Beltran is not cutting it as the cleanup hitter. And going on a 2 week tear to bring his home run and rbi totals up and then back into a cold streak is not acceptable. Someone needs to anchor the offense who is a consistent threat.
“Whether for or against Willie Randolph, the fact of the matter is that his players are not performing well. They’re not doing ‘the little things,’ as he likes to say.”
So, by “little things,” he means hitting, pitching, fielding and baserunning?
Good point.
I was thinking by “little things” he meant - not playing aggressively, or not trying harder when the team is losing, or not running out a hit…………
You know the little things that a manager instills………..
This is dredging up a piont I have made before, and maybe this year it isn’t quite as valid.
So, it is easy to sy Omar should have gotten better/younger/etc. players, but exactly who are they, and how was he to get them?
Some of the old guy signings (or resingings, like Alou) were really intended to be stop gaps. Of course this was supposed to give the farm talent time to develop, but that hasn’t quite worked out.
I assume Omar would have loved to have gotten studly 28 YO players entering their primes instead of hoping to coax 1 more year out of the old guys, but how exactly was he supposed to get them? Other than Milledge for Church of course!
If you want to add more Wright types, you have to promote them from within, or at least develop an abundance of prime SP prospects to trade for them. And those guys went for Santana.
So at this pint, you almost have to bite the bullet and try the prospects for LF and 1B and hope to get production from them. Bring in a vet to help out, but that should be the back up, not the starter.
the old guy parade does have to stop for 2009. And if possible, start weeding them out now (Delgado, Duque, etc.).
But, the one thing that I can’t forgive Omar for is signing Castillo for 4 years. I did not like him last year, and I don’t care how unatractive the other choices were, he shouldn’t have done it. The team could have lived with Gotay, A. Reyes, (even A Hern) for a year if need be.
At least next year, we can hope the only 2 old guys on the team are Castillo and Wagner. And with any luck, Castillo breaks down and retires.
Hey, maybe Omar knew that Castillo could only last for 1 year, 2 max, so the 4 year deal was a sham all along?
For whatever it’s worth, I think this is one of Matt’s best posts ever.
I wish the Mets could find a way to bring up all of the guys in the minors (Fernando, Carp, Evans, Kunz, etc.) and bench all of our starters. I would let them play for a week, win or lose, just to show these bums what it is like to play with passion and fire. I would rather watch inspired, passionate, hungry kids play hard and lose than watch these bums hover around .500 and accepting mediocrity.
Totally agree. I would rather watch kids fail, then watch overpaid veterans stealing paychecks from the mets.
I think accountability has to be measured based not on what it took to get this team to 22-22, but on what each person is going to do about it.
I
fyrebug.com/2008/05/22/fire-willie
Omar should give Delgado the Frank Thomas treatment and just release him. Try out all three kids in AA in see which one can perform. Now is the time.
Here’s a novel idea- when a team is underachieving, try a different manager. Worked for the Marlins in 2003. Bring in a short term replacement that is a different personality type. (a Frank Robinson type, not necessarily him though) and reassess at year’s end. But you have to try a different manager before blaming the GM and getting rid of all the players. The worst thing they can do is over react at year’s end and clean house. Just let the old guys go who’s contracts are up, clear payroll and they’ll be fine.
So the players are not accountable for what is going on right now? Everybody needs to take a share of the blame. This idea that this is all on Randolph is absurd. How is it Randolph’s fault that Castillo double clutched a throw? That is the second baseman Omar Minaya has given him, so that’s who he has to play. Castillo knew that inning played out the way it did because he was fired up in the dugout.
But then, you can look at Pelfrey. He gives up a two-out walk to Chipper and the Braves score two in the inning, I believe. Pelfrey couldn’t find the plate. Randolph can’t go out and pitch for him.
And as I’ve said before, Heilman is not going to get himself together in the majors. Send him down to the minors to work the kinks out. It’s been done before. Blame Minaya for that one. Can’t blame Randolph.
Yea lets just change all the players year after year but keep Willie though. I’m not taking accountability off of the players but someone has to go and the coaching staff should first, not the players.
I am actually convinced at this piont that the real problem is Delgado, with Willie a close second (and also becasue Willie allows the Delgado cancer to fester).
Omar has to know that some moves need to be made. If he can trade Heilmann for soething worthwhile (throw in Endy too if need be!), do it, else send him down to get straightened out. Try to improve the bench.
But most important, get rid of Delgado. Trade him for anything, or just DFA him.
If nothing else, a major message has to be sent, to the team as well as the fans. And IMO Delgado would be addition by subtraction.
Call up 1-2 of the AA boys to replace him. Can’t be any worse, and at least it will be a breath of fresh air, and hustle.
Agree completely. But if you look at it objectively, the money isn’t really an issue. If you cut Delgado, you have to be able to find someone somewhere who can be at least as (un)productive as he is. So, you’re still paying $16 million for the same stats - a wash, assuming his replacement is relatively cheap.
Great points, Matt!
A few more:
1. A manager’s impact is overrated.
Are the Dodgers’ lighting it up with Joe Torre at the helm? No!
Jim Leyland got the Tigers to the World Series two years ago. This year he has more talent and they are struggling.
In other words, a manager cannot hit or pitch for his players. It’s on the players.
2. Farm System.
One of the reasons why this team is going to struggle after this year is that it’s farm system is barren. There is nothing on the horizon to either trade or bring up to replace aging veterans.
Okay, Fernando Martinez is down there, but he’s really more of a 2010 option.
Omar comes from this overrated scouting background and has done nothing here. He’ll point to how he traded prospects for Santana, so that shows how his staff has compiled a strong farm system, BUT 50% of the Santana package was signed prior to Minaya getting here (Humber and Gomez).
What have Omar and his staff done down on the farm? Nothing! And because it this organizationis cripples and doomed to rely on aging players.
What Omar needs to do is man up and go to Fred and say, “Fred, forget about adhering to slot recommendations. Let’s add an additional $4M to the draft budget. If we do we can net an additional 3-4 prospects that are signability questions. A $4M investment could have an bigger impact long-term than the $3M you’re paying a middle reliever like Schoeneweis.”
A managers impact is overrated with respect to a single game. Or Series. Or even a month of games. Ok, I somewhat agree with that.
We have a 162 game sample of a manager having little or no impact on his players at all. And that is the measurement to apply when evaluating Willie. You have to go back to last June.
Based on how things are going, why haven’t at least one of Carp or Evans or Murphy been promoted to AAA? What are they waiting for? Carp is hitting .341. Murphy is hitting .335. Evans is hitting .300 with power. It’s obvious Delgado is going to be gone next year, and what if we can’t get Tex? Why not at least attempt to have one of these guys ready if need be?
Those guys need to stay in Double A. That’s where the prospects play and that is where they are going to see the best pitching. That’s the way minor league baseball works. Guys come up from Double A all the time. And as I’ve said before, the numbers of those guys can be a little deceiving because the Eastern League has small ballparks.
The players: I’m fine with the core of the team (Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Santana, Maine…as great as Church has been it’s too early to tell). With the exception of the Red Sox, I don’t think there’s any other team out there with a substantially better group of core players, there are others that are comparable and better but not amazingly so. It’s the complimentary players that aren’t the best fit. And that is always the toughest balance to find. I think across all sports it’s pretty clear that having unlimited resources covers up poor decision making, particularly with NY teams. Look at the Rangers (NHL). It wasn’t until a salary cap forced them to construct their teams differently that their team building philosophy changed and the injection of young and/or hungry players snapped their playoff drought.
The GM: Also, it’s easy to look at team payroll numbers and say a team is full of overpaid players or great values. The way the salary structure works in MLB there is almost no in between. In the beginning of a player’s career pre-arbitration and pre-free agency, the salary structure works in favor of the team. Aftewards it works in favor of the player. If you were to assign value to players talents regardless of their arbitration/free agency status, teams like the Marlins and Rockies would certainly have payrolls comparable to the large market teams (guys like i.e. Hanley Ramirez and Uggla would probably be making as much as the current Marlins payroll). As has been mentioned before, teams are getting smarter and essentially buying out their young stars arbitration/first few years of FA.
The manager: Yeah, Willie isn’t the greatest manager in the league, but when the Uncle Cholly (Manuel) and Grady Little’s of the world can guide a team to the playoffs, you know that at the end of the day, the performance of a team still comes down to guys on the field.
Correction: “it’s pretty clear that having unlimited resources covers up poor decision making, particularly with NY teams”
That should read “doesn’t cover up poor decision making”.
The Diamonbacks core is better than the Mets as well. Also, while other teams’ core may not be as good as the Mets other teams have depth on the major league roster and in the minors, which the Mets don’t have and usually is more important.
Yeah the D-backs have a great assemblance of players, but it will be interesting to see if they can keep all of them together for more than a couple of years. I wonder how much of a drain they put on their system by trading for Haren. Although they might be the next coming of the Braves, just keep finding under the radar talent and letting that perpetuate for the better part of two decades.
Matt, I have a problem with you saying:
To me, this has everything to do with the make-up, health and talent level of the people stepping on to the field – and neither Randolph nor any other manager is going to change that
you seem to dance around this and other issues. the mets are a dead, lifeless team. you have reyes, delgado and others actually sporting a smile last night…….
any manager with balls and heart would be ticked off by that. that is just a small sample of what is wrong with the team. i don’t think this is 100% willies fault - but he is a main component and needs to go. i think a new manager is needed to help change the tone and attitude of this team….this team looks disinterested like winning and losing just doesn’t matter to most of them….delgado, beltran,reyes,etc -
Minaya’s problem is that there is no Players ‘R Us store where he can go can buy the players he needs. As Matt stated, good players are just not as available as they used to be. I’m sure the Mets would be happy to add another $50 million to the payroll if they could add Brandon Webb to the rotation, throw Matt Holiday out in left and stick Lance Berkman at first, but those guys aren’t available. No one really good is available. Teams don’t dump payroll anymore and the Mets don’t have much to trade.
this is a really good point that matt brought up, and one i hadn’t considered before. omar was a better gm when he could just buy what he needed, in terms of straight up signings and salary dumps.
They all need to be held accountable.
Were those teams from 1998 through 2000 that much more talented than this club? I think they were LESS talented in almost every area with the exception of catcher and second base. Yet Bobby V. somehow managed to get those teams to play hard each and every single game.
How many times did they launch late inning comebacks? How many times did they win one-run ballgames? How many times did they give the Braves fits? Win or lose, they at least made it close each and every time they faced their division rivals.
Quite frankly, that’s all I want as a fan! Just play hard and make it look as if you can at least compete in every game you play! I want them to win, and I want them to get to the WS again. But I don’t expect them to win every time out.
I just want to watch a game and know that if they are down by a couple of runs in the 6th, that I can remain hopeful that they will fight back and make a game of it.
Fact is, I don’t think there is a single Mets fan out there that feels as if they have the capability to do that, and rightfully so. And that’s their fault because they have set that standard now going back to last June.
I hope Minaya is able to adapt. I am willing to bet he can, and I’m eager to see him in action – sooner than later, by the way.
This is what scares me. That Omar can’t adapt because he either can’t recognize the trends Matt talks about … or he’s simply stuck and wedded to acquiring old washed up veterans.
And the reason I think he’s oblivious to the trends is that from multiple reports, he made Posada the Mets’ primary target going into the winter. I can’t imagine any other GM making a 36-year-old catcher their #1 target in this era. It’s just insane. And if the Mets had gotten Posada, it would have been one more key player for the DL.
Omar has been behind the curve for years and I’m afraid he won’t be able to adapt to the new times.
Ah, but you don’t have to imagine another GM, he exists, Brian Cashman.
You know what .. it wasn’t Cashman that caved in. It was Hankie. I think if it was just up to Cashman, he would not have given Posada the contract he got. Also, a big reason they brought Posada back is because he is one of their homegrowns who goes back to their WS years.
Barring the last factor, the Yankees might no have even gone after Posada.
Delgado is the biggest problem but what is the deal with Beltran? He is stinking it up this year! He is showing no heart whatsoever and he seems asleep at bat. Unbelievable when you add up the $16 million for delgado and the $18 million for Beltran. That is $34 million tied up in guys with no leadership skills and show no desire. Omar is 100% responsible for this….
Beltran got off to a real slow start last year too. Look at his splits. And he’s still young. Do you really think he’s not going to come out of it soon?
Deldgado is another matter.
But I wouldn’t worry about Beltran now.
oh, I don’t know how much stock you can put into that stuff…misdirection is a frequent tactic used by many front offices. I find it credible that much of that stuff was just noise, made either by the mets or writers looking for stories.
But how often do the Mets misdirect with Yankee players?
And it wasn’t just that the Mets said they were interested. They said he was their #1 target.
can you really not imagine that as a smokescreen and/or chain yanking of the yanks? based on mike and lo duca’s exits, I just find it a stretch that omar would truly put that much value in, as you say, a 36 year old catcher.
also, it always impresses me how you’re able to keep up with a thousand conversations on any given day.
Since it was reported by almost every paper and by multiple journalists, I tend to believe it was real.
Do you really think Madden allowed himself to be used for smokescreen purposes?
See entry below:
http://www.metsblog.com/2007/11/01/buzz-itll-take-a-big-deal-to-get-posada/#comments
There are all kinds of things every offseason reported by many journalists that have little substance behind the stories. I don’t know if I’d say “used”, since both parties benefit from insider relationships (which is not to attack anyone’s credibility as a journalist, just a fact of those relationships).
I don’t find it hard to believe it was discussed, given the year posada had, but I do find it diificult to see them seriously willing to invest so heavily.
Here’s the thing. The Mets kept talking to Posada’s agent throughout the process. I believe they even had lunch with Posada and his agent … or at least met with them in person.
AFAIK, teams confine their smokescreens to planted rumors or feeding journalists a bunch of BS. Because what if the talks had broken down with the Yankees and Posada’s agent calls Omar and says they’re ready to make a deal? Does Omar tell him: “Sorry, just kidding?”
Teams have to be careful about going to far with smokescreens. They’ll get a bad rep in the industry for not being worth their word. As it is, Torrealba’s agent is now suing the Mets.
So, IMO, I think their interest in Posada was genuine.
That’s true, but you can engage in a discussion with limited intent (or double intent), and have your purpose(s) served and integrity intact (and frankly, discussions with the mets would also have served posada as leverage vs the yanks).
if they said to his agent “here’s what we’ll give you if things don’t work out with the yanks”, I buy that. But I really don’t believe they ever would’ve given him even as much as the yanks did.
jamie, can you name any other time Omar used a player as a smokescreen, much less a Yankee player?
I just can’t see Omar doing these things for show.
And even 3/4 of what the yankees paid would have been too much for the Mets considering there is no DH in the NL.
Can you imagine the Mets DL list if they had signed Posada? El Duque, Alou, Pedro and Posada.
definitively, I can’t tell you anything that omar’s done, beyond what’s resulted in a contract being signed/player dfa/etc (you get my drift). And I’m not really sure what other yankee FA’s that fit the mets’ needs have become available in his tenure, but I can’t recall any others.
Ok, agree to disagree about that…I see some level of chicanery pretty much everywhere I look, so it’s just a difference of opinion.
I totally agree with the last…ugh.
jamie, no I don’t understand. If there were a lot of smokescreens put out, we’d know it in the form of reported courtships that never resulted in a signing, right?
At first glance the Eckstein courtship might appear to be a smokescreen to get Castillo to sign. But they actually wined and dined him in CT and reportedly there were legit reasons why the deal never materialized — a sky high contract demand and his desire to stay at shortstop. So I think their interest there was legit.
But we would probably have a few examples by now if Omar used real smokescreens in the past of the type you think he was using with Posada.
It may be unfair for me to criticize Omar for a deal he never made, but I think in the context of his record with older players, it’s inevitable here.
But sure, lets agree to disagree. :smile:
while still agreeing to disagree :-)…Dont we hear about those all the time? “team x was said to be interested in player y, but nothing ever came of it.”
I don’t doubt that their interest in Eckles was genuine, and - as much as I would’ve deplored signing him - I don’t fault omar for exploring the option. Which he also may have done with posada and his agent, but that, to me, doesn’t contitute (or necessarily even lend itself to) top-priority pursuit. And any conversations had would, again, benefit both the player and the Mets…posada has leverage with the yanks (where of course he wants to remain/retire), and omar is able to say to other agents that he’s got other options than whatever client they rep, so as not to be held over a barrel. Win-win, while never threatening anyone’s integrity.
I could be wrong, you could be right. And I really don’t think it’s unfair to criticize omar for a deal he never made at all…you’re right in that the body of work makes speculation as to intention valid. But that speculation is obviously subjective, and where one sees roses another may see thorns.
Yeah, we hear these scattered rumors all the time. But with Posada, it wasn’t just rumors. It was scheduled meetings and information from club sources reported by respected journalists like Madden. Very concrete stuff.
And even if the reports exaggerated the interest and it wasn’t exactly top priority,I still find the idea that they had serious interest in Posada very disturbing He would have been all wrong for the chemistry of the team, and another huge injury/health risk as soon as this year. And he had already been making around $11 million. So there was no way Omar thought he could get him for much less. I think the interest in Posada is just so typical of Omar’s disregard for age and health risks. If the Wilpons don’t seriously have a concern about this and/or Omar doesn’t change his strategies, then the Mets are doomed to never win a WS under his tenure. I am convinced of that.
well, considering the possibilities last year, if they explored a two year deal, I can understand that. Somehow, given the evidence to date, I think we ended up with the best answer for that particular position (though I was flummoxed at the time).
I don’t see that omar has a rigid methodology for team building. The clear examples for age and health are obviously Pedro and Castillo (and depending on your point of view, alou), and as you know (though I don’t remember if you advocate) the case for Pedro is that signing him re-legitimized the team. He’s made moves all over the board, and some worked, but others didn’t. Some seem clearly ill-advised. Which, again, is why I think much of your criticsm is valid. Just perhaps not in this particular case (VCarver vs. Omar and Posada).
please don’t be offended if I don’t reply anymore, it’s beer o’clock. LGM, happy to continue this another time
When Willie gets fired, we will all be glad and move on. And likely excited about moving on.
But soon enough, we will all begin to realize that it was the players themselves that got Willie fired. And any new manager coming in will have a big mess to clean up. A mess that WIllie couldn’t fix.
matt, where’s the option for bill webb & SNY? i can only assume you’re letting your affiliation cloud your judgement on where the real problem lies.
are you and Gip now dating?
jealous, sugarcube?
a little
lol
Hey now, Dykstraw, we said that “we” were on the down low!
what minaya (and wilpon for that matter) needs to do is not go by the IDIOTIC slotting system that they follow in the draft. im hearing they will once again adhere to mlb’s suggestions.
do you know how the yanks got joba and hughes? by paying over slot. all these other stud prospects that are in the majors before you know it were drafted by paying over slot. when will the mets stop drafting middle relievers in the early rounds and draft big time stud pitchers and hitters and pay premium prices.
they spend entirely ridiculous amounts and time signing 15 and 16 year olds in latin america, but completely neglect 22 year olds that can have an impct in one to two years.
the point is we have 4 of the best players in the game right now - wright, reyes, beltran, and santana - minaya has doen a hell of a job assembling a team with the right pieces. those four guys are superstars and should and could lead any team to a ring. adding the other pieces like wagner and church only helps. minaya is not to blame. sure the castillo thing is a mess, bu thats one move. its on willie - he not only subs peopple in and out and assembles a lineup, hes responsible for the clubhouse, and hes doign a terrible job. PERIOD.
I don’t know how many have said this or not, but without the superstars playing like superstars, of course this team looks horrible. Every team in baseball is built around cornerstones who are expected to carry the brunt of the load, and then complimentary pieces so fill it out. If DW, JR and CB were all in high-production mode, we’d be beating teams all over the field. But they’re not, currently, and so here we are.
What do you think Ollie Perez would fetch on the open market right now? If he’s expected to draw so much interest as a free agent, why wouldn’t he have trade value? Ollie’s mindset really changes this team’s psychological profile, in a bad, bad way. We might have to be creative but we could probably fetch serious prospect talent and/or payroll dump type of talent. We need to reshape now.
My thinking is also that we need to get younger. Too much veteran thinking someone said, too many over the hill bodies as well. Some of these guys like Castillo, if they don’t snap out of it, we’ll just need to release them and eat the ridiculous contract. The contract is a problem of our own making. Him playing bad baseball is doubling the damage and we have a choice about whether we let that happen.
Let’s stop picking scapegoats and just simply reward merit and punish bad performers. And no, NY doesn’t “deserve” a WS team every year. I just want the WIlpons and company to build a great organization. Championships will follow.
letzgometz, so why are we complaining about a .500 team.
Omar is not to blame. He’s trying to win. I’m sure you guys are all pining for Jim Duquette.
These types of arguments are such fallacies.
We hear this with Omar and Willie. People say, the team is so much better than the [insert Duquette or Steve Phillips or Art Howe or Mike Cubbage or George Bamburger here] era. Well, whoopty-do.
The point is not to exceed the level of play during the worst years of the franchise. The point is to raise the level of play to rival the best years of the franchise!
Yes, this team is better than the roster that Art Howe had. Then, shouldn’t our expectations be higher? For the team, the manager and the GM?
[For the record, I want to give Omar - without Bernazard - the opportunity to re-tool this team with a new manager.]
Is it too soon to wonder where the fans, SNY and the media are on this poll?
Yeah, too soon.