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Following up to yesterday’s comments by Jon Heyman on WFAN, in which he stated that the Mets do not view Aaron Heilman as a starter because “… he’s a two-pitch pitcher” and also because they think his “high elbow” throwing mechanics are conducive to injury. Heyman also added “…there is the fact that he does not have a great breaking pitch.”
I have several issues with these statements, and not sure whether to direct them to Mets officials or to Heyman. But here goes.
First, Heilman’s best two pitches are his sinking fastball and changeup. However, he also throws a forkball and a slider. That’s four pitches by my count.
Second, it’s true that Heilman’s mechanics are unusual, and they do look similar to the ever-injured Mark Prior’s. However, Heilman’s throwing motion also compares to those of Don Drysdale, who pitched for 14 seasons in MLB. (Yes, Drysdale did have shoulder issues, but he also threw 270 innings or more 9 times in his career. So was it the motion, or overuse?)
Finally, Heilman may not have a “great” breaking pitch, but he has a decent one — the aforementioned slider. It’s not a John Smoltz slider, but it’s certainly more reliable than Mike Pelfrey’s.
Which brings me to another point. If the Mets truly think Heilman can’t be a starter because he is a “two-pitch pitcher”, then I want to know the thought process behind forcing Mike Pelfrey into the starting rotation. Last I checked, Pelfrey is also a “two-pitch pitcher”, and his second pitch — the slider — is not “great”. Pelfrey also does not have an offspeed pitch, while Heilman throws two (changeup and forkball).
Maybe Heilman and Pelfrey should swap roles.
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a forkball? why he doesnt use it, hitters are sitting on his fastball and changeup. he should also throw his slider more often
Because it sucks, just like his slider does.
That’s what Joe Janish is missing…sure he knows how to throw those pitches. They’re just not any good.
That’s why he’s gotten the label of being a 2 pitch pitcher….because those are the only Major League caliber pitches he has.
As for the Pelfrey to the bullpen part, he’s missing that Pelfrey wouldn’t be a good fit for the bullpen because his main issue isn’t the stuff, it’s the lack of command of the stuff. Until he learns how to throw strikes he will be useless in the MLB, in any capacity.
It does not matter. I disagree with this comment. “Hellman” sucks. Enough said.
What i find amazing is how people can quickly forget that it was HEILMAN who gave up a hr to yadier molina in game 7 of the nlcs.
Does ANYONE here REMEMBERS tHAT
DAM HEILMAN SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why does Pelfrey continually get an opportunity to start but Heilman doesn’t? Simple…Omar drafted Pelfrey but not Heilman. End of discussion.
I don’t buy it. It’s too simplistic.
How about this. Omar not only drafted Pelfrey but he gave him what I believe was the biggest signing bonus in Mets rookie history.
Got that right. Omar has always shown a preference for players he 1) drafted or traded for himself or 2) he had when he was GM of the expos.
The result has been negligence and undervaluing of talent that was already in the system when he took over from Duquette, hence the loss of Bannister, Lindstrom, and Flores with virtually nothing coming back in return.
you mean our general manager has a plan of what constitutes a good ballplayer, and he looks for guys and favors guys that fit into that mold?
All general managers have a “plan” of what in their mind constitutes a good ballplayer and look for guys that fit into that mold.
Whether they “favor” those guys to the point where they overlook other players who are worthy of consideration is another matter.
A good GM is smart enough and broad minded enough to be able to evaluate the worth of players regardless of whether they fit into his specific mold, and to receive appropriate market value back for that player if he doesn’t fit his plans.
That didn’t happen with Bannister, Lindstrom or Flores.
Moreover, if a GM’s particular “plan” of what constitutes a good player continually fizzles out while the talent he let get away because it didn’t fit his plan ends up to have more value than the talent he got back in return, then that GM deserves to be taken to task for his “plan” (judgment)..
Joba is gonna start, Dempster is back starting again, Smoltz moves back and forth from starter to Bullpen like the sun comes up and damn even Braden Looper has a winning record as a starter. Just give the guy a chance. He was once good in the 8th and now he isn’t. Last time i checked we don’t have many talented starters anyway. You have to say its really hard to pitch in the Mets bullpen no one gets out of the 6th inning ever
After watching Heilman and his wonderous performance this year, I’ve figured out the perfect plan to really give Shea a nice farewell. You see, the day we implode Shea, Aaron Heilman will recieve a sudden phone call about him possibly starting next year. Forgetting the events that would happen later, Heilman would crawl out of his cardboard box under the 7 train and run back to Shea, displaying the first hustle anyone has seen from him. Upon reaching the gate, there will be a sign, “Starters’ Meeting, 1 PM, PR Room.” Since Heilman has always been wrapped in a sheet and ushered out of the clubhouse to avoid the press in all possible ways, he won’t have a clue where to go. After wondering the tunnels of a now gutted Shea for almost an hour, he’ll find the door to the PR room, with Gary Carter inside. “This the starters’ meeting?” Heilman will ask. “Starters’ Meeting? I thought this was about me managing next year.” A collective “Uh-oh” will follow gulps, as the rumblings of the dynamite shake through the walls. Back outside, at home plate of Citi Field, David Wright and Jose Reyes will be smiling with construction hats, holding the detonator’s plunger. “Anyone seen Heilman? He’s supposed to pick up my dry cleaning,” says a cheerful Santana. “No…” the left side of the infield will reply.
Shea will be buried with its best memories and the fans worst nightmares.
Not even remotely funny.
Show some class.
probably took a lot of your time and effort to come up with this. who knows, might’ve been in your mind for a while now, just waiting for the perfect opportunity to share it with the world, who was sure to laugh and marvel at your ability entertain the masses with you talent and wit. What a disappointment eh? probably what the producers of Gigli thought as well. Stick to the day job.
Oh, and you might want to at least get the facts correct. Heilman is always available for the media after games, win or lose.
You want to kill Heilman and Carter?
Maybe you should root for another team…
btw…Shea will not be imploded. It will be taken down piece by piece. You can’t implode buildings in NYC.
Loser. You are pathetic and disgusting. I’m still in F$@kING shock that you exist, that you took the time to write this horses*&t down, and that you actually had the balls and the bad taste to think it was worth sharing with the rest of us. It’s rare that you come accross an attempt at creativity sooo offensively stupid and annoying that you start to question the merits of having freedom of speech. I’d give up some of my own rights if it would guarantee that you never speak or write in a public forum again. It’s weird, creepy, morons like you that actually do blow things up while innocent people are inside.
“Life’s short and hard like a bodybuilding elf so save the planet and kill yourself!”-The Bloodhound Gang.
Despite the bad taste which this post displays, I do not understand how the writer is coming under so much fire. I believe I sense a few shreds of jealousy, that your own writing skills do not compare.
And c’mon, like you haven’t contemplated getting rid of Heilman, in one way or another…
This comment is very, very hurtful.
i have to go home and cry to my mommy now…
Pelfrey is basically a 1 pitch pitcher. Hes not gonna have a chance until he develops something else
yeah i understand the whole things stupid and none of the facts are right and i would never kill gary carter (but maybe heilman)
but overall thankyou or your positiveness, its really great
you’re a loser
what?
You’re a F+%king LOSER!
good blog….I wish Heilman would use all his pitches…I remember back 2006 Darren Oliver attributed his success to throwing all his pitches instead on focusing on two….Sanchez throws at least three..Smith throws three…Feliciano throws three..Wagner throws three….see a theme here….Heilman just needs to throw his other pitches gain more coinfidence in them and member his success will last longer then two outings….As far as Pelfrey I blame Rick Peterson for selving the Curveball for the popular slider….. and he sure has not helped him with his off speed stuff.
His Curve was awful as well…..I guess you could argue the devil you know is better then the devil you don’t know….but it’s not like the curve was ever a quality offering that people should be furious about Pelfrey scrapping it.
I dont think wagner throws anything other than fastball slider…i heard he had a changeup that glavine helped him with but i dont recall him using it in a game yet..does anyone know if he has? Because if it’s a good pitch maybe we can just use him every relief inning haha. Jk of course…that would solve some problems if it was possible
Last night should function as an indication of how many close appearances Heilman can make without being overused. I can’t comment with such confidence about Pelfrey’s problems except to say that I remain as unimpressed by him this year as during last year’s 0-7 start.
hey look we get the Sunday funnies with the Sat blog, just like with the newspaper…
I have been saying this since before 2006. Heilman has to go. He needs to be pitching for a team like Kansas City or the Nationals at best. He is worse than Delgado, Schoeneweis, Pelfrey and Castillo. I’m sick of the people at WFAN constantly saying that Heilman isn’t that bad and that he “pitched well”. EHe needs to leave this team by the All Star Break. The 2008 Mets do not score more than 5 runs a game. If this is going to be the case then the team needs a strong bullpen to stop teams like the Phillies.
They’ve been mishandling Heilman ever since 2005 when he tweaked his arm angle with good results.
The argument that his secondary pitches aren’t major league caliber is a stupid argument since only through throwing them repeatedly at the major league level will they have a chance to become major league caliber pitches.
It was fine to keep Heilman in the bullpen for short stretches of time or for parts of 2005, but that year and subsequent years when they had a need for more depth in the rotation they should have turned to Heilman instead of the endless parade of rejects who flamed out and ended up hurting the club.
Now it’s gotten to the point where he’s useless in the pen and hurting the team there, yet they won’t even consider an alternative that has him stretching out his arm to be used as a possible starter or even simply in long relief.
They have nothing to lose except face — because if he’s successful as a starter they will look like dopes for having denied him the opportunity for so long.
i agree VCarver with everything you said. What the heck is it gonna hurt to give Heilman another try in the rotation?? Its not like he could do any worse than Pelfrey.
if heilman can’t even pitch one inning without giving up a bunch of runs, what makes you think he’ll be able to pitch 6 or 7 innings effectively
Hell, he’s done it in the past. What makes you think that he can’t do it again?
As a starter he’d use a wider variety of pitches than he’s using now, and he’d have an opportunity to further refine them.
And if he’s more comfortable and motivated as a starter, that could result in a higher level of performance.
“Heilman’s throwing motion also compares to those of Don Drysdale, who pitched for 14 seasons in MLB.”
As a guy who is very interested in pitching mechanics, Drysdale and Bert Blyleven (who also got his elbow up REALLY high) are exceptions in the extreme with regards to a phenomenon known as hyperabduction. Both pronated their pitches to an extreme (something Heilman does not do) and had excellent arm action timing (something Heilman does not have). Hyperabduction is when a pitcher gets his elbow above the level of his shoulders during his scap load. While certain pitchers like Josh Beckett, Don Sutton, Jon Lester, Chad Billingsley, and Johan Santana use something known as “borderline hyperabduction,” they can generally pitch through this unless they’re in really bad physical shape (which is why Freddy Garcia went to pieces). And Heilman is FAR from borderline. Not only does he get his elbow above the level of his shoulder, but he gets it BEHIND his shoulders.
This combination is extremely risky for a pitcher’s shoulder and elbow. This “above and behind” (which is sometimes known as the “M” scap load position) destroyed the careers so far of Mark Prior, Shane Reynolds (promising pitcher with Houston around 1999-2000), Scott Williamson, Bobby Madritsch, Jose Jimenez, Steve Avery, and Floyd Youmans, among others. It’s also been a bane to the careers of pitchers such as El Duque, Chad Cordero, Anthony Reyes, Kerry Wood, B.J. Ryan, Brandon McCarthy, Ambiorix Burgos (before someone on the Mets realized what a complete trainwreck he was and just completely redesigned his mechanics…alas, a little too late due to the horrid mechanics he used in KC) and Francisco Liriano.
Francisco Liriano is the guy I’d compare Heilman to right now. Before the Twins redesigned his mechanics to a less injury-prone set, his mechanics were SO bad that there was a danger of him actually throwing a slider due to the high speed supination involved. Normally, with even decent mechanics, supinating (vs. pronating) your breaking balls is what you SHOULD be doing. But with a poor enough arm action, that supination starts hurting you. When Liriano threw so many sliders in 2006, he basically ripped up the tendons in his elbow. If you have Heilman with a similar (actually slightly worse) arm action throwing a high-speed-supination breaking pitch like the slider or cutter, I would expect the exact same results.
wow - great post. thanks for the breakdown.
nice post man…it was really insightful. Is that the same reason kids are having tommy john’s surgery when they’re like 12 now? It’s pretty depressing that there will probably never be another 300 game winning because of kids hurting themselves early in their career
Thanks! I think one of the big problems these days is the obsession with velocity, which leads to severe hyperabduction (you CAN pitch faster with it in certain cases) and the “M” scap load position. Look at almost any pitcher from about 1980 and before that had a career lasting longer than 10 years as a full time starter. Odds are his elbow is even with or below the level of his shoulder AND he scap loads by bringing his arm across the back of his body, swinging his arm backwards, or e