|
|
|
Following up to yesterday’s comments by Jon Heyman on WFAN, in which he stated that the Mets do not view Aaron Heilman as a starter because “… he’s a two-pitch pitcher” and also because they think his “high elbow” throwing mechanics are conducive to injury. Heyman also added “…there is the fact that he does not have a great breaking pitch.”
I have several issues with these statements, and not sure whether to direct them to Mets officials or to Heyman. But here goes.
First, Heilman’s best two pitches are his sinking fastball and changeup. However, he also throws a forkball and a slider. That’s four pitches by my count.
Second, it’s true that Heilman’s mechanics are unusual, and they do look similar to the ever-injured Mark Prior’s. However, Heilman’s throwing motion also compares to those of Don Drysdale, who pitched for 14 seasons in MLB. (Yes, Drysdale did have shoulder issues, but he also threw 270 innings or more 9 times in his career. So was it the motion, or overuse?)
Finally, Heilman may not have a “great” breaking pitch, but he has a decent one — the aforementioned slider. It’s not a John Smoltz slider, but it’s certainly more reliable than Mike Pelfrey’s.
Which brings me to another point. If the Mets truly think Heilman can’t be a starter because he is a “two-pitch pitcher”, then I want to know the thought process behind forcing Mike Pelfrey into the starting rotation. Last I checked, Pelfrey is also a “two-pitch pitcher”, and his second pitch — the slider — is not “great”. Pelfrey also does not have an offspeed pitch, while Heilman throws two (changeup and forkball).
Maybe Heilman and Pelfrey should swap roles.
 |
 |
 |
RSS 2.0 Both comments and pings are currently closed.
a forkball? why he doesnt use it, hitters are sitting on his fastball and changeup. he should also throw his slider more often
Because it sucks, just like his slider does.
That’s what Joe Janish is missing…sure he knows how to throw those pitches. They’re just not any good.
That’s why he’s gotten the label of being a 2 pitch pitcher….because those are the only Major League caliber pitches he has.
As for the Pelfrey to the bullpen part, he’s missing that Pelfrey wouldn’t be a good fit for the bullpen because his main issue isn’t the stuff, it’s the lack of command of the stuff. Until he learns how to throw strikes he will be useless in the MLB, in any capacity.
It does not matter. I disagree with this comment. “Hellman” sucks. Enough said.
What i find amazing is how people can quickly forget that it was HEILMAN who gave up a hr to yadier molina in game 7 of the nlcs.
Does ANYONE here REMEMBERS tHAT
DAM HEILMAN SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why does Pelfrey continually get an opportunity to start but Heilman doesn’t? Simple…Omar drafted Pelfrey but not Heilman. End of discussion.
I don’t buy it. It’s too simplistic.
How about this. Omar not only drafted Pelfrey but he gave him what I believe was the biggest signing bonus in Mets rookie history.
Got that right. Omar has always shown a preference for players he 1) drafted or traded for himself or 2) he had when he was GM of the expos.
The result has been negligence and undervaluing of talent that was already in the system when he took over from Duquette, hence the loss of Bannister, Lindstrom, and Flores with virtually nothing coming back in return.
you mean our general manager has a plan of what constitutes a good ballplayer, and he looks for guys and favors guys that fit into that mold?
All general managers have a “plan” of what in their mind constitutes a good ballplayer and look for guys that fit into that mold.
Whether they “favor” those guys to the point where they overlook other players who are worthy of consideration is another matter.
A good GM is smart enough and broad minded enough to be able to evaluate the worth of players regardless of whether they fit into his specific mold, and to receive appropriate market value back for that player if he doesn’t fit his plans.
That didn’t happen with Bannister, Lindstrom or Flores.
Moreover, if a GM’s particular “plan” of what constitutes a good player continually fizzles out while the talent he let get away because it didn’t fit his plan ends up to have more value than the talent he got back in return, then that GM deserves to be taken to task for his “plan” (judgment)..
Joba is gonna start, Dempster is back starting again, Smoltz moves back and forth from starter to Bullpen like the sun comes up and damn even Braden Looper has a winning record as a starter. Just give the guy a chance. He was once good in the 8th and now he isn’t. Last time i checked we don’t have many talented starters anyway. You have to say its really hard to pitch in the Mets bullpen no one gets out of the 6th inning ever
After watching Heilman and his wonderous performance this year, I’ve figured out the perfect plan to really give Shea a nice farewell. You see, the day we implode Shea, Aaron Heilman will recieve a sudden phone call about him possibly starting next year. Forgetting the events that would happen later, Heilman would crawl out of his cardboard box under the 7 train and run back to Shea, displaying the first hustle anyone has seen from him. Upon reaching the gate, there will be a sign, “Starters’ Meeting, 1 PM, PR Room.” Since Heilman has always been wrapped in a sheet and ushered out of the clubhouse to avoid the press in all possible ways, he won’t have a clue where to go. After wondering the tunnels of a now gutted Shea for almost an hour, he’ll find the door to the PR room, with Gary Carter inside. “This the starters’ meeting?” Heilman will ask. “Starters’ Meeting? I thought this was about me managing next year.” A collective “Uh-oh” will follow gulps, as the rumblings of the dynamite shake through the walls. Back outside, at home plate of Citi Field, David Wright and Jose Reyes will be smiling with construction hats, holding the detonator’s plunger. “Anyone seen Heilman? He’s supposed to pick up my dry cleaning,” says a cheerful Santana. “No…” the left side of the infield will reply.
Shea will be buried with its best memories and the fans worst nightmares.
Not even remotely funny.
Show some class.
probably took a lot of your time and effort to come up with this. who knows, might’ve been in your mind for a while now, just waiting for the perfect opportunity to share it with the world, who was sure to laugh and marvel at your ability entertain the masses with you talent and wit. What a disappointment eh? probably what the producers of Gigli thought as well. Stick to the day job.
Oh, and you might want to at least get the facts correct. Heilman is always available for the media after games, win or lose.
You want to kill Heilman and Carter?
Maybe you should root for another team…
btw…Shea will not be imploded. It will be taken down piece by piece. You can’t implode buildings in NYC.
Loser. You are pathetic and disgusting. I’m still in F$@kING shock that you exist, that you took the time to write this horses*&t down, and that you actually had the balls and the bad taste to think it was worth sharing with the rest of us. It’s rare that you come accross an attempt at creativity sooo offensively stupid and annoying that you start to question the merits of having freedom of speech. I’d give up some of my own rights if it would guarantee that you never speak or write in a public forum again. It’s weird, creepy, morons like you that actually do blow things up while innocent people are inside.
“Life’s short and hard like a bodybuilding elf so save the planet and kill yourself!”-The Bloodhound Gang.
Despite the bad taste which this post displays, I do not understand how the writer is coming under so much fire. I believe I sense a few shreds of jealousy, that your own writing skills do not compare.
And c’mon, like you haven’t contemplated getting rid of Heilman, in one way or another…
This comment is very, very hurtful.
i have to go home and cry to my mommy now…
Pelfrey is basically a 1 pitch pitcher. Hes not gonna have a chance until he develops something else
yeah i understand the whole things stupid and none of the facts are right and i would never kill gary carter (but maybe heilman)
but overall thankyou or your positiveness, its really great
you’re a loser
what?
You’re a F+%king LOSER!
good blog….I wish Heilman would use all his pitches…I remember back 2006 Darren Oliver attributed his success to throwing all his pitches instead on focusing on two….Sanchez throws at least three..Smith throws three…Feliciano throws three..Wagner throws three….see a theme here….Heilman just needs to throw his other pitches gain more coinfidence in them and member his success will last longer then two outings….As far as Pelfrey I blame Rick Peterson for selving the Curveball for the popular slider….. and he sure has not helped him with his off speed stuff.
His Curve was awful as well…..I guess you could argue the devil you know is better then the devil you don’t know….but it’s not like the curve was ever a quality offering that people should be furious about Pelfrey scrapping it.
I dont think wagner throws anything other than fastball slider…i heard he had a changeup that glavine helped him with but i dont recall him using it in a game yet..does anyone know if he has? Because if it’s a good pitch maybe we can just use him every relief inning haha. Jk of course…that would solve some problems if it was possible
Last night should function as an indication of how many close appearances Heilman can make without being overused. I can’t comment with such confidence about Pelfrey’s problems except to say that I remain as unimpressed by him this year as during last year’s 0-7 start.
hey look we get the Sunday funnies with the Sat blog, just like with the newspaper…
I have been saying this since before 2006. Heilman has to go. He needs to be pitching for a team like Kansas City or the Nationals at best. He is worse than Delgado, Schoeneweis, Pelfrey and Castillo. I’m sick of the people at WFAN constantly saying that Heilman isn’t that bad and that he “pitched well”. EHe needs to leave this team by the All Star Break. The 2008 Mets do not score more than 5 runs a game. If this is going to be the case then the team needs a strong bullpen to stop teams like the Phillies.
They’ve been mishandling Heilman ever since 2005 when he tweaked his arm angle with good results.
The argument that his secondary pitches aren’t major league caliber is a stupid argument since only through throwing them repeatedly at the major league level will they have a chance to become major league caliber pitches.
It was fine to keep Heilman in the bullpen for short stretches of time or for parts of 2005, but that year and subsequent years when they had a need for more depth in the rotation they should have turned to Heilman instead of the endless parade of rejects who flamed out and ended up hurting the club.
Now it’s gotten to the point where he’s useless in the pen and hurting the team there, yet they won’t even consider an alternative that has him stretching out his arm to be used as a possible starter or even simply in long relief.
They have nothing to lose except face — because if he’s successful as a starter they will look like dopes for having denied him the opportunity for so long.
i agree VCarver with everything you said. What the heck is it gonna hurt to give Heilman another try in the rotation?? Its not like he could do any worse than Pelfrey.
if heilman can’t even pitch one inning without giving up a bunch of runs, what makes you think he’ll be able to pitch 6 or 7 innings effectively
Hell, he’s done it in the past. What makes you think that he can’t do it again?
As a starter he’d use a wider variety of pitches than he’s using now, and he’d have an opportunity to further refine them.
And if he’s more comfortable and motivated as a starter, that could result in a higher level of performance.
“Heilman’s throwing motion also compares to those of Don Drysdale, who pitched for 14 seasons in MLB.”
As a guy who is very interested in pitching mechanics, Drysdale and Bert Blyleven (who also got his elbow up REALLY high) are exceptions in the extreme with regards to a phenomenon known as hyperabduction. Both pronated their pitches to an extreme (something Heilman does not do) and had excellent arm action timing (something Heilman does not have). Hyperabduction is when a pitcher gets his elbow above the level of his shoulders during his scap load. While certain pitchers like Josh Beckett, Don Sutton, Jon Lester, Chad Billingsley, and Johan Santana use something known as “borderline hyperabduction,” they can generally pitch through this unless they’re in really bad physical shape (which is why Freddy Garcia went to pieces). And Heilman is FAR from borderline. Not only does he get his elbow above the level of his shoulder, but he gets it BEHIND his shoulders.
This combination is extremely risky for a pitcher’s shoulder and elbow. This “above and behind” (which is sometimes known as the “M” scap load position) destroyed the careers so far of Mark Prior, Shane Reynolds (promising pitcher with Houston around 1999-2000), Scott Williamson, Bobby Madritsch, Jose Jimenez, Steve Avery, and Floyd Youmans, among others. It’s also been a bane to the careers of pitchers such as El Duque, Chad Cordero, Anthony Reyes, Kerry Wood, B.J. Ryan, Brandon McCarthy, Ambiorix Burgos (before someone on the Mets realized what a complete trainwreck he was and just completely redesigned his mechanics…alas, a little too late due to the horrid mechanics he used in KC) and Francisco Liriano.
Francisco Liriano is the guy I’d compare Heilman to right now. Before the Twins redesigned his mechanics to a less injury-prone set, his mechanics were SO bad that there was a danger of him actually throwing a slider due to the high speed supination involved. Normally, with even decent mechanics, supinating (vs. pronating) your breaking balls is what you SHOULD be doing. But with a poor enough arm action, that supination starts hurting you. When Liriano threw so many sliders in 2006, he basically ripped up the tendons in his elbow. If you have Heilman with a similar (actually slightly worse) arm action throwing a high-speed-supination breaking pitch like the slider or cutter, I would expect the exact same results.
wow – great post. thanks for the breakdown.
nice post man…it was really insightful. Is that the same reason kids are having tommy john’s surgery when they’re like 12 now? It’s pretty depressing that there will probably never be another 300 game winning because of kids hurting themselves early in their career
Thanks! I think one of the big problems these days is the obsession with velocity, which leads to severe hyperabduction (you CAN pitch faster with it in certain cases) and the “M” scap load position. Look at almost any pitcher from about 1980 and before that had a career lasting longer than 10 years as a full time starter. Odds are his elbow is even with or below the level of his shoulder AND he scap loads by bringing his arm across the back of his body, swinging his arm backwards, or even some unorthodox but safe method that doesn’t involve getting the shoulder up that high.
much thanks for taking the time to impart this info. Very insightful.
No problem. I really like researching pitching mechanics, especially on individual pitchers. I do this BECAUSE I was injured in high school due to terrible mechanics. I had a poor arm action, injurious scap load, and poor timing. I’m currently trying to come back on an amateur league level as a low sidearm/submarine pitcher (mechanics modelled on but not identical to Cla Meredith of the San Diego Padres).
Nice to see somebody who actually knows what he’s talking about around these parts . . .
Thanks! But I get back to being a know-nothing rah-rah when it comes to hitting. ;)
I actually teach pitching mechanics, and coached pitchers at the NCAA D-1 level, with several of my subjects moving on to pro ball. None of my pitchers suffered major arm injuries nor required surgery — that’s something I’m proud of.
I do agree that Heilman’s mechanics are far from ideal, but they work for him. I wouldn’t teach his motion to anyone, but it’s gotten him this far without major issues — save for minor elbow surgery after the 2006 season which I’m convinced had more to do with overuse than anything.
Yes, several pitchers with similar arm action to Heilman have had major injuries. And you point out excellent points. Again, I’d never teach anyone to get that high with the elbow nor pinch the shoulder blades. However, dozens (maybe hundreds?) of pitchers with “good” mechanics have also suffered rotator cuff tears, torn labrums, needed TJ surgery, etc. In other words, there’s no guarantee one way or the other that a particular throwing motion is going to cause or not cause an injury. Some guys can do just fine with “bad” mechanics, others can’t. Steve Carlton comes to mind as a guy who should have suffered chronic arm injuries due to the way he threw across his body, but never did. Everyone is different.
Heilman would be fine with more structured, consistent work (i.e., starting). His major issues with control, and leaving the ball up, are due to fatigue, and his arm angle at the release point dropping a few inches — the hand gets under the ball, the ball goes up. When he’s strong, the fingers stay on top, the ball goes down.
Good stuff, Necciai … nice to know there are fans out there paying attention to these things. Good luck with the comeback!
Thanks for the response, Joe (and the well-wishes)! You make an excellent point about Steve Carlton, but the fact is, Lefty’s slider was NOT a traditional slider. Check out his website and you’ll find the grip is a far cry from anything we think of today as a slider. It falls somewhere inbetween “slurve” and “screwball.” Carlton was a complete oddity in the way that he threw that pitch (and if you’ll note from his description, he seems to have supinated the pitch far less than a current slider…more on the level of a curve).
Also, Heilman HAS had chronic tendonitis since about 2005. Whether that’s from overuse (a very real problem and one I think is what hurts guys with otherwise good mechanics) or from his mechanics, there’s unfortunately no way to tell. But I wouldn’t think his current set would be actively helping said tendonitis.
I also agree with this statement, but believe you’re leaving something out…
“Heilman would be fine with more structured, consistent work (i.e., starting). His major issues with control, and leaving the ball up, are due to fatigue, and his arm angle at the release point dropping a few inches — the hand gets under the ball, the ball goes up. When he’s strong, the fingers stay on top, the ball goes down.”
That’s all fine and good, but what about a breaking pitch? A forkball (NOT a splitter) CAN serve as a substitute for a true breaking ball (just ask Roy Face, Dave Stewart, or Bruce Hurst), but it has to be a very GOOD forkball. Unfortunately, Heilman’s forkball is pretty pedestrian in quality and I doubt it could serve as a breaking pitch substitute.
What then if he does throw the slider? I still think he suffers serious injury. While he did throw a slider as a starter, he didn’t throw it very much. Not as little as he does now, but still relatively little. He instead threw more of the forkball.
He’s almost in a catch-22 here. Would he be better as a starter? Certainly. He has the mentality. But would he last long relying on his current breaking ball? I very much doubt it. Frankly, I’d like to see Heilman traded. Not for junk, but for value. I’d like to see him go to some team where he can start and perhaps learn a curve (which Rick Peterson doesn’t seem to teach; rather he advocates the slurve) or other easier breaking pitch. As a sidearmer, Heilman’s slider is already likely closer to a slurve than a true slider and I doubt Peterson could help him there.
agreed. swap pelfrey and heilman.
i’d like to see them send Heilman to aaa for some starts.
Whats pelfrey’s era with men on base? He’s got plenty of experience now with runners on. I’d like to see him come in late in games with runners on to get the groundball, dp ball. Heilman’s not getting them. Seems he gives up long long flyballs, instead of getting grounders.. but i don’t have the data to support these claims.
Excuse me if I have absolutely zero confidence in the thoughts of Mets officials regarding pitchers.
Well, I’m not a Mets official and I can see that there are some pretty darn serious problems with Heilman’s mechanics (see above). My mechanical theories, FWIW, are NOT garnered from Rick Peterson. I frankly think Pelfrey should be replaced in the rotation by Tony Armas if he can’t put it together (check out Armas’ stats, even if they are AAA). But there is no way in heck that Heilman can be an effective starter and even remotely stay close to healthy for a period exceeding one year. Period.
And no one should believe that crap that Heilman is happy with his current role. At best he tolerates it and is professional about it. But no one who instructs his agent to talk to Omar to request a role change and who has to be talked to by the likes of Wagner and Glavine about accepting his fate can be very happy with his current job. Add to that the booing by the fans and he is probably as dissatisfied with relieving as ever.
Aaron Heiman would be happy as a starter for the Kansas City Royals. So would true Mets fans
Always love the posts from random people outlining who the “true” Mets fans are.
Who are the “false” Mets fans?
This is is ridiculous that pelf is still in the rotation. move him to the pen. maybe he turns into paplebon or krod two once starting pitchers. Aaron heilman once threw a one hitter. Give him this opportunity his confidence will go through the roof.
i’d be ecstatic if pelfrey turned into farnsworth at this point…
Krod wasn’t a starter in the majors, he came in as a setup man in the playoffs in 02 when the angels won it all.
The only thing ridiculous is the idiots who think making a starter into a reliever is as simple as keeping him in the bullpen. Joba is an exception, not the rule.
Enough with the “Move Pelfrey to the Pen” crap. There’s the issue of arm elasticity.
Elasticity? Well, why don’t we move him there anyway, & then see if his arm is elastic enough to grab the rosin bag off the mound.
arm elasticity is crap.
Not really. It’s extremely important during the formative years (about 12-22 years old, depending on how you’re built, though it’s most critical in almost all cases at ages 14-18). There are plenty of studies of Japanese pitchers on no pitch counts at all that regularly throw into the 140-150 pitch range over there. Cuban pitchers typically don’t use pitch counts and I’ve heard estimates ranging as high as 175 pitches per start on occassion for some of the “rubber-armed” guys. It’s likely the reason why pitchers during the dead ball era could throw 200 pitches a game. But with a guy like Pelfrey? He’s already been stretched and has fundamentally very good mechanics.
Pelfrey was throwing a change-up last year and earlier this year, but I did not see any agst the Marlins on Monday. You almost want him to get racked again today so they send him down. Enough is enough.
True Mets fans realize that Aaron Heilman is more of a cancer than Delgado. At least Delgado can contribute with a sac fly once in a while. Heilman can do nothing but lose important games. And when he “pitches well” it doesn’t matter anyway. Stop believing in this guy and send him away. He will continue to blow games.
Delgado and Heilman are “cancers”??? Didn’t you try to shove this garbage in our faces on a different thread yesterday and no one agreed ??
Why does there always seems to be at least one dude a day here that thinks they know what a “true Met fan” is? And it is particulalry laughable when that dude hurls vicious labels on two players and then finishes up by insisting we stop “believing” in them . If *that’s* a true fan than I am glad i am not one.
Stop talking about “true Mets fans.”
Joe, you cannot seriously try to compare Heilman to Drysdale. Your youth and inexperience are showing.
Their pitching mechanics are relatively similar, although Drysdale’s were significantly better in that he had far better arm action timing and a way more consistent delivery. However, I agree, any and all similarity ends there. Because Mike Pelfrey’s mechanics actually remind me a lot of a young, pre-roids Roger Clemens (I’d be laughed off the board if I attempted to make any other comparison between the two)…
i say why not, obiously what is going on now isnt working on a consistent basis. just like benching delgado lets shake things up and see what happens. who knows made he will work out as a starter. pelfrey isnt consistently doing great so why not!
trade heilman for kazmir
It really doesn’t help Heilman that he’s beeing grossly misused within his role. I mean, he really shouldn’t have been pitching the night after a two-inning appearance — especially a successful one.
I do think that if cultivated Aaron Heilman can be a fantastic starting pitcher not just for the Mets but for any NY team. My thinking is this – when he starts a game, the pressure is off. There is no one on base, there are no runs, no errors, no hits. He has a clean slate. It’s when he comes into a game with runners on, with a short lead, etc that’s when he gets nervous. Most Aaron’s problems are in his head. His stuff is nasty when he’s on his game. I will always point to the 1-hitter in 2005 against the Marlins – THAT was the Heilman we should see. he does not have the mental make up to be a reliever – that my friends is the issue. Not his number of pitches. If that’s the case, Pelf should be in the BP. End of story. Boom. (good job Joe!)
I’ve never had confidence in Heilman. Last-year isn’t long ago at all, however, it will last long enough, and I’ll never forget.
Heilman has given-up more home-runs during his one-inning, three-out bullpen responsibility that I can handle. Too many important games have been wasted due to this guy alone. The Metropolitans can surely survive without him.
Funny how some people may only remember Beltran’s frozen look as he looks at strike-three during a game that could’ve made the Mets World Series bound. Yes, it’s heartbreaking to see a player of his caliber—in a huge spot—forget to swing; however, I must shift the most blame to a pitcher who gives up the biggest home-run he’ll hopefully ever give up as a Met.