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For the record, I do not want the Mets to fire Willie Randolph, if for no other reason than I do not understand how he or any other manager is going to make Carlos Delgado turn quicker on an inside fastball, or make Jose Reyes keep his elbow in, or make Moises Alou younger and healthier, or make David Wright stop swinging at pitches out of the strike zone, or give Luis Castillo new knees.
I like Willie. He is not the greatest baseball mind of all time, but I do not think that is necessary.
Randolph was a blue collar, scrappy, under-appreciated competitor – like the Mets – always playing second-fiddle to the more popular, more expensive Dave Winfield and Reggie Jackson.
As a player, Randolph was well-respected for his hustle, hard-nosed style and his consistent play, while Winfield and Jackson, like the Yankees to the Mets, were glitzy, powerful and mainstays among the national conversation.
On the day he took over as General Manager, Omar Minaya promised that he would build a young, athletic, hard-working, sustainable team, with a strong minor league system, that could compete for a decade, ‘like the Braves.’
He has not done that, mostly because he was charged with bringing instant credibility to a struggling organization – and I’m not sure he could ‘win now’ and ‘build for tomorrow’ all in one motion. In other words, ‘Minaya did what he had to do,’ by relying on ‘aging, injured, unproductive and expensive players,’ as John Delcos wrote today on his blog for the Journal News.
However, had Minaya stuck to his initial philosophy, I believe Randolph would be considered among the best managers in baseball right now, instead of fearing for his job, because he embodies a gritty, New York, blue-collar sensibility that is making a come back in Major League Baseball.
u must be kidding. willie is a horrible manager and must go.
YOUR opinion
And not a very good one at that.
It’s a pretty valid opinion considering even a post that begs to keep him can only talk about his playing days and non-managerial attributes.
A new manager could have benched Carlos Delgado before people sat him down and told him to, can get through to Jose Reyes on a personal level better to help, amongst other things, his elbow, or could rest David Wright for an inning.
Additionally, a new manager could ignite these players on some level, because you can blame Omar all you want for Castillo and Alou, but the bottom line is that when every single player is not playing to their prior stats and is not hustling or concentrating as well as they once did in their career before playig for Willie Randolph, it is not Omar Minaya’s fault.
What is Omar Minaya’s fault is hiring Willie Randolph. This is his chance to redeem that misstep. Randolph does not know the Xs and Os and has lost the clubhouse. Anyone who doubts that and believes that the players really like him as much as they say through their teeth have their opinion I guess. But from the way they play for him I believe otherwise.
One thing I will say tho, is that they CAN win with Randolph, but only if he wins back the clubhouse, and that cannot happen with the Wilpons undermining Omar’s support. They have to either give him the year to get this team to play up to their capabilities or fire him now. Say all you want about the job Omar did this year, EVERYONE agrees that age or not this is a quality team that should not finish below .500, and right now that’s where Willie has them.
Well said, ridethesnake. I agree 100%. As you said, even with all of Omar’s mistakes, the Mets are still underperforming. So, Willie needs to go and be replaced by a manager who can get his players to play to their level of talent, or above it. Once that happens, we can begin to evaluate whether Omar is capable of providing a competent manager with a quality, championship-caliber team.
The Best post ever. I totally agree. If any one that should be held accountable, It should Be OMAR MINAYA….
Enough said …..LETS GO METS!!!!
its not willie’s fault, he dosent pitch,hit or catch the ball. he can only put iut ther what was given to him !! no one complained about him in 2006!!
Yes, that is Willie’s job to get them to play more focused and concentrate. If they were not talented that’s another story, but when Jose Reyes has 14 errors and Carlos Beltran has 6 HR, something else is going on beyond the person gathering the talented players.
Plenty of people complained in 2006 about Willie’s managerial style. It’s finally coming through in wins and losses now.
Reyes is young maybe he’s just lacking concentration naturally and right now he’s on a tear offensively, if you’re going to blame the errors on Willie then he should get credit for Reyes’s sudden turn around offensively. And save the last two years Beltran has never been a power hitter, more than likely the last two years were anomalies, and now Beltran is back to his career hr numbers. Plus the lack of protection behind Beltran probably isn’t helping and there’s nothing Willie can do about that when he just doesn’t have any players who are hitting for power.
This is Reyes’ sixth season. He is 25 years old.
I can point to a few things (Houston benching, inconsitent treatment) that could have made Reyes dislike Willie as rumored to be the case, and lead to his downfall over the past year. Yet the only thing I can think of lately that may have turned him around is that Randolph is close to being fired.
But if you want to credit him for ‘fixing’ Reyes’ natural loss of concentration over the past 12 months with some unseen tactic, then the fact that it took him a year to finally figure it out is deplorable.
Also, if Beltran isn’t hitting for power because of the lack of production behind him, why doesn’t Willie change the lineup?
The team is falling apart around him, and all he can do is sit around and chant his mantra: “I believe in my guys!” (Have I mentioned that annoys me?) :)
If you look at the problem instead of blaming Willie. You should look at:
“THE VICE-PREZ OF PLAYER DEVELOPMENT”: who is
“TONY BERNAZARD”
who sticks his nose into business that prevents willie from doing his job…………
“Also, if Beltran isn’t hitting for power because of the lack of production behind him, why doesn’t Willie change the lineup?”
and put who behind him? wright, then people will be complaining about no one behind wright to protect him. I don’t particularly think Willie is a very good manager, I’m not even sure he’s average, but I don’t think it matters with the team we have now. it’s just poorly put together.
And if we’re going to look at Bernazard we should probably look at the guy who hired him as well. Who also happens to be the guy who put this poorly constructed team together. As far as I can tell all roads lead to Omar.
I did. Although, my one mistake was that I thought the team was talented enough to overcome his shortcomings.
A part of me still does, and I hate that. I wish he wasn’t so likable.
no one complained about him in ‘06? he was moronic back then, too, even worse than now. being completely overwhelmed in game 7 of the nlcs and not knowing what to do in the bottom of the 9th kinda cost them.
Thank you Matt.
I tend to agree. I like Willie’s professionalism and he’s a good guy. I think he’s fine as a manager, if not the best, but I like the underdog story and I certainly don’t blame Willie for the players poor performances.
i don’t see why he should go, who’s gonna replace him?
A lack of an obvious replacement is no reason to keep a manager. If that’s the best you’ve got, Willie has to go (which is pretty obvious, anyway).
I agree It’s not all Willie’s fault, only a moron or a two year old would blame everything on Willie. A manager does not have that kind of influence on a team’s performance, not even the “great” Joe Tore.
But with that said, there’s no one on here or anywhere else for that matter that can tell me a good manager could not figure out how to win just ONE MORE game last year when your team was up by 7 with 17 left to play. JUST ONE MORE DAM GAME.
The playres deserve 90% of the blame, but do you really think if Lou Pinella or Ozzy Guillon were managing this team last Sept. that they wouldn’t have figured out a way to win one or two more games, come on, be real with yourself.
I’m tire of that OLe baseball saying ” managers don’t hit, pitch or field, the players do”. While that sounds good and is some what valid, Amanager’s job is to win baseball games, period. He’s also suppose to be a motivator and get the best out of his players or kick butt when it’s required, it’s very obvious Willie has failed in those intangibles.
Absolutely, NadyFan. It is obvious that the Mets’ failings are mostly the players’ faults, but Willie makes some very obvious bad calls and it is quite possible that no other manager would’ve “guided” the Mets to their infamous September 2007 collapse. Say what you want about Glavine, and his terrible last 3 starts but, aside from that last game (there is *no* excuse for giving up 7 runs in 1/3 inning, including hitting the pitcher while walking the rest of the team), it basically came down to the fact that Glavine is old for a ballplayer and was not capable of pitching well for a full season. Willie, on the other hand, was *very* capable of not going to Guillermo Mota in critical situations, yet he did so repeatedly last year–and paid for it almost every time. He was also capable of pitching Aaron Sele in blowouts-the very situation you have a “mop-up man” for–but instead used his other relievers then, too, and they were worn out down the stretch.
The fact is, Willie has repeatedly made this bad choices and is so stubborn that he refuses to admit he was wrong–and then goes out and does the same things! Throw in the fact that he has totally lost the clubhouse, and the whole team has taken on his lifeless “personality,” and you have a manager who needs to go.
Why all the fuzz about Willie? look at Jim Leyland and his Tigers…why is nobody talking about him being fired? New York, New York…
Maybe they should be talking about Leyland.
Of course, Leyland *does* have a history of flipping out on his team and supposedly spurring them on to success. The only success that Willie has had as a manager was most likely *in spite* of him, not *because* of him.
If you want some other managers in hot water, though, keep in mind that Ozzie Guillen was practically gone. Of course, he threw a fit, and his team responded to it and won 7 in a row–so his job is now safe. (Hint, hint, Willie!)
Leyland has a ring. End of discussion.
willie is a below average manager…….i think we can do better……now after omar tells us which young latin stars he signed, and after we see if nixon has any impact at all, will i then figure out if omar is below average as well.
“…will i then figure out if omar is below average as well”
He hasn’t given you enough reasons already?
Not to me — Randolph has made all the talented players Omar acquired eventually play worse.Even the young ones like Reyes and Wright and Beltran have digressed. I’d personally like to see if it’s a major coincidence or Willie losing the team.
Omar didn’t acquire Reyes or Wright. Phillips drafted Wright and signed Reyes.
Omar *has* made his share of mistakes, but what GM hasn’t?
Take Brian Cashman. Notwithstanding the recent hot streak of Jason Giambi, how much of a bad signing was that for Cashman? And Carl Pavano? Jaret Wright? Kyle Farnsworth? Even the Johnny Damon signing was pretty bad, though Damon still has *something* to contribute, it seems.
It’s a little harder with Theo Epstein, but there is Matt Clement. And how about Julio Lugo? (The Eric Gagne trade was as big a bust as there ever was, but I don’t think anybody saw that coming.)
The fact is, Omar makes mistakes, just like every GM. He also makes some great moves, lest we forget the signings of Pedro, Beltran, Wagner, the trade for and signing of Johan, and the signing of Wright and Reyes to long term deals. Cashman was hired in 1998, Epstein in 2002, and Omar in 2004. Cashman and Epstein have 6 years and 2 years, respectively, of developing their teams’ minor league systems on Omar. It would be a lot easier for Omar to lay off the aging veteran free agents if he had the farm systems of the Sox or Yankees. I’m willing to wait and see if he can do it, once the Mets’ young minor league prospects in the lower part of the system develop, much like Cashman and Epstein have done it. We won’t be able to start the evaluation process, though, until Willie is gone and finished with “motivating” this team to nothing but underachievment.
The Red Sox farm system 2 years ago was still considered one of the best in the major leagues, so the 2 years Epstein has on him isn’t an excuse. And if Omar had layed off the high priced free agents, like Epstein has for the most parts, we would have had first round picks to build up a farm system.
Plus what’s his excuse for the lack of production we’ve gotten from the first and second round picks we’ve taken under his regime.
Fair enough about Epstein, but also consider that the franchise he was hired to run had a fan base that actually expected it to lose! Surely, they didn’t want the Sox to lose, but when they did, it was just “business as usual.” He didn’t have the pressure to trade whatever prospects he had for veterans who could help the team win now. Think of all the prospects Omar traded to get Delgado, Lo Duca and, of course, Johan, Church and Schneider. Plus, I couldn’t tell you for sure what the state of the Red Sox farm system was when Epstein inherited it, but it *had* to have been better than the one Omar inherited–you know, the one that saw Scott Kazmir go in exchange for Victor Zambrano.
As for the supposed “lack of production” from the first and second round picks during his tenure, I’d have to agree with that assessment to explain it. I believe he’s only had one first round pick, and that was Pelfrey, who has been rushed to the majors, but may be finally panning out And the Mets supposedly have good prospects in the lower part of their minor league system. So, in a couple of years (i.e., the difference between Theo’s tenure and Omar’s), the Mets’ system may be pretty good. Now, I’m not saying it will be as good as Boston’s currently is, but it doesn’t have to be for Omar and his troops to have done well in developing the system–some systems are bound to be better than others, right?
Huh? The difference between Theo and Omar’s tenures is not “a couple of years” but just 1 year.
Theo already has two WS titles in that time. Omar has zero. Epstein was able to both “win now” and build for the future. Winning now doesn’t mean you go out and build an AARP team. On that contrary, that’s almost a prescription for failure. There are ways to “win now” without going AARP and Epstein has done that. Omar is clueless in this regard.
Uh Gina, Epstein has laid off the big free agent signings?
He traded for and signed Crisp to a huge, bad deal. He gave Drew 70 mill, Lugo 36, Clement, and let’s not forget, tried to trade for A-Rod and CUT Manny. If the P.A. didn’t step in to stop that deal, they never win even ONE W.S.
I agree, Omar’s been FAR from perfect. And while totally frustrated w/ the state of this team, let’s not forget when Omar took over, where we were. A lot of us are starting to act like Yankee fans, where we’re supposed to win. We are no where NEAR the worst team in the league.
A lot of the moves GM’s make turn out to be lucky or terrible, and it’s a crap-shoot. If the Mets don’t sweep the awful Rangers, fire Willie and Peterson, and let’s see what this team is made of. If that doesn’t wake them up, nothing really will, and when the offseason arrives, save for Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Maine, Johan, Church, and maybe Pelf, you blow this whole travesty up. However, unlike most recent Met “blowups” of their teams, the above named players set for a pretty good core that will mostly all be at or near their primes when the replacements evolve into “hopefully” good players.
Let’s Go Mets
P.S.
sorry for the book
we’ve been thru all this “willie is a great guy, i hope he can turn it around ” stuff………. sorry ,but time to go willie..
He’s not such a great guy, either. Well, let me clarify, since I do not know the man, personally. He may be a nice guy, for the most part, and his postgame press conference on Friday was quite amusing, but not so long ago, he was calling all of his critics racist, as if his managerial record was beyond reproach, and his critics are a bunch of idiots in bedsheets who know nothing about baseball. There’s nothing “great” about that. Apologizing because the backlash required it means nothing.
“I do not understand how he or any other manager is going to make Carlos Delgado turn quicker on an inside fastball, or make Jose Reyes keep his elbow in, or make David Wright stop swinging at pitches…”
But by this argument, no manager with underperforming players would ever deserve to be fired under any circumstances.
Bingo, happy I’m not the only one who realizes the faulty logic
He didn’t say deserve, he said want.
It’s getting close to the time he probably ‘deserves’ to be fired, in the sense that he’s the fall guy for an underperforming team, whether or not he’s the cause of it.
But many of us don’t think that firing willie makes any difference.
We’ll never know until the Mets get rid of him. What’s the worse thing that could happen? The Mets play the next 200 games under .500?
It may not. But it’s worth trying. There were probably some Marlin fans in 2003 who said they were gonna stink as much under Jack McKeon as they did under Jeff Torborg.
That worked out pretty well for the Marlins.
And what difference does keeping him make?
“I do not understand how he or any other manager is going to make Carlos Delgado turn quicker on an inside fastball, or make Jose Reyes keep his elbow in, or make David Wright stop swinging at pitches…”
in defense of willie isnt that the hitting coaches job ^^^^^^^^^^^^
i still think willie should be let go because of his lack of enthusiasm lack of leader ship and lack of baseball knowledge in situations where managers need to ..WELL… MANAGE a game
plus all this talk about willie not being a good fit for the mets because of the players we got and what omar promised .. thats all bull .. if your a good manager you adapt to the team you have and learn how to win with them even if their not the players you asked for …
i thought thats what makes a manager great to know how to win under any kind of circumstances . grant your not going to win with a lack luster team .. but you shouldnt be out of the playoff race in june either
I agree – look at Pat Riley – he had a run and gun, Showtime Laker team, but when he got to NY, he totally changed his style to mesh with his new roster – all gritty defense, all the time – and almost won a ring with them, too. That’s a great coach.
Pat Riley also couldn’t get the Miami heat to win 20 games without Shaq.
Willie has had to do without BOTH his corner outfielders (Alou & Church) for most of the season as well as 2 pitchers who have pitched a total of 10 innings (Pedro & El Duque).
Neither the 2007 Mets, nor the 2008 Mets, are the equivalent of the Heat without Shaq. Both of these Mets teams had/have Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Wagner, Maine, among others. The 2008 team also has Johan and the return of Duaner. They definitely have holes, but while they are not the 1927 Yankees, they also aren’t the Heat without Shaq.
Matt, then when should a manager be fired? All you can really base his performance on is his record, which since May of ‘07 has been under .500. Obviously if a manager’s not winning it’s because of his players, but to go by your logic, a manager should never be fired because he’s never on the field.
Also, I’m sure people will throw out the “well look what he has to work with” argument, but you’re telling me a team with Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Santana, Maine, and Wagner in a crappy league should be under .500 deep into June?
The man deserves to be fired, he’s had more than enough opportunities to right the ship. Omar deserves blame too, but unlike firing the manager mid season (Florida ‘03 and Houston ‘04), there’s no precedence of a mid-season GM firing turning a team around.
As usual, metsfan119 and I are in total agreement.
You should be fired from this site.
i’d expect trots impact to be on the same level jeff conines was…… nothing………
Look, Omar does not get a pass – he’s made some horrible moves, our bench is pathetic, the Castillo signing was absurd, and he relied on Alou again. But as was pointed out above, a team with David Wright, Jose Reyes, Johan Santana, Carlos Beltran, John Maine and Billy Wagner cannot be under .500 in a crappy league for a YEAR. Just can’t be.
oh no …… omar gets no pass from me….. he should be following willie right out the door…. only he gets till seasons end, willie should go now……
Exactly. We all know Omar’s made his share of mistakes, but replacing him now is unlikely to do *any* good, let alone have a significant impact. So, let him have the rest of the year, with a different manager, and see if he can give the Wilpons reason to keep him.
The thing is, I think Omar may have learned his lesson. I don’t know, but he hasn’t shown me the same kind of stubborness that Willie has. The problem is, what Omar needs to do to change is stop relying on signing old, injury-prone free agents, and start developing from within the farm system. That cannot happen instantly, though. By most–if not all–accounts, the Mets did well in this year’s draft. Also, he got the best pitcher in baseball without giving up the Mets’ best overall prospect (F-Mart) and their best pitching prospect (Pelfrey), not to mention other names like Niese, Parnell. Kunz, Carp, Murphy, Evans, Rustich, Tejeda, and Pena. Prospects just don’t develop in an instant, though. It will take years for some of them to develop, so, it’s very possible that the Mets could be a successful team in a couple of years because of the draft picks Omar made. Yes, in the meantime, he’s had to acquire some short-term solutions that did not pan out, and that was based upon his now outdated philosophy of spending big money on high-priced veteran free agents, but we cannot know if he learned from that until the trading deadline at the earliest but, most likely, not until the offseason. He should get a little more time, in my opinion.
I should have said that he probably needs more than just the offseason too, though. As I said in my comment, these prospects will not just develop in an instant, so it is unfair to boot Minaya before the farm system he is trying to develop does, in fact, develop.
“He has not done that, mostly because he was charged with bringing instant credibility to a struggling organization – and I’m not sure he could ‘win now’ and ‘build for tomorrow’ all in one motion.”
Matt, I’m not sure how many other people will agree with this, but I would have much rather sacrificed a couple more average seasons in order to build for the future. Rather than sacrificing the “build for the future” for the “win now”, because all that has happened was it gave Mets fans one season of magic and hope. Followed by a season and a half filled with disappointment and apathy.
I really wish Omar would have stuck to his promise of building for a perennial contender.
I agree, Slappy, but that isn’t a popular opinion. And, really, even if a ton of people comment similarly here, as many hits as MetsBlog may get, there are not enough people commenting here to say it is a representative opinion of the majority of Mets fans. A lot of people want to win now, and do not even think of the long term, figuring a team should be able to make adjustments on the fly so that they can compete every year. And then others would “talk the talk,” and say that they’d prefer a couple of more mediocre seasons to build a better future, but it would just be lip service, and they would flip out when they Mets did not do well. Being the GM for a team in New York, Omar had little choice but to try to win now. He has tried to do so while also building for the future, but that has not proved possible for him–he did not have the minor league depth that, say, Theo Epstein did to pull that off. But, now it has been very publicly proven that throwing big money at every big name free agent is not the answer, so perhaps Omar *will* be able to go to his verbalized original plan now. As many bad moves as he has made, I think he’s made enough good ones to deserve that chance.
you know, omar took over a team with a pretty good amount of talent in 2004, as well as a number of large expiring contracts the following season. i don’t know why no one ever mentions that.
any chump off the street could have won one division title in that situation since then, especially in 2006 when the NL was beyond awful, and decimate the farm system in the process.
i say start trot nixon tonight. nixon is a tough player that the mets need, and lets see them use their new acquisition tonight
yeah if only it was 2003…
I am 99.999999% sure that Trot was acquired to start against righties, at least until Church and Alou are both back. That being said, lefty Kason Gabbard is starting tonight for Texas, so I’d expect to see Trot starting the game on the bench. (I do not have any inside sources–this is all speculation on my part.)
i think everyone needs to chill a little. i agree with matt. keep this team and see if they turn around. this team went to being bad suddenly, who says they cant suddenly turn good just like they turned bad. omar did his job by trying to get a scrappy player in nixon, lets see if the mets can move forward and start playing consistent baseball.
LAST YEAR IS NOW!
“this team went to being bad suddenly, who says they cant suddenly turn good just like they turned bad.”
They turned bad suddenly? Check the record since this day today. It’s under 500. This team started playing bad a long time ago, they haven’t played well for an extended period of time, and it’s not going to change any time soon unless changes are made.
The problem is that they *didn’t* just become bad suddenly. They have been bad since Memorial Day 2007. An occasional flash of good play doesn’t change that.
The problem with the Mets is that they *have* been doing nothing, as you suggest. Something needs to change for them to get different results. The most logical place to start is by firing the lifeless and incompetent manager.
Willie has to go. This team became complacent last year, they thought they’d win the division so long as they showed up, they never played with a sense of urgency, and they never took the Phillies seriously. That can all be blamed on Willie. Were you not saying there needs to be accountability, Matt?
This team will NEVER fully recover so long as Willie is here. This team needs a change in attitude desperately before it’s too late. While I don’t like that it might be Manuel, there needs to be a change.
when his willie’s contract expires the mets should just not hire a manager because apparentely they’re unnecessary
mets should sign oscar de lahoya….. he’s old , very tough and probably not worth a sh-t on a baseball field ,but he’s gritty…
Did Trot Nixon run over your dog or something?
has trot nixon done anything in 5 years….. why is he in triple aaa…..? soorry but i’m tired of meaningless band aids and buying willie a few more days…….
and trots just the face of todays band aid…….
I think he had a good playoff run last year.
so good thats why he’s in triple a ???????? c’mon ..wake up …
I’m wide awake. I don’t think he’s gonna be the second coming of clemente or anything. Just saying he’s probably a better option than Aguila or Tatis.
well that i agree with …. but it’s such a minor bump ,it wont matter…
A minor bump is better than nothing. The fact is, the Mets needed a major league-caliber outfielder to fill in while Church and Alou are out. Omar got one.
The reason why he was in AAA? Two of them. The first is that the Dbacks have a ton of good, young players, so Trot was too far down on their depth chart to make the major league team–not a problem with the Mets. The second is that he is not so full of himself that he thinks he is too big of a star to play in AAA–how many other Mets can we say that about?
He also wears ladies’ underwear.
he should fit right in with these pansies….
wait, cancer stays???? is he willie’s relative or something? the only sense of keeping cancel is if u hope to use castro as a pinch hitter and use cancer in case schneider gets injured in the middle of the game or if the game goes to extras, but the mets dont even use castro as a pinch hitter. wtf.
Or because we’re playing in an AL park against the Angels and they’re going to use Castro as a dh.
willie is the collapse …… like it or not, fair or not…… if you think this is not a continuation of last year ,your lost………
Willie has to go for many reasons.
1) He has yet to master the double switch.
2) He exerts no discipline for lack of hustle or mental mistakes.
3)He is stubborn to play younger players when the older ones are faltering.
4)He still hasn’t figured out what RP to use in certain situations/batters.
5) His low key professionalism has put this team to sleep.
Something has to be done to shake up this team, and that usually means canning the manager.
Matt,
I am in agreement with you in terms of Omar. Additionally, I was a Willie supporter, but now, he needs to go for the sake of change.
I am curious why Wilile gave this line up tonight. He should have tried Nixon. Oh well!
1. Reyes
2. Castillo
3. Wright
4. Beltran
5. Easley
6. Delgado
7. Castro
8. Chavez
9. Martinez
Usually, Easley and Castro in the lineup means there’s a lefty starting against us.
There is a lefty–Kason Gabbard–and Trot is not much against lefties. Obviously, Endy is a lefty hitter, too, but he is the better option defensively.
nixon couldn’t hit lefties when he was good…
I’m with my paesano on this one. Unless the Mets go into a wicked tailspin before the All-Star break, I’m w/ WR; I believe in my fellow NYers, and I want to see WR and Mets succeed into the next half and change of the ‘08 season.
I posted recently that I think Mets now turn it around. Hopeful idiot or not, it’s my expectation.
BTW, I hope some of you read Harvey Araton’s column in the Times today. It supports WR and provides credible analysis of the trials and tribulations of the Mets for the past year. And I also agree, if Willie goes, then Minaya hast to accompany him.
No, Trot Nixon is not a star, but he’s gritty and a fighter, and he’s about as close as we’re gonna get to Dykstra in attitude right now.
Let’s Go Mets!
I hate to break it to you, but the tailspin has already occurred.
“Randolph was a blue collar, scrappy, under-appreciated competitor – like the Mets – always playing second-fiddle to the more popular, more expensive Dave Winfield and Reggie Jackson.”
“As a player, Randolph was well-respected for his hustle, hard-nosed style and his consistent play.”
None of the above characteristics are exhibited by the mets. Just because willie was this way as a manager does not mean he has been able to teach it to his team. It is time for willie to go, has been for a while.
you mean “as a player,” and I agree…
I did mean as a player, nice catch.
How about keep the manager and change the players. They’re the real problem anyway.
Obviously they are, but how do you do that? It is much easier to fire 1 manager than it is to replace 25 players (or 15-20, as would be needed here). And why should we expect a new set of players to not underperform under Willie? Does it really make sense to go through all that effort to replace all those players when a number of very good players have already underperformed for the manager? How about replacing the manager and seeing if the team can play to their talent level.
This is really well stated. I love Randolph’s playing style and I wish the Mets would incorporate it more. In 2006, Willie had a team that played hard and had speed.
It is not Randolph’s fault that Wagner blew three games in a row. It is not his fault that the team left the bases loaded twice in Thursday’s game.
Firing Willie won’t help. Signing Nixon does help. He’s not incredibly fast, but his style of play is what this team needs.
As many have pointed out, Willie is not the one pitching, hitting, and fielding–so his playing style is irrelevant. His managing style has proven to be unsuccessful, and he is too stubborn to change it, so he needs to go.
C’mon this stuff is not exactly what managers teach at this level of professionalism. Guess, he just has to keep “teaching” Wagner. Silly. Davey Johnson, for example, was a master tactician; this is what I am still willing to allow Randolph to learn a bit more, but, yes, he’s got to learn it fast.
Davey Johnson was a master tactician? First I’ve heard.
Johnson was a players manager, a man’s man. He was not really a tactician…despite the quaint hype at the time about his use of “computers.”
The man was a master of bullpens, something Willie has a lonnnnnnnnng way to go in every coming close to being.
Davey also knew where and when to use platoons, where as Willie will keep going with players who are completely finished or so sub par as starters that there’s no doubt why the team’s been under .500 the last year now.
There’s a reason Davey has a .564 career wining percentage and only two teams under his belt that finished in less than 2nd place in 14 seasons.
so what, pray tell, does a manager do? what should they teach? why does a major league team of professionals even need a manager?
Well, obviously they are needed to fill out the lineup cards and make changes. Other than that, depending on the team, their only other responsibility may be to avoid screwing the team up (a la Bobby Cox and Joe Torre, during their teams’ runs). On other teams, though, like the 2008 Mets, the manager needs to keep the team focused, and playing hard, and needs to discipline them when they do not do so. Willie has proven incapable of that, so he needs to go.
gritty with eroded talents………..
sorry folks this aint hockey……….
I always thought the way Matt does about Willie when Willie was a player, and a coach, but his recent hard times have shed some light on him for me. He is stubborn and paranoid. Stubborn in that he refuses to change his ways, even though he sees they are not working, instead repeating his inane mantra, “I believe in my guys.” And, of course, his nonsense from a couple of weeks ago, with blaming everybody but himself, and playing the race card, was just the epitome of paranoia. He is a bad manager and is too stubborn to change his ways. He needs to go.
Now, that is not to say that Omar is blameless. The team has too many old and injury-prone players without back-up plans. Still, the good, young, healthy players are underperforming, too. And the team does not seem to get upset enough after losses–they have taken on the lifeless personaility of their lifeless manager. They should not need a kick in the pants to perform better, as they are well-paid professionals (not to mention adults), but they apparently do. Everybody seems to realize this, yet Willie won’t do it because of that stubborn streak that doesn’t allow him to changehis ways when it is someone else’s idea. That would be a problem no matter who was on the team, so, while it would hardly be wrong to get rid of Omar, Willie definitely needs to go.
To say otherwise because “Willie can’t pitch, hit, or field for the team” is just being naive. Perhaps someone can come up with another reason to keep Willie, but the one I just listed is the only one I’ve heard, so far (in various forms) and, as I said, it is pucky.
“because he embodies a gritty, New York, blue-collar sensibility that is making a come back in Major League Baseball.”
This is making a comeback? News to me.
Anyway, if it is, then Willie should have no problem finding a new job.
willie will never work as a manager again after this job, seriously.
What the mets need, and their fans, is a reason to have hope and optimism. right now that is not happening. if anyone has read Klapisch today they will know that the last piece of his article offers both to met fans:
“Two candidates come to mind: the most radical is Wally Backman, who has the professional skills, but is socially self-destructive. The other is Bobby Valentine, who has a good relationship with Minaya dating back to their days in Texas.
Valentine has had a successful career managing in Japan since he left the Mets, but a friend said on Friday, “There is definitely a chance Bobby would leave. If the Mets want him, they should go for it.”
I don’t like doing what other teams do, but how cool would it be if Valentine appeared in the owners box during tonights game?
As much as I’d love to see Wally as the Mets new manager, I don’t see it happening. The Wilpons seem to have a thing for avoiding people with “baggage,” That obviously leaves Wally out. Of course, they were willing to draft Milledge, with his baggage, but then again, I’m not certain as to whether they knew about his baggage when they drafted him.
As for Bobby V, I have a hard time believing that he’d actually come back. From what I’ve read and heard, for whatever reason, he’s like a rock star over there in Japan and making tons of money. He’d certainly make good money over here, but he would never experience the same sort of adoration that he apparently does in Japan. An anonymous quote from a supposed friend will not convinve me otherwise.
The funny thing is that Matt actually PLAYED PRO BALL. None of you guys have. So if you don’t mind, I’ll trust his opinion and dismiss yours as “typical spoiled NY fans drivel”.
Thanks Matt!!
how about having your own opinion? And how is it that you know that NONE of the posters on here have played pro ball? it is tough to deal in absolutes.
And Matt playing baseball does not add credibility to his opinion. because that is the nature of opinions, everyone has one, even the ignorant, non-sport playing “spoiled NY fans.”
Kj….
The manager’s role is to refine baseball skills for men at the MLB level. He definitely should be a teacher, but “winning consistently” is learned by being extremely well prepared for what you do; you cannot teach this attitude. Don’t know if you agree with me (?) A manager also has to be a great tactician; I think here it’s impossible to disagree.
As for the other fan, who said Johnson was a “leader” for the players, yes, he was. But he was also a Master Tactician. If you haven’t read Bats (P. Golenbock and Johnson), then you really should. If you have, maybe we read different books. No hype here.
I want Willie to stay too. But Hojo needs replaced. It’s obvious this team has a problem hitting and he’s the hitting coach. Makes sense to me. My vote is for Mex!
Hojo was hired to replace Rick Down because the team wasn’t hitting, so I doubt it’s Hojo–though, as much as I like him from his playing days, I don’t think he is a benefit for the team, either, so his loss would not be such a big deal (other than “nostalgia-wise”). The team tried to just replace one coach last year, and look what little that did. They need a bigger shake-up–like replacing the manager.
listen, hojo cant be the mets hitting coach cuz he was a great player for the mets. they need a smart hitting coach, not necessarily someone who was a great hitter himself but someone who knows how to hit and most importantly can work with the players. hojo apparently cant do that. as for clutch hitting, hojo cant do anything about that. thats just in each players dna.
although i like Trot he is clearly not the answer for a future in this franchise …good player to have on the team.. not the answer to our prblems
matt played “pro ball”? are you sure.
i play semi-pro softball. what does that get me?
are we playing tonight or what?
At this point let Willie finish the year.
If he wasn’t fired at the end of last year, and wasn’t fired during that whole media circus and emergency meeting, I don’t see how this is the right time. So they win a series with the Rangers and he’s good enough for the job. But if they lose the next two he’s not good enough, and he’s fired? Give me a break. At this point let’s just get through the year and win as many games as possible. If they can find some outside help that will allow them to cut some players who are dead weight, then fine, do that. That’s the only way they’re going to win anything this year. Fire Willie and put someone else in charge of this team in its current state and things will only get worse.
Just because they made the wrong decision before (after the 2007 season ended, and after the meeting on Memorial Day 2008), doesn’t mean they should keep making the wrong decision. He should’ve been gone then, he should be gone now–they need to learn from their past mistakes. The sooner they figure out if they need to totally blow up the team, or if a managerial change was enough, the better. And since they are all amped about the new stadium, the smart thing for them to do is to give the fans some reason to hope. Maintaining the status quo will not accomplish that.
One other thing I will say about this. While I think he might as well finish the year, I don’t care if they fire Willie Randolph tomorrow. I won’t agree with it, but I won’t lose any sleep over it either.
I am a fan of the New York Mets. The success of the team is more important to me than the success of the manager.
Just wanted to throw that in too.
Unfornately what’s probably going to happen is that they will fire Willie and also acquire a power bat for LF and also some other key pieces which will make the new manager look like a genius once the team starts winning again with the added players. Give Willie the same new players and I’m confident he can get this team rolling again.
IF that were to happen, I would be just as happy. My first priority is to see them get the best team on the field. That’s not happening right now. So if they fire Willie and figure out a way to make the team better, that’s OK with me. Like I’ve said before, the success of the team is more important that the success of the manager.
But I don’t know if they can do anything to radically change this team this season. If they can’t, I would rather see them let Willie finish the year. Then if they don’t make the playoffs, people who want to defend him can bang their heads against the wall, because that will have been the last straw, and he goes with a lot of other people.
Two things: 1) Willie mismanaged his bullpen, and sat on his ass far too long this season before acting. 2) Minaya claimed full autonomy, so he should have either said his intention was to “win now” and not made any statements about being younger and more athletic and building the farm, or he should have done those things at the expense of pursuing the Alous, Delgados and Castillos of the world.
Neither has done a good job.
But then, neither have the players.
I totally agree.
You can’t win without the horses. And out horses are always coming up lame.
Fire Omar for an ill thought out roster with little to no protection for aging and oft injured players.
Willie can only manage what he is given and as usual he has been sold a bill of goods like the rest of us.
yeah omar has to go, he makes his good deals but they even out with deals that end up in the mets getting a low key scrub [burgos, ben johnson, gotay(for the record letting him go made no sense)]for players who actually contribute on other teams (Lidstrom, Bannister, Heath Bell, Keppinger).
The one thing i wanna see them do is fire Peterson, I cant stand watching him change all our young arms. He made every single pitcher stop throwing their curveball (with the exception of Pedro Martinez). Now how does that make any sense, Thats just one less pitch the hitters have to worry about. And as bad as he’s done, why is howard johnson our hitting coach? You can’t find anyone better than Howard Johnson? Hes a career .250 hitter, what does he know about hitting…
Willie the Player was a scrappy guy who did all the little things a team needs in order to win.
Willie the Manager is a head strong, stubborn guy who can’t see the forest for the trees alot of the time. His lack of managerial experience in the minors has shown brightly the last few years and continues to be glaring everytime he misuses the bullpen.
Overall, I’d fire Omar before Willie at this point, though. While Willie’s got shortcomings, Omar has given him little to work with in the ways of a firstbaseman, leftfielder, secondbaseman and bench. His failings to gather a strong enough bench while knowing those 3 positions are such holes are grounds enough for a dismissal, but the horror show he put together for this year’s bench goes beyond incompetence. and not having anything more than a Tatis or Cancel sitting at AAA is inexcusable; there are players sitting around all over the place with more to give than the players Omar’s trying to get pensions for.
It’s a shame we’re all stuck with Omar the retard for at least another year, cause the Wilpons aren’t going to be firing him anytime soon. Awesome job, guys, awesome job.
no manager in history can do those things that cerrone listed. So then, does that mean no manager should ever get fired? After all, no manager will make the players stay healthy, or get younger, etc.
This logic is totally flawed.
you are insane. willie is one of the worst managers in the game. he shows no passion for the team. when is the last time he’s been ejected for arguing calls for his players? you need that to add a spark in the clubhouse and on the field. he sits there with his arms crossed playing with his mustache while we lose 9-1.
Matt, you are dead on Omar has failed BIG TIME in living up to that promise of having a younger, athletic team. I also think you are dead on in the fact that if he does fire Wille, the bullseye turns squarely on him, which I’m sure he doesn’t want.
Totally agree. Omar is not completely dumb. He fires Willie, and whoever else, and there will be no one to blame after that.
Whether it’s Willie, Jerry Manuel, Ken Oberkell…. if real roster changes are not made, this team is going to be spinning its wheels right into a sub .500 season.
There is much dead weight and assorted crap on the roster that really need to go.
It is embarrassing people have to keep bringing up Willie’s playing career as this gritty winner! As if that matters or has any correlation to being a good manager. Some of the best managers in history were losers as far their playing career goes. The last ditch efforts to act like oh Willie should stay because of that.. Laughable, inexusable and just not needed at this point. Time turn the page on the Willie era..
Why was Art Howe fired ? he was one of the nicest men i ever met much along the same line as Willie is. It wasn’t Art Howe’s fault.. Why was Jeff Torborg fired those teams it was all the players fault there. Willie is as much to blame or not to blame as those guys. Managers get fired that is the bottom line. To pretend it is different for Willie this big winner for the yanks as the reason he should get a pass here. Again its reaching for straws and not a good reason at all.
Aslong as Willie is the manager of the ny Mets or anyone on this coaching staff is here and even Omar to some extent. We are always going to be reminded of the collapse. Time to turn the page on the Willie and Omar era. But the manager is going to have to be the first one out the door as that is how it works.
I have never been a huge Wille fan. But anyone who thinks changing managers is going to turn this team around is dead wrong. This team is about as awful and pathetic as you can get and a manager change is not going to turn that around. The enitre organization, from Fred Wilpon on down, has perpatrated a fraud on the entire fan base. They have made us believe they know hw to build a winning team when in fact they have no idea what they are doing. It is time for us to accept that we have a mediocre team with no heart and an ownership & front office more concerned with spin than with trying to make things right. So sad.
Changing Willie is more than just changing the manager. It is removing the shield omar and others are hiding behind. With Willie gone we can finally get to the core issues. Is it fair no, but it has never been fair and it is not like Willie is not to blame at all. He after all led this team into the abyss with the all-time collapse. That alone is enough reason. Then this season on top of it come on. Maybe the new manager won’t get things turned around. If it is Jerry Manuel i garuntee it will get worse, so if thats what they will do, i am all for just keeping Willie then. But maybe.. maybe you get lucky with a change and the team takes off. Those Marlins sure were going nowhere with Jeff Torborg. With the same players a change worked and they won a championship. Wally Backman is the answer! I would bet my house he would get this team playing well.
The Marlins were a young, energetic talented team that just needed a kick in the butt when Torborg was fired.
The Mets are nothing like this, and just added another aging veteran to the mix. Great.
Also, Beinfest is a much better evaluator of talent than Omar is.
Yeah but it does not have to be an old team and Willie if he has proven one thing does not like to play young players. Call up Carp and Fmart for the 2nd-half. But we need a manager who is going to stick with them and play them. Not ridicule them every chance he gets while letting veterans get away with the same damn thing the way Willie does. The future of the Mets does not include Willie Randolph. Time for change!
I think it’s nonsense to say Willie doesn’t play the young kids. He played Evans, Smith, Pelfrey.
Who didn’t he play?
Willie is not the main problem with this team. It’s Omar. He’s the one who doesn’t like young kids. He could have called on them many times in the past but decided to go with tired old retreads.
Matt … it is very encouraging for you to give your opinion like this, and I agree with it. Except that, yes, you can build a team to win now as well as build for the future. Theo Epstein is proof of that.
Unfortunately, I don’t think Omar is smart enough to do both. He’s badly handled the farm system that was in place when he got here … and it’s only gotten worse in his brief tenure. Scouting was supposed to be a strength for Omar, but his judgment when it comes to talent and team building is just so questionable. Even his choice to hire Willie was a head scratcher. And the Mets paid for that in 2005 when Willie made a lot of managerial mistakes. He’s better now as a manager and is about average. The main problems on this team right now do not stem from Willie.
If they fire Willie, nothing will change with this team. The problem is with the architect who designed this team.
And I agree with SenorMet that the Wilpons are to blame too. Because they have a lousy record of hiring baseball executives. No, they are not cheap, and the Freddie Coupon label couldn’t be more lame. But they need to get smarter when they hire the front office execs to run their team.
Perhaps they themselves aren’t capable of placing the correct intelligences in the correct of roles. Mind you, I’m not calling them “stupid,” just…maybe not as “hands on” as they might be.
Errata: omit “of” b/w “correct” & “roles”
(Erratum: replace “Errata,” above, with “Erratum.”
Erratum: credit above to Douglas R. Hofstadter.
That’s what I’m afraid of. That the Wilpons are just not smart enough to hire the right execs to run their club.
If Willie is somehow survives this season and they go nowhere. My biggest fear is Omar Minaya will then fire him and be let off the hook. That is why this has dragged on as long as it has. Omar is hoping to keep Willie around to shield himself and give him another chance to build a team for ‘09. The Wilpons need who reportedly have allready signed off on Willie being fired, except they have allowed Omar to decide what day he wants to do it. So you have Jeffy Boy leaking crap about Willie day in and day out now. Why can’t the Wilpons if they want him fired just do it and leave Omar out of this. Oh i know why they are cowards to who want to say they had nothing to do with firing him.
And let’s not forget that WR grew up a Mets fan, after all…
Heilman you are right this Freddie Coupon tag has got to stop especially after the money they spent on Santana. I also agree with you and Senor Met that the Wilpons have to take some heat here because they have a lousy record of hiring baseball executives. Think about it the only really good GM’s we’ve had were Frank Cashen and maybe even Gerry Hunsiker, and I think one if not both were before the Wilpon’s time. I just think both Willie and Omar should go, not just Willie, if changes have to be made aka retool I don’t think Omar should do it, he has done enough damage to this team,
Willie: “Mets fans were in hiding before I showed up.”
Who’s in hiding now, Willie???
Good riddance.
Omar’s next.
The bottom line is keeping Willie or giving the job of manager to jerry manuel or anyone on that coaching staff equates to one thing. Lot’s of angry Mets fans the remainder of the season. You would think the Ownership would be smart enough to clear the air for everyones sake.
Willie needs to go…and the sooner the better. Is he the only problem on the Mets? No. Of course not, but he is step 1. The sooner we move on the better. Matt, you claim that you had played before but your rationale for keeping Willie is soft coming from a former player. You basically say a manager has very little input on what happens on a field…and I couldn’t disagree more. A manager motivates, they also put players in a postion to succeed, they snap teams out of slumps, he basically knows what buttons to push when. When has Willie done these things? I have a whole book on why needs to go…
PS. Omar’s firing will be the sequel. He needs to go now as well, you know wha’ I’m saying!
here is the problem with the team, right here, to quote from a previous post:
the Daily News, Adam Rubin quotes an anonymous player as saying, “It’s time for a change. Unfortunately, but it’s time.”
WOW, Willie has a bunch of rats playing behind him it sounds like. My money is on that being a Delgado quote. Whoever said that to Rubin is a d-bag. If you are going to say something like that, be a man and give your name. Or say it to the manager’s face. Unreal.
Matt, I disagree. I like Willie.I was all for him the last three years. but it’s time for him to go.
I just have mixed feelings about letting go of your manager this late in the season.
P.S. I need to also add. I don’t want anybody else but Omar Minaya as my GM. I’ve been a met fan for decades and while I dont love every move (Bell,Bannister, Flores) the good ones (some even great) outweigh the bad. The man got the “best pitcher in baseball” a 2 time cy young winning lefty, in the prime of his career. That doesnt happen!! Even bette,r he beat out the two biggest powers in all of baseball for him (Yanks and Sox). Milledge for Church! I hated HATED that move @ the time. Ryan Church is now one of the most exciting players on this team and a far better player than lastings milledge. Schneider as far as I’m concerned is now a throw-in. Maine, Perez, Pedro, Beltran, Wagner, Sanchez, Pelfrey (who I believe in).( I bet you this year’s draft class turns out to give us a couple of players.) Even now , he makes a move to address the “perceived problems” on this team by getting Trot Nixon for nothing. Omar is not the problem.
What a joke of a post- so if it’s not Willie’s fault and it’s not Willie’s fault that Delgado can’t hit an inside fastball and it’s not Willie’s fault that Wright is swinging at bad balls- fact is, you look at the body of work, and it has been BAD this year- all of this coming off of a historic COLLAPSE last year. So if it’s the players fault and we can’t blame Willie for the underachieving and bad baseball, etc.- well, if that’s the case, why should any coach/manager ever be fired?
When your team underachieves horrifically, you get fired- the head honcho takes the fall. Flip Saunders went to back to back Eastern Finals with the Pistons and he got canned. Ron Wilson won the President’s trophy and got terminated by San Jose. Grady Little blew a 3-4 game lead with ~15 games remaining and he got fired. It happens- in sports, you are hired to eventually get fired- these are very wealthy men,and Willie won’t go hungry, I assure you.
The Wilpons are very slow to react, always have been- do the Mets need to be 12-13 games out for a change to be made? Would that do it? In that case, the season would be over. I really think there is hesitancy to fire Randolph mostly because he is the first bl*ck manager in New York history- and the Wilpons are concerned about the negative PR from that. That’s the problem with them, and has been for 2 decades- they care more about PR than winning. Again- ridiculous post Matt. Are you an adopted son of Willie’s?
It is incomprehensible that heads have not rolled yet at Shea. At this point, I am beyond caring whose head(s)…just restore some sort of accountability into this organization!!! Personally, I’d satrt with Willie and Bernazard and put Omar on notice. But, my God, just do SOMETING to turn the page!