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Earlier today, MetsBlog detailed that Johan Santana’s win total is not a reflection of how he has pitched this season.
So, who’s to blame for the lack of Santana wins? Let’s find out as we play, The Santana Blame Game! Let’s meet our contestants:
Contestant #1:
Residing beyond the right field fence, where the tomato vines once grew, is the underachieving, Hello Kitty backpack wearing cast of characters know as the Mets bullpen!
They have a combined 4-4 record with a 4.41 ERA in Santana’s starts this season. They have also blown leads in six, including four of the last five, of Santana’s 24 starts this season, which is one more than the Twins bullpen accumulated in his last 100 starts with them.
Contestant #2:
A 54-year old American gangsta, born in Hahira, Georgia, who currently resides in the underground, bulletproof manager’s office of Shea Stadium. Say hello to Mets manager Jerry Manuel!
After inexplicably removing Santana after throwing 105 pitches through eight innings in a July 22 loss to the Phillies, you would have thought Manuel would have been less conservative in Santana’s future starts, but that has not been the case. Since that start the Manuel allowed Santana to complete a 118-pitch effort in a 9 to 1 blow out versus the Cardinals, but removed him after 103 and 104 pitches, respectively, in his last two starts, each resulting in a blown save.
Contestant #3:
He is a native of Venezuela and two-time Cy Young Award winner, who is doing his job and has the best goatee in the tri-state area, give a warm welcome to Johan Santana!
In Santana’s start on July 22 versus the Phillies, Jerry Manuel removed Santana after eight innings while throwing only 105 pitches. Later, in an interview, Manuel has said if Santana had come to him and was adamant about going out to start the ninth he would have left Santana in the game. Shouldn’t the Mets expect their $137 million pitcher to to want the ball in those spots? Perhaps, but since he became a full time starter in 2004, Santana has only pitched seven complete games, while average 6.2 innings per start.
Contestant #4:
This inconsistent group of 14, who is currently one of the worst in the National League at driving runners in from scoring position with two outs, forgets how to score after the seventh inning and carries three catchers. Give it up for the Mets Offense!
The Mets offense provided 5.14 runs of support during Santana’s starts this season, but has scored less than three runs or less in 33% of his starts this season. In his four consecutive starts from June 17 to July 4, the Mets offense scored a total of eight runs, with three of the four resulting in Santana losses.
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Combo of all four. Santana has too push his manager, the bullpen has to not suck as often, the offense should be more relaxed when he pitches not tight and the manager has to stop being such a book worm.
Down with the Pitch Count!! Dan Patrick had Nolan Ryan on his Radio Show earlier this week… Nolan’s highest pitch count in a game? 234 pitches… Are you friggon kidding me!!!! I find it hard to believe that Santana can’t go 125-140 with his pitch counts
Like Patrick said above, Santana could push Manuel to leave him in the game, but hasnt… Regardless of the teams efforts, that’s several wins Santana could have locked up. With those wins we’d be defending first place this weekend, instead of chasing it..
In the end that could be the difference between Jerry Manuel remaining as the teams Manager in the off-season, at some point he’s got to take a chance with the teams ace and get those wins…
Maybe we should have traded for Minn’s bullpen!
In order of most responsible to least responsible:
1, 4, 2, 3.
Also interesting to see that the Mets have had the most ABs with bases loaded in the entire MLB, but are only 21st in runs scored with bases loaded.
They are batting only .195 in that spot (29th out of 30 MLB teams). I knew it was bad…but not that bad.
combination of contestants 1 and 4
Bingo.
Honestly, WGAS about Johan Santana’s win total. What’s the Mets’ record in games he’s started? That’s all I care about.
Exactly. Wins are the stupidest stat ever invented. You’d think the bullpen ran over his dog or something. If sportswriters weren’t so ignorant and anachronistic it wouldn’t matter at all, and he’d still be a cy-contender.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that it is the stupidest stat ever invented. That goes to “the quality start” which is completely ridiculous. I still think it matters. Obviously the team winning is most important, but baseball is a game of stats more than any other sports. Like it or not, these guys care and they should. When I was playing team sports, I cared about my personal performance and stats. I cared about my teamates stats too. I wanted them to succeed individually but obviously the team winning is most important.
Anyway, Santana has no blame in this. Stop trying to nitpick because he doesn’t throw 9 innings. The guy pitches into the 7th inning every time out and gives up less than 2 runs. He should be 16 -6 right now in a perfect world so he is far from the problem. The bullpen and offense are to blame.
That’s not true. Quality starts at least tell you something — how consistent a pitcher is — even if there are better ways to go about it.
But a pitcher’s win-loss record is so dependent upon other factors that it tells you nothing about the pitcher himself. It’s completely useless.
And yet everyone gets worked up about it. Like the original commenter here said, all that matters is how many the Mets won or lost.
sure absolutely, but in three critical instances he pitched very solid games in which the Mets tossed.
7 innings against Arizona, no runs 10 ks left with a 4-0 lead. Mets lost.
8 innings in philly, no walks 6 ks allowed 2 runs, lost.
8 innings at shea vs philly, no walks 2 runs, left with a 5-2 lead, Mets lost.
“sure absolutely, but in three critical instances he pitched very solid games in which the Mets lossed.”
I agree - that’s the point - THE METS lost those games. That’s what I care about. Trust me, I’m not defending the horrific bullpen one iota. My point is I could care less about his win/loss record.
LOL, I was trying to correct your typo of “tossed” and I turned it into “lossed” instead of “lost.” Maybe I shoulda just left it alone.
That’s not the point. The point is the Mets are squandering chances. When you go into the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning with a lead, you should win a substantial amount of those games. Even if they give up the lead and eventually win anyway, it’s still a problem. They won’t always be able to come back, (see SEP, 2007) and keeping leads, which is what the lack of wins for Santana represents, is _very_ important.
All are to blame. You win and lose as a team.
But seriously, who cares? I don’t care how many games HE wins - I care about how many games the METS win when he pitches.
we heard the same crap when pedro 1st got here and when glavine was tryin to get to 300. enough with the blame games. the posters have that part covered every night with their 20/20 hindsight. no need to have an entire post of the same dribble.
Come on … clearly he posted this to make people laugh. Where is your sense of humor?
What does the “winning contestant” get then?
A stadium full of boos…
Big Bucks. Big Bucks. No Whammies. STOP!!!
1
Aaaand STOP on a Whammy, oh no…
“HEE HEE HEE HEE!!! I’M GOING TO STEAL YOUR WIN, JOHAN!!”
My favorite is “Super Whammy”, who thinks he is a real super hero and he tries to fly. Only to find out that he isn’t a real super hero and he crashes and burns - much like the hopes and dreams of the contestant who had visions of Press Your Luck GOLD!
1…2…4…3
It will all even out.
Perez got great run support in May & June
4-3 with era of 5.43
but they abandoned him in July — 1.38 era 1 win in 5 starts.
What, no poll? Easy, the bullpen. Count it!
You can put it on the boooooooaaaaard…YEEEEEEESSSS!!!!
For the life of me, I do not understand people who think Santana should be pushing to throw more pitches, or that the Mets should push him to do so. Santana is a guy who throughout his career has been a 7-inning pitcher. He is not Roy Halladay or CC Sabathia. That may have to do with his smaller frame, or something else about his build that I don’t know about, or because managers have been handling him conservatively. But in any case, that’s who he is, and it would be incredibly dumb to try to “stretch him” further, on a consistent basis, at this point in his career. I’m not saying he can’t be stretched in particular games, but to do so in general would be asking for disaster.
Will Carroll has coined the maxim, (I may not have it exactly) “pitching doesn’t cause injuries — pitching while tired causes injuries.” Regardless of whether or not Johan’s body can handle it, at this point in his career he’s accustomed to being a 7 inning pitcher. Regularly stretching him beyond that would be foolish.
The clear parties to blame here are the offense (predominantly) and the bullpen. Manuel may have a bit of a quick hook, but he’s only handling Santana the way he’s been handled throughout his career. If the Mets want to win for him, they should score more runs and stop blowing leads.
The blame has to be on the the bullpen first and on the offense second. They never hold any lead and the offense doesn’t do them any favors by not tacking on runs. You can’t blame Manuel or Santana. Santana is pitching very well and he isn’t throwing a CG every time out. You can’t blame Manuel because he is protecting our big investment. There is no point in leaving Santana on the mound to die in August of year one of a long contract.
“inexplicably removing Santana after throwing 105 pitches”
i love that the huge amount of research put into protecting a pitcher’s arm by limiting pitch count is ‘inexplicable’. pitchers’ arms get tired, fatigue leads to injuries. by all accounts, one hundred pitches seems to be the reasonable cutoff point. if you want to get your money’s worth out of santana, it’s not necessarily 8-9 innings and 110+ pitches every start, it’s seven full years of a very good HEALTHY pitcher.
and what is this blame over? santana has been awesome. are we seriously having this conversation because of his lack of personal wins? here’s the trick: realize that wins for a pitcher is an incredibly stupid and pointless metric. ignore it completely and it will become clear that santana has been as good as we can ask and the bullpen has been bad. it is that simple. the problem is the METS are losing.
think about it- if we had the ‘06 bullpen, would anybody ever complain about santana coming out at 100+ pitches or after 7 innings? just because the bullpen stinks this year doesn’t mean you should put your best player at a greater injury risk.
It’s not pointless, in fact, it highlights an important flaw in the Mets team. Their inability to hold leads late in games. It’s not like Santana isn’t able to pitch better than his