Comments on: Opinion: The Santana Blame Game http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/ MetsBlog.com features the latest Mets rumors, player movement, and news circulating around the Internet, as well as Mets related insights and opinions by Matthew Cerrone and his team of guest bloggers. Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:44:52 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Free Aaron Heilman II http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-291073 Free Aaron Heilman II Sat, 09 Aug 2008 13:16:16 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-291073 The bullpen has been an absolute disgrace in Santana starts, especially Wagner. There is no excuse for it. And there is no way they should push Santana and risk his arm and gazillions of dollars just to compensate for such a poor pen. If they can't get just 3 or 6 outs to preserve a Santana win, then the chances of the Mets ever getting to the WS are very slim. So save Santana's arm for a year in which the bullpen isn't such a disgrace. The bullpen has been an absolute disgrace in Santana starts, especially Wagner. There is no excuse for it.

And there is no way they should push Santana and risk his arm and gazillions of dollars just to compensate for such a poor pen. If they can’t get just 3 or 6 outs to preserve a Santana win, then the chances of the Mets ever getting to the WS are very slim. So save Santana’s arm for a year in which the bullpen isn’t such a disgrace.

]]> By: Two-By-Four http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290640 Two-By-Four Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:22:03 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290640 Some of the people that post here were raised during a time when the mark of an ace was completing your own game. If you look at the top starting pitchers of the 1970’s you will see pitchers such as Steve Carleton that started 41 games in 1972 and completed 30 of them winning 27 games for a team that won 59 games total. Carleton threw 343.3 innings that year. BTW Carleton pitched in the majors for over 20 years. In 1969 Tom Seaver started 35 games and completed 18 of them pitching 273.3 innings. They are using that as their criteria in today’s environment and that is dead wrong. They have to view Santana using today’s standards. Pitchers are limited in the amount of pitches and innings they throw. And among today’s pitchers Santana is one of the best and performing exactly as he had done with the Twins. Some of the people that post here were raised during a time when the mark of an ace was completing your own game. If you look at the top starting pitchers of the 1970’s you will see pitchers such as Steve Carleton that started 41 games in 1972 and completed 30 of them winning 27 games for a team that won 59 games total. Carleton threw 343.3 innings that year. BTW Carleton pitched in the majors for over 20 years. In 1969 Tom Seaver started 35 games and completed 18 of them pitching 273.3 innings. They are using that as their criteria in today’s environment and that is dead wrong. They have to view Santana using today’s standards. Pitchers are limited in the amount of pitches and innings they throw. And among today’s pitchers Santana is one of the best and performing exactly as he had done with the Twins.

]]> By: drtmuir http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290619 drtmuir Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:49:44 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290619 Dude, the Hello Kitty pack has been gone for weeks-- It's a Disney Princess backpack now. That might be it-- Bring back Hello Kitty! Dude, the Hello Kitty pack has been gone for weeks– It’s a Disney Princess backpack now. That might be it– Bring back Hello Kitty!

]]> By: rM teM http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290616 rM teM Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:45:05 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290616 Maybe we should have traded for Minn's bullpen! Maybe we should have traded for Minn’s bullpen!

]]> By: beltran the warrior http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290608 beltran the warrior Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:25:12 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290608 it's time people start realising that manuel is basically willie randolph who smiles and says "no question" to begin every response with ed coleman on the fan pregame. it’s time people start realising that manuel is basically willie randolph who smiles and says “no question” to begin every response with ed coleman on the fan pregame.

]]> By: sincekindergarten http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290606 sincekindergarten Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:12:11 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290606 Bingo. Bingo.

]]> By: Ceetar http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290596 Ceetar Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:54:30 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290596 It's not pointless, in fact, it highlights an important flaw in the Mets team. Their inability to hold leads late in games. It's not like Santana isn't able to pitch better than his opponents, because he leaves most of these games on the winning side. Pitcher's are not robots, I'm not advocating that Santana or anyone should go back to throwing every other day 150+ pitches, but as Leo Mazzone would say, you should pitch until you're tired because your arm feels tired, not because you think your arms tired because you're at 100 pittches. All you're doing is talking the pitcher into being tired. Maybe some pitchers (Pedro) need to be pulled by that point, but maybe others are fine, can pitch 120 most outings, and be fine for the long haul. Everyone's different, and (my only real gripe with Peterson) they don't all fit into some profile and algorithm or pattern. It’s not pointless, in fact, it highlights an important flaw in the Mets team. Their inability to hold leads late in games. It’s not like Santana isn’t able to pitch better than his opponents, because he leaves most of these games on the winning side.

Pitcher’s are not robots, I’m not advocating that Santana or anyone should go back to throwing every other day 150+ pitches, but as Leo Mazzone would say, you should pitch until you’re tired because your arm feels tired, not because you think your arms tired because you’re at 100 pittches. All you’re doing is talking the pitcher into being tired. Maybe some pitchers (Pedro) need to be pulled by that point, but maybe others are fine, can pitch 120 most outings, and be fine for the long haul. Everyone’s different, and (my only real gripe with Peterson) they don’t all fit into some profile and algorithm or pattern.

]]> By: twassel http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290594 twassel Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:52:22 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290594 Forget pitch counts for a moment. Number of batters faced is a better measurement, as it represents individual battles with hitters. Look at the number of batters faced in each start. Out of the 116 games started so far, there have been nine where the starter has faced 30 or more batters. Santana has pitched seven of those nine games. (Perez and Maine had the other two.) Not counting his 5 inning rain-shortened appearance (in which he was pitching a shutout), Santana has averaged 28 batters faced per game, far more than anyone else on the staff. Santana has been a rock, and anybody who thinks differently is just foolish. Forget pitch counts for a moment. Number of batters faced is a better measurement, as it represents individual battles with hitters. Look at the number of batters faced in each start. Out of the 116 games started so far, there have been nine where the starter has faced 30 or more batters. Santana has pitched seven of those nine games. (Perez and Maine had the other two.) Not counting his 5 inning rain-shortened appearance (in which he was pitching a shutout), Santana has averaged 28 batters faced per game, far more than anyone else on the staff. Santana has been a rock, and anybody who thinks differently is just foolish.

]]> By: Ceetar http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290591 Ceetar Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:49:04 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290591 That's not the point. The point is the Mets are squandering chances. When you go into the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning with a lead, you should win a substantial amount of those games. Even if they give up the lead and eventually win anyway, it's still a problem. They won't always be able to come back, (see SEP, 2007) and keeping leads, which is what the lack of wins for Santana represents, is _very_ important. That’s not the point. The point is the Mets are squandering chances. When you go into the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning with a lead, you should win a substantial amount of those games. Even if they give up the lead and eventually win anyway, it’s still a problem. They won’t always be able to come back, (see SEP, 2007) and keeping leads, which is what the lack of wins for Santana represents, is _very_ important.

]]> By: toomanyuniforms http://www.metsblog.com/2008/08/08/opinion-the-santana-blame-game/#comment-290589 toomanyuniforms Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:45:39 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/?p=16370#comment-290589 Pressing offense + volatile bullpen = close games and blown leads. And oh yeah, Santana himself has had a chronicled tendency to blow the slim leads the offense gives him. Pressing offense + volatile bullpen = close games and blown leads.

And oh yeah, Santana himself has had a chronicled tendency to blow the slim leads the offense gives him.

]]>