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In yesterday’s series-win against the Padres, Johan Santana let up just two runs and four hits while striking out seven hitters, but Scott Schoeneweis let up a game-tying home run in the ninth inning meaning Santana would not get credit for the win.
Santana has allowed just five runs in his last 30 innings pitched, yet the team is just 2–2.
His 2.85 ERA is fifth-best in the National League, his 135 strike outs are good for seventh, and only two other pitchers have thrown more ‘quality starts,’ yet he is 21st in wins.
On six occasions this season, including yesterday, Santana has left the game with a lead, after which the bullpen gave it up.
Santana, regarding his performance and the team’s bullpen, while talking to reporters following yesterday’s win:
“I mean, there’s not much I can say. You know, I mean, really, there’s not much I can say. We won the game, and that’s what matters. I’m here to help this team in any way I can…I don’t try to impress anybody (statistically), I know what I’m capable of doing…It’s not about that, it’s about being consistent and doing my job, that’s all, that’s the way I approach the game…I’m just trying to be myself, and trying to help…I only have nine wins, that’s the reality. I don’t blame that on anybody. I don’t feel sorry for things that couldn’t happen, didn’t happen, that’s just the way it is. I’m a realistic man, and this is reality and that’s the way it goes and you learn from that…
“(I’ve learned that) you’ve got to be patient and never give up. I’m here for a reason and that’s why they brought me here, and I’m not trying to be a hero, I’m just trying to be myself and trying to help them in any way that I can. I stand behind my team 100 percent, and as long as we win the game that’s all that matters.”
…i have no idea how he keeps himself from screaming…frankly, he looked like he was going to wig out in the dugout after Scott Schoeneweis let up the game-tying home run in the ninth inning yesterday…that said, he said all the right things in the above quote, and i believe he means it…he sounds a bit frustrated, as he should, a) because i am sure he would like to get credit in the stat line, and b) because i think he knows there are fans and media-types who will only see that he has nine wins, when in reality he is pitching very well and the team is winning, which is all that matters, but which nobody will notice…
…added to by Regis Courtemanche…
…i understand why jerry manuel wouldn’t want to wear santana out, but i think he could stretch him a bit further in games…four of santana’s last five games have been no decisions, and with wagner out, i don’t see any problem with santana closing out the game himself…with the likes of a john maine who has only pitched more than seven innings once this year i understand pulling him, but i say let johan play…
I’m really surprised he doesn’t have voodoo dolls of everyone in the bullpen.
I can’t believe Santana has been able to keep his cool. What does he have to do to get a win, throw a no hitter. If this keeps going on for the next few starts I think Santana is going to get so frustrated that he will lose his cool.
Part of this is his own fault. Aces should be able to go longer than 100 pitches.
Well it is Jerry’s decision. He should know by now the bullpen sucks and he should of told Santana to go another inning or two.
Johan is 4th in the NL in Innings Pitched.
I guess there aren’t every many aces.
OR there aren’t many fans who like to use evidence to back up their arguments
HOW can anybody actually fault Johan for the bullpen’s inability to hold his leads ?!?!
It doesn’t make sense to have him throw 120+ EVERY game because we can’t afford for him to have dead arm come September and HOPEFULLY October.
He’s given the us a chance to win every game he’s pitched, even in his two truly “bad” starts vs. Milwuakee and @ Cinci.
He’s still the best pitcher in baseball and I wouldn’t want us to have anybody else instead of him.
If he truly cares about winning as a team, yesterday shouldn’t bother him at all. He won’t be making any more money on his next contract based on his 2008 win total.
Tho I guess if you tack on 3-4 wins he could get more Cy Young votes, which could affect his 2014 option. If he is thinking about that at all tho…
IF Johan would go tell Jerry “I AM FINISHING THIS GAME” he would have a few more wins- 100 pitches, 125 pitches on a grown man in good shape should not be much difference.
Jerry took Johan out. Did he look happy coming out of the game? He looked pissed. But it’s the manager’s decision.
The guy is 4th in the NL in IP, not very far away from 1st, and it’s still not good enough for some of you.
What do you expect from the man? He’s been awesome.
Awesome? What are you talking about? He isn’t 23-0 with 250 strikeouts and he hasn’t even thrown a single perfect game yet! Not even a no-hitter! He sucks! Talk about a waste of money! If only we still had Ruben Gotay, Brian Bannister, and Heath Bell…
I hope, I hope, I hope no one is dumb enough to not pick up on the sarcasm…
But then, I hope a lot of things….
your asking a lot there
to the perfectgame…
i believe you were just kidding so i wont comment on that BS lol
This bull pen is going to cost the Mets the division! Way to go Omar.
If we had traded away our few stars on the farm in order to get new (but not necessarliy better) arms in the pen, we might find ourselves not scoring any runs and therefore not having a lead to save (since guys like Daniel Murphy would have been traded away rather than saving our veterans butts by knocking in the runs).
“when in reality he is pitching very well and the team is winning, which is all that matters, but which nobody will notice…”
People notice.
Does anyone notice that Howie Rose (WFAN660) broadcaster is always all over Santana for not going more that 110+ pitches. As Danny mentioned above he is 4th in the league in innings pitched. What more does ROSE want out of an ACE he is giving us innings. Its burning me up to hear rose talk about it every 5th day,
maybe we should play with fire and take a chance of hurting our ace, and thats what he is, an ace! We are hurting without our closer, imagine where this team would be without Santana. Ouch! right there with atlanta.
Are you people kidding me? This guy goes at least 7 innings in EVERY SINGLE START! Most of the time he has the lead, the bullpen is supposed to get people out, that is there job. While I agree that after giving up 2 garbage singles in the 8th he could have finished, but he didnt, and he still did what he is supposed to do, LEAVE THE GAME AFTER 7 INNINGS WITH THE LEAD!! Johan does his job every single start and the bullpen does not do theirs! He has 10 no decisions in which hes allowed 3 runs or less and the bullpen has blown 6 potential wins for him. If 5 of those 10 no decisions are wins because the offense did their job and 5 of the 6 blown saves dont happen because the bullpen did their job, then Johan Santana has 19 WINS ON AUGUST 8TH!!! Are you kidding me?? Worse case scenario he should have about 16 wins and be in a neck and neck race for the Cy Young with Brandon Webb.
ITS TIME TO GET OFF OF SANTANAS BACK! Hes having the season we all envisioned him having, but his TEAM is not cooperating
No, that is not correct. Of those 10 no-decisions where he gave up 3 ER or less, the 6 blown leads are included in that, not in addition to.
Yes that is true but the logic still stands, If the team didnt blow 5 of the 6 leads and the offense scored runs in 2 of the 4 remaining games he would have 16 wins on august 8th, it was a little early in the morning and I was slightly off in my thinking but the point remains, people need to get off of this guy’s back
Prediction:
Pedro will reinvent himself and be dominant down the stretch (without incurring any more injuries).
I think he will be strong down the stretch as well, but i dont think he needs to reinvent himself, just get better command of his location.
he is sitting around 90, which is plenty good, but he is also known for his surgical precision and he has not had that.
my hope is that it is nothing more than the long layoff and if he gets control of all of his pitches back, he has a real chance to be strong down the stretch
One of the reasons I love baseball — and also one of the reasons why the game is so frequently misunderstood — is that it is a battle of intellects just as much as it is a battle of athletic skills. Sure, there is a mental component to almost every game, but I think it is especially true in baseball that the smartest players are the best players.
And this is why I have no worry about Pedro Martinez. Look at his performance Wednesday night. He comes out and gives up two home runs in the first inning, one of them on his very first pitch. With a lot of pitchers, that would be the end of the line; they’d lose all their confidence and be lucky to get out of the inning alive.
But Pedro, with his years of experience and, especially, his tremendous intelligence, just calmly analyzed the situation and then compensated. Pedro has a tremendous physical gift that cannot be ignored, of course, but he also has the intelligence to recognize where he’s falling short on any given day and make the small adjustments necessary to correct the problem. So yeah, he gave up two runs early on Wednsday, but he then proceeded to pitch five hitles innings.
I am not worried about Pedro at all. He is among the smartest pitchers in baseball, and if he can’t beat you with his velocity, he’ll find some other way to beat you.
thank you, magic for agreeing with me. PEDRO MARTINEZ IS NOT A 5th starter. the only reason, you dont know what you are gonna get. when he gets on a roll, he will be the 2nd starter, your telling me he is better than john maine, ollie, and my guy big pelf, no no and triple no. when his offspeed stuff is working, he is one of the best pitchers in baseball as said in 05
Statistics matter for PERSONAL three reasons: size of your next contract, individual awards, and legacy for HOF consideration. (the most important consideration is whether he did his part to help his team win on each day he pitches, on that count he has done his job)
the first is not a concern, the second is only a one year impact, and the third wont likely be derailed by one unlucky season.
there still is the pride factor of living up to his new contract, but it looks like Johan is trying to come to grips with the fact he is delivering the sort of performances the team expected,f but in today’s game, the ultimate fate of the game almost always ends up in the hands of a team’s bullpen.
besides, can we get a few more laughers for him by plating a runner from third base with less than one out?
ask Bert Blyleven and Tommy John if a few unlucky non-wins matter when it comes to Cooperstown…
Cole Hamels is 9-8 … just sayin’
That bullpen gives me acid reflux disease just watching Gameday and reading box scores. Question is, are the Mets’ bats missing their 7th inning tee time? it feels like everybody else is showing up.
Unless he cares about Cy Young it doesnt really matter honestly. He’s already put himself in a situation to be one of the highest paid pitchers ever…He’s not exactly playing for a contract ya’ll
I feel like the same situation happened with Glavine over his time here. I know Santana is having a phenomenal year with regards to ERA, K’s and everything if only the media would get it through their head that wins are the most useless stat in the world. A few years ago Steve Trax and Randy Johnson put up 15 wins with ERA’s above 5. Santana has an ERA below 3 yet he is not getting the job done? Give me a break.
I get the feeling next year we will see this guy get the wins and the stats combined and we will truly see what we are paying him so much money for. For now he needs to continue doing what he is doing and Omar needs to find a damn bullpen arm that isn’t useless.
I hate to burst your statistical bubble, but the only st that matters is wins and losses. When they decide who get to the playoff on ERA or Ks then come back wirth this line.
The only stat that matters then is team wins and loses and a lot of stat guys would be out of buisness and there would be no HOF.
You think that if Pedro and Randy Johnson retired today, both under 300 wins, they would not make the HOF?
that’s the most ridiculous comment. So you’re saying you’d rather have a guy with 15 wins but a 5.00 ERA over a guy with 9 wins and a 2.85 ERA? Can you please become the GM of the Phillies or Yankees?
Johan……. The best 9-7 pitcher of…… all time. Ok, maybe not but he has to be close. All I care is that he puts us in a position to win the game everytime. I think he is second in the NL in quality starts and has only had 1 BAD start. He’s worth every bit of the money and prospects to me.
I 100% agree real. Unfortunatly the media and a few posters do not. This guy imo worth every penny.
Not to mention guys he is doing this in his 1st season in NY. Not too many stars are able to do that. Next year, watch out.
I was about to reply the same thing to another poster. He is still adjusting to the league and the hitters in the NL. Once he gets a better idea about the NL and brian gets into santanas head…something to watch for sure
I was thinking that while watching the game yesterday. I have a feeling next year he’s gonna have a lights out, dominant, Cy Young type of year. No real basis, just a gut feeling.
“…i have no idea how he keeps himself from screaming”
Are you kidding. Did you forget his conrtract???
The official scorer should have discretion and if I recal correctly does have some discretion concerning wins and losses. For instance, if a pitcher leaves the game with a large lead and the bullpen blows it, the scorer can presumably not reward to poor effort with a win. You never see it, though. I think MLB should instruct official scorers to give the win to the pitcher who made the greatest contribution to the win. If a starter pitches 7 innings and leaves with a lead and the pen blows it but the team wins, the starter gets the win. It’s ridiculous that a pitcher can come in and throw a few pitches to get out of an inning–maybe after blowing the lead— and has the sheer luck that the team goes ahead immediately after and he gets the win.
But baseball is so conservative, they’ll never address this because it skews comparisons with players from other eras who dealt with the consequences of the same stupid rule.
However, the game has changed—and the rules should change with it—the bull pen has a lot more responsibility (and a lot more opportunity to sabotage a good start) for reasons Ron Darling has explained well…Because they now understand the amount of stress pitching puts on an arm and because of the economic investment of the team in the pitcher, managers and GMs now realize they NEED to protect their pitchers. Jerry Manuel clearly understands this…he wants Santana to be effective for the whole season and years to come…
I feel for Santana…not his wallet, but his person. It must be frustrating…Ground Hog Day.
I agree that the Win should possibly be looked into being changed (and don’t even get me started on the save). Wins and Losses used to be a very good means of judging pitchers, when they threw complete games about 80% of the time, but now that they throw complete games about 1% of the time, well, it doesn’t work so well…
This guy Tom Hanks once said, “There’s no crying in baseball!” Santana shouldn’t cry about his win/loss record (not saying he is) and neither should any fans.
Win/Loss records for pitchers are over rated. The goal is to win games … individual records are for losers.
I really don’t hear that many people crying. I here a lot of people commenting that Johan is not very good, or should not be a whimp and pitch more innings….. Or a lot of people trying to defend him and say he would have more wins……
At this point it’s just a good ole debate.
I really didn’t single anyone out though, did I?
I’m just making a point.
No, you did not. I was just making the point that it’s been much worse. Especially after a loss. Today I really don’t see anyone crying
If there was then you could just ask them if they wanted Steve I got 15 wins with a 6 ERA Trax back for Johan.
You know that’s funny because that is the EXACT comparison I was literally just thinking of. Steve Trax. Funny you said that.
There seems to be a double standard regarding Santana’s pitch count amongst us.
People complain that his velocity on his fastball has dropped this year. Then people complain that he doesn’t go out and throw 120 pitches every start.
Do people realize that super high pitchcounts and decreasing velocity go hand-in-hand?
He’s going to be here for seven years, and will be paid quite handsomely to do so. I’d much rather see him get 12 wins with a 2.85 ERA this year and stay in top form throughout the contract, than see him win 18 games in his first three years and burn out in year four.
Good point, fix the damn pen.
Got get Krod next year and let Kunz and hopefully a healthy Sanchez compete for the the setup man.
(Trade Wagner unless he wants to be a setup man LOL, he will waive his no trade clause)
I’d like to think that if the Mets were to go out and bring in K-Rod next year, the two of them would share closing duties. Considering Wagner is planning on retiring after ‘09, he should have no gripes about it..its not like he is playing for a contract.
K-Rod on the other hand will get his 5 year deal, and after year 1, becomes the man…..Can you imagine haing k-rod/wagner as the 8th inning guy, and having Feliciano/Smith/Heilman/Wagner in the 7th?
Nope, I don’t think Wagner would ever agree to it. He is chasing the saves record and would not want to be a co-closer. Nor would Frod come here to be a setup man or co-closer.
Tell Wagner he will be the setup man. If he is ok with that then fine. If not, he will waive his no-trade clause.
kevinz, you hit the nail on the head!! What do some of these dumb posters want?? Santana to be injured in year 2 of his contract because of high pitch counts??? Some of you should pull your heads out of your a@# and smarten up.
I long for the day when pitchers are no longer evaluated based on their W-L record. What a stupid stat. 2nd only to “the save” as the worst stat in baseball. Johan has been all we could ask for, one of the top 5 pitchers in the NL.
Same stuff used to happen to him in Minnesota. Unfortunately baseball writers are all living in the stone age and robbed him of the Cy Young in 2005 cause he had less wins then Bartolo Colon (but had him beat in literally every other stat category).
Eh, as long as you understand what a save is it is a good stat. Yes you don’t have to throw many pitches to get it sometimes but as we have seen they can be some of the toughest pitches of the game. The good closers that do it every year, not the 1 year wonders, are really valuable to their team.
Problem is, a guy comes into the game in the 9th with a 3 run lead, no one on base, and if he gives up 2 homers and the team still wins, he gets a “save”. It’s a truly awful stat.
If not for the “save”, we’d see Billy Wagner come into games in the 7th or 8th inning with the game on the line (when you want your bullpen ace pitching) rather than a Sanchez or a Schoenweis. If not for the “save”, Billy Wagner is pitching in the 8th inning of Friday night’s game in Houston, and the game tied 3-3, and NOT Aaron Heilman.
I think they need to reduce the runs part but a save is still an important stat. I agree that the baseball world puts too much on the stat and it causes managers to save their closer but that’s life.
no, the save is an AWFUL stat. It’s the only statistic in sports that causes a manager to manage based on a statistic. It’s absolutely ridiculous. As JamesK said, would you rather your best relief pitcher come in in the 7th inning with bases loaded and 1 out with a 1-run lead, or to start the 9th with a 3-run lead?
Plus, consider this: last year JJ Putz was one of the best closers in baseball, but when the Mariners lost 13 of 14 to fall out of the playoff race in August & September, he only pitched twice. You’d think when your team is at its make or break part of the season you’d want to get your best pitcher into the game as much as possible.
Meant to post this here…sorry.
I agree that W-L is an overused, misleading stat. It could be more meaningful .
The official scorer should have discretion and, if I recall correctly, does have some discretion concerning wins and losses. For instance, if a pitcher leaves the game with a lead and the bullpen blows it, the scorer can presumably not reward a poor effort with a win. You never see it, though. I think MLB should instruct official scorers to give the win to the pitcher who made the greatest contribution to the win. If a starter pitches 7 innings and leaves with a lead and the pen blows it but the team wins, the starter should get the win. It’s ridiculous that a pitcher can come in and finish an inning–maybe after blowing the lead— and has the sheer luck that the team goes ahead immediately after and he gets the win.
But baseball is so conservative, they’ll never address this because it skews comparisons with players from other eras who dealt with the consequences of the same stupid rule.
However, the game has changed—and the rules should change with it—the bull pen has a lot more responsibility (and a lot more opportunity to sabotage a good start) for reasons Ron Darling has explained well…Because they now understand the amount of stress pitching puts on an arm and because of the economic investment of the team in the pitcher, managers and GMs now realize they NEED to protect their pitchers. Jerry Manuel clearly understands this…he wants Santana to be effective for the whole season and years to come…
I feel for Santana…not his wallet, but his person. It must be frustrating…Ground Hog Day.
Sorry, I meant to say, the PRACTICE of giving wins to the pitcher who was on the mound when the team took the lead should be changed, NOT THE RULE. As I noted, I think the rule allows the official scorer not to do this. Am I wrong?
It is funny how baseball contradicts itself by saying a starter has to go 5 innings to get a win but a reliever has to get 1 out.
The rule is “brief and ineffective” and it is hardly invoked.
there have been 10 times Santana has given up 2 ER or less and not gotten the win. Mets have lost 7 of those games.
Hate to say it….Kunz for closer.
What do we have to lose?
games
what i think is that johan santana has gone far above and beyond the call of duty, anyway, he has been everything that the new york mets wanted when they signed him. whenever someone or some radio guy says he didnt ask for the ball. TELL ME HOW HE DIDNT DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING HONESTLY. second, he is 4th in innings pitched, 7th in strikeouts, and 5th in era, so yeah he is doing his job. as for 125 pitches, no, honestly, they are being careful, and i applaud that, because johan has 7 complete games in his career and has averaged just less than 7 innings in his twins career, so he has done his job. had the bullpen not blown the game, he would have 15 wins right now, 15 wins, and he would the frontrunner for the cy young with brandon webb. you gotta love how he has been cool with the situation, cuz someoneelse would probably just flip out. so yeah, this is our ace, this is our pitcher, this is johan santana, and i have no problem with what he has done as the ace of the staff.
I agree- he should be in the neighboorhood of 13-14 wins at this point. No luck and a lousy bullpen… Anybody missing Wagner yet-btw can Feliciano complete mor than 2/3 of an inning please.
I don’t believe in stretching Santana out just because the bullpen has been so crappy. If they are that crappy, then the Mets have little chance to get to the World Series. In which case, save his arm for a year in which they have a better shot. I am of the belief that a pitcher has just so many bullets to spare so it’s wise to use them efficiently.