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On Sunday, Jerry Manuel told reporters that Billy Wagner will be activated on August 18, the first day he is eligible.
The thing is, Wagner is tied with Ryan Franklin and Jason Isringhausen for having the most blown saves of any relief pitcher in the National League.
Manuel, talking to reporters after yesterday’s loss:
“Well, I probably need to make some adjustments. Period. We can’t continue to perform this way late in the game…I just have to make some adjustments…I’ve got to figure out what I have and who is willing to step up in those roles…I’ve got to use all the options that I have here…I might start using starters down there or something (smiling).”
Though Manuel never mentioned a specific starting pitcher by name, when asked if John Maine could be used as a one-inning closer after he returns from the DL tomorrow, he said, “Everything from here on out is a possibility.”
That said, Manuel did acknowledge that Aaron Heilman will no longer be used in such a role.
According to the New York Post, who has ‘learned all three main scenarios the organization is now mulling,’ the Mets will 
first turn to Eddie Kunz as the team’s closer, until Wagner returns; the Mets could keep Brian Stokes in the rotation, and turn to Maine or Oliver Perez to help in the bullpen; and, lastly, they intend to call up Jon Niese.
…actually, last week, i heard that niese could be considered as an option for the bullpen, since a) he is close to reaching his max innings in the minor leagues, b) he is a lefty, c) he has a wicked curve ball, d) he’s a smart, strong and healthy kid, and so e) he could be quite effective against major-leaguers who have yet to see him, especially when pitching one inning at a time…then, next season, he’d return to being a starting pitcher…
…regardless, at this point, all options must be on the table, because this is essentially the exact same situation that doomed this team last season…for all the praise the Phillies received, it was the Mets bullpen – and then starting pitchers – who ‘collapsed,’ letting the Phillies slide through the sidedoor and in to the post-season…
…if all else fails, the Mets should put Omar Minaya on the mound, because, frankly, it’s starting to feel as though his lack of action – be it in the off-season, or at the trade deadline – is starting to bite his staff in the behind…
…this is essentially the exact same bullpen that failed him in 2007, and yet omar’s only moves were Matt Wise, who is out for the year; Steven Register, who was cut from the roster; and hoping for a strong return from Duaner Sanchez, who looks exhausted and has totally lost his fastball in recent weeks…
…to omar’s credit, though, the buzz from shea during July was that he had been working hard to change the dynamic of the pen, as he tried to acquire a relief pitcher to add in the mix…however, teams were asking for too much in return, which is obvious when you consider that not only was Huston Street and JJ Putz not traded, but neither was George Sherrill, Luis Ayala, Cla Meredith and Ron Mahay, all while several teams were looking for relief help – in other words, evidence shows that teams were truly asking for too much in return…
…it’s easy for us to sit here and say, ‘Well, Omar should have done something.’…however, when other teams were just as needy and did nothing, like omar, it suggests an acquisition was not as as simple as just wishing for it to happen…
…that said, Arthur Rhodes and Chad Bradford were traded in exchange for one minor-leaguer…and while a player like Scott Eyre is hardly exciting, as he was recently traded to the Phillies, at least he’s some one different…
…in the end, it’s truly a shame, because, between the Mets, Phillies and Marlins, the Mets have the easiest schedule from now through the end of the season…of course, that means nothing if the bullpen isn’t there to close the deal…
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With calling up Niese, and keeping Kunz and Stokes up, and Wagner returning soon…which reliever(s) will be sent down?
My vote: all of them!
Second.
Can we please get rid of Scott BLOWenweis. I mean this guy is the worst. I know Heilman has had plenty of issues in the Pen , but he’s also has come thru at times. BLOWenweis is just straight up Garbage. I cannot see this guy in a Mets uni again next year.
Well, he is signed for next year at a very high price. Unless Omar finds a taker (which isn’t likely), be prepared to see him again to open CitiField.
Well, to be fair, the Phillies did have a better record in June, July, August, and September of 2007 than the Mets. That was opening a lot of ’sidedoors’.
I’m guessing the Mets’ average lead throughout the season was 2 or 3 games, that 7 game lead was more coincidence of a slight Mets roll and Phillies slide at the same time more than a reflection of the gap between the two teams for 2/3 of the season.
Thats horrible logic bogar. Obviously our record wasn’t as good down the stretch . Why? because our pitching kept blowing games! Yes our offense disappeared, but to say the Phillies had a better record and thats why they got in, well duh. If we didnt lose so many games because of blown leads or increased deficits, then maybe we would have more wins. wow…groundbreaking.
The Mets had losing record in June and July of 07. Then only 2 games over in August and dead even in September.
It took 4 months to lose the season, not 17 games. It was a team effort, as you pointed out. “The offense disappeared”. There was also shaky baserunning plays (Marlon Anderson, Jose Reyes) bad defense, etc etc etc
That seven game lead was the result of coincidence? Pretend for a second that I even know what you mean by that. A seven game lead is still a seven game lead, and you have to go far out of your way to blow something like that in 17 games. Even if that 7 game lead were an act of congress or God, or both, it’s was still a freaking 7 game lead!!!!
Here’s what I’m getting at…
Mets led by 7 games exactly 2 days the entire season.
To say they blew a 7 gm lead makes it sound like they had that lead a little more than 2 days.
Most of the year their lead was 2, 3, 4 games, that area.
The Phillies were 2 1/2 gms better than the Mets in June.
3 games better in July.
1 game better in August.
At the end of August they were 2 games out.
Then they went on a losing streak while Mets on a winning streak. That’s the coincidence. Mets lead got to 7. For the second and last day of the season.
Then both reverted to the mean…Mets cooled off, Phils played better.
And the lead was right back to the area it was for most of the season, in the 2, 3, 4 game size.
I’m with you Prismo!!
I’m ordering a code red on the Mets bullpen.
Isn’t that a Mountain Dew product?
hahahahaha, LOVE the obscure movie references
that was hardly an obscure movie… it was even nominated for an oscar
Once again: This is the same bunch of guys who couldn’t do last year, why should we expect anything different this year?
because at this time last year we were in first place…
Its a new year bro deal with it….cant collapse if they are not in first
You can very well collapse and not be in first. For example, going from 2 games out to 10 games out in a few weeks. Now that would be a collapse.
Yes it is a different year, but I would not bet on this team as is. There has to be something changed in the ‘pen.
I was referring to the collapse of last year..your right you can very well collapse and fall way back. My point is simple..You cannot judge this team and base the outcome of this year because of what happened last year. We didnt have santana/pedro/sanchez and even joe smith at this time of the year. Its a different team so therefore it will be different results.
very true…its just the way we are losing feels very similar to last year. Yes our offense has struggled with RISP, but I think everyone would agree it has been better than last year. the fact is, the bullpen is consitently setting our offense up to fail.
Exactly!!
The offense can hit 10 runs in a game but you can almost count on the bullpen to give the game right back and give the other team a chance. It must be tough for the SP and Offense or this group to consider what is enough to win.
Offense? 9 out of 10 times, 5 runs against the Pirates is more than enough….
agreed, if the bullpen gives up 6 ER in a game, what is the offense supposed to do?
As much as billy gave us grey hairs with his adventurous 9th innings…cant deny his value to the team at this point. That being said…i think they sould give the closer role to kunz. I know kunz gave that hr up a while ago but i feel like it was just nerves that let that sinker get away from him. If kunz can handle his then we are fine but if not..some one suggested it before to let pelf close out games. Pelf when hes on has a very good sinker and hard stuff, plus theres this fear that he might be hitting a wall due to IP so far this year. I think we need maine in the rotation and leave stokes in there as well. Manuel has to go back to his old philosophy of roles for this bullpen and for god sakes do not use heilman in pressure situations or with men on base. We have learned our lesson with heilman and frankly in my opinion if he has options USE EM and bring someone else up.
Exactly. Heilman is okay with nobody on and before the 9th inning. Use him ONLY for that.
And i agree, we have to try any other option at this point. Schoeneweis and Feliciano gotta go, and Smith should be sent down until September. I’m less sure about Sanchez, but he also does okay in early relief with nobody on.
Smith is effective, but we are abusing him. We have a bullpen full of specialist, why are we using them as normal relievers? Oh, maybe because there is no one else.
Because you have to have somebody face more than one or two batters at a time, otherwise you’d blow through the entire pen in two innings every game.
isn’t that what we are doing? I have see situational pitching changes every game. That cant be good. Obviously, it hasn’t.
Yes, but not because they’re not being used correctly, but because they all suck.
I dunno about making Pelf the closer- if he really is hitting a wall then maybe- but if he can keep giving us quality starts then thats more valuable because he’d likely go deeper into games then Stokes.
I would keep Stokes in the pen- send down Muniz when Maine comes back. Put Sanchez on the DL and call up Niese. Also keep Collazo and Parnell in mind if we need more help.
a solid plan
Collazo is terrible. Different name, same (if not worse) results.
What about Matt Lindstrom? Oh, yeah, I forgot.
Why are you crediting Omar for trying to get a releiver. Why aren’t you blasting him for FAILING? The very fact that a decent reliever like Bradford was moved for very little demonstrates Minaya’s fatal flaw. He always goes after the big name only and loses depth because he is always too late going after the smaller piece who can make a big difference.
You realize he had NO shot at Bradford in the waiver process, right?
So he was unavailable prior?
Look, when I’m at work I don’t get raises and bonuses based on coulda, shoulda, wouldas.
I get them if I earn them based on results.
At some points, constant excuse making needs to translate into loss of job.
That’s real world.
That’s fair, but there’s a creative general manager mind that should be at work. Why do we need him if he can’t pull off deals to better the team? Anyone can build the roster in the offseason, it’s the band aid moves that are made mid-season that help get teams into the postseason every year.
Because Matt is a reasonable person. You can bash Omar for his ineffectiveness, and it is just, but the truth is he attempted. I am not being sympathetic, what I’m saying is, the truth should always be revealed and not just glossed over to focus on the negative (right NY media?)
I am not agreeing with Omar, its just that its good to report it as is.
How do you know what “is” is? Matt doesn’t know himself - all that there was were rumors, or “buzz from Shea” as Matt likes to call them. For all we know, Omar decided that he was content with what he had - exactly as he told us.
But more realistically, he probably did try, and failed. And what RodK is saying is that Matt is giving Omar credit for trying. That shouldn’t get him credit. A new reliever should.
Absolutely positively right on point. Where in the world do you get credit for trying? Not even in school! I wish I could go to my boss and say, “well, I tried to get that project done, but it just wasn’t happening.”
Omar is there to get things done. “Trying” doesn’t pay the bills….
Putting Ollie in the pen sounds like a horrible idea, he’s our second best starter right now. And I don’t think Maine would be very effective in the pen role. Why not just move Stokes there.
Yea, I’d say move someone that had just joined the team. Let the SP that have been here stay as is. We got Stokes, Vargas, Niese, put these guys in the ‘pen. We shouldn’t trust them yet to start every week.
agreed. Ollie has been very consistant this half of the year so lets not tinker with him. Maine needs to get his work in and build his confidance we need him down the stretch. Stokes to the bullpen wouldnt be a bad idea for a long man.
I agree with you 100% - if he is wild he is really wild… Do we really want him coming in in a pressure situation - I don’t think so. Niese should come up as a starter-the guy from Saturday should go in the bullpen and remove two of our unreliables.
If nothing else that will send a message to the remaining group
Yea, Kunz is in the bullpen. Why has he not been used? Can it really get much worse? Give the kid a chance until he proves he can’t handle it.
I like the idea of giving Niese a chance in the ‘pen. Give the kid a chance. And less exposure could be a big advantage. Maybe he doesn’t have the stuff of JOba, but you can’t argue that less exposure to teams didn’t help his dominance last year in the ‘pen.
He’s our closer now. Manuel said so himself. (until Wags is back, or Kunz is awful)
I’d let Ryan Church pitch. At least he’ll throw strikes.
The el foldo by the pen last year is actually a good thing for this year. Why? there is now way they can just cross fingers and hope it fixes itself again.
So, time for some radical moves.
Eddie K getting a bigger role? yup. adding some young starters into the mix (which I have been advocating all year)? Sure. any live arm pitching well in AA or AAA pen? Give them a shot.
Pelf in a short man role cold be very effective, if he needs to scale back innings and they can cover in the rotation. Maine scares me though , but maybe with his shoulder it makes sense.
I would love to see Neise up, and Smith and Muniz down. maybe stokes too? that other guy in AAA (lugo?) Aquilar (sp?) who was hot for a while and has started and relieved.
My moves: Smith down to AAA for a breather. Sanchez to the DL unless his FB comes back right now. Heilmann becomes the long man, since he can easily go 2-3 if needed, and should be effective in that role. 1 of Schoe or Feliciano needs to go, since they are both loogys.
Kunz gets a bigger role, Neise and 1 other guy also get put in the later innings (pelf? Stokes? someone new).
just having Feliciano and smith and muniz out of the pen and Heilmann in the long guy role will eliminate a lot of the problems . just have to hope the replacements don’t do worse!
I forgot about Pelfrey. That would probably be the best idea, he throws heat, which is something we’re missing in our bullpen and he’s right handed. Plus like you said it would keep him from exceeding his innings total by huge margin.
Who would you have start in Pelfrey’s place?
I think moving Pelf to the pen is as bad an idea as putting Ollie in there. Pelf is having a breakout year - why mess with that and move him out of the role he’s finally become comfortable with? Sure, he’d probably be effective in the pen, but I don’t see anyone who can take his place in the rotation and be as effective/reliable. What good is having him in the pen if the Mets are down 7-3 in the 8th?
I agree on Scho and Feliciano. Having the 2 of them in the pen is redundant - both lefty specialists who go 1 inning at most. That’s why I was sure that one of them would get dealt at the deadline. But Omar couldn’t pull the trigger. Feliciano needs to be sent down when Wags comes off the DL.
Stokes is still up here..why not give him another shot?
I don’t see a point to letting him start (unless necessary). It’s not like he performed so well that he deserves it. His line wasn’t pretty. If anything, I’d keep him for a long man role.
Ugh I keep writing out a reply and it keeps getting censored by the site. I have no idea what’s triggering it so I give up.
LOL Gina…
May be it just knows that you mean to say something dirty…
Put Stokes in the bullpen-call Niese up and remove two of our garbage relievers. Take your choice..
Let Kunz have the closer role-only the Mets would try to do something else- remember moving Reyes to second base!
The issue with Pelf is that he’s pushing his innings and that he could possibly be hitting a wall (I believe he’s had bad starts 2 of his last 3 after being on that ridiculous win streak, although I may be mistaken). He also is one of the few Mets pitchers that consistently throws real heat (95-96 MPH range) which makes him preferable for key situations, when we need strikeouts rather than ground/fly outs.
This was pretty much the gist of the reply I tried posting. Also that it would keep him from exceeding his innings total from last year by a huge number. increasing a young pitchers innings to much to fast is one of the quickest ways to blow out his arm. And like eric said Pelfrey throws heat, which no one in our bullpen, other than Wagner does.
Maine scares me too. The problem with him in the pen is that he doesn’t throw strikes consistently enough. Having him enter the game in a huge spot and go 3-0 to the first batter will be a problem.
I agree with you-also if he is having arm problems is he going to be able to warm up and stop every day… hate too put further stress on his arm…
right idea…at least Manuel is open to trying anything to change things up. Willie would not and did not change anything. He just as*umed everything would work out. And you know what happens when you as_sume…you get fired on the left coast at midnight after a win.
I think Smith needs to be sent down and one of the Mets left handers Scho or Feliciano because the last thing this team needs is specialists that throw from both sides in the bullpen. That limits what the Mets can do and put them in roles they shouldn’t be in.
We can only hope Niese, Kunz, Stokes can do a better job.
It would be a gamble, but yes, might as well give them a shot.
Hey Omar, I’m not impressed that “the buzz from shea during July was that [you were] working hard to change the dynamic of the pen” …
if I’m not mistaken, aren’t you allowed to upgrade the bullpen during the offseason too? Aren’t you allowed to make trades before the end of July???
I work hard at my job too, Omar. But “working hard” is not what you get judged by.
Omar, you suck worse than Heilman.
and who pretell should omar have traded to get a reliever?
Who were our trading chips….Kunz…Murphy..Evans…Pelfrey.
Omar did what we have all been screaming about and preserved the bullpen because he was not going to get equal value for what we would be giving up. Not to mention other teams had better packages. So im sure omar was on his blackberry 24/7 trying to get a deal done but he was not going to give up our future for a 1-2 years of a reliever. Yes you are right omars job is based off results. Last year we were 65-52 and 3 games up in first…Today we have a 3 game differance and 2 games out of first. We are not as dominant as 06 but we are still in the race and thats good enough for me at this point.
so i suppose it’s not omar’s fault that he doesn’t have chips to trade. I mean, he’s only the GM.
Or maybe it has something to do with the fact we trade 4 of our 5 top prospects, 5 prospects in all, to fill holes in the off-season? The only team that made big moves in the off-season and has made big moves now is the D-backs, and they have a stacked farm system from sucking for so long.
The majority of the chips omar did have to play with he used aquiring santana. From what i hear our farm was not the best pre omar so no omar did not have as many good prospects as other teams. Nobody would not have done what omar did to get santana. Just we all knew or SHOULD have known we would not have many pieces come the trade deadline. Dont know why you are so surprised he could not do anything.
And one of those big moves, the trade for Rauch was a head scratcher that reportedly made no sense to anyone else in the league because of how little they gave up.
So you are satisfied with secon-third place then because that is where the Mets will end up. There are only 44 games left-these types of games that they lost will come back and haunt them-you were around for last year yes?
I agree that Omar probably doesn’t have a lot to work with in the minors which begs the question- what has he and Bernazard been doing for the last 3-4 years? Please don’t tell me all our talent went in the Santana deal. What about Bell in SD and the Florida deals. Let’s just call it what it is - bad trades. That, and the minor leagues is what Omar should be judged by. As far as I am concerned he should be let go - it wasn’t Willie all the time it was the players…
How many, decent, relief pitchers got moved before the deadline. Rauch was the only one and that move was a head scratcher, there just weren’t many options that were going to be worth the cost.
If the relief market was so thin, why couldn’t we trade some of our expandable relievers and flip the return for a different guy? Scho and Feliciano are the same pitcher and are redundant in the pen. We have Claudio Vargas who I’m sure some teams would have interest in. I’m sure he had plenty of opportunity to move at least one of those guys. Omar just didn’t get creative. That big start to July clouded his judgment and gave a false impression of a reliable bullpen. BIG mistake to stand pat.
wasnt omar trying to shop show?
He was, and Scho was put on waivers after the deadline and no one claimed him.
what does that tell you about his value? Could it be the 3.5 mil he is owed-he is garbage..
Stokes and his 96mph gas, to the pen, makes too much sense.
Kunz, a closer, getting a chance to close some games makes too much sense.
Heilman should be the long man, since it’s more like starting, less pressure and the fact that we don’t have a long man.
Bring up Niese and either stick him in the pen or have him start while putting Maine in the pen. That could work either way.
whoa whoa whoa…easy there. I don’t want to make any changes that make sense now.
hahaha … yeah … that might not be wise.
Not to put down the immortal Stokes..but he was a HORRENDOUS reliever in Tampa Bay before the Mets picked him up off the scrap heap and made him a starter…now all of our guys stink on ice so I am willing to give him a shot but I am not expecting Miracles
better than what i am seeing that comes out every night!
I think of all the starters to use in a closing role, Maine makes the most sense because (1) he’s been injured, so limiting his innings now couldn’t hurt, and (2) he actually has similar numbers against righties and lefties. The biggest problem with this pen is that virtually all our relievers (Heilman, Smith, Feliciano, Show, Muniz) have pronounced splits. Only Sanchez doesn’t, and I think most people feel that his velocity has been too inconsistent to put him him in a closer’s role (and he’s failed miserably when given the shot). Maine’s BAA is .230 against both lefties and righties. Perez is too good to move to the pen. Pelfrey also has pronounced splits, and I wouldn’t mess with him in his first good year. Pedro is too much of a wild card. Johan obviously ain’t going to the pen. So Maine should be the guy if they go that route.
Alternatively, Niese would make sense for the same reasons — overall, lefties are hitting. 252 against him, righties are hittiing.
Either Maine or Neise would address the big problem of a lack of relievers who can pitch to both righties and lefties. This problem means that (1) we have to use more relievers every game, and (2) when those relievers are forced to face opposite-side hitters, they tend to fail.
good analysis.
A couple of issues we are overlooking in proposing moving starters to the pen concern the mental makeup of the player and more important the resiliency of his arm.
a few posters did hone in on the fact that the pen is almost entirely specialists now. no wonder they get lit up.
The real problem now is the specialists having to pitch long innings. I believe the concept for this pen was Wagner to close, and AH and DS serving as the set up men (pitch to anyone).
if that was working out, then smith/schoe/pedro F would be serving as their 1-2 batter situational role in th emiddle innings (when the starter had to come out in say the 6th). Used this way, they should be fine.
and of course, there should be some kind of long man for those real early exits and blow outs (say a Vargas).
So, the trick is finding guys that can replace the back end 3 (or 2 when Wags comes back). Heck, at this point, Neise, Kunz and Stokes don’t look like bad options. Even Collazo, and I have no idea what he throws!
sometimes fresh arms just for the sake of change can work. or just throw everything on the wall, and see what sticks.
Man, if Kunz has a good week playing closer, it gives you the set up guy you are missing when BW comes back.
“It’s easy for us to say Omar should have done something”
….Yes, it is easy, because it is TRUE.
He’s had 2 years to cure this disease, and he hasn’t.
Time for a new doctor, you know what I’m sayin
It’s official.
The Mets bullpen blowing late-inning leads is as sure to happen as the sun rising, daily, in the east. This time, just as what happened in Houston to Johan Santana, happens to Pedro Martinez— a four-run lead against a second-division team, is wasted.
But were any of you really surprised?
This is the exact same cast which starred last September in the rotten, off-Broadway production, The Collapse. Now the chorus line of inept relievers, Joe Smith, Aaron Heilman, Pedro Feliciano and Scott Schoeneweis is back for a return engagement—not by popular demand, but by the ineffectual approach of a general manager (more on him later)—only this time, one month early.
I can see the tag-line on the marquis now: No Lead is Safe. With Us, it Goes to Waste.
All it took was two batters for Joe Smith to characteristically wilt and Pedro Feliciano a mere few minutes to add lighter fluid to the fire Smith started.
Then Aaron Heilman, who’s showing he’s about as qualified to close baseball games as the current Georgian Army commander is to halt aggressive Russian forces does what he’s done most of the year—dig a hole for himself with blinding speed, from which he can’t escape. Scott Schoeneweis, not exactly closer material, wasn’t much better.
And this latest meltdown comes against a team which raised the white flag two weeks ago and traded away its best two hitters.
At whose feet am I laying the blame on, besides the inept members of the bullpen?
Not Jerry Manuel’s, whose only other options are the less-than-inspiring Carlos Muniz and raw rookies, Eddie Kunz and Ruddy Lugo.
How about Omar Minaya, who has had since the end of the 2006 season to address this shortcoming, which is as an obvious sight to everyone in baseball as a third eye, arm or leg would be on a human being?
Starting in NLCS Game 2, there were already signs of trouble.
Performance Enhanced Guillermo Mota couldn’t shut down the Cardinals. After the season, after he admits to using ‘roids, what does Omar do?
Rewards him with a two-year contract, of course.
In fateful NLCS Game 7, Heilman—in what turns out to be a precursor—gives up a game-winning two-run homer to Yadier Molina.
What does Omar do?
Hangs on to him when he could’ve been dealt at his maximum trade value.
Meanwhile, Omar lets Chad Bradford, one of the Mets most effective relievers in 2006, walk away as a free agent. Ditto for longman Darren Oliver.
What does Omar do to replace them?
Sign Schoeneweis to a deal so long and ludicrous at three years and nearly $11 million, even Schoeneweis was laughing all the way to the bank, and hastily promote Smith, who had all of what, three years of college ball under his belt?
And let’s not forget, Minaya also signed the perpetually mediocre Jorge Sosa (who now is bouncing around with his third Major League team this year) and traded away a legitimate fifth starter in Brian Bannister for a young reliever now sidelined while trying to recover from Tommy John surgery.
The proverbial writing on the wall last year about the horrid bullpen before The Collapse was sprayed in neon paint and when the trade deadline came around, what move did Omar make to address the problem?
None.
And what moves did Omar make in the off-season to make sure The Collapse wouldn’t have a repeat performance?
Sign free agent Matt Wise, who was hurt and done for the year within the season’s first week and ink a stable of stiffs that have made no meaningful contribution at all.
What moves did Omar make at last month’s trading deadline to address the weakness?
Promote an untested rookie.
In case anyone’s keeping track of such things (seems like Omar isn’t), the Mets bullpen’s ERA is the second-worst in all of Major League Baseball, at about 7 runs per nine innings, save Atlanta’s. That means that most any other reliever in any other relief corps is better than who we currently have, meaning some of them could’ve been had.
In case anyone else is keeping track of such things (and again, it seems as if Omar isn’t), the Mets lead MLB in averaging using nearly four pitchers a game.
There are now only—count ‘em—four off-days the rest of the season.
The question now becomes how many more will the bullpen blow before blowing the Mets clear out of contention.
And it seems like Minaya—who’s acting like a building superintendent asleep at the switch while leaky faucets, rat and roach infestation and plumbing woes mount for two years—has the perfect solution:
Do nothing.
Would be nice if you didn’t plagarize…
I stopped reading at: it’s official…….
to Omar’s defense, he didn’t want to give Bradford a 3-year deal. I mean, how could he justify signing Bradford to 3 years when he had to give that three years to Schowenweiss… plus, why did we need Bradford anymore when we had Ambiorix Burgos coming on from the right side … Omar has a plan you see … umm…I mean… uh… wow, I don’t know how anyone defends this clown.
tl;dr
can’t really argue with anything you said.
Omar feels like he wants to be the owner from the movie major league. DO everything he can to make this team tank.
“Scott Eyre is hardly exciting, as he was recently traded to the Phillies, at least he’s some one different…”
Wow Matty I expect better of you. So, just make a trade because “you get someone different”. Bringing someone up serves the same purpose and you don’t lose anyone you may regret in the future.
he also is really bad. He might make Schoe look like Papalbon.
I am starting to sense a trend among the 1 million GMs here that Niese, Kunz, and Stokes to the back end of the pen, with Heilmann to the long man role, is worth a try.
I agree. The big difference with those 3 is they should all be able to pitch to L and R handed batters, since it is a closer and 2 SPs!
push Smith and Feliciano to the minors to get straightened out, and/or Sanchez to the DL if he is still missing his velocity.
If BW comes back effective next week, maybe this pen can keep the team afloat until October:
Wags - close
Neise/Stokes/Kunz - set up/late innings guys.
Schoe - loogy/blow out guy
Heilmann - long man (2/3 innings at a pop)
7th man is Sanchez if healthy and his FB comes back (add him to the set up/late guys), otherwise some other live arm like Collazo maybe?
Hey, might not be fantastic, but at least it is different, and you won’t see AH trotting in with the game on the line!
Honestly, if for nothing else, why not give the young guys a shot? We already know the pen is in terrible shape, how much worse could it be to bring up some rooks and see what they can do? It seems to have been a good idea with Murphy, Evans, and even A. Reyes.
Don’t forget about Parnell- he just pitched 6 innings allowing 2 runs 2 walks and 5 Ks in his AAA debut. Plus he throws hard.
His spilts with runners on base are ugly though so Jerry would have to use him carefully.
The fact of the matter is Omar has badly mismanaged the pen since 06. And his handpicked manager WIllie being unable to control his team also doomed him (Sanchez out in a cab at 3AM looking for “latin food” - either drogas or prostitutas)
Omar brought up new guys…lets f’in use them and see what happens, yesterday’s loss fall directly to Jerry if you ask me.
We should move Maine- he throws strikes and he has been one of the biggest cuprits for being pulled eary due to his high pitch counts, plus limiting the innings and pitches on his arm might help his shoulder
I would have Kounz/Maine work in the setup role for innings 7 and 8, Wagner close.
Stokes as the long man
Muniz should just go away- he is the worst long man in baseball, he cant even go 1+ innings
Then have Niese in the rotation. I dont like Ollie in the bullpen a bit to eratic plus he is capable of going 7 or 8 innings which is a vital part to staying out of this pen.
Maine throws strikes? He has 57 walks in only 124 innings pitched.
Moving Maine weakens an the rotation too much. With Pedro still being a question mark, we need Maine as an anchor in the rotation. Can’t rob from Peter to pay Omar… I mean Paul.
Ok…here’s an off the wall idea…Lets put Heilman into the rotation, getting him the rest he so much needs, and move Maine to the BP for the 8th. Kills two birds with one stone
heilman cant get 2 guys oiut, what makes us think he can get 15 or 18 outs… just saying.. its an idea, i just dont think heilman rotation is the answer.. the other day he was on fumes when he went into his 3rd inning of work… at this point easier to transition into a bullpen role then a starting role
next season they can consider moving aaron into the rotation if they so desire
Lets see them move him into the TX rotation.
I’d love nothing more than to see him get shelled and wilt in the hot TX sun. He’ll be begging to go back to the pen.
Does anyone know Sheffield’s contract situation? I read an article that he is unhappy in Detroit and I was wondering if we have interest as fans? I think he might be to old and declining but is he better then what we got? of course if his contract is long term then the Mets won’t want to take that on….
Let’s concentrate on what we need…PITCHING
I understand. But if there is not pitching to be had then how about getting someone that can help the Mets score after the 2nd inning? of course Sheffield’s numbers are not good so maybe I should just forget that idea…
he can’t play the field anymore (or thrwo) so he has no chance of coming to the NL.
I’ll tell ya, John Maine and that exploding fastball in the 8th and 9th is not a bad option. On most of Maine’s starts, the opponent can barely hit that fastball for the first 3 innings. Plus, Maine get go b**ls out pitching only one inning. Remember how hard Brad Penny was pitching in the first two inning of the 07 all-star game because he knew he was only pitching two innings? Same senario with Maine.
The difference is, Penny was pumping the strike zone. Maine goes 3-0 to every hitter and then is forced to groove fastballs and the hitter fouls off 9 pitches before walking.
True, 100 pitches by the 5th inning everytime.
Yep, and not only the pitch count, but the inability to throw consistent strikes. I cringe at the thought of him coming into a game in a crucial spot having to throw strikes.
FIELD OF EMPTIES
another overflow crowd at Shea yesterday - 53,000 announced. Truly, Baseball can be said to be alive and well, at least in Flushing. Amen.
I well remember what actual crowds of 50-some odd thousand look like. Actually, it is an unforgettable sight. At most this season, when all sections had people, like this weekend, they have not had more than 45,000. The game I attended last Tuesday -25 – 30,000 - Official attendance, 52.000.
When will this be debunked?
(People are puzzled why they downsized the capacity of Citifield relative to Shea. (“Create a more intimate experience” yada yada, “for the fans”)—just, after the novelty dies away, fewer empties, less obvious fraud. Play Ball? Nah, let’s play Madden ’09)
They sold 53000 seats…who cares who’s there…
18 pitchers in the NL with more than 55 games.
4 of them are Mets-Heilman, Feliciano, Smith, Schowenweis).
Washington 2 or 3 (Rauch went from Wash to Arizona)
Atlanta has 2.
FLA and PHI 1.
Too many multiple pitching changes in the 6th/7th/8th and now 9th innings will kill your bullpen.
too true about using 3 or 4 guys per inning.
also a direct result of having nothing but specialists for the most part.
I think it might help a lot if these guys stop fearing the homerun and throw strikes.
I’d like to see each reliever cruise his first pitch right down the middle for a few days.
I think we all agree that Omar is to blame here.
Hmm….btw, how good would Heath Bell and Matt Lindstrom look coming in to close out games that Scott Kazmir started?
It is simple. If we do not win the division, OMAR MUST BE FIRED.
PERIOD. End of story
There are so many things wrong with your statement that they could never have been reality.
Let’s keep Kazmir. Ok, then let’s not have beltran, pedro, delgado, and not have fired the front office of teams that were 20 games under .500 each year, etc etc etc. None of that happens.
Heath Bell…I have news for you. Heath Bell is Aaron Heilman in New York. 2005 era was 5.59 and 2006 era was 5.11. He looked great in mop up duty but put him in a big spot and Derek Lee takes him depp 500 feet every time. Heath Bell was NOT GOOD in New York!! Why keep him.
Lindstrom I can’t argue. Stupid trade.
Yeah there didn’t really seem to be any purpose to that series of pitcher trades in 06. Trade two power bullpen arms for mediocre starting prospects, then trade a mediocre starting prospect for a power bullpen arm?
All depending on Maine’s Helath, With Pelf nearing max innings, put him in the 8th inning when wags comes back and put neise in the rotation.
neise is going to be running into his innings limit soon too most likely. I doubt he is a good option to join the rotation down the stretch.
now sending guys like Neise and Parnell to the pen to save some innings might work!
I agree with this, and I don’t see how it could hurt.
Parnell would work because he is a power righty who can strike people out. Niese is a lefty and there wouldn’t really be a spot for him unless one of Schoe or Pedro2 are bumped out of the specialist role.
Ugh. I’ve asked before but can we please get a list of words that trigger the site censors? It seems like there’s no rhyme or reason to it.
Interesting fact about the blown saves stats in the beginning of this post is that Franklin and Izzy pitch for the same team! Amazing that both us and the Cards are still in the hunt for the playoffs with stats like that.
I’m tired of that nonsensical excuse about Heath Bell. Gary Cohen used the same excuse earlier this week about how he wasn’t good in NY.
Heath Bell is NOT Aaron Heilman.
The difference between Heath Bell and Aaron Heilman is that Heath Bell was never given a real chance because Randolph and Peterson didn’t like him (because he was fat and appeared out of shape).
Heilman has been given every oppotrunity and keeps spitting the bit.
Forget Kazmir - if Omar hadn’t traded Heath Bell and Matt Lindstrom, we would have won the division last year and would be leading the division by 10 games this year.
Omar needs to be held accountable. We are destined to be a perennial disappointment with Omar as our GM because he is not a good evaluator of talent and because he makes idiotic trades.
I’m not talking about Burgos for Bannister because that was fine - they both are worthless.
I’m not talking about Kazmir because he didn’t make that trade.
Bell and Ring for Adkins and Johnson show an incredible lack of understanding of the value of a hard-throwing young reliver (to get a 4th outfielder) and
Lindstrom and Owens for Vargas and Bostick is the STUPIDEST TRADE IN YEARS. What, on earth, was the reasoning for that one?
I’ve supported Omar since the beginning and give him credit where credit is due but it is time to hold him accountable for this mess.
If we don’t win the division, OMAR MUST BE FIRED.
What is it that they say about hindsight?
The trade of Lindstrom and Owens is a non-issue. Those two guys were quickly getting to the point where they weren’t even prospects anymore. Burgos had a live arm that could have been dominating if he had been able to get his head on straight. It was a gamble. Mets lost. It happens. If he never took gamble you’d get on him for that.
Heath Bell has pitched a Hell of a lot better since he left the Mets than he did when he was with them. He was a late bloomer. What are you going to do? Again, it was a situation where there was no reason believe that the guys you were giving up were going to perform as they have.
If you are going to get on Omar, it should be for his lack of willingness to make trades that would land proven ML performers IMO.
None of the trades that you reference is even remotely close to the Kazmir mess.
Disagree about Bell. He was given a chance and performed poorly. But bottom line is that he didn’t get along with Peterson, so what was Omar/Willie to do? You don’t fire a pitching coach because one prospect doesn’t get along with him.
Also disagree about Bannister. He’s going through a rough patch but I think he’s capable of straightening himself out. Regardless, he could have helped the pen/rotation last year so that trade was a bust.
But I agree with you that Lindstrom should have been given a shot and that Omar makes crappy baseball decisions. He’s a poor evaluator of talent. Or makes moves for the wrong reasons.
I can only hope the Wilpons aren’t so stupid that they can’t see Omar’s many warts.
You realize we’re talking about owners who hired Steve Phillips and Jim Duquette. If they fire Omar Tony B will probably be our next gm.
I said it yesterday, and I’m going to say it again here.
Pedro Martinez would fit very nicely as a setup man in our Bullpen.
I don’t want to hear about how long it takes him to get loose. He is a professional. He would make adjustments. He’s pitched as a reliever before in his career, and long time starters like John Smoltz have been able to make the change seamlessly.
Pedro in the bullpen could be a solution for the Mets IMO.
Omar (or whoever is GM) better start spending smart money on the bullpen this offseason. No more crap like Mota and Show.
Why didn’t Omar go after Mahay or someone similar to him? Better to overpay for a middle reliever than to completely throw money down the drain on AARP players like Alou and El Duque who contribute zilch the entire season.
And Omar made Posada his main offseason target last winter? Geesh.
The irony is that he DID spend a lot of money — on Schoeneweis and Mota.
I am with you on Mahay. As soon as I heard he was available I wanted him snapped up. Oh well.
Desperate times, desperate measures. The Phils had the rocks to move a starter to the ‘pen. Let’s put Maine or Pelf (coming up on his innings limit) down there and audition Niese for the starting spot. Oh, and put some air in your tires. That’s the Toomany Plan!
I said “smart money.” Show and Mota are dumb money.
I was also advocating Mahay. I don’t understand Omar’s penchant for signing pitchers with bad (or suspect, ie steroids) numbers when there are pitchers to be had with good numbers — ie, Bradford and Mahay.
And then he wastes his money on Alou and El Duque and wanted to throw money at Posada this offseason? That’s incompetence.
Oh, and put some air in your tires. That’s the Toomany Plan!
Huh? Don’t understand those comments.
There was a McCain/ Obama flap about a recommendation to improve mileage by making sure tires were fully inflated — nice idea, nowhere near a long-term solution to a complex problem. Hence, the analogy. Both sides ended up looking bad. I’ll leave it there, lest the Pavlovian political responses pile up.
OK, gotcha. :smile:
If you’re saying using a starter is a “put more air in your tires” solution, then that’s OK with me. It’s not meant to be long-term. Why can’t they mix things up and do things out of the box? Omar was supposed to be an out-of-the-box thinker but I haven’t seen much of that, especially when it comes to utilizing the farm system.
They need to do something instead of just accepting the losing from the bullpen.
Heilman in 2005 and 2006 should have been a temporary “put more air in your tires” solution instead of a permanent one, but they want to keep using him in a role he’s not suited for.
a lot of really good ideas…this is one of the better posts i have seen in a while…
here is a little logic to add to it…
1.adding hard throwers to our soft-tossing pen, will make both more effective.
2.anyone that gets moved to the DL needs a reason to go, and we need to be able to survive without them for atleast 2 wks
3.whatever we get out of a 5 starter for the rest of the year is fine…the BP is the #1 priority
4.adding Niese for anything other then need or a sept callup will sacrifice 1 yr of his contract and create an 40man issue. also, he would become the 3rd left in the BP with show and feliciiano…are we going to cut one?
5.its too late to send heilman to the rotation bc he hasnt been stretched out, which would take atleast 2 wks
with that….till wags returns:
cl-KUNZ
8th-MAINE
6/7-heilman, STOKES, feliciano
loogy-show roogy-smith
SP-santana, ollie, pelf, pedro, collazo/figgy/lugo-use niese in september
send muniz down
DL sanchez, hoepfully to get his stuff back for the stretch run
we can also hope someone tries to trade for show, heilman, sanchez, feliciano if we put them on waivers. losing a lefty allows us to add niese to the BP
btw…if sheff is unhappy, and may clear waivers…we should be looking at that
Why should they look at a malcontent over-the-hill DH who causes problems almost everywhere he goes when our main need is bullpen help? Do they really need a distraction like him?
umm…yes
prob 1-BP-no help available
prob 2-situational hitting….the guy is a monster and can provide a very solid bat in the OF, platoon at 1, and off the bench
if he costs us a guy like show or feliciano, you wouldnt?
get real…HOF is HOF…you take them when you can get them
Sheff is a prick…but NY has cheered him before…he is EXACTLY what this offense needs
just bc the bullpen sucks doesnt mean you ignore all other needs.
besides…if you remove a lefty from the BP…then you can move niese up…2 problems solved
Not really. The team needs a bullpen and someone who can play defense in the OF.
Maybe you aren’t paying attention but Sheff can no longer hit or field. But he’s still a malcontent who causes problems.