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Desperate times call for desperate measures. With the Mets bullpen currently a disaster, manager Jerry Manuel acknowledged,
“I’ve got to use all the options that I have here… Everything from here on out is a possibility.”
If Manuel is serious about “everything”, I have a wacky idea: reverse the game.
In other words, start the relievers at the beginning of the game, and have your “starter” finish.
For example, tonight’s starter is Johan Santana. He’s counted on to throw at least six innings. So, instead of throwing the opening pitch, you hold him out until, say, the bottom of the fourth.
Meantime, Aaron Heilman starts the game and pitches the first inning. That’s right — Aaron Heilman. He always wanted to be a starter anyway, so here’s his big chance. He hasn’t shown the chutzpah necessary for the pressure of the late innings, so put him into the most tension-free situation — the first frame. When the second inning starts, split it between Pedro Feliciano and Joe Smith, depending on the batters due up. In the third, Eddie Kunz comes in. When the fourth inning rolls around, hand the ball to Johan and tell him, “it’s your ballgame from here.” Johan can then pitch his masterpiece, finish what he starts, and get the W (for a change).
The trick, of course, is to get through the first three innings without allowing too many runs — ideally, none at all. Essentially, that’s the same role the bullpen is handed at the end of the game — the only difference is, there’s less pressure at the beginning of the game.
Crazy? Of course. But then, 25 years ago, Tony LaRussa had this radical idea of using one guy for the ninth inning every game. And yes, there are flaws in the plan. For one, the idea looks really dumb if the other team scores six runs in the first three frames. The possibility of extra innings presents a problem as well.
But hey, it’s all about being creative — thinking “out of the box” as middle managers like to say. Continuing to do the same thing every day, and expecting different results, is just as crazy — if not crazier.
Next ideas on the agenda: moving Carlos Delgado to shortstop, coaxing Doug Flynn out of retirement, and batting Brian Schneider in the leadoff spot!
hey, sorry guys this is really off topic……but i have heard that Brett Favre is in madden 09 and i have heard he is not. people have said that you will have to go to my madden and release him from the nfl greats list , then sign him to the jets from free agency…..i would like to know if anyone knows 100 percent if hes in the game…..and i am planning tog et the game for ps2…yea i know im not updated….but it would be really cool if someone could get back to this. again sorry for the random comment
Why don’t you go to Gamefaq’s and post this? This has absolutely nothing to do with the Mets!! Very weird.
yea i know sorry….but i went to so many sites…..and there are different answers……anyway getting back to the mets then….our bullpen just sucks…what else do we have to say
he is not on an active roster at the time you buy it. he is playable under the all-time greats team.
But, if you have online, they have a download-able up-to-date roster available now. And then Brett is a Jet.
You can also print out a cover that shows Brett in a Jets uni
Well I’ll be the first of many to say that this is way too ridiculous to be a realistic option.
I’m on my way out to get food, so I don’t have time to explain why. Can someone else handle it?
I’ll give it a whirl… In a perfect scenario, its a great idea. Everyone pitches a perfect inning, hands it over to the starter, and we never lose again.
In reality, its not the brightest of ideas. Lets not forget this is the same team that temporarily thrived when the bullpen was given specific roles. In fact, a lot of the bullpen’s struggles as of late have come when those roles have been scrambled to due Wagner’s absence (not to say it has been a completely effective bullpen since the AS break).
Also, considering that our starters tend to throw a lot of pitches early, what if we use three or four pitchers to get to the starter, and he can only give you three or four innings. Maybe its an extra inning game, and you’ve already blown through half your bullpen by the sixth inning…. What do you do then? Warm up David Wright in the pen? Where’s Brooks Kieschnick when you need him?
Not to mention that this would also probably remove the option of pinch hitting for the pitch in late, close games.
And, if these guys stink, which clearly they do, why would you want to give other teams an opportunity to jump out on top of you. Its not like the Mets have been a fantastic come-from-behind team all year long.
The bottom line – there’s a reason why the starter starts the game, and the relievers come in later. Its been done this way for 150 years, and there’s probably more reasons than i’ve listed.
You might as well have suggested that the Mets try and pry Nolan Ryan out of retirement to pitch the ninth.
The only time I would consider this is in a Game 7 type scenario where I’d pitch Pedro for 4 innings and then put Santana in for the 5th and on.
I don’t know whats dumber…the relievers up first in the game idea or the idiot who asks a Madden question on a Mets blog. Both are dumb and neither should have been able to waste my time, yet both did.
wow, um this is metsblog not maddenblog. anyway im pretty sure tony larussa tried this with the A’s and it didnt work out that well. I have this whacky idea let me know what you guys think. the starter throws AT LEAST 7 innings against pitiful lineups, and the offense actually scores against AAAA pitchers.
Hip, hip, hooray!
I don’t mean to be mean, but on the heels of rambling posts in the past week about Steven Register and about the pros and cons of trading prospects, Janish has outdone himself with this one.
I wouldn’t even know where to start, other than that there is a line between radical thinking and what would appear to be a complete lack of understanding of the sport you are covering. We’ll leave it at that…I don’t think I need to enumerate the reasons why this is a ridiculous suggestion.
I am as frustrated by this pen as anyone, but this does not call for a reinvention of the games. It has been clear all year that the Mets bullpen is made up, with hte exception of Sanchez and Wagner, of chronic nibblers. How often are 0-2 counts quickly turned into 3-2 counts? These relievers are all afraid of contact – plain and simple. Either change their mindset, or bring in new faces.
Last I checked, Kunz hadn’t blown a save all year for the Mets. Give him a shot. The Niese idea is a good one also…sure worked for Joba Chamberlain and Adam Wainwright, to name two.
The solutions are there, and they certainly don’t involve essentially ruining your 5 best pitchers.
I think the pen is full of nibblers and afraid of contact because I swear they have thrown some pitches that haven’t landed yet. They suck!
its a joke…right joe?
Dude, that sounds crazy. but at this point, they should be willing to try anything, but Barry Bonds has to be out of the question.
i like the creativity of the idea…
is this a joke or is this guy serious?
Even if this is toungue in cheek, which seemingly it is..It is still one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard
this the dumbest story ever on metsblog
I’d love to see this tried at least once. Get the heartache of the last 2-3 innings out of the way first.
Because of this post, I feel like this blog has lost some credibility.
Eh…i know what you’re saying, but i wouldnt say the BLOG has, just the BLOGGER.
Janish had little in the 1st place. Not to be mean spirited, but his posts are pointless and seem to ramble. And then this.
How about the idea throwing out Robinson Cancel top pitch when we’re in the 11th inning and have no relievers left? That’s outside the box.
I’m honestly more entertained listening to seemingly crazy yet interesting ideas than hearing the same people whine and complain about problems they have no control over.
iawtc.
I actually don’t think the idea if horrible, a little out there and unrealistic but not horrible.
other than a desperation scenario where you have to win in a Game 7 and all hands are on deck, it’s pretty bad.
This is certainly a creative idea…doesn’t make it good
It reeks of desperation thinking
We’re going to completely reinvent the game because Aaron Heilman and Scott Schoeneweis suck?
Those 2 are probably our best 2 relievers. Schoeneweis has done his job. Heilman hasn’t, but is still our best reliever dating back to 06. Smith definitely stinks, Duaner is horrible, and Feliciano is too hot and cold, but Show has been fine and Aaron doesnt stink. Our bullpen would be completely screwed without Heilman. He may be stinking it up right now, but atleast he takes the ball every day, and is never hurt. He will be okay. Its Duaner we need to worry about imo.
Schoe was just hideous yesterday. I was really focusing on Joe’s little parody/idiocy subverting 100 years of baseball wisdom based on the pile of dung left by two of our pitchers . . . but then Smith & Co. helped, too, didn’t they?
yea, but Schoe was in there against a righty…we ALL know how that ends up
its upsetting that brainless ideas like this get broadcast to an audience of tens of thousands. i guess some folks just stumble luckily into positions of influence in the media. look at chris russo.
i guess it’s supposed to be a joke, but i come here for Mets news and the occasionally guiseppe franco tidbit, not half witted hair brained “what-ifs”.
i guess it’s jealousy, but how come this dude gets paid to write pointless drivel about the mets and all of us don’t? is there not a poster on this website that couldn’t come up with a more relevant hypothetical.
if matt isn’t doing quality control on this website’s posts, he really has got to start. if today was my first day reading the page i’d probably never come back again.
A little unnecesarry shot at Mad Dog huh? I agree with you about this post, it is absurd, but Mad Dog is good at what he does, so is Francesa. Mike knows more about baseball, and Dog loves to kick us when we are down, but he does a good job and is a pretty good sports historian. He has a lot of stories and does good interviews, asking the tough questions, yes him and Mike can be annoying, especially when the Mets are losing and they like to rub it in, but ehy do a very good job and have one of the better radio sports shows. I also agree that the majority of the people who write for Matt here don;’t have any more knowledge of baseball then most of us die hard fans. In a lot of cases I think we are better educated on how the game works. As for the actual Mets, I am a little annoyed but I am not nervous. Atleast this will make you guys respect Wagner and what he does a lot more. Wright and Beltran are starting to finally heatup, and yes, before somebody comes at me, I realize David is stacking up the RBI’s and is hitting homeruns. But this has been his worst full season as a pro, trying to pull everything and having a lot of bad AB’s. Still a great season, but not a great David Wright season. Beltran is starting to heatup, which I always said he will. Murph and Evans have given us a nice spark also. Reyes finally has sliumped for about a week, but he has been fantastic all year. I think we are okay. We have a much better rotation then Philly, which I think will make the difference in the end.
The first post was the perfect post for this waste of time.
haha..yea it was appropriate for this theme.
How about Heilman just becomes a starter? He has the stuff, good 2 and 4 seamer and changeup, atleast an average slider. We need a starter for next year, number 4 starters are currently going for like 12 million per season, so I say give Aaron the ball and the 4/5 spot next year. He never gets hurt, and will have less pressure starting a game where one mistake will not kill him. I think it makes too much sense. Better Aaron starting then giving out 3/35 for the next Carlos Silva. I also am intrigued by the idea of John Maine closing games, just for now.
I’m with ya on this one.
Because as you said it makes too much sense and they might be afraid that if they do it and he’s successful, then it will prove they have been wrong about him for the last 2-3 years.
What gets me is they won’t even try it. What is there to lose? Nothing. If it doesn’t work, just release him or trade him or put him back in the pen. Nothing lost. But as it is now 1) he is not very effective in the pen and 2) they will need starters next year.
The time to make the switch is after the season ends. You tell Aaron he’s going to be given a chance to start (say, 7–10 starts) and if it doesn’t work he will be put back in the pen.
it doesnt matter the order, if the bullpen $UCKS in late innings, they will still $uck at the begining, when a bullpen is bad it is bad not matter when they pitch. and if this group of pitchers feel pressure in late innings, they shouldnt be relievers at the major league level. this is a stupid post
Wasn’t there an article about this in HardBall times?
This idea is ridiculous. So let the starter pitch starting the 4th then let him hit in clutch situations in late innings? We dont need to reinvent the game. Our pen is going through an awful slump right now. We just need some new blood in there and hopefully be able to throw the relievers we currently have out there into situations where they can succeed (this does not apply to Heilman who should no longer enter any game with less than a 9 run lead)
Thank you. That was my first thought. Tie game in the 7th with the bases loaded and Ollie coming to the plate. Well he’s now givin us 3 good innings and a PH means going ot the pen anyway. What a moronic idea. If they can hand a 3 run lead over to Johan to start the 4th then maybe it would work. But Johan can’t pitch every day and that 3 run lead ain’t happening. I have a really good idea. Why don’t we bring up the bullpen from a different farm team each day to confuse the other team. They won’t have scouting reports. Then we can mix and match with Savannah’s closer following Bingo’s 8th inning guy. Dumb! So dumb!
I agree with using Kunz to close and maybe bringing up Niese and someone else. That should be the first option… and I think it will be the one they go with..
That being said, I don’t think “reversing the game” is such a terrible idea, provided it only was done for a week or two (or until Wagner comes back Monday). Its no secret that these guys need a break mentally and removing that late game pressure situation from their roles, even for a week, may go a long way. No way could this be a long term solution, but I don’t think Janish meant for it to be. Just to right the ship. It would probably keep the starters under 100 pitches which has also been a concern.. Is it ideal? No… But who has any confidence left in these guys?
Of course you gotta go with Kunz for now
Wow…I realize I made the first “negative” post in this thread about Joe’s idea, but I tried to keep it nice. I feel bad for Joe. Maybe I shouldn’t…meh.
How about this NEVER USE HEILMAN IN THE 8th or 9th Inning.
You can use him in the 7th and he should be fine.
go with KUNZ and SANCHEZ to finish the game. At least Sanchez has the mindset to close. His stuff may not be up to par, but i feel more comfortable with him in the 9th than these other losers.
Give me Heilman everyday over Duaner. Heilman has been good for us for 4 years, and now we are ready to throw him out over a bad half season. Ridiculous. Sanchez walks everybody because he knows his stuff cant beat hitters. How is that a good closer mentality? Heilman takes the ball every single day every year, takes so much abuse from the crowd that he does not deserve, and he doesnt ever get hurt like Duaner. You guys are such frontrunners it makes me sick. You want Beltran gone, you want Heilman gone, you want Reyes gone, then a week later you all go out and buy their jerseys and act as if you have loved them the whole time. Fickle fickle.
Joe gets an A for effort, creativity and intent.
But for practicality, I give his idea a C. You need to save the pen for the possibility of extra inning games and for relief of the starter, even if he is coming into the games later.
But I think his point is, the Mets need to start doing things different. They are always so wed in their ways — like last year when we kept seeing Mota and Show game after game even though it was costing the Mets dearly.
Get out of the inertia.
The above post was not meant as a reply to Straw, but as an overall comment to Joe’s idea.
But now that I am here, I have to agree with max that Sanchez has been as bad as Heilman if not worse. He’s come into games and couldn’t get anyone out. Frankly, they’ve all sucked bad. So maybe try out Kunz just because he hasn’t failed yet.
I also think it just might work, but handling extra inning games would be more taxing in that situation.
This just reminded me of a strange event that keeps occuring when I play MLB Power Pros. Every once in awhile I see the ending box score and for some reason the CP seems to use ONLY relievers. I’ve had Sanchez start a game for 2.2 innings followed by Scho for 1.2 then maybe Smith and Burgos with Wagner closing. I guess they don’t run on a 5 man rotation?
joe janish strikes again.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
OPINION: Joe Janish has photos of Cerrone in a compromising position.
I’d rather read another column wailing about Val Pasucci than this crap.
I lol’d.
How about we start simple: let Kunz close.
ummm
can anyone give me the last 2 minutes of my life back? that article (yes I know it was a joke) but come on…when I see a new post on Metsblog I think “oooh new information” …..
this …was not..
Wow people here are acting like Joe just crucified a baby or something. Easy people. No reason to act appalled. Stop being idiots.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
lol ikr
OH NO I READ A BLOG POST AND IT WASN’T THE SOLUTION TO ALL MY PROBLEMS!!!
Why are my posts disappearing??? I hate that.
Janish bit this idea off of someone on the FAN yesterday. I find that very unprofessional that he pretends to have come up with this wacky idea on his own, when in fact he heard it on our favorite NY sports radio station.
oh thats the cherry on top of the sundae isn’t’ it?
Janish, if you’re going to steal someone’s material, pick something funnier to rip off. WFAN? Seriously?
Joe “Carlos Mencia” Janish
i loled
I have the best idea yet, if you actually have a reliever getting outs on a particular day, stick with him until he literally can not pitch anymore! Sanchez hit a batter but threw 20 pitches yesterday in 1.1 innings. I know his spot came up in the bottom of the 8th, but he was clearly throwing well enough to finish the game. Since you cant trust anyone on any particular day, stick with what works if anything!
Along these lines, I always wondered what it would be like to have a minimal relief corp, and had carried 10 starting pitchers.
one pitcher would start the game, and the other would finish. next time around the rotation the roles would flip. radical? yes. silly? sure. could it work? maybe…. I just like to think about these things.
just to clarify, the SPs would have a set number of innings. the starter would pitch the first 5, and the “closer” would pitch the remaining 4.
obviously the numbers could be adjusted if the starter was grooving, or the game was tied and the possibility of extra innings was there.
the minimal relief corp would be there for extra inning work, or if one or both pitchers struggled in the game.
The Schmoozer said it best yesterday. He said that pitching is the only job where you remove the most capable person from the position who can actually get the job done and substitute him with someone else who is less capable and can’t.
I think we need to consider moving Maine to the bullpen. Yes, it weakens our rotation, but everyone agrees we gotta do something.
robbing peter to pay paul.
yes it is. but paul needs to get paid. stat.
haha touche
I think there is, or there was, a minor league team experimenting with two starters a game. I believe it was in the Reds’ system.
You have an 8 man rotation. Every day, two men start. One starts the 1st, one starts the 5th. They go 4 innings, less if you have to bring in relievers. You also have a closer.
Interesting idea, no?
haha check above, i posted an idea just like that. didnt kno it was already in practise!
Someone actually does this? Wow. I actually had this idea in the shower the other day. Probably because I hadn’t had my morning coffee yet. But go with me for just a second:
Most people agree that the way starting pitchers are used in baseball has changed in the last 10 or 20 years… everybody’s on pitch counts, and complete games are rare nowadays. Plus, a common strategy now used against “aces” is to run up their pitch counts by intentionally taking pitches, fouling things off for a while, and so on. So we end up with a game in which starting pitchers rarely last more than 2/3 of the way through games. Sometimes they go less. And this puts pressure on relivers they’ve historically never had. Now they have to pitch every day (or, alternatively, a club has to carry 6 or 7 relivers, when they used to have 2 or 3).
So maybe, with this fundamental change in the game, this “tag team starters” approach is not as off the wall as it sounds. No, it would not reduce the bloated size of pitching staffs, but it would redistribute things, so that the ratio of starters to relievers was back the way it used to be in the good ol’ days.
Crazy? Probably. But not as crazy as inverting the game. :)
Also not as crazy as continually misspelling “relievers,” but that’s baside the point.
Chill out people. He is just tossing out some sarcasm and humor during a time where we completely suck and play down to our competition. Just Relax, and not take everything so seriously.. my god.
This has been done before. Bobby V tried it with someone – it didn’t work. They’ll be down by 4 when they start.
Another ZANY post by the Jayson Stark of metsblog, Joe Janish!
(brought to you by Geico)
Joe, in the words of Bill Parcells: “Stupid, stupid, stupid!
Keep trying.
Didn’t Girardi do this exact thing this season?
I believe it was cause the game was expected to be rained out, so why bother throwing your starter at all if he’s going to go 2 innings.
The 4th or so came around, and the starter came in.
Yikes, I’m surprised how few commenters realize that Joe’s post was a joke. Relax, gang!
If it’s a joke, he didn’t phrase it very well. Also, honestly, he’s lost so much credibility over his last few posts that I wouldn’t put much past him.
i think the last paragraph makes it known it was a joke … delgado to ss… doug flynn out of retirement and brian schineder as leadoff hitter…
sheesh, learn to read
I did read it, and the jokes at the end are nothing but a hedge.
we know it was a joke. it was just.
a. stolen material
b. WILDLY unamusing.
Joe Janish is to metsblog as Aaron Heilman is to the 9th inning.
Haha…Janish is a “malcontent” who wants to be the “lead blogger.” He needs to go to be sent to another blog. Sometimes a change of scenery can work for bloggers who have “lost it.”
id be pleased with a change in scenery
It’s like that Obama as a muslim cartoon on the cover of the New Yorker. Satire doesn’t come with instructions.
But some would-be satirists need them.
Frankly, I think he threw in the bit about Doug Flynn as an “out.” My guess is that he’s had this idea for a long time and was just itching to blast it out across our screens like so much projectile puke.
What is this? Amateur Blogger Hour?
ha!
Did Joe Janish eat your lunches, people?? What is everybody so upset about?? Yeesh!
I know. Several people here need a nap. Geez.
I am getting tired of this team. They are not fun to watch. What’s sickening is to see all of the effort by Reyes, Delgado, Wright, Santana, Perez and the others who put up decent numbers all go to waste because some misguided reliever is afraid to throw the ball over the plate.
If it weren’t such an obvious pattern I wouldn’t mind so much. but especially with Heilman, he gets two outs quickly so he figures he can work around the batter on the last out. And lo and behold he always walks the guy. He then gets down on himself and loses composure. It is a pattern.
I would like to know how many of Heilman’s homers he allowed were with two outs.
The others tend to get too fancy as well. If you are going to get beat, let them beat you. Stop giving it to them. Throw the ball over the plate. Nobody wins games by walking batters.
Dumb idea? Yeah, but is it any dumber than trotting the same five or six clowns out of the bullpen to throw batting practice every night? Manuel should just throw a ball into the stands at the start of the seventh inning and if you catch it, you pitch.
I’m amazed at how many people simply post comments calling this a stupid idea, but don’t actually identify one reason why.
There are a few notable exceptions — in particular, some of the commenters identified the problem of having to decide whether to pinch-hit for the starter late in the game, and others identified the problem of what to do if the starter falters (and all the relievers are gone). I think these are pretty good objections and may be reason alone to reject the idea. But it would be real nice if people articulated their opposition rather than just calling something stupid. Leave that to Joe Morgan.
It’s a dumb idea because it doesn’t change anything. Blow the game late or get blown out early, the final results are the same. Joe Smith’s meatballs would be just as easy to hit in the third inning as they are in the seventh. The problem is not when they pitch but how they pitch.
why not? If something doesnt work try something else. I don’t blame him if it doesnt work. Btw the iTouch is great!
Thought was given to this.
Time was given to this.
You will never have that thought or time back, and now neither will I.
janish stikes again……what a joke
Well, you have to put them in sometime… Somebody has to bridge the gap between the starter and the end of the game.
Unless the starters are going to throw 150 pitches a game, you have to put your worst pitchers in at some point. After all, aren’t most middle relievers/ set up men not good enough to be a starter or closer?
There are very few Mariano Rivera circa 1996 situations in BASEBALL HISTORY! Eventually, you’re going to have to put in a fresh arm, but at the same time, and arm that is considerable less talented than the guy who started the game.
At least doing it at the back end of a game gives you some flexiblity. For example, as you said, Smith is the first guy out of the pen and can’t get the outs, so Manuel can go to any one of five other guys. Maybe they’re a bit luckier (if not better).
Doing it at the beginning of the game limits the flexibility at the end of the game, when you need it the most because the margin for error is so much smaller.