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Lee Mazzilli, and not Doc Gooden, will be revealing No. 16 on the wall of Shea Stadium tonight, during the Lincoln Mercury Countdown.
…i do not know if gooden was contacted to take part in tonight’s Countdown, though the team has reached out to him to take part in the final day of Shea…
…no disrespect to lee, but when i see No. 16 in blue and orange, i’m thinking Doctor K…
…so, while i am am happy for lee, i am disappointed knowing doc will not make his return to shea tonight…
Speaking of stadiums, to watch a cool slideshow, tracking the start of construction at Citi Field to where it stands today, courtesy of Michael Baron from NYMets.info, click here.
“Lee Mazzilli, and Doc Gooden, will be revealing No. 16 on the wall of Shea Stadium tonight, during the Lincoln Mercury Countdown.”
So… is Doc going to be there or what?
My question as well…Not trying to get on Matt just a clarification
Obviously, he meant “Lee Mazzilli, and NOT Doc Gooden” and left a word out…..come on guys, couldn’t figure that out from the rest of the post??
How do I know he didn’t accidentally include Not in the subject? Not is a key word in the whole post and it is missing.
The whole post is confusing in itself…why is there an 18 jersey instead of a 16?
I am sure this will lead to everyone jumping on me and defending matt blah blah blah. I rarely make any critical statements about the blog but this one confused me all together.
Wouldn’t surprise me if he’s not there tonight — I’m a big Gooden fan, but he’s been in a world of hurt over the past 18 months or so — does anyone even know where he is?
Mazzilli sure has gotten a lot of mileage out of one All-Star appearance.
Obviously. C’mon guys, please do a little better at trying to decipher what is meant by these posts rather than simply reading what is written — Matt’s a busy guy and apparently doesn’t have time to read over the couple of paragraphs he writes before posting.
THANK YOU!!
I mean, the answer only lies in the title and the ENTIRE content of the post…..
Doc Gooden probably couldn’t make it because he no longer has a crack source in NY and would be jonesing too hard having smoked his entire supply on the flight up.
Get clean, Doc. Good luck to you.
I suppose it’s more to avoid Mets fans like yourself.
Pardon my bitter disappointment in the man.
Well you should bear in mind that his career trajectory was halted by blowing out his shoulder, not drugs, no matter how many times Bob Klapisch wants to wax poetic to the contrary.
Guy never touched drugs between 1987 and 1994…only relapsed out of frustration from being on the DL in 94. Not an excuse, but drugs did not cause his demise. You might remember the no-hitter and playoff starts for Cleveland in his post-Mets career…but in any case he would not have ever regained his dominance once his sohulder blew, drugs or not.
If you’ve never had a close friend or family member in this situation than you don’t know what bitter disappointment is.
That’s all fine. He missed the 86 victory parade. I was his biggest fan. That was a screaming f- you.
Hey I was 13 in ‘87 when his suspension came down. I was devastated. But facts are facts regarding his career.
And Keith and Ojeda nearly slept through the parade also, that story is infamous. The whole team was wasted besides Mookie and Carter!
Dave 27, how do you know if he never touched drugs during those years??
gameball:
I’ve tried to post this several times to no avail. Let’s just say I know bitter disappointment. Thank you for presuming I didn’t.
I don’t ‘know” but the fact is he never tested positive and claims he never touched coke again prior to 1994 – and it’s not like he’s got anything to hide on the matter.
True, he has nothing to hide. Good point. I just guess my disappointment in him after 1985 colors my judgment a bit perhaps. I did post a couple of stat things which I think support my argument below. Definitely respect your opinion though.
Not many pitchers, much less 18 year olds, are allowed to throw as many innings as he did in the minors, and then two years later toss 276 innings, and throw 140+ pitches five times at age 20 (including his 24th win where he threw 153 pitches four days after throwing 140 for win #23).
Davey Johnson knew but supposedly refused Frank Cashen’s request to limit his innings, stating that Nolan Ryan was throwing more pitches.
So maybe turn your bitterness toward Doc’s blown shoulder in 1989 to Davey.
My bitterness has to do with his attitude of entitlement rather than his declining ability.
I was sad to see Edgardo Alfonzo lose his ability, but i have no bitterness toward him.
Doc threw it away and then acted like someone screwed him.
Yeah, Tidewater’s right about this aspect of it, especially his last sentence. Straw seems to have finally conquered his demons and grown up; I wish the same for Doc.
And as for turning bitterness towards Davey Johnson—NEVER!! The captain of the 1986 ship stands tall with me. I was at the amazing 1986 celebration 2 years ago, and the complete lack of any mention of Davey was absolutely revolting, and the Met organization at its very worst. Regardless of their reasons.
Actually I read something recently that said Doc wants nothing to do with the Mets organization but is all about being apart of the yankees. I know both Daryl and Doc went to the Yankees but Daryl always acknowledges that he should not have left the Mets and always discusses how he is a Met above any other team. I don’t feel the same about Doc. I hope he doesn’t come
Is that why Darryl shows up at Yankee Old Timers Day?
What’s wrong with that if they invite him? He is on Met pregame shows, and comes to spring training with us, so what’s wrong with him being at Yankee Stadium for Old Timer’s Day to acknowledge the fans there who cheered for him? Would refusing to go and thumbing his nose at Yankee fans make him a better person or a better Met?
He actually said this AT old timers day.
Did he blow off the Mets to do Old Timers Day? NO.
Does he blow off anything the mets do and ask him to do? NO
Doc hates the Mets for some reason. He said he doesn’t want anything to do with the Mets, ever.
Perhaps because when they footed the bill for his rehab stint they so selfishly forgot to apply themselves and get clean. Oh, wait, that was him.
That is curious, huh?
The rehab bill in 1987 that led to a drug-free, ace-of-staff Doc Gooden for the following 6 years? Must be that one, because when he relapsed in 1994 they cut him.
I don’t believe for a second that he was drug free all those years you suggest he was.
He was tested extensively – that’s all you can go by. And he was there every 5th day on top of his game, even if everything written about him now makes it sound like his career ended in 1986.
Sorry, I just get sensitive to the revisionist history out there. The Mets blew the kid’s arm out – 19-year olds should not be throwing 250 innings a year.
Yeah, I am with Tidewater on this one….Gooden took so many millions from the Mets for years of subpar performances due to addiction. I think there has been some comment that he is annoyed number 16 isn’t retired, but other than that, who knows.
But what’s wrong with Mazzilli? Certainly not on Doc’s level, but he had a few good years when the Mets were at their absolute lowest point in the late 70s, and watching him (and Dave Kingman of course) was about the only thing worth watching at Shea in the late 70s.
And in that one All-Star game, Maz hit a homer and walked with the bases loaded to drive in a run….
Huh? Please post Gooden’s yearly stats from 87-93 and explain how they were “supbar” due to an “addiction” he never tested positive for during that time?
It is not with pleasure that I turn my back on Gooden. This is a guy who captured my imagination in so many ways. He was given chance after chance with this team, and blows them, and has the gall to get bent out of shape when they give the number 16, an number HE STAINED, to another ball player.
He acts as if he were wronged. That is typical of an addict (see? maybe I do have some experience in this arena!) and sure, his addiction is worthy of sympathy. But where’s his apology to the fans who supported him every step of the way? Where’s his effort to deserve the right to be a part of this team or these fans?
Don’t forget I ended my first post with “Get clean, and good luck.” I meant those words. I hope he does. But I’m not investing any more time in a junkie. It always leads to heartache.
Gooden’s ERA and WHIP—maybe the two most important stats–were better in 84, 85, and 86 than he EVER recorded again. He had two of his best three years of his entire career in Ks, CGs, shutouts, and IP in his first three years.
To me, this shows that he was never as good after 1986 as he was in 1984-1986.
This is not generally the career trajectory for great pitchers, I do not think…they often get better in their late 20s. Doc was never again as good as he was in 1984-1986 after the coke problems became severe.
And I was a huge Gooden fan too, and followed him in A ball in 1983 and vividly remember his debut against the Astros. I met him in Seattle about 10 years ago and he was actually VERY gracious—this was during a rehab period and he was with his sponsor or whatever, but when I told him I was a lifelong Met fan and followed him from the minors, he did look me in the eye, shake my hand, and thank me very sincerely.
So I am no Doc-hater; I just wish he could have put up 12–15 years like 1984-1986. I still think his 1985 was the best season I have seen for a pitcher in my lifetime. Who ever had a curve break like his?
these doc haters need to get a clue.
Good post–good point and excellent argument.
btw:
What kind of clue? And I’m not a Doc “hater” as you suggest.
Kingman – I agree he never hit his 84-86 numbers, but were still talking about a 19-game winner as late as 1990.
By all accounts he started messing with coke in the winter after 86, got busted, did his time, and was clean thereafter until 94. There are a ton of reasons he didn’t post the same eye-popping numbers after 85, not the least of which were wear and tear on this ARM (which to the best of my knowledge is not damaged by cocaine), hitters familiarity with him, de-emphasis of strikeouts to manage pitch count…
No he was never ‘85 Doc Gooden again, but he was the defacto ace of the staff throughout the decade and only Cone in ‘88 and Viola in ‘90 could ever really lay claim to the staff ace title.
Listen people can like him, not like him, whatever – but the standard line “DWight Gooden threw his career away to drugs” is nonsense – its far more complex than that.
Had he started injecting himself with HGH in 1994 instead of snorting coke like someone whose career his paralelled to that point, maybe he’d also have 320 wins. In the end 194 wins, 3 World Series Rings, and Cy Young, Rookie of the Year and a No-hitter is not too shabby, and with the damage on his arm he never would have lasted to reach the lofty numbers everyone thought he might when he was 20.
Well, I must say you do represent your side of the argument very, very well.
Thank you sir…I feel particularly stong about the Clemens comparison. These guys were neck and neck career-wise through 1993. I’d take Doc’s performance-unenhanced 194 wins any day over that cheating liar’s 320. Ironic that Gooden (and Cone) spent the whole 2000 postseason sitting around the Yankee bullpen while Clemens was their roid-raging ace throwing bats at Piazza. Had Gooden and Cone made the choices Clemens had, they might have been starting in front of him.
As I posted above, regarding why Doc’s performance peaked in 1985, and slowly got worse and worse until surgery was required three years later:
Not many pitchers, much less 18 year olds, are allowed to throw as many innings as he did in the minors, and then two years later toss 276 innings, and throw 140+ pitches five times at age 20 (including his 24th win where he threw 153 pitches four days after throwing 140 for win #23).
Davey Johnson knew but supposedly refused Frank Cashen’s request to limit his innings, stating that Nolan Ryan was throwing more pitches.
Why Dusty Baker is blamed for Mark Prior and Kerry Wood’s similar fates and you don’t blame Davey for doing the same thing but worse is not fair to Doc.
I think the reason is the 15x he begged the Phillips administration to come back in the late 90s and was ignored.
And what I had read was that he had no intention of returning to Shea before it is torn down, not that “he doesn’t want anything to do with the Mets, ever.” Where did you read that?
He certainly was heatbroken over missing the ‘86 reunion and had he been able it’s hard to believe he wouldn’t have come…and that he won’t come to Mets events in the future under the right circumstances.
Personally I wish the Mets would embrace him like they have Straw.
Straw’s made it much easier for his former teams and teammates to embrace him.
They have tried to embrace him at various times. I believe he was supposed to be at the top 10 Mets of all time celebration years ago and didn’t show up. Yet Straw who was in jail at the time took the time to make a video to thank the fans for the votes and say that he will be at Shea soon enough.
Doc before the ‘86 celebration was interviewed in Newsday and he expressed his sadness of not being able to attend due to his incarceration. He has been out for awhile since and has not made an appearance.
From Newsday
“Gooden, meanwhile, for some reason still has a bad taste about the way his Mets days ended. He told me last month he has no desire to return to Shea. When I asked about returning one last time, he winced as if the mere thought pained him.”
What he can’t acknowledge the fans?
Well after just doing a year in jail, maybe it’s alot to ask that this be the right time for him. I’d be shocked if someday Doc Gooden is not back a Citifield.
My issue is he runs straight to the Yankees. There is word he will once again be employed by the NY Yankees again.
Obviously Matt meant to say NOT Doc Gooden. Who cares anyway? The whole countdown thing is so meh. It seems so cheesy the way the Mets have done it all year. Sometimes a player with the appropriate number would be there, sometimes not. It’s like they’re doing it by the seat of their pants, with little or no pre-planning whatsoever.
Not every number is represented by a prominent member or former member of the organization.
I guess we can be pretty certain that Mookie will be there for the penultimate game.
#1 does not get nearly as much support in the retired number discussion…but no doubt he shold do the honors to kick off hte pregame celebration.
At least since we’ve gotten to below 50 or so, they can find a player at least to ask. Maybe they have and been turned down, but nearly every time I’m at Shea, it’s some guy from a bank.
15 could be Ronnie, though he switched a few times.
14 – Joan Hodges, no doubt
13 – Maybe Fonzie? Mazzilli will already have been used
12 – Darling or John Stearns?
11 – Tim Teufel? Best of a mixed bag
10 – Rusty. No question.
9 – All I can come up with here is Hundley. Wilpon loved him – as long as the Mitchelll report didn’t turn him off.
8 – Kid.
7 – Kranepool
6 – Backman makes the most sense.
5 – Would love to see Davey back – if not then maybe The Helmet, John Olerud.
4 – Lenny or Ventura work.
3 – Buddy.
2 – Bobby V sighting?
1 – Mookie.
Heck…there was an original vendor there last week to reveal a number!! Why didn’t they call me?
They had the original organist a few weeks back. That was nice she is in a wheelchair and got a great ovation.
Other people that have pulled it down have been sponsors which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
JonFranco was on the fan a couple weeks again and he said he had just spoken to Doc and Doc never wants to have anything to do with the mets.
OK – I just didn’t know where that came from.
It’s too bad – Yes, the Mets turned their back on him, but it was not without reason. You’d hope he could get past it.
I didn’t hear this. Did Franco have anything nice to say about the Mets himself?
I wonder if they’ll have Reyes take down 7 and Wright take down 5 ?
Gooden is a joke. Let him continue to beg his way back into George’s good graces and let us be done with him.
I would think it’d be hard to take down the number with handcuffs on.
Good one!!
Maz was the man in a down period for the Mets. I see nothing wrong with using Maz for this.
I agree wholeheartedly…..Maz was like a matinee idol at Shea for a few rotten years in the 70s, and while not great, he was very good for the Mets as a starter for a few years, and then as a bench player later.
Guys like Maz who were local, homegrown crowd favorites should get their due as well.
For that matter that’s when he was #16. Latter-era pinch-hitting Lee was #13.
Did anyone hear Gary Cohen rattle off the list of names wearing #17 since 1995? It was downright hysterical. Keith was almost speechless.
Brent Mayne Apr 1 1996 Sep 29 1996
Luis Lopez Jun 2 1997 Oct 4 1999
Mike Bordick Aug 28 2000 Oct 26 2000
Kevin Appier Apr 3 2001 Oct 7 2001
Satoru Komiyama Apr 1 2002 Sep 29 2002
Graeme Lloyd Mar 31 2003 Jul 28 2003
Jason Anderson Aug 28 2003 Sep 28 2003
Wilson Delgado Aug 12 2004 Oct 3 2004
Dae-Sung Koo Apr 4 2005 Aug 22 2005
Jose Lima May 7 2006 Jul 7 2006
David Newhan Apr 1 2007 Sep 30 2007
Fernando Tatis May 13 2008
Suprised he didn’t vomit re: Graeme Lloyd, Jose Lima, and Satoru Komiyama (c’mon, he’s not even a real player, is he?)
5 — Ed Charles
6 — agree on Backman, Al Weis would be a nice touch if you want to connect the two championship teams. How about Bobby Pfeil?
12 — I’d take Ken Boswell over Stearns
13 — Neil Allen
Knowing Gooden, he’d oversleep and miss the day he was supposed to take the number down anyway. Just like he missed the parade in ‘86.
It’s a shame, but I know for a fact from a family member of Doc’s that he is a real mess and basically does crack all day with Derek Bell in Tampa somewhere.
What about Gary Carter AND Yogi Berra for #8? He (Yogi) played for the Mets in ‘65, coached them from ‘65 – ‘71 and managed the Mets to the ‘73 series.
I know, I know but wouldn’t that be a nice kick in the balls to the Yankees!
Carter is the one who should no longer be bashed by some fans and the organization should pay tribute to their only Hall of Fame catcher other than Piazza when he’s eligible (wasn’t his choice to go in Expo).
doc should be in the mets hall of fame. his #16 should be retired too. i know he had and perhaps still has some problems, but so have lots of other players.
every mets fans i knew (even plenty of yankees fans) went to mets games specifically when doc pitched b/c of the electricity in the building.
What’s all the nostalgia for Gooden?
Nose candy sniffing jerkstore who wasted his immense talent and effed the team over.
And yes, I was there in 85 onwards to see him be dominant (until he sniffed it away anyway)
That’s the thing though. I don’t think the Mets have a choice, Doc is too much of a mess to get it together for even one day at Shea. Anything that is perceived to be a Mets/Doc problem is really a Doc problem. Doc was told by Steinbrenner he would have a job for life with the Yankees if he cleaned himself up, and he still can’t do it.
The doctor is out:
I am very disappointed in the fact that Dwight Gooden has not yet been honored at Shea. I am 37 , and he is to my generation what Tom Seaver was to kids in the late 60’s.This was the perfect opportunity to start to mend the fences with him and get him back in the fold. I get that there has been some resentment on Dwight’s part towards the organization, but the Mets have to be the bigger guy here and try to reconcile with Dwight . It doesn’t mean they should hire him to host a pre-game show like Darryl, but it would be nice to see him wave to the fans on the mound and maybe come in the booth and schmooze with his old teammates Keith and ronnie for a bit. I have more memories of Doc on Kiner’s Korner than just about any other player in the 80.s
I’ll never forget it seemed like the day after Dwight got suspended from the Mets in 94 his Nike billboard was taken down from the building on the Manhattan side of the Lincoln tunnel and replaced with Patrick Ewing’s and just like that his star status was revoked and he disappeared only to re-emerge as a Yankee and have one more moment of glory by throwing a no-hitter for them.
I’ll never forget the articles about Dwight being a different pitcher in 1988 , relying more on his Lord Charles beautiful curve ball than just his explosive high rising fastball. They were praising him for developing into more of a picher than a thrower. He was still a great pitcher and it was the injuries he began to sustain after 1990, that affected his stats. Even though he was no longer a mythical pitcher with the unhittable fastball he was stillthe
pitc her you had to watch.
I can understand someone battling personal addictions though have never dealt with it. It is not my place as a Met fan to forgive Dwight Gooden for the drug addictions he has struggled so hard to deal . I want to see him back wearing a #16 jersey at Shea becasue he is a part of the memories of that stadium and that mound the way Ewing and Leech were to the Garden.
It only took me a winter in 1988 to get over Doc giving up a homer to Mike Socisia. Why has it taken the Mets and Gooden so long to reconcile?
Doc’s stats 1987-1994:
99-66, .600 pct, 3.53 ERA, 206 games, 32 CG, 1131 SO, 10 ShO
No these aren’t ‘84-’86 numbers but anyone who expected that to last was a fool.
Question is, what would a pitcher cost in today’s dollars to provide those type of numbers for 8 seasons?