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The Mets blew a seven-run lead with 17 outs left to play last night, as MetsBlog reader James H pointed out to me in an e-mail.
…if this sounds familiar, it’s because the Mets blew a seven-game lead in the standings last season, with 17 games to play in the season, to lose the division…
Jerry Manuel, following the game, said:
“Yeah, we blew a seven-run lead. You know, they played good baseball. They cough the baseball, they turned the double plays when they had to, we couldn’t add on, they got hits at the right time, and we were one
out away and couldn’t get it done. I mean, that’s baseball. I think you’re gonna get a hard-fought game and hard-fought battles all the way through, and that’s the way it’s gonna be…We’ve had some tough losses all year. The sun will come up tomorrow, and we’ll play again. That’s the way baseball is, and we’ll be okay.”
Pedro Martinez, who let up two two-run home runs in the fifth inning, speaking to reporters after the game, said:
“In this stadium, with this team, you just never know – five runs, seven runs, it’s never enough. I’ve seen it before, it’s not the first time. (The Phillies) never give up, especially playing here. This band-box here is a perfect place for them to play, and they know how to play in this field too, they take advantage of the fans and everything that goes around…It’s pretty bad that we lost the game, but we battled and both teams battled hard to win this game. Today they won, tomorrow hopefully we’ll return the favor and everything will be back to normal.”
David Wright, regarding the loss, while speaking to reporters following last night’s loss, said:
“Obviously this stings, but we’ve been very good at recovering next day…The last time we were here we had a tough loss and then we bounced back and won three straight from them.”
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What a bunch of bull from pedro, wright, and manual. A 7 run lead in any ballpark should make you be able to win a game. The 5 runs that Pedro gave up were hit hard. Rollins homerun would of probably went out in Shea Stadium or it would of been a triple. Even if we win today last night loss will still hurt because yesterdays loss probably is going to haunt us in the long haul.
Nah, I’m pretty sure I could care less about yesterday’s loss if they win tonight.
Same.
I agree with you Night but if they lose tonight with Johan on the mound look out it is not going to be pretty.
I imagine a lot of people were and may still be ready to jump off a bridge after last night. I was probably one of them. Then I woke up and said to myself it will make it that much sweeter when we sip the champagne in the end.
Seriously this loss scars me because it gives the Phillies confidence against us with 4 left. Everyone was saying we had really stuck it to them all season by winning a lot but if they finish off the season series sweeping us I believe the season series is tied.
We thought the Sanatana blown game and the 10-9 thriller would give the Phillies confidence against us too, but they still weren’t able to carry any momentum over.
Really? You’d be 1/2 up instead of 2.5 up.
Yeah, you’ll care about yesterday everytime you scoreboard watch
Nah, I don’t think I’ll care.
Look with a 7-0 lead there is no way that we should loose this game no matter where we are playing or who it is, its simple. It makes me sick that as a fan I have no confidence in this team to hold a lead late in a game. As a fan all you need to do is tune in after the 6th inning and watch, because, nothing that happened before then matters. We come out fast and hard and them go limp fast. Even if we win tonight it wont change the chance we had and squandered away. IF we loose the division by one game again it will be THIS game that killed us.
The issue with all this is that it becomes hard to believe the Mets can be a serious contender for a championship if they can not hold these large leads. Regardless of their ability to bounce back, losing these types of games usually mean the difference between winners and losers.
For some, odd, reason I think if they were to make the playoffs I would have much more confidence in team in late inning situations–whether it’s hitting or the bullpen. I just think once they get the monkey off their back about last season they wouldn’t have any pressure on them in the playoffs because they would not be favored in the NL at all.
I mean, how sweet would it be to, say, knock a would be heavily favored Cubs out of the playoffs in the last season at Shea? Not to get ahead of myself or anything………….
the mets will go nowhere if they go to sleep after taking an early lead. a team with the offense of a phillies’ team is one that can strike at anytime and has players who raise their game against the mets.
the mets get complacent and don’t have good at-bats as the game goes on a lot of times. it’s quite frustrating. you’re not going to far into the postseason when you expect the bullpen to bail you out, game in game out.
It’s clear that the Phills have certain of our relief staff absolutely figured out. Feliciano should ONLY be used to get Howard out in a key spot, and should not be allowed to face ANY other Phillie batter.
Despite Heilman’s performance last night, I don’t believe he can be trusted with a close lead late in games.
Stokes and Ayala are key, as they are new pieces that were not part of last year’s collapse. Even though Ayala gave up the tying run, I like his approach.
The advantage we have this year is that our starting pitching is stronger than it was last Sept. If we take the division this time, that will be the deciding factor.
BTW, am I the only one who thinks that we would have won it if Argenis Reyes had been at 2B for the 9th?
Are you talking about the throw home? The relay from Church? Because although I like A. Reyes’ defense, I don’t think he necessarily would have executed that a whole lot better than Easley did. Damion’s throw was pretty much on the money; it just bounced in the absolutely worst place.
Also, keep in mind that Easley was one double short of the cycle last night, whereas Argenis hit into a double play. Different parts of the game, mind you, but still… you can “what if” this stuff forever; in the end, there are plusses and minuses and trade-offs involved in every decision.
I realize I’m probably grasping at straws. Easley’s throw was not terrible, if not great, but the fact is we had our third best defensive 2Bman out there in the 9th.
True enough, but with the Mets leading by only two runs (hell, ONE at that point), do you remove all your offensive players and replace them with defensive ones, particularly given the likelihood that the bullpen will give up runs (and quite possibly via walks and/or home runs, against which no defense is of any use)?
I guess I’m just saying it’s a tough call. Easley played a hell of a game and was on fire offensively. It would have been pretty hard to justify taking him out.
Actually, one game does not say _anything_ about a team.
For every stupid loss like this one, there are others where they somehow scratched out a win, or held on for a win. Theoretically, you won’t have a 7-0 lead in the playoffs facing better teams. And even if you were to blow a game like this, even in the DS, you still have to blow three of them to actually lose.
Good points.
And as starting the pregame thread last night with “Ugh, Easley” worked out so well, can you do that tonight with someone else?
I do mean this in good respectful fun…..
“Ugh…late inning scoring”
As much as Castillo is the better option, and needs some everyday playing to get back into form, you _have_ to put Easley back in the lineup tonight.
This team is used to “bad losses”. Then have so many this year I lost count. If any team knows how to deal with rebounding from a bad loss, it’s the Mets. They have been bouncing back from them all year.
Yeah. If the players on this team had the mindset of a lot of the commentators on this site they would about 85 games out at this point.
Look we won it all in 1986 nad have been teased and let down ever since then. We lost it 1988 to the Dodgers, we lost in 1999 to the Braves , we lost the WS in 2000 to the Skanks and we lost in 2006 to the Cards and we wont even talk about 2007. As fans we want to see this team win. Since the Red Sox have broken the curse and won it twice in four years. ITS OUR TIME !! When we drop games like this to teams like this it kills us as fans. Santana and tonight wont change that. And I am ready for a loss tonight and a 2/1/2 game deficeit. If we win great, but, emotionally , Im prepared for a big loss.
Comparing our “21 Year Curse” to before the Red Sox broke their “curse” in ‘04 is absurd.
Technically, it’s the Cub’s time, but I hear you loud and clear.
I must be the only person who isn’t distraught over losing last night. Disappointed? Sure but whatever. I actually honestly expected them to try and make some kind of dirty play and give Church another concussion. I mean if Victorino has no problem headbutting a catcher and Moyer shoving an umpire out of the way what’s to stop them?
I think you feel that way because this is been the norm all year. It’s just how this team loses games. The blow late inning leads. I’m kind of used to it as well, as I’m sure the players are.
Can you imagine what this season would be looking like if the bullpen not blown so many bad games? I would love to see a stat of how many times the Bullpen has blown 4+ run leads this year.
I mean last night was on Pedro as much as it was the Bullpen as much as it was the Offense who continues to go to sleep time and time again. This team never seems to play the complete game. 9 innings of solid fundamental baseball is not what you get from Los Mets
the bullpen only blew a 2 run lead last night, Pedro gave up 5 of those runs before he came out. This loss isn’t on the bullpen, they gave up 3 runs in 8 innings, that’s really not that bad. This loss is on Pedro and the offense for shutting it down after the 4th.
Exactly. would it make you feel less bad if the Phillies had scored the 5 in the first and the Mets the 7 in the 5th? No.
this post is a travesty, and for anyone that was criticizing Matt for being too ‘not a fan’ in his analysis of the game last night has only to look at the fear mongering in this post. 7 for 17? pfft. You can make any numbers say anything you wan them to, thing is, last year has no affect on this year. It’s different.
And if you want to be technical, they blew the 7 game lead in 15 games, and then came back when the Phillies blew the 1 game lead with 2 to play.
Disappointed? Are you sure you’re not devastated? ; )
Nah, me too. Terrible, awful loss, but in the end, only one loss. I was mighty peeved as I went to sleep last night, but I’m over it.
The important thing at this point is whether or not the team can get over it. As has been said before, they should be used to these kinds of heartbreakers by now, what with this bullpen and all.
All things considered, having Johan going today is the best case scenario. Gotta go out and win tonight. Split this little series and it’s a wash, then go win some more. They need a dominant performance from Johan tonight to start them on another roll. Last night sucked, big time, but it’s time to move on.
Have to agree as well. The thing I think is a good idea is the mets can never ever follow those ridiculous unwritten rules we hear so often and turn off the offense. They should bunt and move runners over and play small. Delgado should have had one thing on his mind: get that runner home with less than two outs. Bunt steal keep piling on because this late inning run disparity is silly.
Delgado did have it in mind. He just didn’t execute. He got beat by a fastball inside. His bat was a touch slow last night.
It happens.
Oh I know but I am saying in that situation that’s how the mets have to think late in games. Not a knock out blow but keep adding on.
I hear you. The late inning offense is a huge problem.
i am another person that feels the same as you.
David Wright ‘this loss stings’.
Sting doesn’t even come close to my sentiments after watching that debacle.
No matter. I will be back tonight, rooting them on. I still believe they can do this. I might have a heart attack watching the rest of these game, but I will be there.
Go Johan – and Let’s Go Mets !!
I actually told my parents to be sure to make sure I am alive in the morning because the game last night was going to give me a heart attack. I am still standing, the sun came up again and the Mets are still in the hunt. I wanted the Mets to make a statement this series. They need to simply win tonight and get the wins on the rest of the road trip. Put the Marlins in their place and reel the Brewers back into their sights in the WC race
A win tonight is all that matters, gets the standings right back to where they were when we went to Philly.
Come on Johan!
Ok two things:
1. A win tonight is the most important thing. I think if anyone was offered a split before the series they would have signed for that.
2. This isn’t even the worst loss of the year to the Phillies (I’m giving those honors to the 7/22, 6th runs in the 9th abomination at Shea). And after each bad loss to the Phillies the Mets have bounced back and taken the series. I’m sure everyone was talking about Phillies “momentum” at those times too.
REYES IS A CLOWN
“The other team gives you some inspiration, let’s put it that way,” Jimmy Rollins said. “You’re able to take that and keep yourself motivated.”
OK, that’s cryptic.
Care to elaborate, Jimmy?
“No, just watch ‘em,” Rollins said. “If you were a player and you’re looking over in that other dugout, you’ll feel a certain type of way.”
Was it something they said? Something they did?
Last month in New York, several Phillies said they took offense to what they considered to be over-the-top celebrations by Mets players, specifically Jose Reyes. Did the Mets get overexcited after taking a 7-0 lead?
“Rewind the game,” Rollins said. “Just watch the game.”
Hmm…Interesting to say the least. I hope Santana plunks Rollins with the first pitch of the game.
you know jimmy rollins should suck it. Has he ever noticed the ridiculous hysterics of victorino? If that what he needs to turn his terrible season around so be it but last I checked they were at home and first place was at stake. Caring about reyes’ excitment is a tad misplaced.
The past three years the most over the top reactions have come from their dugout.
If the Phillies can play dirty, we can celebrate. Stop whining, Jimmy.
You know, I’m so tired of this crap. The Phillies — their players, their media, their fans — have been going on and on about excessive celebrations of Mets triumphs forever. You know what, Jimmy? We don’t celebrate any differently than you do. We don’t celebrate any differently than any other team in baseball. Or football. Or soccer. Or men’s volleyball, or the 100 meter dash (did you watch the olympics, Jimmy? Have you ever seen another sporting event in your life?)
When people win, they celebrate. Because they are happy. Get over it, you big baby.
Celebrate when you win, not in the 1st inning when you hit a double. Thats small time. Reyes has never won anything…
Stop acting like a clown JOSE, and while I’m at it you too TATIS…who was a noone for the last 5 years. His little hop scotch into home plate when he goes yard is laughable…
Celebrate when you win.
I disagree. And again I say, Jose Reyes is not the only player in baseball who celebrates his accomplishments. Everyone celebrates major plays — home runs, production of runs in tight situations, etc. Reyes is not a clown, he’s a human being who plays a game for a living, and he enjoys it when he’s playing well. Who doesn’t?
I was ready to come in here and remind everyone that we have been dealing with this garbage all year and the Mets always bounce back and Johan is going who has owned the Phillies and it is a scratch if we win and we look forward to the first weekend in September. But I see most of you see that already. That was a hell of a ballgame (torturous but fun) It’s a Pennant race. And it looks like it is going to be a great one.
I will really be mad about yesterday’s loss if we lose tonight as well. But since it’s Santana against Kendrick I really like our chances. Disappointing loss but so was the first game of the last series we played against them and then we took off. The bullpen really worries me though.
There are three positives to take from last night: Stokes, Heilman, and the workload of the Phillies pen.
Their pen worked 9 innings last night, and will likely work another 3, maybe 4 tonite, depending on the effectiveness of Kendrick, who is generally good for 5-6 innings. After that, they head straight to Chicago, where the Cubs hopefully put a beating on them.
The Mets on the otherhand are sending out Santana today, who hopefully is good for 7-8+ innings, plus with tomorrow’s off day, everyone should be rested.
what i don’t understand is why during the post game show, espn and various news outlets people are laying this one on the bullpen again?!?! Pedro gave up 5 runs through 5 innings!?!? The bullpen held the phils to 3 runs in 8 innings.
aside from nearly giving me a heart attack during every inning, they (the ‘pen) got the job done. this one has to fall on pedro’s shoulders. with that being said…. your offense can’t go 9 innings without a run and expect to win. 7 runs should win most games, but they really need to focus in the late innings and get add-on runs.
I agree with you. But that’s the plot line du-jour with the Mets, that the bullpen blows. The fact that Petey gave up 5 runs or that the offense went to sleep won’t get mentioned.
even if scho could have worked his way through the 13th inning…. what’s the point… so easley, wright and beltran can go groundout, popup and strikeout in the top of the 14th? they looked dead from the 6th inning on…. no amount of pitching was going to win that game for them. they need to get their collective heads out of their a$$ and find a way to score runs late in games.
yup. once ESPN latches onto a story line until it suffocates, no matter how little it applies in a particular situation. It makes their jobs easier because they don’t have to pay attention to the “games”
I didn’t really “end” that first sentence. Just go with me.
This team is driving me to drink. I saw that one coming at 7-0. This team is so vulnerable with a lead.
In the Army, we would refer to David Wright as a ‘Garrison Queen.’ He’s untouchable in peace time, racking up ‘points’ behind the security of the garrison walls. But, in combat he freezes and his comrades learn not to rely on him. In the big games (combat ops) how many times has he popped up with a man on third or second with no outs, one or two outs. He never seems productive in those cases. To David I say, if you keep marching straight the general will always love you. But to the grunt, you’ll never be a leader until you demonstrate that you possess the mental toughness for combat operations.
What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense.
In the world of baseball fans who understand the game we refer to David Wright as a “future hall of famer.”
You probably make a good ‘Follower’
Think of something intelligent to say if you can, man.
Hahaha seriuosly what is that guy even talking about? This is the first time I have ever seen someone in the armed forces making a military analogy about a sport. I thought you guys, of all people, realized attempts like that are kinda silly and incongruous.
So freaking annoying – you do realize that he was one of the few players who actually got a hit in extra innings last night, correct? He tried to get 2nd and was thrown out on a solid play from Werth. What do you want him to do, hit game winning HR’s in every tough spot?
This has been the issue with Wright this season…Look at his line, and his numbers are great. However, there have been countless times, in big spots, where Wright has simply failed to deliver. If he had succeeded in just half of those spots, he easily has 120 RBI, maybe more. So I think the flak is justified.
Of course this is where Reyes and Wright get treated differently. I mentioned above the issue with Wright. On the other hand, remember a year or two ago, Reyes gets criticized, because his OBP was barely over .300, despite the fact that he scored over 100 runs.
The flak is only justified by people who know nothing about baseball and are jealous haters.
Please tell me you didn’t relate war to baseball. You are clueless.
It’s an analogy, lost with your great intelect.
it’s a bad analogy dude because it doesn’t come close to better describing the situation.
and you spelled “intellect” wrong…when insulting someone’s intelligence, please check your spelling.
ay please get a grip people…a win today and we are back where we started before the series..worst case scenario is down by 1 1/2 games but remember philly plays the cubs after this and we play the marlins…
True, but we got Pelfrey going against the Marlins which means a lot of those sinkers are going to be smashing through windshields in the parking lot.
lol hopefully a marlin fans winshield….
Well, and maybe not. Yeah, the fish have beat up on him pretty badly this season, but it’s really still a pretty small sample size we’re dealing with here.
The good ones learn, they adjust. I have faith in Big Pelf.
Can Wright ever just keep quiet? As quiet as his bat is in clutch situations?
OverWRIGHTed
So, your suggestion is that he should look at the reporters and not say anything? What exactly do you want him to do when he is asked questions after every game?
Well, I think at this point, it is nice that the folks who don’t have a clue about understanding baseball do let us know immediately with their criticism of David Wright.
It’s pretty unreal today. David wright bashing? What next, santana bashing?
I’d like him to simply say “I su(ked tonight”
And walk away.
he played great d and got hits. He far from sucked. Is this yr first baseball game??
And if he didn’t talk to the media you would grill him for not talking to them. You can’t have it both ways.
Yes I can actually.
You know how he can avoid it?
By producing in the clutch.
Otherwise any attack- no matter how unfair – is fair game.
There’s a new drinking game you can play with Wrights ABs – everytime he has a bad at bat in a clutch situation and you see him toss the bat in frustration, take a drink.
Dude….come on! You can’t be serious????
He’s soft.
And overrated.
Furioso, all you need is a bright red nose and long yellow shoes to complete the clown costume. Or perhaps you have them on right now.
Hero worship much?
No, it is called logic and understanding the situation.
The clown comment was rude, but supporting Wright isn’t hero worship, it is knowing a great player when I see one.
YES, his BA with RISP could be better, but that is not the only phase of his game.
honestly I don’t mind losing a game because my favorite players emotions riles up the other team. This conversation is getting old. Everyone wants to see some swagger and when it shows everyone becomes a little weak voiced pussy saying “don’t show too much emotions ….”
Seriously – do we really think that the Phillies won last night because they got pumped up by Reyes? I think Rollins had a good game last night because the law of averages say that every player is due a big game every now and then. He hasn’t had many this year so his time came up.
And if that’s why he had a big game then that’s sad on his part.
It’s pretty evident that with no clutch hitting and a horrible bullpen, that if we don’t get a quality start from our starters, 9 times out of 10, we’re in deep trouble. It’s unfathomable that they can score 7 runs in four innings and nothing for 9 innings after that. You should at least pick up a run or two over the course of 9 innings. And it’s not like it happens once in a while. It’s all the time.
Agree 110% and it’s not like we’re facing Sandy Koufax either in those late innings. It simply goes beyond logic and reason.
Tonight is exactly the reason we got Johan this offseason. Let’s hope he delivers.
I agree with most posters on here about it being just one game and it’s time to move on, no big deal. But at the same token, how many times are we going to keep saying the same “party line”? At some point the OLE standard response of “It’s just one game” is not going to hold water anymore. If we miss making the Playoffs by one game, How many of those “It’s just one game” would we love to have back?
It’s not the fact that they lost “One game” that bothers me, It’s HOW they lost that “One Game”.
I think it helps that they have rebounded from every other disasterous loss this season. I think many fans felt the season was over on a variety of occasions only to see the team go on a winning streak soon thereafter. As long as that continues to happen, I think people will remain cautiously optimistic.
I agree…all these “just one games” will come back to haunt us in the end. This will be a close race down to the last week and we’ll wish we had a few back that got away.
I know we can bounce back to get a split tonight but a 2 game sweep in their park would have really, really sent a nice message.
Oh well keep fighting…it’s going down to the wire and I’ll have no finger nails left by October 1st.
All they had to do was catch a relay at the plate….
Winners execute. This team cannot execute in the clutch
That pretty much breaks it down to the most common denominator! Basic grammer school math. lol
Its really ashame, because they had Werth pegged at the plate, if Mr.Defense, Brian Schneider can field a shorthop.
It is not a computer game!! It is real life, and things happen at lightning speed and the throw was very low and the hop was a VERY difficult short hop which is virtually impossible to catch!
Come on, they are not robots!
No, they’re professional players who are supposed to execute plays.
That’s how you win games.
When the Phils had to execute, they had no problems doing so.
Oh, stop it. We executed tons of great plays last night. Just not that one. And the Phils got the job done last night, yes, but you want to look at how many routine plays they’ve blown over the course of the year?
You can’t take the failure to execute a single tight play during one game as evidence of being unprofessional. That’s ridiculous hyperbole.
Because they executed with lead off doubles and didn’t score.
Flat out, the Phillies failed less yesterday.
I think Stokes should have pitched the 8th period!!! the bullpen was not the complete blame last night but that is all they talked about on the WFAN last night… Jerry Manuel was about to pinch hit for stokes after his scoreless 6th but of course we went down easy and he was due up in the 8th …….I have to admit I was screaming at the TV to leave him in leading off the 8th and Manuegenius not only takes him out but pinch hits Evans to lead off…not a table setter like argenis or castillo……then Charlie Manuel switches pitchers and we burn another player and use Murphy …..Stokes is your long guy ….HE WAS GETTING OUTS and he recently had a four inning save………but Jerry gets ahead of himself again…..and this is not a second guess…..I had it all the way last night…..bad move Jerry…tht to me was terrible……not to mention about 10 other things with hitting in the clutch a close second
dave.
and to top it all off….he brought in sanchez!!!
I agree with you 100%. Nobody is picking this up. This was a HORRIBLE move by Moron Manuel. He just doesn’t get it!
He needs to go after this season.
Wright is like Arod-light
cant perform when it counts
sure he hits his share of Hrs and gets his share of RBI’s
and can possibly become a HOF’er
but can he do it when it matters?
And what happened to his speed?
If the mets are able to tack on one or 2 runs in those risp less than 2 outs situations
Maybe the bullpen wouldnt have all those blown saves
This loss i blame soley on the hitters
“No lead is safe at cbp”
it will be if your team can tack on runs at the same pace the other team gets their runs
i agree 100%…the bullpen pitched 8 innings and only ggave up 3 runs..but if the bats with risp woke up then those 3 runs given up by the pen would be ok
Don’t look at it “the pen gave up 3 runs in 8IP”
Because they had a 2 run lead with 2 to play”
They had a 1 run lead with 1 to play
They had a 1 run lead with 1 OUT to get, and nobody on base!
Yes, that loss IS on the bullpen.
You can’t expect two evenly matched teams to play a blowout game. Its very difficult to “tack on runs” at the same pace as the other team. This loss was on the pitching, more specifically Pedro for giving up the 4 runs to open the door. I don’t care when they score, 7 runs should be enough. I’m tired of everyone blaming the offense for scoring runs early but not late. Runs don’t count double in the last 3 innings. Scoring 7 in the 3rd inning is the same as 7 in the 8th.
its more about the fact that they seem to put it into cruise control after a big (never big enough) lead
alot of wasted opportunities
alot of outs given away
as if they just want the game to end quicker
yes its difficult to tack on runs at the same pace as the other team
but if they can Easily add runs on the board Why cant We?
i think the Mets go into the mindset of Lets go for the long ball when they have the lead
as opposed to the beginning of the game where they are playing small ball
‘get on get em over get em in’
hence the numerous pop outs and Ks and bats slamming in frustration
How about Schnider??
He was supposed to be this good defensive catcher.
I have yet to see it!!
Schnieder is like the weatherman. You always remember when he messes up but never when he’s right and you let that cloud your judgement. He is a solid defensive catcher who obviously helps the starters and prevents a lot of wild pitches which is an accomplishment with no stat attached to it. Plus his offense has really picked up lately. He’s not the problem
I was at the game last night. I’m still hungover from it (not from any alcohol I may have consumed though).
While in a loss such as this, there is certainly blame to go around. I feel that Manuel should not have taken Stokes out of the game after pitching two very easy innings and looking great. He was throwing around 96 mph. We were up two runs and the bullpen . . . well, you already know. Why in the world you take out someone who was pitching lights out with a two run lead against the Phillies going into the bottome of the eighth inning? Stokes had pitched a brilliant four innings relief last week, so Manuel knew he could go the full four to close the game out.
I understand that the team is playing much better under Jerry than it did under Willie, but it is not because Manuel is such a great Xs and Ox guy. He has proved to me that that he is not very good at managing the pitching staff. He is very slow to learn lessons from this team. He should have kept Johan in those two Phillies games ealier in the summer rather than go to the pen.
I hope we replace him next year.
Manuel will be replaced. He has done a good job but unless we get to the WS then I would expect a change.
As for Stokes, I would have left him in too. However, if you are going to make a change, why bring in your relievers that always put men on base in Sanchez and Feliciano. Why not use Smith and Show then?
I think that WS or not manuel will be back next year. No doubt the FO realizes the difference on this team after willie left and i think they will reward him for it. It would be great to get another manager in here but i just dont see it happening unless a tony larussa type manager is available to snatch up. Im sure he brought in sanchez to get some work in as he hasnt pitched in a while and to see where he is at in velocity. I agree that he might want to try show for L at this point because felicano looks tired and is not getting the job done.
I don’t think the Phillies game in which you have already given up 5 runs with a 7 run lead is a good place for Sanchez to get some work in. You want him to get work in then let him throw a side session, LOL. I just think we have better options right now than Sanchez and Feliciano.
Real cmon you know what i mean. Sanchez i believe has the least amout of game appearances in the bullpen. Im sure manuel thought his arm would be fresh enough to give him an inning. To his credit at least he recorded an out. I agree we have better options than sanchez and feliciano but im sure for that reason alone(gm appearences) sanchez got the nodd over smith.
Exactly. He made two made moves in one. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw that.
Yeah, and hindsight is 20/20. Manuel judged that we needed more run production (true, no?) and pulled Stokes for a pinch hitter. If he had left Stokes in and Stokes had then allowed two runs, we’d all be calling Jerry an idiot for not realizing that we obviously needed more runs.
Jerry is a decent X’s and O’s guy, no better nor worse than 90% of the managers out there, but in the clubhouse he is a great manager of people, and that’s an important part of the job as well. I don’t know whether they’ll keep him or not, but I think he’s done a lot of good for this team, and I think losing him would be a mistake.
By the way the Mets have blown the lead in the 9th inning
10 times this year!!!
10 times!!!
That tells me we need a GM change more than a manager change….since this is virtually the same pen as last year
And tell us furioso what magical move would another gm do to fix our bullpen problem based off the resources we have hm? This isnt a video game..this is real life. We didnt have any resources left for a trade after the santana deal. The resources we did have were not good enough to merit a trade 1 on 1 but rather other teams were asking for the whole damn farm. No gm would be that shortsighted. Omar has done the best he could do given the resources available..the guys are just not getting the job done..thats not on omar.
The lack of available resources to help is Omar’s fault.
Didn’t he draft a whole bunch of college relievers that didn’t pan out?
Pen = mess for 2 straight years. Comon!
Dirty, it absolutely amazes me how accepting of this sort of thing someone like you can be.
I would change your username from “DirtySanchez” to “StinkySanchez” because, man, does he stink!
Its not really accepting but just reality. If you look outside for a second of the mets organization..other teams have better developed farm systems than we do. Is ours the worst..no..but scouting for drafting talent from what i understand has been a problem way before omar even got here. Is it his fault he didnt want to empty our farm system to get a reliever who may/may not have helped because nothing is a guarentee in baseball. He didnt have resources to make a “big splash” and get someone because
1)the requests by other teams were outragious and rightfully so i guess because i dont expect teams to be lining up and helping the mets win and
2)face it, other teams had better packages to offer than the mets for relief help and others.
slider while duaner is not having a good year do keep in mind this guy has not pitched in over a year and is trying to get into the groove of things..lets cut him some slack. If you thought you were going to get 06 duaner and were fooled by his early success i feel sorry for you but this is not the same guy. He should be DL but due to the impending need of the bullpen for this team..hes sucking it up and pitching on guile. Yes right now he “stinks” but were you expecting a lights out pitcher that came off 2 surgerys and over a year of not pitching….I wasnt.
Sele. Sosa. Mota.
You’re wrong.
I’m amused by those, particularly on the other thread, who say “Well, the Phillies played better fundamental baseball, and that’s why they won.”
It’s true, of course, but it explains nothing. The question is WHY the Phillies played “better fundamental baseball” than the Mets, inning after inning. And I do think there’s a psychological factor at play, having to do with mental toughness. The Phillies have it, and the Mets lack it.
The Mets may make a credible show of the 2008 season–86 wins seems reasonable–but they’re not a playoff-calliber team. Given a 7-run lead in the fourth, the leading team should win 98 games out of 100. It says a lot about “heart” that the Mets managed to find the impossibly slim margin of loss.
GREAT post. The statistically inclined, mulling over last night’s loss a year later, will argue that the offense did a fine job (seven runs), the bullpen, all told, did a fine job (two runs in 7 innings — correct me if I’m wrong), and the team just lost a close one after Pedro coughed up most of a big lead.
That sort of analysis completely misses the actual narrative, however. The fact is, except for Aaron Heilman, of all people, the entire team sh*t itself from about the fourth inning on. Two outs in the bottom of the ninth and Ayala gives up hits to Werth and Bruntlett???? And this is a guy who wasn’t even on the team last year. Neither was Schneider, letting the ball skip past him on Werth’s run. Some teams (Phils) and players (Werth, Victorino) play better under pressure. The Mets don’t. How many K’s does Wright have this year from the seventh inning on? Seems like a ton. The Beltrans, Wrights, and Delgados of the world just don’t seem to have the killer instinct necessary to win these contests. The Mets need to get nasty, and do it in a hurry.
Sorry — three runs
There is no way to measure heart guys plain and simple. This game is all about execution and the phillies executed when they had to. The mets didnt and thats why we lost. That game could have gone 50/50 but it all boils down to execution. You want to rave about the “heart” of the phillies…What about joe smith coming in to face burrell..Or stokes throwing 2 scoreless..Or even more important Heilman fighting back in his first inning of work and goes to throw 60 pitches over 3 innings. Guys the bottom line we showed our “heart” just as much as the phillies did. They just executed at the right time..we didnt…
. . . which simply asks another question. Why not? Why didn’t we execute? Why didn’t we execute all September last year? Why? Weak wills. No heart.
And that’s not related to “heart” or “guts” or the mental aspect of the game?
So if a team loses they dont have heart…is that right? Because generally the team that executes when it needs to wins the game. They usually do this by capitolizing on another teams error or just having the proper information(scouting) to make a educated guess and have an idea at the plate or on the mound. But the mets could not do this and they lost even thru the strong outtings by stokes/smith/heilman to keep the game going…but the team does not have heart.
No. We lost because we were playing a team with which we are closely matched, and they had a better day than we did.
EVERY team has bad days. Every team’s fans blame the bad days on lack of heart, lack of drive, lack of focus.
We will lose games, people. We will. The best record in baseball right now is held by the Chicago Cubs. They have won 62% of their games. That means that out of every ten, they have lost almost four.
We were outplayed in one game last night, by a team we have beaten regularly this year.
Are the Mets fundamentally flawed? Yes. So is EVERY team in baseball. The sky is not falling. Get over it.
If last night’s loss, in view of last year’s collapse, doesn’t give you some pause, you are simply afraid.
No. If a team loses, that doesn’t (necessarily) say anything about “heart.” But if a team loses when the probability of victory is extremely high, that just might.
Toomanyuniforms makes a good point: Cherrypicking strong individual performances doesn’t make a very solid argument against the concept of “heart.” Heart is nothing more than creating opportunities to win and then taking advantage of those opportunities. I’m delighted that Heilman had a good outing. But baseball’s a team sport, and the objective of the game is to win, and the tougher team won last night.
A dominant, playoff-bound team wins EVEN THOUGH the other team has some fine individual performances.
There’s a pattern here. The Mets lose games–a lot of them–that they are in the position to win. I’m surprised at the position some stat-heads take in this argument. They must know that astonishing improbability of the losses the Mets have engineered this season. They must know that the bullpen ERA since the break would be the worst ever for a playoff team. And yet they persist in finding microscopic silver-linings in the wreckage of yet another squandered victory. I just don’t get it.
tmu-see with me im over the collapse. This is a new year and will be different results guarenteed. Yes this loss sux but it was not due to lack of heart. We are still .5 back out of first, a win tonight and all this bs we are talking is for nothing. Like bos said we got outplayed. Has nothing to do with heart.
Bos-I 100% agree but this debate was AGAIN due to fans thinking this team has no heart due to a loss that could have went 50/50.
That was Willie’s approach to “The Collapse.” The Mets need to embrace the challenge.
What does the run differential stat tell the statheads? I’m curious. Best in the league 1-3, worst 7-9. Must be a fluke. . . .
not a fluke but can mean various things about our scouting of the opposing teams bullpens, perhaps we need a better use of ph who knows…
Please show me the stat that says the reason the mets are the worst in the league in innings 7-9 is due to heart..Id love to see it
Bos-I 100% agree but this debate was AGAIN due to fans thinking this team has no heart due to a loss that could have went 50/50.
So having a 7-0 lead means you have a 50/50 shot at losing??!?!
Holy jeeze
I should have wrote in extras, i didnt think i had to break it down more since it was already obvious blowing a 7 run lead was bad. In extras the game could have went 50/50. The mets did not lose this game due to “no heart” but rather through poor execution…period.
We’ve won 9 out of 14, does that mean we have more heart?
This is getting into the whole “they wanted it more” argument which is absolutely retarded.
Boy it must have looked “retarded” last year, too — from the golf course, while the Phillies were in the playoffs.
When we lose games like the one we lost last night. Remember, this is basically the same team that collapsed last year. So, the question of “heart” is quite valid. Now, it’s up to the players on the Mets to answer it.
The question of heart was never valid, sorry.
We wore down, they didn’t. It has nothing to do with heart.
Re: uniforms
They were watching the Red Sox celebrate just like us, and that’s all that matters, who cares if you’re the 8th loser or the 12th loser?
Spoken like the 12th loser.
Did you celebrate being the 4th loser in 2006? What I thought.
The idea of “lacking heart” is a simple explanation that people use when they don’t understand what really happened, which is expected when a large portion of fans have never and will never play baseball competitively.
OH, of course. You played baseball “competitively” (i.e., high school or some D III college,) and therefore know that “heart” has no place on the field. What a pile of BS. Some players execute in key situations and some don’t. Call it “focus”, call it “heart”, call it whatever — it’s the ability to elevate one’s game in the face of competition, rather than recede. It’s not unique to baseball. And thus far, the Mets don’t have it.
Explain why the Phils execute in the big spots when the Mets don’t.
Fluke?
Act of god?
Random chance?
So let me get this straight, when Bruntlett got the hit off Ayala it was because he had more heart? Not because Ayala missed his location and hung a pitch over the plate?
The Phillies had more heart from the 3rd inning on? Not that they executed better? Not that their pitching performed better?
The Phillies must turn their heart on and off, because they’ve lost 9 out of 14. I’d call that elevating one’s game in the face of competition.
The heart argument is popular because you can’t prove it’s wrong. So whenever something happens that people can’t comprehend, they lean on one team having more heart. It can’t be disproven, so you and every ESPN joker goes to it to explain things they just don’t understand.
Re: Furioso
My answer is in the above post, in case you can’t find it: 9 out of 14.
Ah, but of course, you do understand it. It’s . . . the tautological “Ayala gave up a hit because Bruntlett got a hit” non-explanation. Forgive the rest of the world for trying to look a little deeper.
so your guys explaination is bruntlett got a hit off alaya because bruntlett had more heart than alaya? Please explain heart and why this is a better explanation?
Right on, tmu. One can become so obsessed with reducing the outcome of the game to a series of micro-events that larger patterns become invisible. That’s what’s happening on this thread to the statheads. I foresee a day when they explain a lost season by referring to the random movements of subatomic particles. And who are we to prove them wrong?
But how can any rational human being look at the string of crushing, improbable defeats the Mets have suffered this season and not ask for a more comprehensive, predictive explanation?
Apparently my post didn’t go through, but it essentially said:
Brunlett got the hit because Ayala made a bad pitch, period.
The Phillies came back because Pedro blew. The Mets did not come back because the Phillies bullpen was better then the Mets offense.
It’s not because the Mets have smaller hearts, sorry.
Better than no explanation. . . . Werth’s performance late against the Mets is the result of confidence and focus. Over a number of key at bats, the team with more focus, that expects to get hits, will be able to eexecute better in those situations. Bruntlett went up there expecting to tie the game, I’m sure. He thereby put himself in the best possible position to succeed.
Ryn05, this is ridiculous. No one is saying that Brunlett didn’t have to hit a baseball to tie the game! We’re trying to EXPLAIN rather than just DESCRIBE. Some philosophers migth be pissed, but, whatever.
Re: MealTicket
Jesus Christ, you don’t understand how a bad bullpen gives up runs?
Since you guys love to go to the heart explanation, answer this one question.
9 OUT OF 14 GAMES! Did the Mets have more heart in those 9? Or did the stars magically align and by some act of god the Mets “played harder” or “wanted it more”?
Confidence and focus, there we go, we’re getting somewhere.
Confidence is a large part of it. Why are they confident? Because they’ve beat us late before, and because they know our bullpen is NOT GOOD. You notice how not being good is one of the key factors? When Santana takes the mound they’re not as confident. Why? He’s better then our bullpen. It’s not because he has more heart.
Correction: Our bullpen is NOT GOOD and neither is Pedro at this point in his career.
“No one is saying that Brunlett didn’t have to hit a baseball to tie the game!”
And you essentially are. All of these posts that say “Phillies want it more” they “just have more heart” are not acknowledging that fact.
We are getting somewhere. Part of “being good” is having a mental edge. It helps you “be good” in critical situations.
Getting somewhere? The argument was about heart and how it’s not a valid explanation.
You joining in and adding confidence factor is another argument.
Please answer my point about the Phillies being 5-9 against us, how exactly does that rate on the heart meter? Or confidence for that matter.
My response to “9 of 14″ is that it is similar to the Mets in-game: hot start, then lie down and do nothing late in the clutch.
The Mets were doing well against the Phils last year also before they reeled off 8 in a row.
You dismiss it, but there IS a mental aspect to the game, specifically closing games and seasons out.
Oh I SEE. Now “confidence” and “heart” are different. Do you honestly think that when people talk about “heart” they are not discussing “confidence”, “focus” or “intensity”? OF COURSE they are. But, if you want to thrash a straw man, go right ahead. . . .
Oh, the old “ya, that’s what I meant” argument, you got me.
test
If you want to discuss it further, you’ll have to AIM me, it won’t let me post anything over a few lines. NYMetZ3122
Look, there are mental and emotional elements involved in athletic performance; this is no secret and I don’t think anyone here would dispute it. But you’re suggesting that “heart” and “confidence” are one and the same, that it’s at best a semantic difference, one of terminology only. And I disagree. The notions of “heart” (desire to win, basically) and “confidence” (belief that one WILL win) are two rather different things.
That said, confidence ebbs and flows; it is not a constant thing. And furthermore, it is only one factor governing athletic performance.
I’m all for trying to understand why the Mets have always scored a lot more runs early than late this year, but I refuse to see it as a predictor of ultimate failure. We do not have a perfect team, but neither do the other guys. And that’s the part that people don’t seem to get. After every difficult loss, there is a group of people who immediately become convinced that we will never win again, or that our problems are far worse than anyone else’s. And I simply don’t believe that’s true.
i agree with most of what you said bos. My gripe is when people want to make it seem the mets dont have heart when they lose a game. You want to critique something, find something that is visible and measureable..i.e. burning evans ph with murphy for the sake of knocking out one of charlies bullpen guys, Alaya shaking off schniders req for a slider, Schnieders defense…things again that can be seen and measured. Heart is something that every single major league player has and keeps them showing up for 162 games a year(and for some big bucks but still to put your body through 162 games of punishment is asking alot..you dont get the big bucks unless your really good at this job) The will to compete and win is with every player on this team or else why would they play? Why did they try to strategically get philly players out instead of throwing the ball down the middle for the philly team to tee off at? Bottom line the mets wanted to win just as bad as philly but at the end of the day, phily executed better and thats why they won.
AGAIN.. A bunch of clowns. I thought this freakin circus left town. Ridiculous!!! I am so tired of this clown act. “The Phillies know how to play here, its a band box,” blah, blah, blah. Guess what? Why couldnt the Mets hit the freakin ball like the phils after the fourth? No excuse for this crap. Dont blame the field. Dont blame anyting but the fact that they are a bunch of freakin clowns with no bullpen and no BALLS! STOP USING SHOENWIS, STOP USING SANCHEZ, STOP USING FELICIANO. What they hell do you need, a slap in the face? These gus cannot produce! GEt rid of them! I would rather lose with the young guys, then see this crap night after night! I dont care how much money you have to eat. I for one am done watching this circus. I am done until they decide to eliminate these three from the pen! Stick this team up your rear! Wasted time game after game! If you keep smacking me day after day, I think I would get the picture and DO something to eliminate the pain. Also, am I the only one that is tired of hearing manuel act like this is normal. This happens. This is baseball……Please show some reation. Dont treat us like we are stupid. Yell, scream, throw something….DAmn
dosen’t everybody else see the similarities?
if everyone says the division will be one or lost by one or two games then just look at last night’s lost and the loss on July 22, there are your two games.
they’ll win tonight or maybe not, they’ll probably retake the lead in the standings, maybe not, but they definitely don’t have what it takes to beat either milwaukee or chicago, so who cares.
i have no confidence in this team and hope wright dosen’t win the mvp cause he does NOT deserve it
I wish I had that crystal ball of yours to see who deserves the MVP on August 28th.
Someone not wearing a Mets uni, that’s for sure!
Odds are your right, unfortunately not for the right reasons.
Wright deserved it last year as he was easily running away with the VORP crown.
And Runs Created.
Great, one of these guys. . . .
One of these guys who back up their points with facts.
One of these guys who bootstraps causality onto rote recitation of outcomes?
One of those guys who watched every game and saw Wright having a MVP year, I just have numbers to back me up instead of gut feelings.
VORP!
That’s the collective sound we all made when Schneider couldn’t handle a relay thow yesterday….
It was a short hop, I’d put the blame on Easley for not being able to throw the ball 110 feet when he needed to the most.
You’re taught if you’re going to bounce it, to make it a long bounce, not a short one.
David, why don’t you get a big hit for once? Your season is the prime example of why RBIs are a useless stat. For a guy with 100 RBIs, you’re having a VERY quiet year offensively.
Is is a bad loss to lose after being up 7-0? You bet.
But as I recall, we blew a large lead in Philly that game a couple of months ago when Tatis hit the HR in extras. It can all turn on a dime. Fact is, when a game goes extras (particularly after the 10th or 11th innings), it’s a crapshoot.
Here is what is going to happen tonight. Mets get 4 runs off on Kendrick, and Santana pitches 7 strong, giving up 3 runs (2 earned.) The Mets tack on a run as do the Phillies, but we sweat it out and win 5-4 (I don’t know who will pitch the last 2 innings for us– probably Ayala and Feliciano…)
did any manual haters comment on how he left tatis in Left field instead of bringing in chavez for defense?
what are your thoughts on that strategic move?
manual was preparing for extras…
he’s been bad at ‘preparing for extras’ in the past, burning through the bullpen early.
He pinch hit two guys in one spot in one inning. that’s not preparing.
That double switch would’ve actually negated the need for a pinch hitter longer. Endy’s gotten it done before anyway.
Taking out Stokes was horrible. His stuff was good and his breaking pitches looked nasty. Then not only did he take him out, as you point out he used up two pinch hitters. Horrible!
cant argue with you there
again their 1 big swing mentality has got to change
Shouldn’t the title be “Seven Run lead with 17 outs to get”?
What’s scary about this loss is that it’s a perfect example of their weaknesses all year long: score early, bats go to sleep, bullpen coughs it up. If this was the exception rather than the rule, it would be easier to shrug off. What about that stat they posted last night?! In innings 1-3 the Mets are +122 runs vs. competition; inns. 4-6, +2 runs; inns. 7-9 -47 runs!!! That’s just sick.
“If this was the exception rather than the rule, it would be easier to shrug off”.
I think deep down inside every Mets Fan feels the same way.
Even the Great 1986 Juggernaut and All the Great teams in the past and present have loses like the Mets had last night. But like you said, these are the exceptions rather than the rule for Good, Champion caliber teams.
Unfortunately, I bet there isn’t ONE Fan on here that even when they were up by 7-0 last night, didn’t feel uncomfortable and had that nagging, sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach that some how the Mets could blow this one.
That’s the point. Trust me; if we as fans have come to expect this, the players have come to expect it also, they’re human just like us.
I was hoping for a split anyway, but I wanted them to win the first game so there would be less pressure. Last night killed me, but a win tonight will start the healing.