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Jose Reyes is now tied with Mookie Wilson for the most stolen bases in team history.
By the way, Reyes took over the club record for triples from Wilson on July 20.
Reyes is on pace to hit roughly .300, with 15 home runs, 70 RBI, 15 triples, 40 doubles, 115 runs scored and 60 stolen bases.
As you may recall from 2006, the last shortstop to hit .300 with 50 stolen bases, 20 doubles, 15 triples and 10 home runs was Honus Wagner in 1908 for the Pirates.
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HOT!
Needs to say, 200H instead of .300 or you need to include Juan Samuel 1984, which shouldn’t be in the same league because he had an OBP of .307.
And obviously needs to have Reyes 2006.
Wagner’s 1908–100 years ago–201H, 100R, 53SB, 39 2B, 19 3B, 10HR, 108RBI, 967 OPS.
MVP
Doesn’t he already have 18 triples?
Uh…Reyes already has 18 triples. He needs 3 more to tie the Met record of 21. (I believe Lance Johnson holds the Met record).
and he is on PACE for that…. :)
You’re right. Lance Johnson established the Mets record for triples in a single season back in 1996 with 21. Johnson also is the only Met to record 200 hits in a season, which he did in ‘96, with 227. Let’s hope Jose reaches the 200 platueau.
whats he at right now with hits? does he still lead the NL with hits?
Sorry I was lazy…I looked it up.
98 Runs..181 hits…13 HR..56 RBI..58 BB..47 SB ….305avg
on pace for 209.
i feel like we’re the only people talking about him for MVP too…the thing is, we got 2 other LEGITIMATE mvp candidates on the team in wright and delgado…and i remember the yankees having that “problem” a few years back and no one from their WS team won the mvp
in all honesty, i can care less, just win a WS MVP!!! thats waht counts
Yea I don’t care either…WS MVP would be ideal…
No Met will win if we dont make the playoffs simple as that. IF we do make it, then I think Reyes and Delgado will have good chances, but theres always that chance that Reyes, Wright, and Delgado could split many votes and thus all lose.
that’s what happened in ‘06, but with Beltran thrown in there too.
Just like ‘06, with Beltran in the mix
Except if Delgado wins WS MVP, we lose $4mil
Yeah, too many MVP candidates is a good problem to have. However, this might cause issues during our home stand. Who does the crowd start up an MVP chant for? Reyes? Delgado? Possibly Wright? Maybe all three?
let’s give EVERYONE an MVP chant…
…well, everyone but Luis Castillo
ala 1988 when strawberry and mcreynolds split ny media votes and gibson took it.
Guess which one of these lines won the MVP?
OPS .860, 25HR, 76RBI, 31SB, 52XBH
OPS .911, 39HR, 101RBI, 29SB, 69XBH
OPS. .832, 27HR, 99RBI, 21 for 21 SB, 59 XBH
MVP!! but lets make sure we get to the playoffs and into that World Series. Can’t wait for this weekend’s games!!
Uh, Matt, how can Jose Reyes be on pace to hit 15 triples when yesterday he established a new career high for a single season with 18?
Not to insult you, Matt, as I love the site, but seriously, how carefully do you edit your topics before you post them?
I’ve seen lots of grammatical and spelling errors — which, though very annoying to me, I can understand because of the haste in posting something — but factual ones like this strain credibility.
well a lot of them have been previously edited when they were originally posted. Matt likes to cut and paste tidbits from previous posts. And thats cool, but I agree, just a quick check would be cool.
The Internet: Serious Business
Ha, seriously. Straining the credibility of a blog? Oh noes!
Hey Hey no criticizing of matt. After all he is the almighty creator of this wonderful site. Better watch out Matt defenders will be jumping all over you soon.
Seriously I agree grammar and spelling issues are fine with me I can pick out 20 everyday in the newspaper but the facts need to be correct I don’t care how fast posts have to go up.
I agree. Not only is the triples number wrong as has been noted, but he cannot be “on pace” to hit .300 when he’s hitting .305. Because .305 is an average, he’s on pace to hit .305.
Math wasn’t your thing, Matt, was it?
i don’t see why there’s a “haste” in posting something like this. breaking news, sure. but for this kind of post, take 30 seconds and skim it over.
Spell Check!
hopefully chrome will help here as browersers start to get a little more innovative and can add more features like those in word and excel…
matt means those are the plateaus he will reach, like people talk about 30-30 seasons when a guy has 34 homers and 31 stolen bases. it doesnt necessarily means he has exactly 30-30
oh wait, he’s still wrong. ha
Reyes leads all Mets in runs created. Really, a legitimate argument can be made that he as well as Wright, Beltran and Delgado all deserve serious consideration for MVP, though I would have a hard time voting for a player who totally disappeared the first half of the season.
We should just be grateful that they have so many young players producing MVP-type seasons at the same time.
not that its a big deal but reyes and wright are both tied in runs created at 110
I used ESPN’s stats. As of today, they list Jose with 109.1 RC, and Wright with 106.3. So either they’re using a different formula than your source, or their stats are not current.
What’s your source?
Beltran leads all Mets in Win Shares. Personally, I think Win Shares are the most signifiant stat. So he deserves serious MVP consideration too.
I don’t like the way Win Shares account for defense.
I love the offensive component of Win Shares, though.
Because Win Shares incorporates defense is precisely why I like this stat above all others. How can one discount defense as a component to winning?
One an criticize Win Shares because of the type of defensive stats they incorporate, but otherwise it’s much better than a purely offensive stat, IMO.
“Once can criticize … “
“One can criticize …”
Ugh, need more coffee.
The problem with Defensive Win Shares is that it is iargely based on chances. Since we have a flyball staff, it inflates Beltran’s defensive value relative to Wright and Reyes.
Particularly Reyes, who plays the most skilled defensive position on the field, thereby he really has more value defensively than Beltran.
baseballreference.com
reyes FRAA this year is like -1. it’s not like he’s some great defender who’s getting screwed by a formula. he’s got a great arm and pretty good range. omar vizquel he is not. beltran, on the other hand, has one of the best combinations of range/skill at getting a read off the bat/arm of this generation.
Is Reyes really below average?
You know how shaky defensive stats are.
Danny, as I said, one can quibble with the defensive stats used in Win Shares, but using them is much better than nothing. IMO, it gives a much much better estimation of a player’s overall worth than simply using something like OPS or VORP.
Further, while chances play into the calculation of Win Shares, attempts are made to mitigate the impact of them on the results. Here’s what The Hardball Times says about the defensive component of Win Shares:
“Fielding stats are adjusted for lefthanded and righthanded pitchers, as well as groundball and flyball pitching staffs. So Win Shares evens out the opportunities presented to fielders on the left side of the field vs. the right side, as well as infielders vs. outfielders.”
There is no perfect stat. But I think Win Shares is better than most.
hjhjhjhjhj … couldn’t you think up a better name? LOL.
Baseballreference.com does not spell out their formula the way ESPN does, so I can’t say whether or not their formula is better or worse.
But as-suming it’s at least as good as ESPN’s formula, the fact that Reyes has as many RCs as Wright, says he deserves at least equal consideration for MVP. Interestingly, the two have the same number of Win Shares.
Since we have a flyball staff, it inflates Beltran’s defensive value relative to Wright and Reyes.
So Danny, to follow up on my point, that statement is incorrect since Win Shares attempts to compensate for the type of pitcher on the mound.
A centerfielder cannot logically be twice as valuable defensively as a shortstop. It’s an easier position to play.
Who said a centerfielder is “twice as valuable defensively” as a shortstop?
Defensive Win Shares does for Beltran and Reyes
No, it does not.
I”m sorry, it’s only a 5 to 3 instead of 6 to 3 advantage.
I have a philosophical disagreement with the way that defense is accounted for sabremetrically.
Also, I’m not sure that Win Shares actually “evens out’” the chances as they claim. That’s kind of hard to do when you are normalizing defensive contribution. And they are very secretive with their formula.
Whether it’s 5 to 3 or 6 to 3, Win Shares is NOT saying that a centerfielder is intrinsically more valuable defensively than a shortstop.
The ratio merely says that Beltran’s defensive achievements this year relative to the average centerfielder are greater than Reyes’ defensive achievements relative to an average shortstop. And if you look at various defensive stats, you will see they bear that out. Not only does Reyes lag this year in ZR and RZR, but he has a high number of errors on the year. Beltran, once again, is near the top in most defensive metrics.
Interestingly, Wright has the highest RZR and OOZ scores for any thirdbaseman in the NL. His gold glove in 2007 is well deserved and he should win it again this year. The suggestions by some that he should move to first are ludicrous.
There is always a problem with the way defense is calculated. It’s the hardest stat to quantify. But having said that, I think RZR, ZR and OOZ do a fine job of telling you who the top performers are every year at their position.
Moreover, as I said, having a defensive component to a component stat like Win Shares is infinitely better than having none at all.
As for mitigating the chances, they do that based on league average stats. Nothing is totally even or fair. or perfect when it comes to stats. But it’s better than having none and/or being in the dark like someone like Murray Cha-ss.
I’m a WARP man, myself. just throwing that into the mix.
You’re WARPed, man. :smile:
Does WARP incorporate defense? If not, I think Win Shares is superior.
I disagree philosophically with the way defense is sabremetrically allocated though. There’s a reason they take bad, but athletic shortstops and move them to CF.
Is Albert Pujols, as a Gold Glove 1B, anywhere near as valuable as Jose Reyes defensively because he is better than his other defensively challenged peers at 1B? Statistically as we recognize it now, they are close. But philosophically, it is a landslide. He’s at first base because he is the worst defensive player on his own team and cannot play another defensive position.
Like I said, I have a philosophical disagreement with the way we process value on defense. You get extra points from me for playing the harder defensive positions.
It doesn’t get harder than SS. Switch positions for Reyes and Beltran and see who would maintain their defensive value.
WARP does incorporate defense as well.
And it’s been a good discussion but I have to jump on the road.
Just know that I respect your point, but I’m a stickler for how defense is viewed.
Probably because I played SS in college…
(Full disclosure… haha)
Wow you guys are geeks…After reading that crap I think I hate baseball now.
It’s a team sport last time I watched.
“better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than open you mouth and be confirmed as one.”
There’s a reason they take bad, but athletic shortstops and move them to CF.
And there’s a difference between talent-potential and execution. You can be the most talented player on the field athletically, but if you don’t perform well at your position, then you shouldn’t be rewarded. Anyone who watches the Mets knows how much Reyes struggled defensively the first half of the year. His error totals are high, and they are legitimate errors. His ZR and RZR totals also rank low.
Is Albert Pujols, as a Gold Glove 1B, anywhere near as valuable as Jose Reyes defensively because he is better than his other defensively challenged peers at 1B? Statistically as we recognize it now, they are
close.
Huh? Pujols has 1.8 defensive Win Shares. Reyes has 3.3. I don’t call that close. And while it may take more athletic skill to field at SS, you shouldn’t overlook what it takes to play a good first base. But the bottom line is execution.
It doesn’t get harder than SS. Switch positions for Reyes and Beltran and see who would maintain their defensive value.
A-Rod used to be a gold glove SS. Yet he’s never been able to catch fly balls for beans. He’d probably be worse than Cedeno in CF. You can’t make generalizations.
Probably because I played SS in college…
Which is why you lack objectivity! :smile:
read hardball times article on win shares
I was kinda hoping he’d make it to 20 homers but I can’t complain with what he’s been doing in the least bit.
Keith and Gary said something interesting yesterday: that very few Mets have spent the bulk of their career here — especially their best days — with exception of Seaver and Kranepool. Even our faves (Piazza, Hernandez) were brought in late in their games. Wouldn’t it be great if we retain both Wright and Reyes as home-grown heroes for all of their best years to come? Isn’t that alone worth something? Just thinking out loud.
they could be our version of Bagwell and Biggio. I would have no complaints about that…
Except better.
It’s a little early to make that claim, Danny…we’re talking about a guy with a .300 career average and 1,500 RBI and another one with 3,000+ hits, almost 700 doubles and 1,800+ runs scored. As good as they are, Wright and Reyes need to do what they’re doing for a long time to get to those numbers. Not that they can’t, they just haven’t yet.
Bagwell was roided to his gills.
Biggio was a fine player.
I think Reyes/Wright are a good bet to be better.
hahah we had better keep them around. The one guy I am apprehensive about is Pelf, as he is a Boras guy.
we control him for four more years….not too worried about him
Boras seems to be losing a little bit of his mojo. Have you guys heard about this Pedro Alvarez kid that the Pirates drafted? He signed, but Boras wants more money so he’s got the kid refusing to report to the minors and is claiming that the Pirates offer was signed after the deadline so it doesn’t count. In retaliation, MLB is forcing another Boras client (Hochevar, the Royals pick) to sit out while the matter is being disputed. I have a feeling this whole thing is gonna backfire on Boras and diminish his reputation even more, which already started with the ARod fiasco.
I just hope we can afford both of them…I think you pay them whatever they want to keep em here…(i.e. Jeter)
agreed. They deserve it. It will be heartbreaking if this team lets either of them go. If Pelfrey keeps at his pace he will too need to be signed. Boras or not I hope Pelf realizes that NY is great place to thrive and will tell boras f u
I love how we are now hoping Pelfrey sticks around in the long haul…this just shows how big of a turnaround he has been this year. We haven’t had a homegrown successful starter in a long time (except for that kid in Tampa)…feels great.
Even Seaver played here for “only” 11 seasons which would be a lot had he not pitched a total of 20.
I’d love a Bagwell or Biggio -type career Met. Wright and Reyes it is. (As long as Wright gives up the girlfriend and starts to pay attention at the plate again.)
It would be my saddest day as a Mets fan if Reyes or Wright ever wear another jersey.
It feels like it was just yesterday when this 19 year old wiz at SS debuted for us. bringing our horrible team some energy and spunk. And when we brought up this unreal talent at 3B mid-season to replace Wiggy. I remember being so excited watching his first game. I actually felt that way about Milledge and Gomez…damn that hype machine.
you know, Milledge leads the Nats in homers, so maybe the hype was real*
*of course, he is leading the Nats with 13, which is so ridiculously pathetic I almost don’t want to make fun of it
Milledge is beginning, I think to get it together. He may never be a superstar, but I believe he’ll be a pretty darn good player.
Gomez doesn’t know that you’re supposed to get on base in this game. I admire his skills, but he is clueless when it come to approach.
I don’t know why, but all of my comments are getting chewed up by this East German post censor.
Anyway, in sum, Milledge is developing (as expected) and we shoudl expect a vwery tough series in Washington later this month.
I’ve had many sad days whenever Wright comes up to bat in late innings with men in scoring position…. and strikes out.
i think the most compelling thing about Reyes, his unfortunate 2007 August and September not withstanding, is when you look at 2006 and 2008…where as his OBP and SLG are nearly identical, in 2006 he was in total only better than the league average by 15% he is now better by 25%, the effect of drug testing is interesting at that while Reyes is basically the same player the league on a whole is 10% worse.
mookie for the hall of fame. Thats all I got to say.
when they build a hall of fame for platoon outfielders, Mookie’s gonna be the first inductee
I love Jose and think he is a stalwart of this team and belongs on its list of great players to spend the better part of their careers with us.
That said….Can you not potenially see a time where Murphy is in his 3rd year at 2b knocking in 100 rbi with 18 – 20 dingers. Wright giving us another MVP type season and we have some new powerhouse in LF (Fmart maybe), Church and Beltran in their final year of their contract and a certain Wilmer Flores just shredding AA ball with like 25 hrs and 100 rbi?
I can forsee the possibility somewhere down the line where Reyes can be used to get a young Lincecum type ace in return for Jose where Flores then steps in as the SS of the future. Not advocating it but I can see it happen
Flores is less likely to remain a shortstop, he is only 17 and he already has a big frame that is only going to fill out more, it is far more likely that he will move to a corner outfield or infield position…
and btw Reyes is not going to get a Lincecum type away from the Giants.
Flores ain’t sticking at short.
Flores is going to be too big for SS.
I think I have canned food older than Wilmer Flores.
Dinner at your place!
I think the MVP award is so bogus. It has come to mean the best offense player on a winning team. MVP = Most Valuable Player. It should mean that!
Too many good offensive players on a team shouldn’t dilute your chance of winning the award! My hope… MVP really become a Most Valuable Player award. There should be ONE candidate from each team. The one that is most instrumental to the success of that team. The MVP winner of the league should be the one player that helps his team more than anyone else from the previous mentioned pool of candidates.
In fairness to Honus Wagner, if he was playing today he would have like 35-40 home runs a season.
Although he would also be super old, so who knows.
sorry for double post…
Needs to say, 200H instead of .300 or you need to include Juan Samuel 1984, which shouldn’t be in the same league because he had an OBP of .307.
And obviously needs to have Reyes 2006.
Wagner’s 1908–100 years ago–201H, 100R, 53SB, 39 2B, 19 3B, 10HR, 108RBI, 967 OPS.
double post again… lost mine above.
ala 1988 when strawberry and mcreynolds split ny media votes and gibson took it.
Guess which one of these lines won the MVP?
OPS .860, 25HR, 76RBI, 31SB, 52XBH
OPS .911, 39HR, 101RBI, 29SB, 69XBH
OPS. .832, 27HR, 99RBI, 21 for 21 SB, 59 XBH
(Comments wont nest below this level)
15 triples? Doesn’t he already have 18? Meaning he would be on pace to hit 20 or so?