According to Ted Berg of SNY, citing a ‘team official,’ Billy Wagner will miss the rest of the year with a tear of his flexor pronator and MCL in his left elbow.
He will have surgery as soon as this weekend, and could be out for up to one year.
Thankfully, as I noted this morning, Luis Ayala is 5 for 6 in save opportunities with a 2.70 ERA in 10 appearances for the Mets.
It’s too early for this, but I have to think this will now bring in an intense discussion among fans, this off-season, about signing Francisco Rodriguez, or trading for A’s RHP Huston Street, among a host of other options.
At any rate, as for this season, according to a poll from this morning on MetsBlog.com, 80 percent of the more-than 2,600 voters said they would choose Ayala to be the team’s closer in place of Wagner.
Also, in a report for Newsday, David Lennon recently wrote, “John Maine still has an outside chance of returning this season, perhaps in a bullpen role.”
Lastly, the Mets bullpen has not allowed an earned run during their last seven appearances – spanning 26.2 innings.
By the way, what on Earth is a flexor pronator? I knew I should have paid more attention in biology class.
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Dr. Andrews?
Its gotta be either him or altchek who seems to do a lot of mets surgeries
Also, the floxor pronator is a group of muscles in the forearm. the pronator teres along with the pronator quadratus, serve to turn the forearm so that your palm faces downward.
K-Rod.
Yes, K-Rod, please. No brainer.
this is the no-brainer of all no-brainers.
The decision is so easy . . . a caveman could make it.
(Sorry–I had to.)
Hello K-Rod !!
Can I just ask, why are we going to throw 50-60 million at K-Rod when we might have a stronger need at SP? Ollie will need 40-60 to resign him, and if we go after Sheets or Sabathia, it would require around an 80 mil and 100mil contract respectively.
We don’t know how healthy Maine will be next season, which leaves Santana and Pelfrey. There is no guarantee that Niese will be major league ready, and I doubt the team will re-sign Pedro.
I know Wilpon has opened the wallet in recent years, but spending $170 mil for a closer and a starter doesn’t seem very likely.
We HAVE to resign OP. The way he pitches for us in big games, especially against the Phillies and Yankees, makes him well worth the money its going to take to resign him.
agreed…100%
i think the big tickets this season will be OP and K-Rod.
we can go with youth in the OF, with Evans/Murphy/perhaps F-Mart late in the season.
Well I guess that puts us in the market for a closer now. If I’m not mistaken, doesn’t Wagners contract run through the end of next year?
Yep, through next season.
You are correct. Billy will get paid for simply rehabbing.
But I think Wags gets paid through insurance since he will be on the DL for almost all of next season.
thats worth investigating as it affects the budget for next year.
I remember some issues with insuring pitching contracts over 3 years..
im not surprised, but now that its official its a downer
out for a year as in he will miss next year, too? damn. we will need a real closer in the off season.
Well, no surprise but was hoping against hope….
Yea…I think we would be stronger with him,, but oh well…Just curious if this was a new development or they knew this all along and were hoping he could pull it out.
ALso, it is a plus that we havebeen playing w/ o him for almost a month now. It could be worse if he had been with us and then got shut down and we would have to scramble this late.
He has said that he will retire after his current contract. I wonder if that still holds true. He has made a living off of throwing the ball by hitters. Serious elbow surgery could knock some velocity off his pitches and make him less effective even if he does intend to attempt a come back.
I am a big fan of Billy’s and wish him nothing but the best. He will certainly be missed in this pennant run. I will guarantee this though. He will be there with his teammates for an October run (if they hopefully get there).
i dont know if anyone said this…but
K-Rod
ouch!
This is the risk in signing relief pitchers to 4 year contracts (especially flamethrowing lefties in their mid 30s). I still believe we made the right move in bringing in Billy. Tough call on K. Rod. Let’s see what Kunz can do.
Giving Wagner the 4 years was the right thing to do. I think it’s always a good risk to give the better relievers and closers multi-year contracts … and that includes Bradford.
The important point is that at the time Wagner was given the contract , he was still pitching at an elite level and did NOT have an extensive injury history, especially a recent one. It was a worthwhile risk.
Actually, Wagner had missed a good chunk of the 2000 season with a similar elbow issue, or it could have been rotator cuff, I don’t remember.
Ironically, the guy with no history of arm trouble (Ryan) ended up blowing out his arm 1 year later.
That was 5 years prior to the contract. I don’t consider that recent or significant at all.
Both Ryan and Wagner were good risks IMO.
I would avoid multi-year contracts if their injury history was extensive and/or recent. Alou and El Duque fall under that category, in addition to being high risks simply due to age.
I’m not in the camp that wants to sign K-Rod because of this and he is going to get at the very least 4 years in a deal this off season. However, I don’t think Kunz will be the answer next season.
Agree about Kunz. I am not impressed with him. I sense he’ll have a career like Craig Hansen’s, though I hope I’m wrong.
K-Rod is 11 years younger than Wagner. I’d be all for giving him a 4 year deal.
exactly. Krod is not at Wagners age. I would sign Billy Wagner 11 yrs ago for a 4 year deal, why not again.
k-rod is well worth the 4 or 5 years. closer will be locked up (with a great one, at that), for a long time.
kunz isn’t ready.
Is anyone really surprised by this? Any time you hear “strain” or “forearm” it usual is a ligament tear.
I guess this means we are in search of a new closer next year.
But before you say K-Rod remember that he’ll want $15M per year and he already is losing his once 96 mph fastbal, which is now 93 mph.
he has lost velocity..He has 30 walks to 70 k’s…not very good for a closer. but he has only given up 4 hr’s all year with 17 ER in 61 IP….Wagner had given up 12 ER in 47 IP (also with 4 HR) Not very different paces.
People, for God’s sakes, K-Rod is NOT the answer.
Then enlighten us Steve from DC..Who IS the answer?!
Did you really think i would have the answer? I’m just basing my decision regarding K-Rod on previous athletes who’s completed a phenomenal season recording saves. All their numbers -without exception- went declined in the subsequent seasons after setting the record.
If I had to haphazard a guess, I’d say go by committee, and when necessary, Ayala.
you want to continue this circus for another year?
Name the last World Series winning club that went closer by committee?
Name the last division winner.
Red Sox (2)- Papelbon
Cardinals – Wainwright
White Sox – Jenks
Marlins – i forgot
Angels – K-ROD
This guy has been there and won in the post season. Gotta get him. Omar will do it too.
Steve, that’s true about closers bumping up their Saves total one year going into a tailspin in subsequent seasons.
With K-Rod, you have to consider that his innings pitched hasn’t increased dramatically. His lower K ratio doesn’t scare me either since the guy has reinvented his pitching style. He has gone from a strikeout pitcher to a groundball machine. The K-Rod has developed a nasty change-up and uses it as his out pitch.
Much like Johan realized he had to pitch to contact more so he could go deeper into games with less pitches, thus prolonging his career, K-Rod made the same adjustments. Strikeouts are great, but I would rather have a pitcher who only needs to go to the strikeout well when he needs to.
Sign K-Rod!
Marlins closer: none other than Mr. Braden Looper
The Marlins stopper that postseason was Dontrelle Willis or Carl Pavano… whichever one was available that day… and Looper helped a little too.
Thats what earned Looper his Mets contract.
Look I do understand the idea that going out and giving a 4 year however many million dollar deal to a closer coming off this kind of year isn’t a no brainer. It’s not – but to those arguing against going after K-rod – like Steve in DC – do you want more of the same?
Sure, since Billy’s gone down the record has bee ngood – but I think most of us would rather have him here for September and beyond, no?
Those people who don’t want to go get K-rod, who don’t want to invest money in a closer like that – these are the same people who will be again calling for Omar’s head next season when the bullpen blows 7 games in a row, and the mere thought of Ayala being the closer for a full season induces vomit. The SP will have holes with Oliver’s pending free agency, but the fact is this team needs bullpen help badly and with Wagner out for so long, I think they should go after KRod.
Exactly…
K-Rod has a very herky jerky throwing motion and has already had scares with his elbow. Decreased velocity is a bad sign for a 26 year old.
…and vlad had a bad back.
k-rod, citifield = happy mets fans.
wagner is out next year too…geez.
And so, I’m afraid, concludes the Billy Wagner era for our Mets. I am sad about this. Loved his intensity and comments despite his BSs.
Wonder if we will ever see him pitch in a real game again as a Met.
Yeah, it is kinda sad. It’s probably the end of his career. If he comes back, he won’t be the same guy.
He was a great fit for NY because of his personality, and his accountability. He’d be the first guy to say to the media “I sucked, no excuses.”
It’s the start of a new era, either K-Rod, who is due for his own elbow injury, or Kunz, who might not be ML ready yet. Tough call in the offseason here.
I hope it isn’t the end of his career. But as a guy who lived and died with his fastball…this hurts.
third most saves in met uniform…
not unexpected… but still a blow.
Forget K-Rod, sign Sabathia and inform John Maine of his new role as closer when he’s healthy.
that is actually a tremndous idea…however, u think maine can close??? And to the people saying “kunz kunz kunz” i like him too but let’s see how he does as a set up guy or something first
Sabitha’s knees will give out faster than Billy’s elbow did. The guy is a long-term DL case waiting to happen.
I’m thinking back to Bartolo Colon when he was in his prime. You’ll get a few great years out of CC, but he’s gonna want 7 yrs. I dont think we give out two 7 year deals to SP…don’t see it.
He seems like the perfect replacement for the Yankees Carl Pavano ‘role’ ;)
we’ll keep Ollie Perez, thank you.
Maine to the pen isnt a bad idea, but then you need something after Santana, Pelfrey, and Perez
Maine is more valuable as a SP until you bring in a replacement better than he is.
Na keep maine in the SP. I doubt the mets will want to hand another sanatana like deal to sabathia.
Investing more than $200 million to 2 starting pitchers isn’t smart, especially when one of them is fat. No way to spin it or make some buffet line joke about it – Sabathia is fat, he’s dominant right now but in 3 years in the middle of his huge contract, I can easily easily see lots of DL time.
Billy said Kunz probably would take his job; maybe but that’s not gonna happen overnight.
He also said Heilman could do it.
Thanks Billy… you had one of the best tenures of any Mets closer i can remember. You will be missed.
So, I guess we sign a closer and then maybe we get lucky an Billy can join us NEXT September as a setup man. Ideally, I wanted Wags as a setup next year anyways, so maybe we can get lucky and he can be that role when it counts next year…
Get Krod, or trade for a Soria, Putz, or (one can dream) Nathan
I’ve seen Soria attempt like 5 saves vs. the Yanks and blow like 3 of them. Talk about melting in a big spot.
I would rather give the closers job to Burgos than trade for Burgos version two…
with all the young talent some team gave the Twins last winter they should be able to afford to resign Nathan. But one can dream. It would make watching Mets games kinda weird for me…
Maybe so, but he’s 20 times the best relief pitcher the Mets have.
Hey, he did it before, why doesn’t he just start throwing right handed again…would that be awsome if he could?
That sucks. did i read somewhere that he was thinking about retirement after his mets contract? Do you think he is done for good? anyway.. i agree we need K-Rod..
Also – what is the deal with the papajohns add in the middle of the blog. lol… what is this all coming too
what, you don’t like Papa Johns, or Soverign, or iO?
If my copy of MLB Power Pros is an indication by 2009 the Mets should be replacing Perez with Garland, resigning Pedro and having either Putz or Harden as the closer.
What is MLB Power Pros?
By far the best baseball video game since RBI Baseball.
Well, it looks like Heilman will be ready to step up and take on closer duties next year.
I keed. I keed.
It does go to show that there’s no more precarious position in baseball than closer. If you go back to even the beginning of last year, I bet you’ll find that more than half the teams have a different closer now. Probably more like 2/3.
k-rod: 4 years, $60 million
then re-sign omar.
Huston Street or Brian Fuentes might be the guys the Mets try. Both should come cheaper than K-Rod. Even though Street costs prospects.
I actually might rather go that way and then save some money for another starter and bat for LF.
Well i believe based on the successes of tatis/murphy/evans, we will be seeing that trio manning LF for next season. I agree money must be spent refilling the SP vacancies and bullpen help. We could use a Krod for many years to come. Rumors are we might be seeing the end in castillo….if there is any truth to that we might be in the market for 2b also.
ya his name is Daniel Murphy
it would be nice but he does not have alot of experiance playing 2b. Even though he will be playing for the fall league as a 2b no way to know how effective he will be. Like i said would be great…but im sure the mets would be leaning more toward odog
If Dan Uggla can get away with playing 2B, anybody can.
Well they are grooming Murph to play 2b
Yea i know but i doubt they want to rely on only what 20 something games in the minors and a fall league as experiance for a starting job at 2b.
k-rod wears #57 and is from venezuela.
hmmmmm.
How about Ervin Santana, also from Venezuela, who changed his name from Johan
:) i was inferring that he may come to the mets b/c he’s a santana fan
I guess it is back to picking up after the Alpacas Billy…you will be missed!
listen, this obviously is bad news and wagner is better than most closers in the league.
the only saving grace the mets have is the new found chemistry/usage of the bullpen the past few weeks
can the BP meltdown in a game??
yes of course it still can. So could the phillies (look at the nats series b4 this weekend) and the BP had its meltdowns with Mr. wagner (unsure if the injury was a huge issue at the time).
Stoles and Ayala have been huge and have stepped up.
I am more concerned when the team scores a few runs in the 1st 2 innings then goes on auto-pilot. Thats what scares me and that crap lets other teams hang around longer than they should.
true and they have been working on scoring throughout the game including late in the game. I do hate the autopilot mode they get into sometimes.
Closer may be one of the most over-rated positions in baseball. I would not sign any closer to a $10+ mill/per season contract. Use the money on starting pitching.
i’m tempted to agree with you
I like the Sabathia signing and Maine to closer….
in today’s game the bullpen is too important to ignore closer. who’s going to close or even pitch the 8th inning next year?
santana, pelfrey, maine at the top of the rotation next year is fine. it’s not like the mets can’t afford k-rod and a starter. they sold over 4 million tickets this year and are going into citifield. they also have the cash cow: sny
maybe but as we have seen THIS year especially…not everyone has the mentality to close a game.
I totally agree. There has to be someone, amongst all those arms we piled up, and out there in general, who can throw strikes for three outs 60 or so times a year. But hey, it’s not my money.
except the last two years the bullpen has killed the mets and nobody has stepped up. why go cheap on a closer when they’re so hard to find and the mets a very, very wealthy?
after I posted, I thought more about my last sentence. So yeah, why not. If they’re willing to pay the money, and if that monetary commitment doesn’t limit anything else they might need/want to do over the life of the contract, screw it, spend that cash. you’re totally right, we have lots of it. Sometimes I forget that these things are context specific.
man, I’m a pushover.
i half agree with you
i think its more psycological in regards to the team thinking and knowing they have a steady and known ‘closer’
yup, this past month plus as a Mets fan is a perfect example that you dont need a closer.
Lets have that tragicomedy happening all year next year.
(thanks to whomever it was who coined ‘tragicomedy’ as a description of the Mets pen. I’ve been using it regurally. Well done!)
Wow…this is terrible…Pedro, Duaner and Duque in ‘06, Maine and Wagner this year…in 12 years of playoffs, did this ever happen to the Yankees with Rivera, did it ever happen in 15 years to the Braves with Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine? Nope, but of course it does to the Mets…we need new doctors…or younger players
id tend to agree with the latter…It is crazy though the injury plague on the mets..perhaps conditioning coaches or something but it seems every year when there can be a potential playoff berth, a key person gets hurt.
None of these injures are of the tragic sort. Anyone that is surprised at Wagner, Pedro, Duque, Alou getting hurt isn’t really paying attention.
As a sidenote, when do we get a picture on this site of Giuseppe Franco eating Papa John’s pizza while talking to a Gekko about car insurance?????
Now, I’m not saying that C.C. to the Mets and Maine to be the closer is not a great idea, but keep in mind two things:
1) The Yankees will outbid everybody for C.C.
2) Maine has a tendency to go on foul ball marathons with hitter. He’s not exactly a 1-2-3 kind of guy.
Also, the Brewers are overusing him because they don’t care how many innings or pitches he throws because they don’t intend to resign him.
agreed and thats why i think the mets should leave maine in the SP role and persue krod. Forget CC..
CC will not be a MEt unless he took a paycut, and why would he?
We will not dish out another 7 years to a SP…it wont happen.
And if we wanted to, I hope we wouldn’t. I don’t want CC for 7 yrs. He wont play all 7 of those years.
Wagner is probably going to retire now, since he said he won’t pitch beyond next year. If he does indeed miss the one full year, it’s too bad, because I’m sure he wouldn’t want to go out like this.
Anyway, since K-Rod will be awfully costly, our best bet is to pursue Fuentes and spent the most money on starting pitching,,, resign Oliver Perez and maybe go after someone like Jon Garland.
We got the money to spend on Krod and still have enough to persue 2 SP spots. I believe we would have to trade for fuentes and street. I think our best bet would be to sign Krod (younger and has shown he can close).
The Wilpon’s may have the money, but I think it unreasonable to believe that they’re gonna give K-Rod the money he’ll want and then go after 2 SP’s. Fuentes will be a Free Agent and will cost considerably less than K-Rod. It would be wiser in my estimation to go after him and then use the remaining money to plug other holes.
Why would it be unreasonable? Fuentes is 33..what kind of deal would he want…
Meanwhile Krod has double the amount of saves as fuentes and hes 26….
It would be nice to see if we can bring both in but i think they should make a play for krod first…if it seems crazy then i guess fuentes would be a good fallback option. 2 SP that we would be bringing in would be a good #2 guy and hopefully sign perez back.
Santana
#2
Maine
Pelf
Perez(hopefully)
of course the rotation will not be in this order.
If Pelfrey is 2, Ollie is 3, Maine is 4, and Niese could be 5… if that’s the case, then we should go all in for K-Rod. If they’re not gonna spend money on an SP besides Ollie, then it makes all the sense in the world to pursue K-Rod.
i dont think niese will be ready for next year honestly. I do think though we have enough money to persue 2 sp and krod imo.
I have heard from a lot of talk radio and tv people over the past several months citing ’sources” as saying Maine is an ideal closer. Aside from his makeup and attitude, which seem perfect for the role, his tendency to work high pitch counts due to countless foul balls makes him ideal, seeing as he may be a 6 inning pitcher with the high pitch counts. K rod is probably going to be demanding well over 10M per year for 5 years…alot to give a guy with that small body, violent windup, and who scouts are saying has already lost some of his fastball. I’d much rather go after a starter with that money, let maine try it for the year, and if it doesn’t work for some reason move maine back to the rotation for 2010.
Scouts also said that we had zero prospects in the minor leagues and that Santana has lost some off of his fastball. While the second point may be correct, the results are still there.
Control and changing speeds.
FYI…Flexor Pronator is actually a group of muscles in the forearm….Gotta love Google…LOL
we need to sign someone with no name. They’re cheaper and seem to be playing to prove themselves. Not sure who the answer is because I’m hoping some kid steps that we haven’t heard of. also, not sure I’d trust a japanese league player to come over either, not that I’ve even heard that mentioned.
thats taking a bit too much of a risk dont ya think. They may be “playing to prove themselves” but if they suck…what then. We dont have a kid that nobody has ever heard of that is going to magically step up.
If he has no name, what will it say on the back of his jersey? And will he wear No. 0?
I think he means Clint Eastwood. That guy’s a bad mofo, and always seems to have something to prove.
How about a guy named Ocho Cinco
mmm…papa john’s.
I don’t think we can win a championship without Billy. This is a lot worse than people think. After Delgado’s option is picked up, we’re going to sign Ollie, another starter (maybe, maybe Pedro) and go after K-Rod.
Yup. We’re as dead in the water as the Cardinals were in 2006 when Izzy went down.
you see a wainwright on our team?
Neise does have a nice curve…
/kidding. mostly.
i’ll put money that Maine wouldn’t go to the bullpen or if he did it would be on the mindset of Heilman, Keep him in the rotation
By the way Matt I think a flexor pronator is what was used in the Delorian in the Back to the Future movies.
Where’s Danny Graves?
.:: shiver at the thought ::.
This thread is about Wagner first – before we talk about closers we should give Wags his due. He was a good and sometimes great closer. I wish him well and my guess he was really upset because he knows his career is over or he will never be the same. That has to be tough for an athlete.
We will have plenty of time to discuss closer over the next six months.
i loved billy as a met, blown saves and all. i’m sorry this has happened to him.
third. he was awesome in 06, and now has just had a chronic case of the birthdays catch up to him. Loved his mouth, “screw it” attitude, and when he was on – way more often than not – he was ridiculous.
Yeah, as I said above he must be distraught that his career could be ending like this. It’s really too bad, especially for a guy that has been as dominant in parts of his career as Billy Wags has. He doesn’t deserve this, but unfortunately, it happens, sometimes to the best.
He was good for this team, and it’s tough to watch Wagner go out like this. He’ll be missed by those that appreciate what he’s done. There are haters, sure, but I think most of us can appreciate how good he was.
Happy trails, Mr. Wagner.
Ditto. Thanks for all you did for us, Billy. You will be missed.
i have no faith in fuentes and i don’t think street is worth prospects. starting pitching holes are easier to fill from within, and CC is the only real stud in this market. and he will be require a huge commitment for a weight risk.
i think we have to go after k-rod.
Wouldn’t you love to be K-Rod’s agent right about now?
They can sign K-rod and get Billy back next year for a Playoff push. That would be sick!
Ayala has blown 1 save in 6. That is a better rate than Wagner. No doubt they are better with Wagner but they have been winning without him. the bullpen blowups have been in the 7th and 8th innings…
oh, and for the rotation, may i suggest yu darvish
Seconded… he’ll come with a $75 mil posting fee, and will demand big money, but he’s gonna be the real deal. He has superstar written all over him.
Hopefully, Johan could play a part in recruiting his fellow Venezuelan, K-Rod.
And it’ll be hilarious to read all the posts on this site from bigots who ripped Omar for making the roster “too Latin,” who’ll now BEG him to sign K-Rod at all costs.
I would use Stokes as the closer, and fill in the rest of the bullpen around him. Saves money on the closer, and ow go out and spend money on SP…..We need to try stokes in that spot and see. He has been awsome in the pen…96 mph fastball…
I hear all of this talk about K-Rod. I am always skeptical about signing relievers to multi-year deals. Especially guys who have their best years behind them. K-Rod may not be a long term fix. That is what we need.
I honestly believe we may have some guys in our system right now that could close for us. Bradley Holt comes to mind first. Jimmy Johnson may be a possibility from Brooklyn as well. I would also throw out the name Dillon Gee.
Its true we need a closer but we need starting pitching as well as other bullpen arms. I would definitely retain Ollie and go after some ground ball pitchers rather than the strikeout guys. They are just cheaper and if you don’t think groundball pitchers can win with this team just ask Pelfrey.
We gotta think of it like this. We already have a number one and a number two pitcher for next year. Johan and Pelf. We need a 3, 4 and 5 guy if our bullpen is up to par. If we get another ace, we need an innings eater.
K-Rod is 26 years old and arguably the best closer in baseball…just saying.
You know who else was once 26 and arguably the best closer in baseball?
Eric Gagne.
… just saying.
Yes, but you can’t sit around and not sign a guy at the top of the closer food chain because one guy blew out his arm.
True, but at the same time you can avoid giving out an overly long term contract.
agreed. a balance must be struck.
4 years is not long.
nah, there’s nathan, paps, mariano, lidge, etc.
hell, joakim soria’s got better peripherals. k-rod will get his money because of the save total even though his season hasn’t been all that special for a closer.
You honestly think Gee or Holt are long term solutions that can be closing next year? No way. Eddie Kunz, maybe, and he is supposed to be our future closer.
If K-Rod is not the long term solution, then we need someone who is a short term solution… which you did not mention. Care to throw some names out?
How can anyone know what anyone is going to do LONG Term? You seem to think long term means next year only. That is why I suggested someone really young who could project as a closer. K-Rod has lost velocity on his fastball. That means he is not going to be as good as he has been in the past. We need someone who can be good for the next two to three years. I think Holt projects in that direction. You say next year he may not be ready, but if he is good enough after that, why sign K-Rod? At that point we would just be putting a guy with closer stuff in around the 7th inning of games. And the last thing we want is a 7th inning guy not able to be used to his best of abilities because we have an $80 million contract clogging his path. You say we have to think long term, but I am thinking long term. You are thinking of only next year. K-Rod may be a good closer in the future. He won’t be a great closer for the next 4 years though. His best years are behind him because he has already started losing his pitch speed. The other thing that is a problem is wrapping up a guy for 4 or 5 years who easily could get hurt and then we are exactly where we are right now. We need to groom some guys to close and then at the very minimum our bullpen is in better shape. I mentioned guys that could close and have the stuff to do it.
Who holt..are ya kidding..we just drafted this kid. Yes he may “project” to be heading that way but one thing is projecting and another is actually getting there. The only person that has seen Major League action is kunz and he didnt look as dominating as even a less strike out pitcher in krod. Krod has reinvented his delivery to avoid injury and that has changed his approach on the mound. Bottom line krod is young and battle tested..the kid can get the job done. Why dont we have him do that while kunz and holt have time in the minors to truly harness their skills and contribue on a ML level.
I don’t think long term means next year… that ’s why i said that if K-Rod is not the long term solution, then we need a short term solution, especially if we wait on guys you suggested. Kunz is supposedly the guy that projects as a closer, and if we a$$ume that he’s not ready, we need someone to fill the closer role for next year… like Fuentes, who is older and won’t require as much money or as many years.
Exactly. Kunz nor holt has proven they can handle ML action. Why should we entrust the season to them. I say go after krod first and if anything settle on fuentes but leave the kids alone to get better so when krod’s contract is up..they can contribute to the club rather than hurt it or take up space.
I don’t have a problem with a bridge solution. But I have a problem spending so much to lock K-Rod in and lock other options out. As far as the players in our system, we have potential horses. But having K-Rod locked up merely relegates them to being traded.
And I stand by what I said, Holt is a strong candidate as a closer. He doesn’t have a large variety of pitches but he has a plus fastball.
The bullpen has done much better. They deserve a lot of credit for this. Joe Smith and Pedro Feliciano have done well in their specialist roles. Stokes has done well in lots of roles. Long relief. Short relief. Ayala’s done well as the closer. Even Schoenweis, Aaron Heilman and Duaner Sanchez have gotten a little better. The reliance on Heilman and Sanchez is less which has helped this team.
Now if we were to make the playoffs, all of these guy’s wouldn’t be on the roster. I’m not even talking about the 40 man guy’s. You’d have to imagine Figueroa stays there as a long man. Show, Feliciano, Stokes, Smith and Ayala are all there. Who gets the boot? Heilman or Sanchez? Or do you hold 8 relievers with 4 starters?
stokes- closer
ayala -8th inning
smith, feliciano – specialists
I don’t think K-Rod will get 5 years. Lots of teams who have the money for him got closers already. It’ll come down to the Mets, Angels and Cardinals. We’re hearing about Carpenter as a possibility as a closer for them. They don’t got the money. The Tigers are another possibility too. I’m guessing it’ll be a showdown between the Mets and Angels for him.
He’s as good as it’s going to get. He’s much better than Wagner. He’s young. He throws hard. I don’t see why you don’t go after him. Why go after Street? They’d have to give up multiple prospects for him only to see him eventually command a similar contact with inflation. Street isn’t as good as K-Rod. You give up the first round draft pick and try to get something back for Billy.
My guess is K-Rod gets 4yr/60MM from the Mets. I don’t know why, but I think he’ll be here. Omar has managed to get all Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner and Johan – all All-Star type players when they were acquired.
Just look at what Wags got from the Mets as a 34 year old (yes, 8 years older than K-Rod)!
4 yrs, $43m!
K-Rod is going to get PAID! Even if it’s a two team race to sign him.
Maybe the whole Venezuelian connection with help (are you listening Mr. Santana?)
Its always better to get a closer in the free agency market as the Mets can’t afford to give up anymore prospects. Its a real shame that as Mets fans, we probably have seen the end of Billy Wagner as a Met. I wish him the best.
exactly WilletsPoint7, we cant afford to give up anymore prospects, so sign K-Rod and be done with it.
Very true. Ask people if they want next season for
A. Sign Krod and still have at least 25 million to spend on pitching.
B. Trade Fmart and Parnell for Street.
C. Have Ayala be our fulltime closer for an entire season.
Well, the greatest story of the season COULD be- “Ayala comes back from the dead with the Nationals and closes out NL Pennant for the METS”…the bottom line is it’s time to GET ON THE AYALA/CLOSER BY COMMITTEE train…
I’m sure today’s day off helps absorb a little of the “distraction factor”….but all we can do is GET BEHIND WHOEVER IT IS (yes, even if it is AFH!)…
Let’s go METS! (and Marlins!) :-)
Or it could be the worst story of the season – “Ayala who has been great for the Mets since being traded here blows his 2nd save and the Mets miss the playoffs by a game to the Phillies again.”
I hope I see your headline instead of mine.
I’m not too excited to think of Fuentes as the future closer for the Mets. Lets get younger at the closer position.
If the Mets were to give K-Rod 15MM a year, Ollie 13MM (say 4 yr/52MM), pick up Delgado’s option, re-sign Easley to a similar contract, accumulate Johan’s 5.5MM salary hike and sign Fernando Tatis to a 1yr/3MM type deal – than the Mets pay roll would only jump 1.6MM not counting players going through arbitration. If you trade Wagner simply as a salary dump even if you ate a couple million of it, they’re actually saving money.
Stokes is an 8th inning specialist just like he was used last night, to get one key guy against a team.
He throws a bit too straight to be closer material and frankly needs to prove he can be more than just a situational guy at the moment.
See Kyle Farnsworth.
do you watch the team?
He has pitched multiple scoreless innings quite a few times..i’m not saying he is closer material, but you are WAY off base
Signing K-Rod really is hampering the Mets financial situation considering all Pedro, El Duque and Alou coming off the books. The good thing about youth is that it’s cheap. If the Mets got a rotation of Daniel Murphy and Nick Evans out in LF, you save a lot of money. That money can be used in different areas.
Even if it’s not K-Rod, it should be someone who they look to make a splash at. I like Delgado more than Texeira and don’t think Texeira’s worth 20MM a year, so that’s not going to happen. The only other guy who I’d like to see is CC even if it meant not re-signing Ollie. In 05′, the Mets made two splashes at Beltran and Pedro. In 06′, they got Delgado via trade (high salary) and Wagner. In 07′, who’d they really get to improve us? Maybe that impacted a decline. In 08′, we get Johan and Church. In 09′, it’ll be someone.
I don’t want to take any credit away from Stokes, but he could be just having a hot streak. I don’t think he is the best closing option because he’s had limited experience. I think the role he is right now is more than us to ask. Smith and Feliciano should handle the the situation hitting of the 7th inning, with Stokes doing the 8th. If our pitchers can’t get through 6, that’s a problem. With Pedro, it is. And as Duaner has shown it, he isn’t that bad.
We need to get K-Rod in the off-season. I think the Tigers and maybe even the D’Backs would probably be in the hunt for him though.
Wow im gonna be bored tonight. i wish the Mets played today.
You can root root root for the Marlins
I’m glad they are off tonight so I can watch a little football (and of course hope the Phillies lose). After the two days off this week its the stretch run with the Mets playing every single day until the end of the regular season.
Who f’ing cares about K-Rod, he aint here now so it does not matter.
The Mets have at least around $30 million coming off the books this winter (Pedro, El Duque, Alou, Wise) … maybe a little more if they can unload Castillo.
That’s enough to take on two pricey contracts. I think it should be Ollie and K-Rod. Then use Evans-Carp-Murphy-F-Mart-Argenis to fill holes in LF, 2B, and the bench.
Use Heilman as the fifth starter and if he doesn’t work out, then it’s back to the bullpen or AAA or he’s released or traded. No big deal as he doesn’t make a lot of money.
They can certainly afford K-Rod and he’s worth the risk. Don’t skimp on the bullpen.
except for the save total (which is dependent on how many leads the angels give him), this is k-rod’s worst season. strikeouts are down, walks still way too high, velocity down, increased LD%. not good signs for the future.
That’s what they said about Santana this winter. His numbers were down in 2007. Not good signs for the future. How has he turned out? And K-Rod is younger.
You know what? … from about the age of 26-28, it’s mostly downhill for almost all players. That doesn’t mean that they won’t continue to be elite players at their positions and be worthwhile risks for long-term contracts.
Make an offer. Stay in the mix. If it gets too outrageous, then cut bait. But otherwise, not to pursue one of the premier closers in the game who is still young is stupid.
26-28 is mostly downhill for all players? that’s when most players peak, lol. and because it worked for santana (who, by the way, is gettting lucky. his FIP is 3.70, has an LD% of 21.1 and is leaving 82% of guys on base, all anomalies) does not mean it will work for someone else.
if you guys think watching billy wagner get a save is coronary-inducing, you clearly haven’t watched k-rod walk two guys, strike out two guys, then get a long fly ball for the 3rd out.
It does not ALL work that easily.
Beltran, Wright and Reyes all have salary escalations next year.
Maine will be an arbitration case if he is even healthy.
The Mets have TWO healthy starting pitchers under contract next year Santana and Pelfrey, fortunately they currently are the two best they have.
I see next to NO changes being made to the everyday 8 next year other than in all likelihood Castillo being shopped.
The focus needs to be on starting pitching and bullpen help, but in that order. Frankly big money to a closer is a big time waste.
I tend to agree on the closer being too costly verses the return. But big market teams can afford to waste that money. The Mets should do when they can to bring him in next year.
But as you say, it cant be priority number one for Omar.
I dont see it as a waste if the “big money closer” does his job and saves us games. Of course if omar does not do anything to the bullpen(which would cost us no money) everyone will kill omar the whole year and all we will hear about is how omar failed to improve the pen but if omar brings in a Krod..now the complaint is its a waste of money…arent you getting what you want in an improved bullpen??
Of course they need to improve the pen, but just easily Stokes could magically have turned into a solid middle reliever (unlikely but plausible) and Ayala might be a decent set up guy, who knows, or perhaps he gets totally off on the closer role, who knows, maybe he is better under extreme pressure, stranger things have happened.
I’m already talking about LT payroll. They have about $30 million in LT payroll coming off the books. So they can afford to put at least $30 million in LT payroll back on.
Also, the LT threshold increases $7 million next year.
And Maine won’t get a lot in arbitration because his numbers this year are down.
They have 4 healthy starting pitchers under contract next year — Johan, Pelfrey, Heilman, and Niese. Sign Ollie and you have 5 + Maine.
What’s a waste is spending a lot of money on a starter and then skimping on the bullpen so you waste some of those starts. They wasted many of Johan’s starts this year.
“Free Aaron Heilman” is right on the money here. Spending money on top starters is a waste if you have no solid bullpen guys to close out the game. A closer is much more important in today’s game than it used to be because starters pitch much fewer innings now than they used to. We need more relievers for ‘09
Omar,
your 2008-2009 offseason game plan..
1) resign Perez and sign Sheets to improve the rotation.
2) sign K-Rod and trade for Brian Fuentes. (and maybe Bradford)
3) trade as much of the pen as you can find takers for, and see if you can lose Luis Castillo in the process. (except Joe Smith)
4) pick up Delgado and plan on letting the kids compete for the LF/2B and bench spots. Dont waste time talking to position player free agents as it will only distract you from pitching. Much like Santana distracted you from every other problem the team has this year.
why would you sign K-Rod and trade for Fuentes? it makes no sense to acquire two closers. and I doubt Sheets and Ollie will both be signed, maybe one of them. and for the bullpen, their will be plenty of RP in FA, why trade? I agree about shopping Castillo though, but I doubt much will return for him.
lets see…
1. agreed on perez, stay away from injury prone sheets
2. Sure, but NO to Fuentes
3. wow..not gonna touch it
4. agreed
I’m with you all the way.
1) Sign Perez for surez, but I might go with Burnett or Garland before Sheets. Honestly, just get whichever two guys will be cheapest.
2) Don’t get Fuentes, but he’s a possible backup plan. K-Rod for sure as well.
3) Keep Ayala, Stokes, Smith, and maybe Sanchez. Everyone else can go. And shop Slappy like he’s going out of style.
4) Couldn’t agree more. However, maybe sign some Tatis-esque players to minor league contracts who could provide veteran experience if needed in an emergency.
I would rather take K-Rod but I think Fuentes price will be cheaper. then Omar wont have to sweat bullets trying to sign Ollie. I would shop Castillo and put Murphy at 2nd and sign a LF. if this is all possible….idk
K- Rod is too much cash. Maybe you can have Maine be the closer, and sign a quality #2 pitcher like sheets or burnett, you can also resign ollie this way by saving the money on K-Rod Rotation 1. Santana 2. Sheets/Burnett 3. Ollie 4. Pelfrey 5. Niese closer: Maine another reason why I think they should do this is because Maine’s biggest problem is going deep into games. A bullpen role is much better fit for him.
I think the Maine to the bullpen idea was a short term solution considering his injury and the teams merry-go-round in the bullpen. Maine is considered to be a #2 pitcher and will not be a consideration for the bullpen next year. He is too valuable as a starter.
What is this “too much cash” business…are we not in the largest market in the country….are we not moving into a new stadium next year…do we not own our own tv network….we are not the pirates or the marlins…WE CAN SPEND MONEY!!!!
I wonder how much of this elbow problem has to do with Billy changing his wind up this year.
I also wonder if Billy’s contract is insured for the 4th year.
Ok boys let me tell you whats going to happen next ( and you all better remeber this I don’t wan’t to repeat myself. We will sign K-rod (yeah), but brad holt will be coming up from the minonrs around late june and or early august and be a dominant 8th inning pitcher. Dominant. With stokes ayala, feliciano, and smith, we will be just fine. I do think we have to resign ollie, and try to make a push for sheets, but I don’t think we need to add any bats for next year considering that Murphy/evans/ and martinez might provide offensive production. Your welcome, and relax everything will be fine.
Looking ahead, if billy can come back to a pen that includes k-rod next year, the mets could be very dangerous at the back end of that pen towards the end of the season
The only way Billy is coming back is to old timers day.
This has retirement written all over it.
Also, this makes picking up Ayala look like the best move of the year, especially with his performances so far.
2 words…………..Brett Myers! He wants to close and will not for the Phillies. Plus we steal him from the enemy. Brilliant!
except he has stated that he HATES the mets
He also beats his wife.
A dollar sign can always make people over come hatred, can’t it? lol He’s not a FA until 2010 anyway. He’s going to be one of the Phillies main SP’s next season. They can’t afford to trade him and I doubt these two teams will make trades with each other until the rivalry cools off which won’t be any time soon.
Everybody please forget this Sheets crap. He is a walking injury who (what a surprise) finally stays healthy in his FA year. Sign Ollie and Lowe and grab some bullpen help and then we will dominate in ‘09.
Yeah, that’s getting to me too. Just put “earned” in there and be done with it.
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