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In case you missed it, Billy Wagner will miss the rest of the year with a torn ligament in his left elbow.
Mets GM Omar Minaya later told reporters that Wagner will have Tommy John Surgery this week, which will hopefully allow him to pitch ‘within a year’s time.’
…in other words, there is a very, very good chance wagner has thrown his final pitch for the Mets…
In a post to Faith and Fear in Flushing, Jason takes a moment to honor Wagner, who, he feels, ‘never got his due in New York.’
Minaya, during a conference call yesterday, said:
“Baseball is not about one guy - it’s about a team and the concept of togetherness.”
…the silver lining is that the Mets have had 30 days without wagner to develop a plan of attack, and it’s working…since wagner went down, Jerry Manuel has been able to learn who can do what in what role and when…had wagner been dominating, and the Mets had built their hopes around his stability, and then he injured himself and was then suddenly pulled out of the system with just two weeks left in the season, well, wow, this team would be in trouble…however, manuel and wagner’s teammates have been forced to live without him for a while now, and they’ve been winning, so, while i am sure they feel bad for their teammate, this reality should not dent their confidence…nor ours…
In a column from today’s New York Post, Kevin Kernan explains why the Mets can still win without Wagner, noting, “The odds of the Mets winning the NL East and making a mark in the postseason just got a lot longer, but remember the Mets posted a 22-11 record with Wagner on the shelf.”
Welp this was not a surprise. So far for the most part every injury has been a blessing in disguise
Alou-for a short time pagan/Tatis/Murphy/Evans
El Duque-Pelfry
Martinez-for a short time Figueroa
Perhaps this would be a door opening for ayala. Time will tell. Omar should add closer to his shopping list for this offseason.
This isn’t a good thing man, I will greatly miss billy and his candor. he had a ton of fire and he absolutely made this team better when he pitched and when he didn’t.
Get well billy, i truly hope to see you in a mets uniform again brother…
Armando Benitez
SEASON TEAM W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO
1999 Mets 4 3 1.85 77 0 0 0 22 28 78.0 40 17 16 4 0 41 128
2000 Mets 4 4 2.61 76 0 0 0 41 46 76.0 39 24 22 10 0 38 106
2001 Mets 6 4 3.77 73 0 0 0 43 46 76.1 59 32 32 12 1 40 93
2002 Mets 1 0 2.27 62 0 0 0 33 37 67.1 46 20 17 8 3 25 79
Billy Wagner
SEASON TEAM W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO
2006 Mets 3 2 2.24 70 0 0 0 40 45 72.1 59 22 18 7 4 21 94
2007 Mets 2 2 2.63 66 0 0 0 34 39 68.1 55 22 20 6 2 22 80
2008 Mets 0 1 2.30 45 0 0 0 27 34 47.0 32 17 12 4 0 10 52
Armando Benitez was Billy Wagner-esque.
Media likes Billy. That’s why no one dumps on him like they did Benitez.
Right. Media makes people think Billy was so great. I keep saying it … he’s not THAT good. :)
armando benitez was very good in ‘99. then the walks started to catch up to him. wagner doesn’t walk nearly as many people as benitez.
i can’t wait until k-rod comes here and blows a bunch of saves because he can’t throw strikes to save his life and you guys whine about what an overpaid bum he is.
That’s a good argument. I showed you stats, which you love … and you can only make a prediction about another pitcher who had nothing to do with those stats.
Benitez was unfairly criticized when he was a Met. He was one of the best closers in the game and statistically matched up well against not only Wagner, but Rivera and Hoffman.
Na na na na na na na na Hey hey hey GOOODBYE!!..
“….but remember the Mets posted a 22-11 record with Wagner on the shelf”
Marlon Anderson’s numbers strike again…
Will insurance pick up the bill for him next year?
If so, even more money coming off the books that we can spend on starting pitching, a new closer, etc.
I think the biggest silver lining is there is no longer a question mark of what to do with an unreliable Wagner next season. It was if we can trade Wagner or if he comes back and gets injured or if…..
Now it is clear Step 1) Sign Krod. 2) If outbid then trade for Ryan or Street 3) If price is too high sign Fuentes.
I have said all year that I want Krod next year and wanted no part in Wagner messing up our future for 1 more risky year. I guess that part was solved. Good luck Wagner, may we never see you pitch as a Met again.
Hey look at that … we agree again. Frame it!
as usual agreed….
Agree except for Fuentes. The guy is 33 and we’d have the same problem all over again. As a last resort, I’ll hope Ayala pans out (he’s only 30).
Yea but Fuentes has more closing experiance than Ayala. We should try to keep ayala for our 8th inning guy and get a true closer to finish out the games. Fuentes may come cheaper than krod and would be a good fallback option if the krod deal doesnt work.
Exactly. Why put that pressure on Ayala. Besides, isn’t he a FA too. I hope we resign him. I like having him as a setup guy. But we also have to realize that these guys like Stokes and Ayala may just be one year wonders too. I hope not.
Is anyone else sick of this bullpen? Yeah? I thought so! With Wagner out next season, why should the Mets limit themselves to one big bullpen pick-up. Sign K-rod or Fuentes AND trade for Ryan or Street. Instant hugely upgraded bullpen.
It is risky to have multiple former/present closers on the team. Say we sign KRod and he has a tough stretch of a week and Fuentes or Street are the “set-up” men. The media would start right away looking for the set-up men to become the closer. It wouldn’t be a good situation from a team standpoint.
Screw the media!
I say the same thing but we have to take into account the media is a presence in the locker room whether we like it or not. It would be risky from a chemistry standpoint. Closers are very much about the amount of saves they get and are usually unique personalities.
Look at the difference in closers that come in the game with a save on the line and without a save on the line. Just compare Mo and Wagner this year and you see that they tend to have trouble not being in a save situation.
We would be giving up way too much there man. Either or not both. If you can net krod then that solves the closer issue…Dammit just look at the real’s outline and thats what they should do. Alot of things have gone well for us and the bullpen has a bright future(once they trade heilman). If sanchez can come back to form..we got a pretty nice bullpen.
Stokes-crossover/longman
Feliciano-L specialist
Smith-R specialist
Show-L specialist
Duaner-crossover/Setup
Ayala-crossover/Setup
Krod/Street/Ryan/Fuentes-Closer
With the improvements in pelfry and ollie(if we get him back) they can pitch deeper into games…we should be better in 09 imo.
We can’t count on Sanchez to “return to form” – he hasn’t shown signs of that since coming back months ago.
Feliciano, Smith, and Show were all shaky at many points in the season.
I agree that Stokes and Ayala are favorable to be good additions for next year.
I just think that keeping almost the same bullpen as last year and hoping that they become more consistent isn’t a great idea.
I am not against “remodeling” some key pieces. Trade Heilman and Show for more universal relievers.
Krod, Ayala, Stokes, Smith, Felicniano, new, new gives a lot of room.
ok my comment didnt appear again…but ill try to sum up
“We can’t count on Sanchez to “return to form” – he hasn’t shown signs of that since coming back months ago”
-well if you were expecting sanchez to return to his 06 form this season..then you just set yourself up for faliure on that one. The guy had 2 surguries and hasnt pitched in over a year. The fact that he has pitched more or less an entire season gives hope that one day he can come back. If he puts the efford im sure he can come close or even regain his old form.
“Feliciano, Smith, and Show were all shaky at many points in the season.”
-Yea because our SP were not effective. We have been hit hard with injuries this season and if it wasnt that it was that the SP didnt last too long so yea those guys had to be stretched. The problem is they are all specialists and if you want to take them out of their element..watch out. Im sure willie/manuel were experimenting to see if they can achieve “crossover” status but they did not really respond to that well. Now with ayala/stokes/sanchez we got the crossover pitchers we need in order to let show/feliciano/smith be what they are and thats specialists imo.
As for your last comment prismo..as real said already..your trade bait in the bullpen are going to be heilman and show..I dont know what omar can net with those guys but there would be your “shakeup”..and of course signing krod :)
Dirty you brought up the best advice that I forgot to put in mine. The best way to fix the pen, resign Ollie and go get an innings eater like Lowe or Garland. Our pen gets worn out by having 2 low innings guys in Pedro and an injured Maine. Hopefully with a healthy Maine and that new #5 our BP will be 06 strong again.
Ever see a big closer pitch in a non close situation? Garbage time. Wagner, Lidge, Rivera, Krod all struggle in this situation. This is why the middle reliever/setup man is underrated but starting to catch up.
That’s a good point. :)
Thank you mikey_FF, I keep arguing with Met fans that Benitez was one of the best closers we’ve ever had. People claim That Wagner’s better becaue of the late season “meltdowns” of Benitez…..I still cast a lot of blame of last season’s collapse as well as the 2006 NLCS loss on Wagner. Giving up a HR to So Taguchi is unacceptable, and if Wagner closes out that epic last game in Philly last year with a 10-8 lead, we win the division.
Same argument with Franco. The guy threw junk but he was pretty darn good at it.
That’s right! And Billy had his share of “meltdown’s” also. He is so much like Benitez was, it’s scary.
I am curious to see what happens with Bobby Parnell. He is going to be a reliever at the big league level and throws very hard. I wonder if that will have an effect on what the Mets do next season. If Ayala does well the next few weeks and playoffs (hopefully) then I believe he will be cthe closer next year.
Please, we are the Mets and one the best relievers in the game is available. Why on Earth would we stay in house? Ayala is not going to have any other team offer him a closer’s spot so I would imagine he will stay here and be a key cog in next years pen.
We also have Burgos who threw in the high 90s before TJ surgery.
True but he should just be a surprise piece. We should not go in depending on him at all.
I agree with not depending on Burgos and Ayala being a setup man…I just think that $15MM per year can be better spent than on Francisco Rodriguez.
Why would you not rely on Ayala being the setupman? Closing out games for us this year is not enough?
I worded that wrong. I DO rely on Ayala being a set up man for next year. I do not rely on Burgos for anything. Should have had a comma in there.
Something tells me Burgos isn’t going to be around much longer.
They’re dancing their d!ckless jig (south park movie reference) here in philadelphia :(
Say what you want about Billy. At least when he came in to try and save a game, the opposition had a reason to be nervous b/c they knew he was gonna through smoke. He might have not always got the job done, but I truly believe he was a closer most would rather not face.
Ayala has done a decent job picking up the slack, but does anyone really believe the opposition fears him when he walks out there?
I still think we can get this done this year with what we have but we need a legitimate, bonefide closer for ‘09.
Billy came within 15 games, give or take, of the most saves for a closer. Not bad for a little guy who didn’t have the advantages most of us have.
Good luck to you, Sandman.
Say what you want about Billy. At least when he came in to try and save a game, the opposition had a reason to be nervous b/c they knew he was gonna throw smoke. He might have not always got the job done, but I truly believe he was a closer most would rather not face.
Ayala has done a decent job picking up the slack, but does anyone really believe the opposition fears him when he walks out there?
I still think we can get this done this year with what we have but we need a legitimate, bonefide closer for ‘09.
Billy came within 15 games, give or take, of the most saves for a closer. Not bad for a little guy who didn’t have the advantages most of us have.
Good luck to you, Sandman.
Sigh…sorry for the double post. First time I clicked, it said I was timed out…..
Key to offseason success.
1) Sign Krod
2) Resign Ollie
3) Pick up Delgado’s option
4) Sign Lowe or Garland
5) Trade Heilman and Show for new bullpen pieces
6) Trade Castillo and cash or a bullpen guy to the Indians for Rafel Betancourt and Josh Barfield.
More to follow.
Oh as for the Barfield part it would not be for him to start. I would let Muprhy try it and then if he stunk then at least we would have a reliable backup.
Key to offseason success.
1) Sign Krod
For the 15MM per year he is going to command, I would prefer Sheets for four years at that price. Trade pieces for Street or Ryan.
2) Resign Ollie
Agree
3) Pick up Delgado’s option
Yup
4) Sign Lowe or Garland
See above, not sure I agree with either of them.
5) Trade Heilman and Show for new bullpen pieces
Show has been solid this year and I would be wiling to give Heilaman another year, unless he can be had for an OF with a little pop.
6) Trade Castillo and cash or a bullpen guy to the Indians for Rafel Betancourt and Josh Barfield.
I think anything you can get for Castillo is a blessing right now.
The closer role is WAY overrated. It doesn’t take a great pitcher to get the bottom of a lineup out with a three run lead in the ninth. Yet, a manager can be second-guessed by not putting his closer in the ballgame in a save situation. IMHO, not having a closer enables the manager to use his bullpen based on game situations rather than a preset formula.
A team will never win this day and age with closer by committee. Not going to happen. When was the last time this did happen?
Closing is not for everyone. Don’t listen to the guys who overrate it. Some guys don’t have the mental makeup to ONLY pitch when the game is on the line then stand up and face the media as if the game was lost ONLY by them when they blow it.
“It doesn’t take a great pitcher to get the bottom of a lineup out with a three run lead in the ninth”
-ok but what about when you got 1 run and the heart of the order coming up and they are all the opposite hand that you are? Im not sure if you have been watching this year but not everyone is equipt to handle that kind of pressure and get the job done.
“IMHO, not having a closer enables the manager to use his bullpen based on game situations rather than a preset formula.”
-If you want to use that..lets say you have a 1 run lead and the heart of the lineup is R,S,L..the manager if playing to game situation wants to match up and you get 2 outs. Lets say your L specialist gives up a bomb and the game is tied and you go to extras…Now you have burned 2 or 3 pitchers for your extra innings rather than just having one guy that has the ability to close the door in that situation no matter who is coming up.
Yes a closer is not a guarenteed thing but having someone that can come into that situation and save the bullpen stress of going to extra inning and take of pressure from the offense of having to score 100 runs to secure a game is valuable. IMO there is nothing that is overrated if they get the job done.
Rivera is worth more than all but about 10 SP. Think of one thing that has turned the Phillies around? Lidge and his perfect save record. If they have 7 blown saves then how much further up would we be?
Exactly.
The 2003 Red Sox disagree. Closer by committee ALWAYS fails, and it’s not what the Mets have now. Ayala is the closer. He’s no Wagner — hell, he’s not even Chad Cordero — but he is the sole closer.
A look back at Billy in Backpages on my site: tomorrowsbackpage.com