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	<title>Comments on: Quote: I Trust Them</title>
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		<title>By: NYP-BOS-NYP</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337466</link>
		<dc:creator>NYP-BOS-NYP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337466</guid>
		<description>Sorry, let me add one more thing here.  When I said &quot;Strikeouts are dramatic and fun, but as an indicator of a pitcher’s effectiveness, they are overrated,&quot; I was exaggerating my point slightly. Of course strikeouts are &lt;i&gt;an&lt;/i&gt; indicator of a pitcher&#039;s effectiveness. My point is that they are not the &lt;i&gt;sole&lt;/i&gt; indicator.  You have to take all the numbers together.

And, frankly, as imperfect a stat as it is, if I had to pick one number to use as an overall evaluation of a pitcher, I would still choose ERA.  Because ultimately, a pitcher&#039;s job is to keep the other guys from scoring. Period.  How you achieve that is secondary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, let me add one more thing here.  When I said &#8220;Strikeouts are dramatic and fun, but as an indicator of a pitcher’s effectiveness, they are overrated,&#8221; I was exaggerating my point slightly. Of course strikeouts are <i>an</i> indicator of a pitcher&#8217;s effectiveness. My point is that they are not the <i>sole</i> indicator.  You have to take all the numbers together.</p>
<p>And, frankly, as imperfect a stat as it is, if I had to pick one number to use as an overall evaluation of a pitcher, I would still choose ERA.  Because ultimately, a pitcher&#8217;s job is to keep the other guys from scoring. Period.  How you achieve that is secondary.</p>
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		<title>By: NYP-BOS-NYP</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337449</link>
		<dc:creator>NYP-BOS-NYP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337449</guid>
		<description>Oh, and Pedro is a different pitcher.  Or was.  Actually, to the extent that he&#039;s been successful this year, it&#039;s been through &lt;i&gt;smart&lt;/i&gt; pitching, not &lt;i&gt;hard&lt;/i&gt; pitching.  It&#039;s possible Pedro will continue to be effective if he makes this transition.  But even if he doesn&#039;t, that doesn&#039;t mean that decreased K/IP means end of career for all pitchers.  It just means that for pitchers whose game depends on striking people out.  Not all do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Pedro is a different pitcher.  Or was.  Actually, to the extent that he&#8217;s been successful this year, it&#8217;s been through <i>smart</i> pitching, not <i>hard</i> pitching.  It&#8217;s possible Pedro will continue to be effective if he makes this transition.  But even if he doesn&#8217;t, that doesn&#8217;t mean that decreased K/IP means end of career for all pitchers.  It just means that for pitchers whose game depends on striking people out.  Not all do.</p>
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		<title>By: NYP-BOS-NYP</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337441</link>
		<dc:creator>NYP-BOS-NYP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337441</guid>
		<description>#1, I do believe in what I&#039;m saying, and thank you for asking.,

#2, I think there would naturally be an inverse correlation between K (or K/IP) and WHIP.  If you&#039;re trying to get people to hit the ball on the ground rather than strike them out, you do run the risk that they will hit the ball on the ground somewhere where nobody is fielding.  Ergo, more hits against you, which means a higher WHIP.

The trick here is to have the confidence to pitch this way, but have the ability to shift to a more aggressive style of pitching when necessary. So you try to get people to hit ground balls, maybe even double plays, but if they get into scoring position, THEN you switch into power pitcher mode and strike them out.  This means your WHIP goes up, marginally, but your ERA stays low.

And, by the way, I&#039;m not making this stuff up.  After one of the CGs Johan pitched this year, Ron Darling (who knows more about pitching than you or I put together, I would think) specifically pointed out that Santana&#039;s strategy during the game was to throw a lot of strikes and keep them low in the strike zone, thus inducing players to hit a lot of ground balls and limiting his pitch count. Darling acknowledged that Johan&#039;s strikeouts were low that game (and they were), but pointed out that outs are outs, and that Johan had the intelligence to know that and plan accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#1, I do believe in what I&#8217;m saying, and thank you for asking.,</p>
<p>#2, I think there would naturally be an inverse correlation between K (or K/IP) and WHIP.  If you&#8217;re trying to get people to hit the ball on the ground rather than strike them out, you do run the risk that they will hit the ball on the ground somewhere where nobody is fielding.  Ergo, more hits against you, which means a higher WHIP.</p>
<p>The trick here is to have the confidence to pitch this way, but have the ability to shift to a more aggressive style of pitching when necessary. So you try to get people to hit ground balls, maybe even double plays, but if they get into scoring position, THEN you switch into power pitcher mode and strike them out.  This means your WHIP goes up, marginally, but your ERA stays low.</p>
<p>And, by the way, I&#8217;m not making this stuff up.  After one of the CGs Johan pitched this year, Ron Darling (who knows more about pitching than you or I put together, I would think) specifically pointed out that Santana&#8217;s strategy during the game was to throw a lot of strikes and keep them low in the strike zone, thus inducing players to hit a lot of ground balls and limiting his pitch count. Darling acknowledged that Johan&#8217;s strikeouts were low that game (and they were), but pointed out that outs are outs, and that Johan had the intelligence to know that and plan accordingly.</p>
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		<title>By: Bluerock</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337417</link>
		<dc:creator>Bluerock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337417</guid>
		<description>there&#039;s a PRETTY STRONG correlation between K/IP and how effective a pitcher is through his career.

lets look at pedro.  his K/IP was high when he most effective.  the ratio down when he became less effective.

your &quot;guess&quot; doesn&#039;t make much sense to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there&#8217;s a PRETTY STRONG correlation between K/IP and how effective a pitcher is through his career.</p>
<p>lets look at pedro.  his K/IP was high when he most effective.  the ratio down when he became less effective.</p>
<p>your &#8220;guess&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make much sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Bluerock</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337414</link>
		<dc:creator>Bluerock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337414</guid>
		<description>then why would his WHIP be up?

do you really believe what you are saying?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>then why would his WHIP be up?</p>
<p>do you really believe what you are saying?</p>
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		<title>By: NYP-BOS-NYP</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337411</link>
		<dc:creator>NYP-BOS-NYP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337411</guid>
		<description>I can venture a guess.  I think it&#039;s strategic.  I think if you get batters to hit the balls to people instead of striking out, you throw fewer pitches and can go deeper into games.

Strikeouts are dramatic and fun, but as an indicator of a pitcher&#039;s effectiveness, they are overrated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can venture a guess.  I think it&#8217;s strategic.  I think if you get batters to hit the balls to people instead of striking out, you throw fewer pitches and can go deeper into games.</p>
<p>Strikeouts are dramatic and fun, but as an indicator of a pitcher&#8217;s effectiveness, they are overrated.</p>
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		<title>By: NYP-BOS-NYP</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337406</link>
		<dc:creator>NYP-BOS-NYP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337406</guid>
		<description>The secret to Johan&#039;s success is that he mixes it up -- he throws offspeed pitches as often as he throws his fastball, and moves all around the strike zone.  He&#039;s not a power pitcher; he does not get people out by throwing the ball past them at unfathomable speeds; he gets them out by never throwing the same pitch twice and keeping them off-balance.

Santana &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; throw the ball at 95 mph, but he doesn&#039;t need to, most of the time, so he doesn&#039;t. Why should he?  Taking a couple of mph off of the fastball makes his arm last a little longer. Plus, it gives him an additional option: not only can he throw change-ups and slow things down, but he can also sometimes throw a ball extra hard, and that can trip people up as well.

I am not concerned at all.  I think what you&#039;re seeing from Johan with respect to velocity is very intentional.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The secret to Johan&#8217;s success is that he mixes it up &#8212; he throws offspeed pitches as often as he throws his fastball, and moves all around the strike zone.  He&#8217;s not a power pitcher; he does not get people out by throwing the ball past them at unfathomable speeds; he gets them out by never throwing the same pitch twice and keeping them off-balance.</p>
<p>Santana <i>can</i> throw the ball at 95 mph, but he doesn&#8217;t need to, most of the time, so he doesn&#8217;t. Why should he?  Taking a couple of mph off of the fastball makes his arm last a little longer. Plus, it gives him an additional option: not only can he throw change-ups and slow things down, but he can also sometimes throw a ball extra hard, and that can trip people up as well.</p>
<p>I am not concerned at all.  I think what you&#8217;re seeing from Johan with respect to velocity is very intentional.</p>
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		<title>By: Bluerock</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337403</link>
		<dc:creator>Bluerock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337403</guid>
		<description>his strikeouts are down, WHIP is up

can you explain why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>his strikeouts are down, WHIP is up</p>
<p>can you explain why?</p>
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		<title>By: Bluerock</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337399</link>
		<dc:creator>Bluerock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337399</guid>
		<description>the number one reason why pedro isnt pedro anymore is because he cant throw 95+ anymore.  PERIOD.

so if tim tincecum can&#039;t thrown 95+ anymore, and starts throwing 90-91, you think he&#039;ll be the same pitcher?  he might still be very effective, but he won&#039;t be the same ace that he is right now.

maddux and glavine are two SMALL statistical examples out a large sample of pitchers who have come in and out of the game.  and guess what?  neither has posted a sub 3 ERA in a long time.  

its true, you shouldn&#039;t have to expend energy just to throw 95 mph.  That&#039;s why GM&#039;s always worry about little guys who will wear out.  its GENERALLY not as tough for a guy who is 6&#039;5, 240 to throw at that pace consistently without messing up his arm.  this is why i am a little worried about santana.  he is not a big guy.  it doesnt matter if he knows how to pitch, thats nonsense, you have to have good stuff.  pedro still knows how to pitch, he just doesnt have the stuff anymore, namely, his fastball.

i can see santana sometimes shies away from truyl challenging hitters.  sometimes he gives up walks in situations because he was too afraid to just dial it up and let a fastball go, and instead tried to get too cute and paint a corner, and missed badly.  

whatever...as of now, hes fine...im worried about 3 yrs from now....he&#039;ll stil be effective, im not saying he wont, but i really doubt he will win a cy young, or post a sub 3 era.

just look at his strikeout ratios.  they are DOWN.  and his whip hasn&#039;t really gotten better even though he switched to an easier league.  there&#039;s some telltale signs creeping up about santana.  i hope i&#039;m wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the number one reason why pedro isnt pedro anymore is because he cant throw 95+ anymore.  PERIOD.</p>
<p>so if tim tincecum can&#8217;t thrown 95+ anymore, and starts throwing 90-91, you think he&#8217;ll be the same pitcher?  he might still be very effective, but he won&#8217;t be the same ace that he is right now.</p>
<p>maddux and glavine are two SMALL statistical examples out a large sample of pitchers who have come in and out of the game.  and guess what?  neither has posted a sub 3 ERA in a long time.  </p>
<p>its true, you shouldn&#8217;t have to expend energy just to throw 95 mph.  That&#8217;s why GM&#8217;s always worry about little guys who will wear out.  its GENERALLY not as tough for a guy who is 6&#8217;5, 240 to throw at that pace consistently without messing up his arm.  this is why i am a little worried about santana.  he is not a big guy.  it doesnt matter if he knows how to pitch, thats nonsense, you have to have good stuff.  pedro still knows how to pitch, he just doesnt have the stuff anymore, namely, his fastball.</p>
<p>i can see santana sometimes shies away from truyl challenging hitters.  sometimes he gives up walks in situations because he was too afraid to just dial it up and let a fastball go, and instead tried to get too cute and paint a corner, and missed badly.  </p>
<p>whatever&#8230;as of now, hes fine&#8230;im worried about 3 yrs from now&#8230;.he&#8217;ll stil be effective, im not saying he wont, but i really doubt he will win a cy young, or post a sub 3 era.</p>
<p>just look at his strikeout ratios.  they are DOWN.  and his whip hasn&#8217;t really gotten better even though he switched to an easier league.  there&#8217;s some telltale signs creeping up about santana.  i hope i&#8217;m wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: NYP-BOS-NYP</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/09/19/quote-i-trust-them/#comment-337389</link>
		<dc:creator>NYP-BOS-NYP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=19112#comment-337389</guid>
		<description>I know very little about Mahay, but since you&#039;re citing him as an example of a sure thing that Omar missed, I looked up his stats. I don&#039;t see a sure thing. I see a guy with a 2.8 ERA this year, a 2.7 ERA the previous year, and 4.0 and 6.8 in the two previous years. I see a guy with 46 strikeouts in 63 inning pitched this year, but also 27 walks, one hit batter, and 5 home runs given up.  And he&#039;s 37.  How is he not a crapshoot?  He&#039;s been pretty good, not stellar, for two of the last four years, and pretty bad for the other two.  He looks to me to be a thoroughly average relief pitcher.

People want to fault Omar for not pulling a rabbit out of his hat.  It&#039;s ridiculous.  There just isn&#039;t that much solid, proven, &lt;i&gt;reliable&lt;/i&gt; talent available.  And even if it were, the Mets do not have unlimited resources with which to acquire them.

The man got us arguably the best starting pitcher in baseball last year, and that acquisition has saved this team&#039;s bacon on more than one occasion.  What do you want out of the guy?  Is one miracle a year not enough for you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know very little about Mahay, but since you&#8217;re citing him as an example of a sure thing that Omar missed, I looked up his stats. I don&#8217;t see a sure thing. I see a guy with a 2.8 ERA this year, a 2.7 ERA the previous year, and 4.0 and 6.8 in the two previous years. I see a guy with 46 strikeouts in 63 inning pitched this year, but also 27 walks, one hit batter, and 5 home runs given up.  And he&#8217;s 37.  How is he not a crapshoot?  He&#8217;s been pretty good, not stellar, for two of the last four years, and pretty bad for the other two.  He looks to me to be a thoroughly average relief pitcher.</p>
<p>People want to fault Omar for not pulling a rabbit out of his hat.  It&#8217;s ridiculous.  There just isn&#8217;t that much solid, proven, <i>reliable</i> talent available.  And even if it were, the Mets do not have unlimited resources with which to acquire them.</p>
<p>The man got us arguably the best starting pitcher in baseball last year, and that acquisition has saved this team&#8217;s bacon on more than one occasion.  What do you want out of the guy?  Is one miracle a year not enough for you?</p>
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