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In a loss to the Braves yesterday, 
Mike Pelfrey let up three runs and six hits, while walking three and striking out two, in six innings, before the bullpen went on to blow their 29th save of the season.
He let up one run in the first, and one in the second, then got it together, but began to run out of gas in the start of seventh, walking the lead-off hitter, and was removed from the game after having thrown 106 pitches.
The thing is, there are times when a tired Pelfrey, or a tired Johan Santana, in the seventh, at, say, 50 percent, may be a better option than a 100 percent Aaron Heilman.
Look, this is it, folks. I mean, it doesn’t get any more dire than right now. This situation with the bullpen can now be considered a ‘crisis,’ since there are just seven games left in the season.
And so, the Mets may need to consider using starting pitchers, like Pelfrey and Santana, in relief for one inning on the day they are scheduled to throw their bullpen session – either that, or it’s time for them to start on short rest.
Pedro Martinez recently told the Daily News that he is willing to pitch out of the bullpen during the playoffs.
Great, except you’re not in the playoffs yet, Pedro.
Instead, I’m thinking the Mets may need to put Martinez in the bullpen now and pitch Santana or Pelfrey on short rest, like 
the Blue Jays did last week with Roy Halladay and A.J. Burnett when facing the Red Sox.
The point is, something has to change.
I am tired of watching two teams. There is the offense, the defense and the starting pitchers, and then there is the bullpen. Frankly, they should be wearing a different hat and uniform at this point.
Yes, they need to execute, ‘make their pitches,’ etc., which is what we’ve been hearing for the last few months. Again, though, there are only seven games left. If the idea is to make better pitches, well, they’re running out of time.
There are major flaws in every solution I just outlined, no question, but, if it is truly an ‘all-hands-on-deck situation,’ like Jerry Manuel has said, then when is he going to start acting like it.
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Well said Matt..
Wow…I agree with the well said comment. When Matt gets this fired up about a situation it is officially a crisis. It’s time for the Mets to finally take care of their own business. It starts tonight. They need to jump all over Marquis early and often. At this point, in order of confidence I have winning a game per starter it goes:
Santana
Pelfrey
Ollie
Niese
If that means Pedro’s in the bullpen so be it. We know what the bullpen can’t do. Let’s see what the starters can.
Consider how swell Pedro has done in his first innings of work, he’ll fit right in with this bullpen.
ouch, your right.
This was going to be my exact point – the only way Pedro can be effective out of the bullpen is if we stick Marlon Anderson in there with a bat and let Marlon tee off a few times before Pedro gets in the actual game.
FYI – The Phillies are pitching Moyer and Myers on short rest and it is working out fine. I mean Myers got lit up Friday but before that he pitched a complete game shutout. I am tired of Manuel making a pitching change after every batter and our bullpen and the use of it has become embarrasing. I agree it’s time to start guys on 3 days rest and start making drastic changes. These last 7 games need to be treated like it’s life or death and Jerry needs to do whatever it takes to win ball games. Heilman can NOT see another inning this year!!! Sick of seeing him get a guy 0-2 and not being able to put guys away. I hope somehow Maine can pitch this week because they desperately need him!!!
NO Maine – he can’t be used. That kind of desperation can ruin his career (and the Mets future).
i agree, discomfort is one thing, but i don’t want him pitching in pain.
I would gladly sacrifice John Maine’s career for a World Series ring… John Maine’s come and go – but flags fly forever.
Unbelieveably, I agree…
If they win the World Series, I could hinestly care less what happens in 2009…
you forgot to add…”until 2009 that is.” :-)
Usually a player goes through a bad stretch the others can pick up the slack. The Mets pen all seem to run hot and cold at the same time, its like they are all on the same freakin’ menstrual cycle or something….a few weeks back, they were ALL doing great, did not allow a run for 7-8 games, now they ALL stink again….its trully bizarre.
your logic suggests that women on thier cycle stink, your liable to get your face ripped off for that one… heh
Can BObby Parnell get some meaningful innings at this point??
I finally caught a glimpse of Parnell over the weekend and was impressed with the little bit of work that I saw. He’s got some nasty movement, but his minor league numbers read like he has control problems…..can’t hurt to see more though, especially with the clowns that they’ve been parading out there…
Parnell has retired every batter he’s faced. Why on earth would they consider using him?
Oh, and mea culpa on my “the bullpen’s not so bad comment’ from Saturday. Yeah, it is.
Bobby Jenks came out of nowhere and closed the 2005 World Series for the White Sox. I don’t know why you just can’t throw Parnell out there to get a meaningful guy or two.
See Francisco Rodriguez, 2002 Angels…
Bobby Parnell has faced 5 batters in meaningless situations. His minor league statistics are pretty pathetic. K-Rod and Jenks were dominant in the minors before spending half a season in the majors. Parnell has a future because of his heater, but look at this numbers before handing him the ball in huge spots.
Jenks was not dominant in the minors. As a matter of fact, he was claimed off waivers by the White Sox the year before. Point being, why not give him a shot. He can’t be any worse than what they have now.
When he was 22 he had a 2.07 ERA in AA. He has a 2.87 ERA at 24 in AA.
Bobby Parnell has never had his ERA under 4 in the minors, not to mention in college his ERA was over 4 his freshman year and rose every year to over 8 his final year.
Bobby Jenks was also called up early July that year and had 20 or so appearances before starting to close out games in September. Five batters, and then a couple quick auditions, does not apply here. I would have liked to see him up earlier, when Wagner first went down, instead of Kunz, OR give Kunz a real shot back in early August. Neither happened and now it’s too late to audition youngsters,.
Team is done. No heart.
I don’t want to agree with you. I really don’t but as time goes on and this team gets opportunities they continue to come up small in big spots.
This week is it man. Its put up or shut up time.
I disagree with you. Team A, as defined by Matt above, has heart. Team B which is the bullpen has no heart.
The bullpen has plenty of heart. But they have no talent. Therein lies the problem. You can’t make crap smell like a rose no matter how you slice it.
I disagree. I agree that some lack talent. But overall, I think lack of composure and guts for relieving is a problem for this pen. Especially when it comes to Heilman and Show. Neither of them have the makeup for relieving.
I actually think Heilman has a lot of talent. It’s just that mentally, he’s not suited for the pen. No heart or mind for it.
Do we throw the lineup innings 7-9 in with the bullpen for Team B? While they have added late runs lately, it has been a cause for concern this entire year.
I think that eventually, breaks have to start going their way. Think about it, eventually the ball has to find someone’s glove….doesn’t it?!?!?!
Eventually, Casey Kotchman’s oooops of a single on a check swing isn’t going to fall in….is it?!?!?!
Eventually, David Wright isn’t going to throw away the ball for the first out of the inning…right?!?!?!?
I just think a string of bad luck and bad pitching (even more so) should come to an end. The only problem is, the damage is already done. It may have cost them the division already.
TA09, I think part of this is the “pitch to contact” point I brought up below. You remove a lot of the luck factor if balls aren’t put in play.
Yeah and we all think the Phillies are not going to stay this hot but it doesn’t seem like they are going to lose again…
Replace “team” with “bullpen” and “heart” with “talent.”
If heart = bullpen, I agree. If heart = heart, I disagree.
I think you might be depressed. Do you harbor feelings of low self-worth?
Wow Matt in the previous post you clearly were showing some signs of being annoyed. This post blows it out of the water. I think it is interesting point that you say they should be wearing different uniforms and hats. This is true it really is.
I don’t know if a meeting is in order for the bullpen to yell and fire each other up or what but something has to be done. Maybe the “other” team needs to hold a group meeting and basically single out the bullpen and tell them to get their act together.
I feel like this is a good time to say that Aaron Heilman is utterly and completely useless and should not pitch to another batter this season unless the Mets are leading or trailing by 10 or more runs.
I have absolutely no confidence in this team. They start out hot with a game plan and then just seem to go through the motions. Journeymen players like Greg Norton own us and then the bullpen comes in and just can’t get an out for the life of them . I know I’m stating the obvious, but I just don’t see this team making the playoffs.
You’re not Wally Backman
I think that time was 4-5 appearances ago. He is a walking gasoline can.
This team deserves what it gets for continuing to use him.
Agreed.
Toasty, I think you should rethink your cruel stance on Heilman:
The way this season has gone, I would edit your post by deleting the words, “…leading or…”
The team also has to to have the look of a team that knows a sense of urgency…
Watching yesterday’s game they look tired and bored and disiterested… I’m sure that Lou Piniella will have his guys ready to play tonight…
For some reason I still feel confident that the mets will make the playoffs… If and when they do, they can’t expect to advance past the division series if Jerry keeps turning to that bullpen… Heilman should just go home and cry in the corner, I can’t even express the disappointment that is Aaron Heilman. The rest of the bullpen is just bad, plain and simple; most of them shouldn’t even be allowed to touch a baseball at this point. In other words, I completely agree with using starters for an inning at a time… its crunch time folks, time to pull out all the stops
On a side note, how obnoxious is Mike Gonzalez… holy crap I just want to punch him in the face… swaying back and forth like an idiot does not make you better, it makes you annoying… to everyone, including your teammates
I whole heartedly agree about Mike Gonzalez. I was at the double header at Shea last weekend. If (a) I had a good enough arm, and (b) they didn’t take the caps off of the soda bottles, I would have thrown one at him. Sooooo annoying.
The mets should have charged the mound, tackled him, and stacked beer cups on his head.
The way to get to Gonzalez is pretty simple, get on base and he is OUT OF HIS game. Unfortunately for the Mets yesterday Aaron Heilman rendered Wrights walk and Delgado’s HR meaningless.
He definitely was reminiscent of Mr. Myagi’s crain technique from Karate Kid… tough losses my friend – don’t know about the matching up pitchers and hitters for you guys.. nothing seems to go right w/ that BP.
whatever dude. guarantee you he pitches righty and blindfolded vs. you guys.
enjoy the champaign. see you in the nlcs.
Wow, I completely agree about Gonzalez! I think the best comment about him by far was when Ron Darling said it looked as if he was trying to cast a spell on the batter. He ended both games with this insane chest bump and primal scream too. I am a girl and wanted to go out there and kick him repeatedly. I can see how the rocking can be highly distracting for any batter, but hey, at least he can close it out.
I was at a meaningless game between the Nats and Braves at Turner Field a couple of weeks ago. (In Atlanta on business.) Got to see the whole Mike Gonzalez routine, including the preposterous music and video clips of him they play when he is entering the game.
Here’s the e-mail I sent to my brother from my seat:
“Mike Gonzalez needs a comebacker in the teeth to remind him that he is just Mike Gonzalez.”
No one in this bullpen has the onions to step up and deliver a 1-2-3 inning…
I think that this whole matchup thing is silly… Let a guy throw an inning and let him get out of his own mess…
Also, will Bobby Parnell please stand up… Too many of these low 90, change up slider guys… Need a hard thrower…
I agree, Janss. We have entirely too many “pitch to contact” types and no one who can blow people away. Stokes and Parnell are our best options for that. Heilman *could* be that type but he’s a mess. Otherwise we have no one that can blow people away in a big spot, leading to a lot of these bloops and bleeders becoming hits.
The Cubs have Wood, Marmol and Samarzfkdfajsdfja for the last 3 innings. All of these guys bring it.
“Samarzfkdfajsdfja”
Hahahahahah….Has anyone seen Heilman’s changeup? It was devastating in 2006.
Perhaps Heilman is tipping his pitches, because the changeup is what he’s giving up all the taters on.
Perhaps: Pouty face = fastball; even more Pouty face = changeup?
Im not sure how Maine is doin.. but if we have Pedro and Maine in the pen, I feel VERY comfortable with a playoff run…
Forget it man…. If this team is lucky enough to win the WC, they’ll be playing the Cubbies and there would be like a 2% shot at winning that series…
Meh. You never know. I bet people gave the Cardinals a 2% chance of winning the WS after they makde the playoffs two years ago. Just get in and see what happens.
I know football is a different sport, but look at the Giants superbowl run last year? There was no way they were going to beat the Cowboys, nor the Packers. And there was no way anyone was going to beat the Pats. And looked what happened? :)
Toasty is right, just get in first..
Once you are in, hit Control A Delete and start over cuz its a new season in October.
Lets go METS!
How about when Masato Yoshii beat Randy Johnson in Game 1 in 1999? Nobody saw that one coming.
that’s what I’m talking about – optimism!
They also had the heart of a guy like turk Wendell out of the pen… Now THERE is a guy with heart…
i actually do have optimism if the mets were to get in. the hot team wins in post season, NOT the best team. that’s a fact. BUT…the problem is, can we get in. at this point, my optimism turns into pessimism.
hey ya gotta believe 9 … that’s apple+a+delete for all us mac users
haha…mac user here
I think in a short series the mets match up well with anyone…Johan 2 times and Pelfrey and Perez…At that point you use your bullpen as sparingly as possible, which for the Mets works out great..
I wouldn’t count these guys out until they are mathematically out…come on have some faith!
What happened to ‘Ya Gotta Believe’?
the 07′ mets happened to “ya gotta believe.”
Doesnt get better than this….
Good analysis.
Well said Matt.
Finally someone gets it.
Having the starter available in the pen on throw day is excellent idea. The Yanks did it with Pettite last season. Jerry should implement it ASAP.
Here’s the other thing….no way in he** should Niese pitch on Sat. If they’re tied, do you want to risk this guy putting them in a hole for the final day? You’re dead on about throwing guys on 3 days rest.
I hope the Cubs put it on cruise control against us.
No chance. If they knock us out, they get to play one of those cruddy NL West teams in the first round instead of us. That’s motivation enough.
True, but I doubt they are going to push their pitchers too hard.
Harden and Zambrano will both be used sparingly. I should know; they’re both on my fantasy team.
And that suddenly gives you managerial control over them? Or does Lou call all the fantasy owners who have his players just to give them a heads up about what’s coming?
The chicaog Tribune has an interesting short article on the potential playoff opponents for the Cubbies and most people who voted on their site say they want the Cubs to play the Mets for an easy NLDS…
I didn’t get a call, but Lou did send me an email about resting Zambrano.
This isn’t Manuel’s fault. He can only do so much with what he has.
Did you say that about Willie?
I agree to some extent that it’s mostly Omar’s fault.
But still, Manuel’s bullpen man-agement is questionable.
How would you manage the bullpen? They all stink.
For one thing, I would have seen what Parnell and Rincon had a lot sooner than Manuel did. Then, after Parnell shows he can get guys out, I would have used him. Why not?
Second, why waste Ayala in the ninth inning with a 5-run lead when he 1) has an injury and 2) there is a day game the next day? Of course, Manuel calls on Ayala the next day, he has nothing, blows the lead, and the Mets lose the game. IMO, Manuel cost the Mets that game.
Third, why waste Smith by pitching him for a third consecutive game when there is a 6-run lead? Smith may have been burnt out by moves like that and that could have cost the Mets the game yesterday.
That’s for starters.
Somewhere Willie Randolph is smiling.
Willie is finally sipping the champagne….it tastes so much sweeter….
Willie was busy sliding into 2B last night at Yankee Stadium.
C’mon. Don’t even play that game. Manuel has proven himself to be ten times the manager that Willie was. (Which admittedly isn’t saying much). Just look at how many times the Mets have bouncd back from soul-crushing losses since Jerry took over. Under Willie they would just curl up into a ball and die after losses like that. If they fall short this year, it won’t be because of their manager, it will be because of their bullpen.
Manuel has proven himself to be ten times the manager that Willie was.
BS. Pure BS.
You were obviously one of Willie’s biggest detractors and now you’ve got on blinders when it comes to Manuel.
The bullpen was as bad or worse last September as it is now, but last year it was Willie’s fault according to you … but this year none of it is Manuel’s fault.
BS. You can’t have it both ways.
I happen to like both managers as individuals but think both are just mediocre at managing a game.. Both are weak when it comes to small ball and in-game man-agement.
I will agree Manuel is a much more funny and pleasant guy and better with the media … but as for managing a game, he has no edge on Willie.
I’ll address a few of your points on this thread:
“The bullpen was as bad or worse last September as it is now, but last year it was Willie’s fault according to you … but this year none of it is Manuel’s fault.”
You seem to be forgetting that Willie had a closer last year. Jerry has no closer and a bunch of has-beens and castoffs to work with. The bullpen is much, much worse this year. You lose any credibility points you might’ve had by saying that last year’s pen was “bad or worse” than this year’s.
“[Willie] was not the cause of last year’s collapse, just like Manuel is not the cause of this year’s mini-collapse.”
First of all, Willie was not the 100% cause of last year’s collapse – it was a true joint effort by everyone wearing a Met uniform except maybe David Wright. But Willie basically did nothing but sit on his hands and talk about champagne.
As for this year….if the Mets don’t make the playoffs, this will not be a “collapse”!!! They were 7 games and reeling not too long ago. It’s amazing that they’ve made it this far. In other words, if they don’t end up making the playoffs, Jerry will not have presided over any “collapse.” So the analogy completely falls apart.
**7 games OUT.
You seem to be forgetting that Willie had a closer last year.
No, he didn’t have one all last year. Wagner took himself out of action at the end of last year for awhile due to back spasms. And he faded down the stretch too. So it’s not as if there was a lights out closer for last September. Seems you are the one with the memory issues.
And talk about has beens. Sele, Mota, and Show last year were no better than what Manuel has to work with now.
The bullpen was just as bad last year. And if Willie was the cause of that (which the likes of you claim) then Manuel has to be the cause of what you consider to be a much much worse pen. You can’t have it both ways.
But Willie basically did nothing but sit on his hands and talk about champagne.
More BS. What did you want him to do. Go over to the Bronx and kidnap the Yankee bullpen?
if the Mets don’t make the playoffs, this will not be a “collapse”!!!
BS again. If the Mets don’t make the playoffs, that means they will have lost 5 games in the loss column to the Phillies in the same amount of time they lost 7 last year. How is 5 that much different from 7?
It is at best a mini-collapse.
The analogy is perfectly valid.
One more thing — last year Willie didn’t have Johan, Pelfrey, nor all 4 of the key offensive players playing well. If anything, Manuel has an advantage, especially in regards to the rotation.
“So it’s not as if there was a lights out closer for last September.”
I didn’t say Wagner pitched well. But he still pitched, to the tune of 30+ saves. You’re telling me if you had to choose between 2007 Wagner and 2008 Ayala to close games, it’d be a toss up? That’s funny.
“And if Willie was the cause of that (which the likes of you claim)…”
Stop saying what you think I “claim.” I don’t “claim” Willie “caused” last year’s pen to be bad. Find me a quote where I said that. Why not go back and read what I wrote.
“The bullpen was just as bad last year.”
You have GOT to be kidding me with this argument. We’ve got Brian Stokes as our setup man, Luis Ayala closing claims, and Aaron Heilman with a 5+ ERA, and you think last year’s pen was “just as bad.” Outrageous.
“What did you want him to do. Go over to the Bronx and kidnap the Yankee bullpen?”
You’re changing the issue here. Willie did not motivate his team last year, or the first part of this year. I don’t know how much more proof you need of that. They played stupid, disinterested, and sloppy baseball.
“last year Willie didn’t have Johan.”
That’s a good one. He had Johan for two and a half months this year and went .500 with him.
claims=games. That’s a weird typo if there ever was one.
How does Willie’s a$$ taste? You sure do kiss it a lot. The guy was a dead manager. He’s gone. Maybe he’ll get another shot somewhere and you can go root for him there.
Wow, tidewater. That ranks right up there with saying I’m Willie’s mom or dad or his wife or Willie himself.
Do you like Manuel’s a-s-s? Taste good?
Yeah, I agree Willie was dead because the media buried him. But what does that have to do with the fact that he was not the cause of last year’s collapse, just like Manuel is not the cause of this year’s mini-collapse?
Willie was dead because he refused to change the way he did a single thing. I do like Manuel, but if you want to go back and count the a$$ kissing comments you’ve made about Willie and compare them to the ones I’ve only even mildly supported Manuel and beyond, I’m more than happy to compare.
Willie may not have been the cause of last year’s collapse, but he stubbornly refused to adapt last year and this year. He was a lousy manager. And all those instances of his inability to double switch correctly which were smiled off in ‘06 look a whole lot different now.
The man was too stubborn to manage. Pure and simple. He was not buried by the media. He was buried by hubris.
No. He was dead because the media buried him after the collapse. And go ahead. Go back and compare comments. I bet you’ve made just as many “a$$ kissing” comments defending Manuel as I’ve made on Willie (in the same time period).
Willie and Manuel are essentially the same manager. If you think Willie was lousy, than Manuel is lousy too. For every mistake you think Willie made, Manuel has done likewise.
Willie was buried by the media … and fans like you.
Again, go ahead and go back and compare comments. I’ll be waiting to see what you come up with.
Tell you what, when the season’s over, I’ll be happy to compare. And you will lose.
I don’t sing the praises of Manuel very often.
Also “fans like you,” I didn’t want Willie fired after last year because, though I did think he mismanaged the pitching staff, ultimately I thought it was the pitchers in the pen ho let it get away.
I did support his firing this year because a) the team was severely underperforming, and b) he didn’t do a thing about it.
Fine. I’m confident you’ll lose.
I don’t make “a$$ kissing” comments about Willie. Maybe you mistake comments bashing Omar or last year’s pen for one’s kissing Willie’s “a$$” but if that’s the way you are, then that’s your problem. It just shows how much hatred you had for him and how defensive you get about Manuel.
I just took a look at the previous thread. Man, you sure did a lot of Manuel “a$$ kissing” there. I’m already off to a head start.
And don’t mistake my own position on Manuel. He’s a likable funny guy. But I’m not against him. However, I’m on the fence whether he should return next year. I’d like to see how he manages the pitchers over the next week before making up my mind.
Up to now, he’s an average mediocre manager in terms of in-game strategy. Just like Willie was.
When the Mets blow this, because I have no faith that they will hold on, there is no way that Manuel should return.
I disagree, I think he’s earned a shot. They could’ve completely gone into the tank after they fell 7 games back, and they fought all the way back. Plus I love the way they’ve bounced back from tough losses, which I think is a reflection of him. If they miss the playoffs, it will be 100% on the shoulders of the laughable bullpen, not the manager.
Hey can we stop citing easy schedules down the stretch for future years? Easy schedules have become hard schedules. It is downright ridiculous. Every team wants to end their season on a high note so they play hard the last few weeks. ESPECIALLY AGAINST THE METS
It sure seems easy for the Phillies. How much you want to bet that the Phills win 5 of 6 this week?
I have to wonder about our advance scouting and game plans. This team also lacks a get in your face well respected leader like so many championship teams have.
Team is terrible. I never have any faith in keeping a lead anymore. Someone needs to throw some chairs around and call out some of these bums in the pen. We cannot rely on starting pitching to get it done every night….games where starters have 2/3 run leads in the 7th should be a W cause one of these days a starter is gonna get lit up.
Back to back innings with first and second and no outs and not scoring is also pathetic. The lack of execution and keeping the order moving on this team (for many years now) is downright sickening.
The thing is, at what cost are you pushing all your starters out there, especially on short rest? The team has a solid core, that will be intact for the next several years, in Wright/Reyes/Beltran/Santana/Pelfrey. The foundation for long term success is there. By pushing the starters, particularly Pelfrey, you jeapordize the potential of the following years. It is a very stick situation, and thats why I think Jerry has been somewhat conservative in regards to the measures Matt mentioned.
yup, you don’t want to burn out the starters to the point that they really have no shot in the NLDS and risk guys health in the process.
I’m not even talking about this year though…I’m stressing more on the future. Your point on this year isn’t missed though. It is a flawed team anyway, with regards to the bullpen, which will more than likely undermine the team if it does make it to October.
There are three games to play before Pedro’s start. I’ll a-s-s-ess the situation when we get there…
Matt you’re just as guilty of looking ahead and Pedro and Joe Smith with a comment like that. Win tonight’s game, then think about tomorrow.
The Blue Jays and Brewers didnt fare well sending the starters out there on three days rest, and I doubt the Mets would either. I know its contradictory to one game at a time, but I think you have to take your chances with Niese and Pedro because it gives Santana, Pelfrey, and Perez a better chance to win on regular rest.
Knight pitched well enough as a starter to be a good long man option, but Manual has to be quick with the hook and he hasnt shown that he will do that.
Wonder if Castillo’s gonna be in the lineup tonight….
I would be inclined to put him in. He has a career .935 OPS vs. Marquis.
Luis Castillo in the lineup=a loss. Look at the numbers. Having him in the seventh hole is killing this team. His lack of range is also killing us. At one time he was an exceptional player, but not anymore. I like Omar but that signing alone should cost him his job. Talk about one player handcuffing a team.
Biggest problem though is that Argenis Reyes hits like crap too. But at least he gives you a bit of range.
Castillo is better offensively than Reyes. That bases loaded walk that Castillo got yesterday – no chance Reyes would have done that. Reyes would have tapped out to the pitcher on the second pitch of the at bat.
and then we would have …. gulp… lost! Oh, wait…
First of all, Castillo didn’t walk there. He looked at strike 3. The ump didn’t call it, but you know it, I know it, the pitcher and catcher know it, and Castillo knows it. In fact, Gary, Keith, and Ron said the same thing. That was no bases loaded walk or a good eye. That was a blown call.
I have never seen as many leadoff walks given up by the pen in my entire life. its sickening.
There is no answer. We have to go with what we have and see what happens. Maybe the Brewers will keep losing. I doubt it though.
It will go somewhat like this….
Mets will at the very best split with the Cubs. The Brewers will sweep the Pirates (11-1 so far). That will leave both teams tied going into the last series. The Cubs will have nothing at all to play for against the Brewers those final 3, and the Marlins love to torture the Mets. Therefore, Phills win the NL East, Brewers are the Wild Card, and we are again waiting until next year.
I don’t think the Brewers will sweep the Pirates. That 11-1 record came earlier in the season when the Brewers were on fire and beating everyone. They are not the same team now.
If I’m in the Brewers clubhouse, I feel like I got a big reprieve yesterday. It can only help them refocus, not hurt them this week.
If I were in the Met clubhouse last year, I would have felt like I got a big reprieve behind John Maines 14 strikeout game and Miguel Olivo fight which brought them into a flat footed tie for first with Glavine going in the final game.
actually the Bucs are much better at home – close to .500
I expect them to win at least 1.
Well Dr., I believe you need to see a Dr. yourself. The Brewers are at home. ;-)
Series is at Miller Park…
I can see Milwaukee going 4-2 this week…
Which means to tie we have to go 3-4, which I think might even be a stretch…
ah thank you metsrbest for correcting me. Yeah in that case the Brew will sweep.
It was time to put Pelfrey, Johan and Ollie on three days rest a week or two ago. That’s fine if they do it now, but it still doesn’t help the bullpen get outs. And I don’t care that we have the most or second most runs scored in the league. The offense needs to step up and score some more runs instead of leaving 270 runners on base each game.
So in one sentence, you acknowledge that the offense has scored a lot of runs. In the next, you say they need to score more runs. Well, which is it?
BTW… 6 runs = a game you should win.
They’re not mutually exclusive. While they may have scored a bunch of runs, you and \I both know how inconsistent the offense has been. 9 runs one game, 0 the next, and its been that way all season long. So yes, they’ve scored a lot but need to score more given how the bullpen has been pitching.
I just don’t buy that the bullpen is the only problem. It’s a big one, maybe the biggest, but when you hit as poorly as the Mets have at time with RISP, it doesn’t make things any easier for an already overworked bullpen.
It’s a cliche, but for good reason – this is a team sport, you win and lose as a team. 6 runs should be enough to win a game, of course. But for a team with our bullpen, it’s not always going to be enough.
I would take the bullpen being half as bad as it is now, with the exact same offense we run out there day to day. I would sign up for that right now.
Matt’s comments about the bullpen are well-taken, but there was a post yesterday that explained how the entire club gets brainlock in important situations — offensively, defensively, and among the starters. Cases in point — little late scoring, bases loaded problems, and on and on. You can scream and yell at the bullpen, and they are a huge, potentially season-killing unit, but let’s not forget that this is a team sport, and we have an offense that made Jon Lannan, Odalis Perez, and Jorge Campillo look like Feller, Spahn, and Koufax. We do not have “two teams.” We have ONE team, and right now, it’s awful.
Not to mention they knocked the starter out in the 2nd inning and could not score 1 run off the Braves pen until the 9th inning, when it was too little too late.
Good point. Precisely. Overall numbers look fine, just like Scott Schoeneweis’ ERA looks fine. Situationally, however, with pennant race pressure on, they choke. It’s very possible the problems with offense stem in part from lack of confidence in the bullpen, but that’s impossible to know. What we see is failure in key situations again, and again, and again.
While I don’t disagree with you regarding the bullpen, I think you also have to point the finger at the inconsistent offense. Last weekend against the Braves at home, they scored what? 11 runs in three games? Not horrible, but they need to score more runs. It’s just that simple.
Satruday, we scored two runs off someone named Jorge Campanillo, and both of the runs were driven in when Pedro closed his eyes, swung as hard as he could and miraculously made contact.
Yesterday they let more than a few scoring chances slip away.
Rather than screw with the starters any more, how about scoring more runs? It won’t solve everything, but I’ll feel a lot better handing off a 5 run lead to this bullpen than a 2 run lead. Or a one run lead.
Thank you for someone else getting this. It’s not been said enough. All I hear is bullpen, bullpen, bullpen. And while the pen has stunk, the offense has not always been a treat.
Egg-zactly. My post above says the same thing. Offense picks the worst times to grind to a halt. Yesterday, all of two players could hit after the first inning.
But you gotta give credit where its due. Campillo didnt make to many mistakes against us and all the pitchers we have faced from the bullpen have not either. Kind of hard for the offense to do their job if the pitching does theirs. Good pitching beats good offense.
Omar needs to go… this bullpen is on him… we’ve drafted college closers in the early rounds of the draft and they’re not even good enough to help us now?
Not making a trade at the deadline? That’s great Omar.. all the teams around you get better and you do nothing… for a team with the 2nd highest payroll in the entire sport?
Disgusting.. simply disgusting.
First off, stop blaming the bullpen. The offense failed to score twice in a row when they had 2 on and no out. That is BEYOND unacceptable.
Second, stop throwing Heilman under the bus. He pitched well on Friday and that should count for something.
Third, if Jerry doesn’t take out Pelfrey then, you’d say “I wonder what would have happened if Jerry took out an obviously tired Pelfrey earlier.”
Then you’d probably note that Alou went 3 for 4 in the loss or that Oliver Perez is righty.
Nah, I think I’ll just blame the bullpen.
Stop blaming the bullpen? That’s like saying “stop blaming O.J.” We all know who the culprit is here!
I love the “stop blaming the bullpen” posts. Let’s transpose that philosophy into real life for a minute:
“Hey, stop picking on the kid with the learning disability, he doesn’t know any better.”
Sad.
The problem with starting pitchers on 3 days rest is they won’t be able to go as long as they normally do meaning we will need more outs from the bullpen in their starts. It is not worth it.
All I am asking is a split with Chicago. I think if we split with them we will be in good shape to grab the WC in the final weekend. Maybe we move Santana up to Saturday and Ollie up to Sunday. It all starts tonight and as usual 7:10p can’t get here soon enough
Getting a win tonight is important so we go a full 2 games up on the Brewers and be 1 game back in the East and have Johan going the next day. Going 4-3 could be cutting close though, I think 5-2 is what they need to do this.
I’m going to be drinking a lot this week.
And the odds of the Mets going 5 and 2 against the Cubs and the Marlins are what? A trillion to 1? They couldn’t even go 4 and 3 against the Nationals and Braves! lol
We are a pretty solid home team this year (unlike last season), so I have some confidence in that. But yeah, they still should have at least gone 4-3 on this last road trip.
They should have gone 5-2 on that road trip… FOr them to go 3-4 I think will take an act of God…
So critical to win tonight… Cannot lose when the direct opposition is off (MIL)… Cannot drop a game in the loss column when they are idle…
You’re right… the only reason the phillies have gotten away w/ it is due to the bullpen hanging in for the cleanup… don’t know how long it will last, but the short rest only puts a bandaid on a soon to erode sore…
Phils are going to go 6-0 this week… Not to worry, the Braves and Nats will realize they aren’t playing the Mets and do their jobs…
Pedro is the last guy I want to see moved to the bullpen. It seems like he lets the first batter he faces on base in every start. That wouldn’t work out of the bullpen.
Plus, he takes forever to get warmed up. This means he either comes into the game before he’s completely warm and ends up throwing an ineffective 82 mph fastball, or he throws so many pitches in the penn to warm up that he can only pitch for us once every 3 days at best.
I like the sound of Pelfrey pitching an inning out of the penn on days when he would normally be doing a bullpen session. He’s a big strong kid…he can handle a little extra work, even if he’s already in uncharted territory as far as innings pitched goes.
Pedro was being kind offering himself to the bullpen. The guy would have to start warming up two innings in advance and you can’t get him up and down. Warm him up and use him when he’s ready or sit him down and then forget about using him.
That combined with Pedro’s first inning performance in the past five games or 4 runs, 2 runs, 0 runs, 1 run and 3 runs does not make him a candidate for the bullpen.
Solutions…maybe throw the starters longer, keep doing what we’re doing, throw the young guys, throw Neise in the pen beginning Thursday.
Look this team has done well to get 86 wins at this point with injuries to Church, Pedro, Alou, Tatis, Castro, Castillo (whether you like him or not), Maine, Easley, Wagner, etc.
Granted this doesn’t excuse the bullpens horrible performance, but given the list above would you expect this team to have 86 wins at this point in the season if I told you that was what was going to happen on March 30.
Personally, given the list above, you can make an argument that – in general – this team has overachieved (except the pen) but isn’t baseball a “sum of the parts” type of sport.
Live with it. It’s called a pennant race.
Well put Matt. I think the growing sentiment of anger resonates in all of us. Twenty-nine blown saves. 29. 29!!!
Just a few less and this team is coasting to a division win. Just a slightly better bullpen and this team is one of the favorites in the playoffs.
But no, every reliever Jerry throws out there on a day to day basis is GARBAGE.
And you know what, some of the blame DOES fall on Manuel. A lot of it falls on Omar, most of it falls on the actual relievers…but some on Manuel too. This Willie-esque strategy of continuing to throw out the same failure-prone guys day after day is wearing thin. As Matt said, it’s time to put a start in on his bullpen session day; it’s time to use Parnell more often; hell – it’s time to call up some scrub from the minors and see if he can help this team make it to the playoffs. It doesn’t even matter; but SOMETHING has to be done differently. Because clearly this “strategy”, which has been in place for 155 games has NEVER worked and will NEVER work.
So **** you Show, **** you Heilman, **** you Feliciano, **** you Joe Smith. and **** you Sanchez.
You’re making the starters worse by putting pressure on them, you’re making the hitters worse by putting pressure on them, you’re making the defense worse by putting pressure on it – you’re completely destroying this team.
Lastly…Let’s Go Mets!
“So **** you Show, **** you Heilman, **** you Feliciano, **** you Joe Smith. and **** you Sanchez.”
-wow how quickly we forget that because of those guys we are in the position we are in to make the playoffs.
I agree that the bullpen woes has put ALOT of pressure on the offense and SP. Manuel has to understand that the people we have in the bullpen are specialist with the execption of a few. I dont know how many times manuel has to get burned to understand this concept. You want to go out 6 times in a game..at least do it the right way and match up like you say your going to do.
I just can’t wait to see the Braves mail it in now for 3 more with the Phillies…while fat Bobby managed these games like they were the playoffs.
Not that we didn’t just piss away our chance at beating the Phillies.
Hey the braves just stole like 3 games in the last 2 weeks from us. I dont know what bobby ment by “helping the mets out” but somehow gotta believe it was not in a good way. We just gotta take care of business because OBVIOUSLY we cannot count on any help from anyone else to beat the phillies
“I just can’t wait to see the Braves mail it in now for 3 more with the Phillies…while fat Bobby managed these games like they were the playoffs.”
Well, I’m sure Bobby wanted to win for the fans…it was the last home series for them.
That being said, he’d better not roll over and die for the series with the Phillies.
You guys are missing the big picture. The METS were the ones who rolled over and died this weekend.
Good morning Mets fans,
I’ve been asked to provide my services to the good people on this site to help them in the next few days.
Being in a pennant race is a stressful time for us all. I remember 1987 and how that all went down – jesus I had guys on the couch 24/7. But I digress.
It’s my hope that my being here will provide some comfort to those who wish to vent. I also hope to be able to help those who need it – different coping skills and ways to express your feelings without causing harm to others.
Basically, I want everyone, right now to take a deep breath, relax and get in touch with your inner orange and blue.
The clock is ticking. Now what did you want to talk about?
good luck doc….
heres a tip..avoid trolls like furioso
In my line of work I’ve had to deal with much worse. Perhaps he can work out his issues here.
im pullin for ya doc….but dont count on it
The voice of sanity.
And have you not been a fan and watched these games all year and last? If yes, how are you not pulling your hair out like the rest of us?
Yes, most of us realize baseball is a game. However, we take it one step more and most live and die with this team. All we’re asking for is a chance to get into the post season. And last two games, have most of us standing on that ledge – LOL !
For some reason I feel strangely confident (delusional) about playing the Cubs despite what they did to us earlier in the year. The trio of the Nats, Marlins and Braves are what frightened me more on the schedule.
well i think we will get some sort of indicator about how we stack up against them this week. I dont think it will be the best idicator as the cubs already clinched and im sure lou wants his people healthy but we can get a glimpse. Besides we play better against .500 teams anyway right?
Yeah, if we get a W tonight, have Santana going tomorrow followed by OP, who we know pitches great against good teams, we could definitely take 3 out of 4 from the Cubs and have a shot at a sweep. Tonight’s game and Pedro’s on the Thursday are the ones I’m most worried about.
dont think its delusional to have confidance in your team also
It is not a delusional state. It is based on the fact that this Mets team actually plays better against good teams and good pitching. This is not least year. That was the past. Its time to move on and I think this team will do it.
I’m curious. Are most people in the “do whatever it takes, just make it to the playoffs” mindset or the “division leader or bust” mindset?
im more of a do whatever it takes..would love to take the division mindset. As long as theres october baseball in shea, i dont care how it happens.
I just want the playoffs. The division would be sweet, especially what happened last year, but I’m not going to be upset and not root for the team if they get in through Wild Card after all that has transpired this season.
I would say – do whatever it takes to win each game, one at a time. All that’s important is winning at many of these final games as possible.
I like this spirit – this “can-do” philosophy will take you a long way. I believe it can happen.
Just get in.
Division is over as far as I’m concerned… It’s playoff or bust…
Bust will mean this team will look VERY different next season…
Prediction – we will sweep the Cubbies! They’ll have a nice post-celebration hangover for tonights game. I can see Wright and Reyes picking up their game now at home in this final stretch. Lets get the division!
JYNX ALERT JYNX ALERT!!!
lol im kidding. Love the optimism tho
I don’t know about sweep, but I don’t trust the Cubs. Not now, and not in the playoffs. Playing at home will make a difference.
Even if we lose, a difference will be made in that Manual probably won’t pitch Heilman, simply for fear of him being murdered by 50 thousand angry Mets fans.
Its time to “pull a LaRussa” and have the bullpen pitch the first three innings of the game and then bring the starter in to “finish” it off. This will give the offense more time to make up the runs that the bullpen inevitably give up.
no its not time for that. The situation is bad but not that bad. We have a offense that is capable of making up the differance in the bullpen woes.
Not a bad idea, but I don’t know about the “giving the offense more time” stuff. They have 9 innings every game to score enough runs and they often fail to do so.
Let’s see Parnell start a game and go two or three innings, or until he gets squashed, whichever comes first.
The only problem with the bullpen starting a game is that so many of our relievers are specialists, only capable of getting righties or lefties out, but rarely both.
Every game is a must-win… Tonght’s game is the most important of the season…
Brewres are off so this is where we make up that game in hand… You cannot lose a game in he loss column when your opposition is off…
I do not expect the Phils to lose again this season… The Braves will lie down and die for them as will the Nats and the Phils are playing WAY too good right now… Every inning they force a scoring opportunity…
Yeah, like the Braves lied down and died for the Mets, right?
The point is that we just have to go out and win games, and not worry about how the Phillies or Brewers are doing. Worry about that when the season is over. Just win now and see where you end up.
agreed. If anything these last few games in sept have taught us is you cannot depend on anybody to help the mets out by handing philly a loss. We have to do our job and win.
Some thoughts:
Get in any way you can, despite the disappointment of watching the Phillies celebrate a division title.
Everyone please stop expecting the Cubs to mail it in. They can be beaten, but expect to see most of the regulars out there, at least for the first 5 or 6 innings each night. They will not roll over. The Mets will need to step up, you know, like they have failed to do against the Braves and Nats.
Please add me to the roster of the “Run Heilman Out of Town” club. I have resisted long enough. You had to appreciate the special guest appearance he made yesterday, once the game was already given away, just to add insult to injury in the form of two “meaningless extra runs.” You know, the two runs that actually ended up deciding the game.
Yes I think Mr. Heilman should lay low for a while for the sake of his own health. Perhaps I can prescribe something for him to simulate the effects of some illness.
don’t the cubs have a pretty good pen? and, don’t relievers have to be used regularly to stay effective?
nobody is saying the cubs will “mail it in” as im sure they want to get the best record possible but post season pressure does not apply to that club anymore. Lou would go with a healthy team for the postseason than naught.
Dirty, I agree that they are exhaling right now, but I worry that they will be even looser out there now that they’ve clinched.
oo yea no doubt they will be loose but they still need to win.
why was my last post blocked?
i’ll try this again…
the pen is so awful, how can we expect them to get it together now after basically two seasons of horrifying poor “execution”? winning anything even if they back into the playoffs seems unlikely. it’s depressing.
okay, omar, you had your chance before to fix the pen, here comes (probably) your last chance this offseason.
do something!
Trust me casey with the way these last two seasons ended he will do something. Starting with getting a closer and he must do everything he can to get heilman out of here. Those two moves already would go along way to repairing the bp
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” — Albert Einstein.
Forget Mike Schmidt and the team bulletin board. This quote should be engraved on the Mets’ bullpen phone.
Once can only a-s-s-ume that Jerry is trotting Heilman out there with the hope that he takes a comebacker off the leg and has to go on the DL. Then the team can replace him on the postseason roster with someone else from the 40-man.
A-s-s-umming they get there.
Hey Matt, any chance you’ll be upgrading the filter on this blog? Seems kind of silly that in order to avoid getting blocked we always have to type “a-s-s-ume” – kind of calls MORE attention to the letters, I would say…
Last winter during the Santana sweepstakes frenzy, I said on this blog that it wouldn’t matter one bit whether we get Santana or not if we don’t improve the bullpen. I hate to say I told you so, but…
Even if we make it to the playoffs, I am not convinced we could shut down a team like Chicago or hold of Philly with their big bats in the late innings. A strong bullpen is a must in the playoofs, unless we expect to be like the White Sox in 05 and pitch 4 consecutive complete games, which I don’t see happening with our rotation.
Let’s get this straight – no team is going to lay down for us. We have to play well in order to get into the playoffs. Even if the Cubs trot out Ronny Cedeno, Reed Johnson, and Daryle Ward, they could still beat us with that lineup. Hell, the Mets consistently lose to pitchers like Jorge Campillo, John ”Imagine All The People” Lannan, and Odalis Perez – what makes you think a team of backups would fare any worse than starters? If anything the Mets play better against good teams.
The problem with the Mets is that, if they score a bunch of runs like the 4 they scored in the first two innings yesterday, they get complacent and don’t hit for the rest of the game. How many times has this happened this yesterday? Look at the 7-0 lead in Philly a few weeks ago! There is absolutely NO reason they couldn’t get hits against Quadruple-A pitchers such as Charlie Morton and Vladimir Nunez yesterday. These guys are not Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, and Avery – give me a break. Stop blowing your load so early in the damn game!
As for the bullpen, Manuel needs to realize that these guys are incredibly overworked. Heilman, Feliciano, and all of these guys have been pitching every other day for the past three years. There is no way that they could continue to pitch at a high level with their arms as tired as they are. It’s time to get Bobby Parnell, Ricardo Rincon, and all of these guys some bigger roles. Their arms aren’t incredibly tired – there’s a reason why Brian Stokes and Luis Ayala have been far better than these guys in the past two months. Plus, every single team in the national league knows what they are getting with our ”regular misfits” because they’ve seen them so many times since 2006. It makes perfect sense to me…
great post……the idea tha heilman and schoe are every in the game is maddening……
Yeah, what’s the point of filling out your 40 man roster with extra pitchers if you never plan on using them. I believe the first words out of my mouth when Manuel went to the pen yesterday were: “time for the wheels to fall off”.
I wish I could stop watching the games, but my inner masochist always prevails.
Why do you think Pelfrey is starting to run out of gas? He has pitched too many innings as is. Go much over that 100 pitch mark at this point and you are risking his next start too.
There are only 2 guys in our rotation that can be counted on for 3 days rest and they should be doing it. Santana and Perez.
If you want to pitch Pelfrey from the pen on his scheduled bullpen day so be it but he can’t be a 3 days rest guy.
agreed real. Some people have gotten very confortable with pelf and forget that this really is his first full season on the mets. We are over his IP and are gambling with his future at this point. Like you said we can take our shot with ollie and santana but thats it.
Yeah, good point, I thought about that yesterday when i saw he only was hitting 92 on the gun. He can usually hit 95 or 96 and sits around 94.
You know what’s even scarier, if the Cubs sit a lot of their regulars, that means late in the game if its close he can bring Soriano, Lee, Ramirez off the bench to face the Mets bullpen. I almost would rather them start the game with that alternative.
yea I mean look at this weekend versus the braves they were playing their AAAA lineup and we looked lost…….Bottom line is I truly think yesterday was the straw the broke the camels back.
Id like to say something to those people who would say when we blew a game in April May or June that “its only Month X”. These games wouldnt be as crucial if we won those games. See the Cubs and the Angels, they won those games early on so the games in September were not all high stress games.
of course…..so many apologists forgot about last year and just chalked those horrendous losses up as “part of the game”…..well they aren’t just part of the game………no other team has had such a disparity between its offense and starting pitching and its bullpen……no other team. we have the most runs scored in the NL, and one of the best starting staffs in all of baseball. yet, we will miss the playoffs.
well if you think we will miss the playoffs then good we dont have to look foward to you posting anymore nonsense. Its one thing to have the best starting staffs on paper and to actually have the best starting staff in real life(you can ask the yankees on their experiance with that).
I realize some people want to also point the finger at our offense but, consider this….who is it that acutally blows the games? Is it our offense who only scores 2 to 4 runs or our bullpen that lets up 4 in one inning?
Yes, it would be great if we could score 4 5 or even 8 runs a game but the reality is, we can’t. There are games that we’re only going to score 2 runs and our BP will be called upon to hold a 2-1 lead. That’s baseball, that’s the game.
And I for one have NO confidence that our BP would hold a 2-1 lead. Doesn’t matter if they pitched only the 9th or 7th, 8th, whatever. You get my point.
Our offense’s job is to get the lead. Our BP’s job is to hold that lead. It doesn’t matter of it’s 1, 2, or 4 runs. Look at the stats. We’ve got one of the worst BP’s in terms of blown saves/leads.
Right now we’re in the position we’re in b/c of our BP.
Wow, 29 blown saves or maybe holds? Either way, give us back 9 of those and think where this team would be?
My point exactly. Enough about “the offense needs to do their jobs too”. 29 blown saves/holds is unacceptable. Completely unacceptable. That’s the BP just not being able to do their job, flat out.
Being a relief pitcher is a tough job, but that’s the job. You come in, you get the hold and shut down the other team. If you can’t do that, don’t bother showing up.
At this point, it’s hard to tell if playing the last 7 games at home is an advantage or not. The crowd is filled with a silent dread through most of the home games. Like “Here we go again”.
It should be an exciting week though, I’m looking forward to being glued to the screen for every game.
The bullpen is horrible, and I agree that any new blood should be out there pitching. I’d rather lose with some 18 year old scrub fresh up from New Orleans than lose with Heilman one more time. Heilman should be sent home at this point, just seeing his face in the ball park must cost the Mets 2-3 runs each game. He’s a joke.
Anyway, at least it’s exciting, better than being eliminated already. And at least we don’t have to listen to Willie’s BS like last year. In case anyone forgot, the Mets were under .500 under Willie this year, so this playoff race is pure gravy thanks to Manuel getting the club winning again.
Even if they blow it, this hasn’t been as bad a year as 2007.
Let’s go Mets…
It may be more exciting than already being eliminated, but I’d be getting a lot more sleep if they had already mailed it in.
Yesterdays game was an absolute killer. They win that one, they still actually have destiny in their own hands. Now even if they go 5-2 the Phils would have to go 3-3 just to get the tiebreaker divsision win. I can’t imagine the Phils will slip up like that. I think they’ll hold on and get the wildcard but its as much about the Brewers as it is about the Mets. I just don’t like the belief that making it is fine and makes up for last season. For me if they blow the division but win the wild card and then get throttled by the Cubs in round one, I’m not going to look back and think of this season as a rousing success.
I get it with this bullpen, realistically its hard to imagine they can last very long even if they win the division but backing in just doesn’t wipe off the stain of last years collapse and this year horrific bullpen disasters.
100% agreed…..yesterday was the day we lost the division…….it is pathetic however that we can never EVER get to the other team’s bullpen. it’s almost like i’d rather the starter play 8 innings!
Here’s an idea… since the offense always seems to score early… why don’t we have a reliever start the game? The bullpen can go the first three… then bring in the starter… that way the starter only has to go 6 innings max…
also, at this point, i’d rather spend ALL our offseason focus on the bullpen……maybe trading in a salary dump for randy winn for LF….but otherwise all bullpen. maybe this means signing Burnett or Sheets and moving Maine to the closers role, and signing Fuentes to setup, with Parnell, Stokes, Ayala, Smith and Feliciano.
The Phils only scored 3 & 5 runs respectively over the last two games in Florida, and only a total 3 runs after the fourth inning in the two games combined, and yet managed to win both because their bullpen did the job in the latter part of the game. You can go on and on about adding on tack on runs but if your bullpen consistently blows two run leads over the last 2-3 innings of the game, 7 since the All Star break, you’ll never make the playoffs.
when our pen blows it, they go the extra mile and put the game out of reach. see this sunday, and last sunday.
is there anyone in this pen you would KEEP next year, and what role would they have?
I would keep
Joe smith-for R situations
Feliciano or Show-for L situations
Stokes-Crossover long relief
Ayala-Setup crossover
Duaner-Setup crossover(i want to give him one more year to prove himself as this is his first year since the surgury and accident)
Parnell/trade reliever-Take over aarons role in the bp as i hope he will be traded
Closer-ask lidges 36 perfect save ops (and the phillies 70-0 record leading after 8th inning) if closers are overrated(our bullpen as blown 29 games)
i would put niese in the pen after tonight and pitch johan and pelf short their last starts.
i don’t think pelf can possibly pitch short more than once. he barely has any gas left as it is.
what do you gain pitching Johan and Pelfrey short at this point?
If you get to Saturday and Sunday and the first is a must win, yes you do it, but beyond that do not pitch on short rest to avoid losing games, it is a recipe for losing games. Do it when there is no other choice, not before.
Let’s put all this in perspective. If at the end of May I would tell everyone that the Mets would be 1.5 games behind the Phillies and 1.5 games ahead of Milwaukee for the Wild Card I don’t think there would be one person on this site that would not have taken that proposition. There is a reason why the baseball season is 162 games, the cream rises, the crap sinks and the mediocre stay in the middle. It is now been proven for the last two seasons that this team is nothing more than slightly above average and we just have to except that going into the last week. Hopefully, we can catch one of those streaks that propelled the Rockies last year and the Cards the year before.
That being said, Omar better reconstruct this whole pitching staff next year. There is not one person that I would have back on this team next year probably except Joe Smith.
And with John Maine’s propensity of only going 5 innings a start I would strongly consider making him the closer of the future. I don’t think Eddie Kunz is anywhere near ready to take that position.
I would bring Ayala back… as a 7th or 8th inning guy. Smith, too. And I would bring… okay, that’s it.
You really think Minaya does not know he has a bullpen problem?
Consider what the Mets had to give up to get Roberto Hernandez two years ago?
And there is ZERO reason to believe John Maine would be any better at closing than Kunz based on what we have seen from either of them in the situation which is to say nothing.
agreed 100% pat
absolutely agree on John Maine…..then I’d go out and sign a starting pitcher but either an ace or a former ace who may just need another chance like pavano, mussina, colon, penny, dontrelle, etc.
pavano-hell no
mussina-hell no
colon-hell no
penny-maybe
dontrelle-not available
What makes you think maine would be suited to close…you need to have a mentality to relieve/close games…ask aaron heilman he can tell you
aaron heilman is not a good pitcher…..period. it’s not just mental, his sinker spins, his change up is predictable and stays up in the zone, and his slider is amateur.
i think he has good stuff but i just cant figure out what went wrong. I dont know if hes tipping his pitches or what but he gets to 2-2 and cant put people away. I was begging for the mets to send aaron down mid season to see if they could correct something down there……wish omar heeded that advice….look at myers..
Do you believe that:
1) Omar finally realizes the bullpen is worst in MLB?
and
2) Omar is smart enough to fix it?
This is the exact same group that killed the Mets last year, and Omar thought the best course of action was to bring them all back again for 2008.
The guy is not exactly quick on the uptake.
The most important thing, today, right now?
Niese has to have his good hook working for strikes tonight.
Its funny though, you look at the teams with the best bullpens and they have so many retreads and no names, yet they get the job done. The Jays have had the best bullpen ERA in baseball, with guys like Scott Downs who’s 32 years old but has 1.78 ERA in 70 innings and Jese Carlson 28 years old 57 innings and 1.74 ERA along with young guys like Brandon League. The bullpen is basically a crapshoot but for the Mets to have a group that has universally failed across the board…I don’t know how its possible. Its amazing they got so many weak-minded pitchers all on one staff together.
When they change this pen next year they need to do some psychological evaluations along with the regular talent evaluations.
i think its a combo of overuse and improper use. Manuel cannot come to grips to understand this team has alot of specialists. He insists on testing this theory all the time and it bites us every singe time. Manuel wants to use 6 pitchers then fine but use them correctly. Manuel says he “matches up” but he leaves show who has awful numbers vs righties to face….a righty. Then put god awful heilman in with the game tied…AND WALKS CHIP FOR BASES LOADED. Manuel has to get a reality check. Hopefully he will before its too late
I can’t fault him for leaving Show in yesterday, they got burned by the most absurd of circumstance by Kotchman.
As for Heilman, what can you say, who else are you going to go to in that spot, perhaps Ayala, but there was really no other option.
With kotchman yes i agree there was nothing that could be done about that but my point was simple we have 11 arms in that bullpen. Stokes was used for the inning before. Manuel claims he loves to mix and match and bobby cox(give credit where its due) knows this and thus made a lineup of RLRLRLRL in the event the pen got up. We have enough arms to match up batter for batter imo and we constantly get burned when a L reliever stays in against a R batter. Ayala would have been a better option for heilman anyday.
With middle relievers, it is all hit or miss. A pitcher could be great one year, absolute garbage the next.
A 1 percent Satchel Paige is better than a 100 percent Heilman. And Satchel’s dead.
I’d take those odds, even with Mr. Pagie’s corpse.
Two tickets to Sunday’s game against the Marlins. Last at Shea. Great seats behind home plate in the Mezzanine. Make an offer at chogitrunga at gmail
when you watched the all star game, you had guys like brandon webb, aaron cook, scott kazmir, etc etc coming in to relieve. and they did well. why? B/C THEY ARE GOOD PITCHERS! john maine is a better pitcher than ANYONE in the Mets pen. He has better stuff than KRod. I’d rather have a great pitching staff relieving, than a bunch of guys who are relegated to the pen b/c they weren’t good enough to start.
“john maine is a better pitcher than ANYONE in the Mets pen”
-and thats why i believe he is better suited to be a SP. You mentioned alot of big names..would you put maine in the same breathe as webb,cook,kasmir…did maine go to the allstar game. Dont compair those caliber pitchers to maine..hes not on that level. Relievers are good pitchers that lack the stamina or stuff to change their routine against a lineup deep into games. Id rather have a great SP staff that can go deep into games than have a great bullpen that will be overused by this time in the season over and over. Santana/Pelf/Ollie have proven they can go deep into games and at times maine has also. If maine stays in the rotation we would just need to focus on signing ollie back and 1 pitcher(innings eater). Putting maine in the “closer role” would have us trying to sign ollie and 2 SP…not a good deal imo.
we had the great starting staff…..how did it work out? if santana goes 7.1 innings of 1 run ball, in a 3-1 game, what usually happens? and john maine has just as good stuff as cook, kazmir, and last year should have been an all star. he is excellent stuff, better than billy wagner, krod, huston street, fuentes. given his ability to rise to the occasion, the fact that when he doesnt have to conserve he can throw 97 mph, with a change and curve, he is perfectly suited to be a closer. would i prefer mariano? yes! but i’d rather have john maine than any available closer!
“we had the great starting staff…..how did it work out?”
-well with INJURIES not that well but pleasent surprises from pelf and ollie.
“and john maine has just as good stuff as cook, kazmir, and last year should have been an all star”
-ok thats your opinion but what about this year…..
“given his ability to rise to the occasion, the fact that when he doesnt have to conserve he can throw 97 mph, with a change and curve, he is perfectly suited to be a closer. would i prefer mariano? yes! but i’d rather have john maine than any available closer”
-I never doubted maines stuff. I suggest you look at the available market for SP in 09. Not alot of good names and we are NOT going to be the only team on the lookout for pitching. We have a ledgit SP..why not use him?
b/c a legit SP staff like ours wasnt enough to beat a team with an inferior starting staff and a superior pen (Philly). so here are your choices:
sign Krod for 5 years, 75 million, maine in the rotation.
sign burnett/sheets for 4 years 80 million, maine as the closer.
option 2 actually strengthens your starting staff, while improving your bullpen.
“b/c a legit SP staff like ours wasnt enough to beat a team with an inferior starting staff and a superior pen (Philly). so here are your choices:”
-umm last time i checked we have a winning record against philly…..i must be missing something….
“sign Krod for 5 years, 75 million, maine in the rotation.
sign burnett/sheets for 4 years 80 million, maine as the closer”
-First off we dont know if krod will get a deal that big once he goes on the market(ask boras and arod). Second Sheets..seriously bro…have you not been paying attention, talk about injury prone. Burnett will want more than that and im sure with the yankees in desprite need of pitching he will get it.
all well and good, none of your support points Maine will be successful, but yest if he can pitch, give him the god damn ball.
I’d put my mother on the mound before Sanchez and Heilman at this point, so yes I would put Maine there too, but that does not mean he will be successful.
Can we do something to make sure that Heilman and Marlon Anderson aren’t even allowed in the stadium this week?
And Castillo. The human losing streak.
The curse of Castillo continues.. I don’t know what it is about this man but he brings this team seriously bad karma. Anyone know Voodoo?
Voodoo or not, he is an accident waiting to happen because he is not nearly 100% healthy.
I don’t give a crap that A Reyes has not hit in a month, put him in the 8th hole and move on.
Castillo is a BAD accident waiting to happen this week.
Castillo actually gets on base on occasion, unlike Heinous Reyes.
Jerry needs to stop with the Matchups. Keep the same pitch philosophy for the entire game until you reach the 9th. If Big Pelf is hammering the inside corner and breaking bats.. Keep our relievers pitching inside. If Santana is keep them off balance then try and continue to keep them off balance. I know this is easier said than done but ENOUGH OF THE MATCHUPS.
i disagree that i believe he should match up more. Manuel needs to understand his pen is full of specialists. He needs to manage that much better. I dont care if he uses 8 relievers if hes matching up R with R and L with L because thats how its going to get done. The only crossover pitchers we have are stokes/duaner/ayala.
my good man, the only thing Duaner crosses over is the left and right field wall continuously with his meatball action on his pitches these days…
lol true hes had a hard time of late but his averages are ALOT more balanced than many relievers on the pen.
avg vs LHP-.206
avg vs RHP-.260
I understand that, but he is lacking the same stomach muscle that Heilman has been all year in the last couple of months.
That i agree with…they should be happy with what they got and shut him down but since the bullpen is what it is i dont see that happening as i dont think there are vaiable replacements to take his place. Parnell did look good his last time out though.
Do you really think he makes the call to the pen and it goes something like this…
“Ok there Aaron. Here is what you do nibble on the first three pitches away, throw a gimme strike, then sneak in a breaking pitch on the corner. Then when you have em 3-2, throw another pitch on the outer half like a telegraph signal.”
Schneider is mentally challenged with this pen…
I think he does not know where else to go at this point, but right now, you have to pitch backwards almost.
Double up inside then move away, then double up inside.
You have to shake up the thoughts of the pitchers and the pen.
I think it is also high time for Manuel, Warthen, Schnieder, Castro and Cancel to sit down and talk shop.
Then Warthern and Manuel have to tell the relief pitchers, you throw what is called or you do no throw at all.
We should of used Neise out of the pen from the start.. Its not too late.. Let figgy start.. I know thats rolling the dice but we’ve lost more games in the eighth and ninth. We have to do what we have to do.
your solution to winning more games in the end is allowing them to get away earlier?
I know it is frustrating and all, but over experimenting never solved much in live game action in sports.
Wasn’t it when Jerry started doing the matchup thing that the bullpen started that scoreless streak last month? I actually think he’s getting away from that, leaving guys in there to face one batter too many when that batter isn’t their strong suit.
Look around the league. We have the most blown everything! He needs to change his philosophy entirely.. Ayala needs to come in when he is needed. Stop waiting for the 9th. Use Parnell..
I absolutely agree he needs to use more of the guys he has out there, and I’ve always hated the mentality that your ‘closer’ MUST be saved for the 9th inning instead of being brought in to stifle that big rally in the 7th.
Besides, the Ayala experiment has had really mixed results so far. I think Jerry needs to start looking at alternatives.
Also:
NEVER give Heilman the ball again!
amen!
jerry has become a little unhinged as of late, guessing a little bit and mismanaging the pen. IMHO, i never want to see Heilman or Show again. Like seriously unless we are winning 8-0 or losing by 7 in the 8th inning, they should not be anywhere near a mound.
b/c a legit SP staff like ours wasnt enough to beat a team with an inferior starting staff and a superior pen (Philly). so here are your choices:
sign Krod for 5 years, 75 million, maine in the rotation.
sign burnett/sheets for 4 years 80 million, maine as the closer.
option 2 actually strengthens your starting staff, while improving your bullpen.
Neise should be moved to the pen tonight!!! We have nothing to loose. Let figgy take his spot. Every option needs to be exhausted.
we have games to loose darth…Figgy wouldnt be a better option at this point than niese. I am curious to see how niese does against a .500 team when he is no longer nervous on the mound. That being said have figgy warming up to back up the kid if he gets into trouble
haha… didn’t realize Neise was starting tonight… Well give him two days to recover and then put him in the pen..
wow… I spelled Lose… Loose..
When its the day that our starter is supposed to throw his bullpen session,, He should be available in the pen. Why not! Use everything we have. I cannot take another meltdown.
can we make a waiver trade for the last week to get another reliever in our pen? They won’t be eligible for the postseason, but maybe they can help get us there.
David Weathers anyone?
i like
Heilman+Mota+Schoenwies+Benitez+Sanchez+Looper= Many many days of curse laden tirades in front of my unsuspecting family and friends
I think Manuel’s big mistake on Sunday was leaving Schoeneweis in after he got the first out. You have the 40-man roster, make use of it. Schoeneweis has been murdered by righties this year, and they had Smith and Feliciano warming up, so they could have easily gone Schoeneweis, Smith, Feliciano, for one out each. Obviously, the other guys would have needed to do their jobs better than they did, but things might have turned out a lot different if they hadn’t first been brought in after the lead was already blown. Who knows, maybe Joe Smith pitching to Infante with 1 out and nobody on gets the out, and Feliciano pitching to Kotchman with 2 outs and nobody on gets the third out (he and Ollie both made Kotchman look bad in Friday’s game, after all). It’s too late in the season to be testing people. As bad as the bullpen has been, Manuel has been yanking the relievers very quickly, often after only 1 batter, even if they get the guy out and look good, because he was not going to take a chance that he would push them too far and they would blow it. So why the change now? Schoeneweis got the first out, why try to push him against a righty, when righties have killed him all year, when he had the benefit of the 40-man roster?
Manuel’s thinking is much like mine. At some point, the tide has to turn. Nobody in this bullpen has a career ERA of 7.53. That’s basically what they have been posting over the past few months.
With even a decent bullpen, we would be planning for Game 1 at Shea and lining up our rotation just the way we’d like it.
The problem with that logic is that we don’t have time to let guys ‘turn the tide’. We need to win games and it doesn’t really matter how. If they finally turn the tide, but the Brewers have clinched, what good does that do us? This bullpen needs to have their hands held through the end of the season, not tested.
Look guys…. I live and die wit Los Mets. The bullpen is pathetic. They kept us in it in ‘06, handed us over to the wolves in ‘07…. WTF?!?!? SAMe guys in there. Makes NO sense… I know we cannot give up and look to 2009…. I never givin up on my yeam… but if Omar doesnt hand K-Rod a blank check in the off-season… this team is NOT dedicated to winning…
oh will you stop, 2009 is totally irrelevant right now and you have ZERO idea of what the Mets might be able to do beyond stupid Fransisco Rodriquez, whom by the way could blow out his arm in the playoffs or BLOW a huge game and then be just as ordinary looking as the rest of the pack.
agreed. Bottom line omar has his work cut out for him going into 09.
Um, no, the ‘06 and ‘07 ‘pens were not the same. We let Roberto Hernandez, Chad Bradford and Heath Bell go (if there were others, I can’t remember off the top of my head) after ‘06, while Duaner Sanchez was in that accident that kept him out of the second half of the season. ‘07 saw a non-juiced Mota, Scott Schoeneweis, and an inexperienced Joe Smith who went from good to bad about midway through the season.
Heilman 2008 = Mota 2007
Forget about starting on short rest. I want to see the starter stay in there until HE gives up the tying run. We have already proven that the bullpen can do that. I don’t care if it’s the 7th inning… At this point leave them in until runs are given up.. not baserunners.
How about givng Aaron Heilman a start? Then maybe he will smile :)
blame for what? Tell me who was a “stud” reliever that was available hm? Would you have given up murphy/fmart/evans/parnell/niese to obtain a skitish reliever because most of them are? Wasnt it omar who traded hernandez to get a RELIEVER who has saved 6 games so far…yea omar deserves blame…
Good thing your not a gm. A Gm’s job is to put the best team possible on the field and also plan for the future. Relievers in general are skittish and im sure many(if not all) in this blog would agree that the guys that are contributing now(murphy/evans/parnell/niese) are not worth 1 guy that may or may not have success in the near future.
“When your team is built to win now, you leverage your future to give THIS TEAM RIGHT NOW a chance to go for a CHAMPIONSHIP … that is what you play, to win a title”
-HA. Obviously you have not been around here long as that is the #1 complaint with omar..his “shortsighted” approach to our farm. Damned if you do, dammed if you dont..the life of a gm. Last time i checked this team RIGHT NOW has a chance to go for a championship and with the way omar has handled our farm we have the chance for many more repeatedly(ala late 90’s yanks).
“We’ve seen how its working the other way… monumental collpase last year and a team this year that’s good enough to win, but whose achilles heal bullpen will hold it back from doing anything… we can squeak into the playoffs, and it won’t amount to anything but a 1st round exit.”
-Im sure that was the case with colorodo last year..oh wait…..
Colorado had a bullpen last year
that was not my point. My point was that im sure colorado had some problems as well but they made it to the WS. Im sure the cards had their issues but they beat us to go to the WS. Why should we admit defeat when we have our issues. The post seaon is another animal entirely. All bets are off.
so you want to dump duaner over one year of actually pitching after 2 surgeries and over a year of not pitching…..to expect him to be the 2006 version would be stupid at best. If that was what you thought you were going to get then you brought disappointment on yourself. Id give duaner one more year. He would have months to rest up and work out for an outside shot of him returning back to his old form(he showed flashes of that this year). I would also forbid him to enter the WBC also.
and lose out on a reliever that has some hope of returning to a dominant reliever?? Because there are sooooo many better options out there…..the guy is 28 and i guess to you because he was not “lights out” in his FIRST season coming back from surgery and a car accident isnt worth keeping around…
boo hoo … what is this, charity? We owe it to Duaner or soemthing? I’d rather take my chances with someone who wasn’t on the shelf for more than a year and who has shown some evidence of effectiveness over the past two seasons … that seems like a more sensible move to me… oh, but I suppose now you’ll ask me ‘who would you rather have that is available and better than Duaner?’ as if no where out there in all of pro-baseball do quality relievers exist.
im sure they do exist..now how about the pertinant question…what quality reliever is available. O im sorry you would trade niese/fmart/murphy/evans for marmol or bradford or someone right….