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In his lead for the Associated Press, Tom Saladino says it best, writing, “Another late lead and another bullpen meltdown for the New York Mets.”
In yesterday’s loss, Mike Pelfrey handed off a two-run lead to his team’s bullpen, but Brian Stokes let up one run in the seventh, after which Scott Schoeneweis, Joe Smith, Pedro Feliciano and Aaron Heilman combined to let up four runs in the eighth inning.
Schoeneweis, speaking to reporters after the game, said:
“There’s no explanation anymore. I just don’t know what to say…I just don’t know what to say.
“We’re not consistently making big pitches at big times. We do it one night, we don’t do it the next night. There’s really nothing more to say or explain or philosophize about. We’ve just got to get it done, somehow.”
David Wright, talking to reporters after the game, said:
“It was one of the games where you could feel, as the game went on, the momentum kind of slipped away.”
…in other words, eventually, they always know that the bullpen must enter the game…ugh…we feel you, david…
“If the season ended today, we’re going to the playoffs,” Joe Smith is quoted as saying in Newsday.
…that’s the problem, though, the season doesn’t end today…
For more on the team’s bullpen, check out Howard Megdal’s column in the New York Observer.
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According to Pinella, he will run out a fairly regular lineup, maybe resting just a regular per day, but his starters will be on a much shorter pitch count, like Dempster’s 67 yesterday.
and yet, I’ll be surprised if we take 3 of these next 4 games…
BTW, you should know better than to say something like that Joe Smith – “If the season ended today, we’re going to the playoffs,” Joe Smith is quoted as saying in Newsday.
Does he not remember the infamous…
“The champagne will taste that much sweeter,”??
Can someone wiser than me please enlighten me as to why Jerry Manuel continues to consisantly bring in Aaron Heilman to pitch. J.M. has to be the only member of the Met fan base who doesn’t cringe every time that A.H. comes into the game.
I don’t give a rat’s axx that he can throw a 93 hour fast ball; there are kids in high school that can do that.
So please people tell me why because it’s driving me crazy!!
He does not bring him in consistently at all. Very sporadically, in fact. That being said, can someone explain to me why he uses Heilman at all????
..when 4 other pitchers fail to do thier job Heilman is about the only option left…
that said, yesterday would have been a great spot to use Ayala instead of Heilman. He hasnt pitched in four days…
Id be shocked if we split this series. maybe sweet lou wont use his SP for more than a certain pitch count but bottom line is we will still have to get guys like derek lee, aramis ramirez and alfonso soriano out in the last 3 innings of a game. clinch or not major league hitters (on teams other than the mets) do not give away at bats late in games.
I went back and looked at the schedule and results since the All-Star game. There have been seven games since the All-Star game in which the Mets have had a 2+ run lead from the seventh inning on and have lost. Once or twice may be normal but seven is disasterous.
That is a very telling stat.
Another one is that the Mets have lost 7 games this year in which they led going to the 9th inning.
The Phillies have lost ZERO of those games.
I was actually doing the same thing when I saw your post, so I broke it down a little further.
When the starter hands over a 1 run lead the pen has converted 1 of 7 chances.
When the starter hands over a 2 run lead the pen has converted 2 of 6 chances.
Thats 3 out of 13 with a 2 run lead or less.
Pathetic.
These are August and Sept numbers, for the record.
The bullpen being awful doesn’t only affect the bullpen.
It also affects the starts, who feel added pressure to give up less runs and go deeper into games.
It adds pressure to the hitters, who feel the need to score more runs in each game, because a 1 or 2 run lead is almost never enough.
It’s disasterous to say the least. No matter what happens the rest of this season (hopefully the team makes the playoffs, and we’ll see what happens after that *knock on wood*) – this bullpen needs to be completely revamped. I don’t want to see more than 1 or 2 faces back next year, if even that.
Great and accurate post prismo.
Right on. Take a look at yesterday’s game. You look at Pelfrey’s pitch count in the fourth inning and you already know he’s probably not going more than 6 or 7. The opposition knows that if they can get the starter out of there, they’ll get to face the bullpen over the last few innings. So they take more pitches early in the game and get into deeper counts to up the pitch count of a Pelfrey and/or Santana. Puts a lot of strain on the starter to try and economize on pitches.
Great point. Every pitcher’s gripping the ball harder. Every batter’s gripping the bat tighter and every coach is clenching his fists that much…
you get the point…
Wright can feel the game slipping away…maybe they should try to score after the second inning a little more often.
True, But its gotten to the point where NO lead is safe.
I know Mike w/o the maddog is a blowhard BUT the truest
thing I’ve heard him say in 20yrs is that this is the worst
bullpen hes seen on a contender in his 40+yrs following
the game. I, myself cant recall a worse one in MY 35yrs
following THIS team.
6 runs. This is NOT on the offense. You should win that game.
its on the offense if you notice WHEN the runs were scored
That’s meaningless. This bullpen is not better when handed a big lead or a small lead. Had they scored a run an inning through the first 6 and were leading 6-2, that lead still would not have been safe. 6 runs should be enough to win a game.
have you watched this team all year?
Just about every game. So? You score 0 runs 1-8 and 12 in the ninth, you’ve scored 12 runs. You score a run every inning, you’ve scored 9. The final score does not weigh the inning in which you scored the runs. 6 runs scored during a nine inning game ought to be enough to win. The bullpen is destroying this team, not the offense.
Look, when they had runners on 1&2 twice yesterday and didn’t score, I knew that would be trouble, but only because I knew the bullpen would not hold. They still scored 6 and lost. That’s a pitching failure, not a hitting failure.
4 runs were scored in the first 8 innings. The two runs in the ninth came after the barn door was left open.
I know how it happened… I’m just saying that to blame an offense for not scoring enough after they scored 6 is not putting the blame where it belongs. Yes, there were some missed opportunities, but there are in every game for every team. The issue is simply not with the offense.
Tidewater is right. If the bullpen had given up 4 runs in 2 innings instead of 5, Delgado’s home run ties the game. (I’m counting the inherited run as being on the bullpen, because three specialists should be able to strand a runner at 1st with no outs.)
This means if the Bullpen’s ERA is 18.00 instead of 22.50, Delgado’s homer is meaningful. Regardless of when the runs are scored, you an ERA of 18.00 is not too much to ask from 6 specialists.
Agreed completely…you knock out a rookie starter in 3 innings (on just 4 runs when they had him on the ropes for far more) and you can’t touch their miserable parade of releivers all game?
When this team prepares for a game do they even think of anyone besides the starters?
Sorry, these two games in Atlanta are on the offense. Absolutely miserable performance.
The Phillies scored 3 & 5 runs respectively over the last 2 games and managed to win both games. Why? Because their bullpen did the job they’re suppose to do over the last third of the game when handed a lead.
Omar Minaya HAS TO make the bullpen a major priority in the offseason. I don’t care if the rest of the roster stays absolutely frozen, but this bullpen needs a complete overhaul.
With some halfway decent relief, the Mets would be coasting to their third straight division title right now, not just trying to hold on to the Wild Card.
He was supposed to do that last off season and did not address it.
I second that. My question is with the resigning alou and not doing anything for the bullpen why doesn’t Minaya get any flack? It is said the Wilpons and Minaya are already talking extension.
Do you read this blog? The man gets planety of ‘flak.’
Minaya did do a suboptimal job with the bullpen, but you can’t really blame him too much.
You could not have predicted that Heilman and Feliciano, both historically excellent setup men, would have historically bad years–Heilman’s number of homers with men on base is, I believe, a record for relievers.
You could not have predicted that out of Kunz, Muñiz, Collazo, and Parnell, 4 legit relief prospects, 3 out of 4 would be terrible, and one as yet untested.
Wagner has had a history of minor injuries, but you could not have predicted the end of his career.
Smith has performed as expected. That’s it. Omar could have done better, but this level of ineptitude is not his fault.
What do you mean he did not address the bullpen. What about Matt Wise?
It is clear that the bullpen is like Willie in that alone they are not that bad based on just numbers. However, the negative cloud that hangs over them effects the enitre mood and outcome of the game. Everyone plays tighter because of the stress, not just the pen but the entire team including Manuel.
The pressure is intense knowing that no lead is safe and that you must score a ton of runs each game in order to win.
Are you delusional? Alone, they are terrible based on just numbers.
They have 29 blown saves and just 1 more will tie them for first in the majors for the lead in blown saves.
They are 10th in the NL in bullpen ERA. Philadelphia is 2nd.
On sheer numbers alone, the Mets bullpen is a disgrace considering they have the highest payroll in the NL.
Geez.
Another sad number — Santana alone has had at least 7 of his leads blown by the pen. With the Twins last year he had ZERO leads blown.
As I mentioned earlier, 7 games lost since the All-Star game in which they held a 2+ run lead from the seventh inning on. Win 5 of them and you’re sitting pretty in the division and have basically clinched a postseason spot.
In June and July this was a pretty bad bullpen. It has gotten worse and worse and worse as the season went on. I don’t even have an adjective to describe this bullpen right now. It will be a miracle for this team to make the playoff’s with this joke of a pen.
Point is looking just at some individual ERA’s it’s decieving. Feliciano, Show, Smith all have decent numbers by themselves but as a group the entire pen can’t get an out.
Yeah it is deceiving. That’s because the 3 you mentioned are pretty good specialists. They have no support around them … not one guy that can pitch a clean inning, which forces Feliciano, Smith, and Showeneweis to pitch in situations they should not be in.
It’s a mess.
An ERA can be deceiving for a specific reliever. Take Show. I’ve seen some fans point to him and his ERA and say he’s having a good year. That’s nonsense. The guy not only leaves a lot of messes for other relievers to clean up, but even when he faces just a lefty in a key spot he often gets burned. He’s so ineffective that he’s pitched an entire inning only 3 times this month, yet he’s now the highest paid reliever in the pen.
The entire pen’s ERA is lousy and the number of blown saves is atrocious. Those are the only “numbers” that count.
mikey, I disagree with you that Show is a good specialist. I’ve seen so many key situations over the last 2 years where Show is asked to get just a lefty out and he can’t do the job. He stinks.
I didn’t actually mean he was a GOOD specialist. I actually despise the guy.
No argument here.
Sorry for my thinking you meant he was “good” when all you said was that he was “pretty good.” :wink:
The Mets:
Alou has missed the whole year.
Church has missed at least half the year.
Tatis, Alou and Church’s replacement, is now done for the year.
Pedro missed half the year, and hasn’t been effective.
John Maine has missed a month and a half, and was affected for who-knows-how-long by his shoulder.
Castillo has missed half the year, and hasn’t been effective.
Easley, Castillo’s replacement, is now done for the year.
Wagner is done for two years, and was affected by his elbow for who-knows-how-long.
The Phillies:
Rollins missed a month, month and a half to injury.
Unless I’m missing anything, that’s it.
Based on the above, I’m amazed by two things: that the Mets are still in this thing, and the Phillies haven’t completely run away with it.
The Mets should probably be in third place, at least. Yet, here we are. What a strange game.
This could also be titled:
“Thank you, thank you, thank you, Jose Reyes, David Wright, Carlos B & D, and Johan, and Big Pelf.”
If you’re trying to blame injuries on the Mets woes you have serious issues…with that said, injuries are a part of every game and you need to have depth on a team which starts with the GM…..the Phils have had the best bench all year so even if a key guy got hurt they had a more than adequate replacement……look at the Phils last season where they had key players out all the time and still managed to win the division…….No excuses, play like a champion
….and as always…Let’s Go Phils!
No, the Mets problems are because of the bullpen. It’s just that, even when you take the bullpen out of it, we have no business being where we are right now because of the onslaught of injuries to starters. Which, to me, points to the DEPTH of the Mets system/bench, where they’ve had guys to step up and fill in more than adequately for starters. I think it was clear that THAT’S what I was pointing out.
So why don’t you stop trolling and start reading, frontrunner.
I disagree. If not for the bullpen, the Mets would be in first place and they’d deserve it.
The Mets have scored more runs than the Phillies this year which is amazing since the Phillies play in that bandbox. And the Mets rotation ERA is essentially tied for 2nd in the NL (just 0.02 behind 2nd place Milwaukee).
The bullpen is the culprit this year. The offense and rotation have done their jobs.
The crappy bullpen cost Santana a shot at the Cy Young.
That’s… exactly what I said. “The Mets problems are because of the bullpen.” Direct quote. My OTHER point is that, with the number of injuries the Mets have had, they SHOULDN’T be in a position to contend, but they ARE. So I’m not using injuries as an EXCUSE (like the Yankees), but saying the Mets have found success in spite of having a lot of them.
I was replying to your point that even if the bullpen hadn’t been bad, the Mets had no business being in first.
I disagree. I don’t think the injuries were to any of the really key players with the exception of Wagner. Now if Beltran, Wright, Reyes, Delgado,Santana, Ollie or Pelfrey had gotten hurt, maybe you have a point. But the Mets main contributors for the most part stayed healthy.
Church was our best hitter before he got hurt; that’s pretty key.
John Maine being hurt for half the year and unavailable for the last 2 months is HUGE. He’s our 2nd starter, despite the recent successes of Ollie and Pelf.
Wagner is HUGE squared.
Alou, had he been able to play 80 games instead of Marlon Anderson and Endy Chavez, would have us in 1st place by himself, even if everything else was the same. (Of course, we might not have discovered–and indeed might have traded–Dan Murphy if he had stayed healthy.) But we were starting Pagan, Chavez, and Anderson in the corner outfield spots for half the year before Tatis went out of his mind and Murphy exploded onto the scene.
And name the “key guy” on the Phils who has gotten hurt aside from Rollins.
that’s why I said “if” a key guy got hurt……Phils have been fortunate this year but last season you can look at Howard, Utley, Hamels, Gordon all being hurt at multiple times during the season….
All right, well… yeah! Okay, that’s true. That’s what you said.
Let’s make it clear. The frustration of the Mets fan is not born out of the Phillies being good. Good for you that your team is good. It ’s born out of the Mets bullpen being so bad.
I’ve said as much before too.
Add Pagan season ending injury, Schneider on the DL at least twice and Marlon out for 3/4 of the year, Wise out for the year to that list. I’m amazed we’re anywhere near this close myself.
Just goes to show that we have/had some depth in the field and w/o the current BP woes, we’d be sitting on top with no problem….
‘This year, the injuries might have actually helped the Mets.
One, because Wise and Pagan were marginal or crappy players. It’s not like they would have had great years for the Mets. And, two, without Pagan getting hurt, maybe Evans and Murphy don’t get a shot. Not that I want anyone to get hurt, but those injuries were a blessing in disguise.
You can’t prove that, but you’re probably right. It WAS NOT a blessing to lose Alou, Church and Wagner.
Church and Wagner I’ll agree with.
But I think it was a blessing to finally lose Alou for good.
Because otherwise he would have just been in and out of the lineup all year long, disrupting the team chemistry and flow. And Murphy and Evans wouldn’t have gotten the chances they did.
Yeah, but a healthy Alou is a hitting Alou.
Problem is, he is hardly ever healthy enough to stay in the lineup and that in and of itself causes havoc with the roster and disrupts the flow of the team.
Losing Pagan is like clipping a fingernail too short — unfortunate but not serious. Pagan is not a good baseball player.
“If the season ended today, we’re going to the playoffs,” Joe Smith is quoted as saying in Newsday.
Isn’t that the same thing a Royals fan would say after a 2-0 start to the season? Were doomed.
at least we can’t say that this team is boring!
Or good!
or enjoyable to watch… ugh
What did I predict?
The Mets will lose 2 of 3 to the Braves.
The Mets will lose 3 of 4 to the Cubs.
The Mets will lose 2 of 3 to the Marlins.
The Mets will not win the NL East.
The Mets will not win the wildcard.
Already 1 for 5…does anyone doubt that I will be 5 for 5? My prediction vs. the Cubs is actually somewhat optimistic. Face it, unless it’s a runaway, like in ‘06, these guys can’t win.
I doubt it. I long ago realized you can’t predict anything with baseball. We’ve won games we all thought we would lose, we lost games we all thought we would win. I.E. the last double header with Santana/Niese start.
All you can do is watch and see how it all plays out.
are you happy you’re half right? i think i got a medal laying around here
You are the worst kind of clown Henderson—you made all of these definitive posts last week about what WILL happen and then you didn’t make one post when we were winning and back in first, and after yesterday’s loss, here you are again.
Wrong. I’ve posted every day this week. And I’ve been right. I should mention, my wins count prediction also stands at 88.
Yeah, can’t wait for your posts this week when all of your other predictions are wrong…..won’t hold my breath Mr. Negative.
Don’t hold your breath…because they will be right.
Keep that in mind every time they have a lead in the late innings…and oops! They lost.
Thanks for the insight, Nostraduma*s
It’s painful to watch this team when you feel lucky to pull out every single game that the starter doesn’t go all the way. The bullpen is just that bad. You really feel like it takes a miracle for the Mets to win a game once their bullpen is involved, and a team can only pull off so many miracles.
With a reasonable bullpen, the Mets would be on track to win 100 games this year. Now, we’ll be lucky if we make the playoffs — and if you want to make it through the first round, you better hope you score a TON of runs (which won’t happen against Harden and Big Z) and John Maine is back to bolster the bullpen.
I’m not worried as much about the starting pitchers I am with the closers. These guys have to step up and take control if we are to have a chance in the post season. I don’t want to hear well I’m not a closer or I threw the pitch I wanted but they hit it and you gave up. Just go out there, Try your BEST and show you are making an attempt. Going in the 7th, 8th or 9th inning just to walk batters and letting them finish us off with a 1, 2 or 3 run homerun is not acceptable, especially at this point of the Season. It takes a TEAM to win but all have to play as a team with determination. So like Nike states, JUST DO IT!!!!!!
Failure to do so will just be another noted disappointment in our Mets history book which we can do without. Look at the Yankees, as much I hate to say this. Yes, they are out this year but how they play as a team, all parties, have faith and confidence and have 26 WS under their belts.
I’m not saying the Mets do not have this, they just need to prove it. It should not be a constant nail biting season. You should be more consistent. It’s time for a World Series win so pick yourselves up, be men about it and go do what you are being paid to do. No one should have to hold your hands at this part of your lives.
WE NEED TO WIN NOT JUST TONIGHT, BUT FOR THE LAST FEW GAMES OF THIS SEASON SHOWING WE ARE IN IT TO WIN IT, REGAIN FIRST PLACE AND TAKING IT ALL THE WAY TO THE WORLD SERIES.
BULLPEN, WAKE UP AND GETTER DONE!!!!!!!! WE NEED YOU GUYS TO STEP UP, NOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!
LET’S GO METS, LET’S GO METS, LET’S GO METS!!!!!!
You are worried about the postseason? Man I am worried we aren’t getting there first.
The most telling action from yesterdays game of the burden this bullpen is imposing on this team is that 1 & 2nd no outs Carlos Beltran is trying to bunt the runners over and nobody is saying anything about it. Yes Beltran has bunted in the past but he hasn’t done so in a long time.
True. I am worried about the season, post season and next season. That’s why Mets Fans are truely special with what we have to endure… :-)
agreed..high tolerance for pain.
It is funny when they put Heilman in I tried to turn it off put the Giant game on and get my mind off of it. But of course that lasted 3 seconds as I had to turn it back on because I am a met fan and I enjoy pain.
LOL. No pain, No gain. So, we all have the Pain, not gotta believe to see if we can get some Gain. Going to be a looooooong week. Let’s hope for the best fellas.
Here’s my breakdown of the bullpen over the next seven days. See if you agree:
Guys who should be in the games:
39 Bobby Parnell
35 Joe Smith
27 Nelson Figueroa
43 Brian Stokes
73 Ricardo Rincon
On the fence:
56 Luis Ayala
Guys we shouldn’t see for the rest of the season:
48 Aaron Heilman
50 Duaner Sanchez
60 Scott Schoeneweis
32 Carlos Muniz
25 Pedro Feliciano
You know, the old baseball cliche is that “you go with the guys who got you there.” Well, it’s pretty obvious that these are the guys the Mets have gotten to this point, in spite of. So I would have no problem throwing unproven guys like Parnell in bigger spots. At this point, I’d rather fail with what the guys we don’t know than fail with the guys who have had the shot all year, and who we all know stink. By putting Parnell in (who has retired all 5 batters he’s faced, BTW) it’s not like Jerry would be turning away from a proven bullpen formula.
I heard a caller with a great point on “Mike and… well, Nobody” the other day. K-Rod, Papelbon, Wainwright… young relievers that joined a team late and helped in the playoff push. Why not give Parnell a shot? He can’t be worse than what’s being put out there.
Agree almost completely, except you still need Schoe and Feliciano for lefties. But ONLY lefties.
Also throw Brandon Knight into that mix.
I don’t know if they’re only looking at Knight as a starter, but I’d say okay to that.
you do realize that Feliciano has been a savior the past few games right? He needs to be in there
Feliciano last week:
4.50 ERA
1 W
1 K
1 BB
2 IP
1.00 WHIP
Feliciano last month
7.11 ERA
1 W
1 L
6 K
4 BB
6.1 IP
1.89 WHIP
Now, he’s had some big outs in that stretch, I’ll agree. But he’s also not gotten the job done a bunch of times. So while I’m okay with him getting some lefties out, I’d be hard pressed to call him a “savior.”
Ayala has been our best reliever the last month. He had the one blow-up against the Braves.
Ayala last month:
The good:
7 SV
8 K
1 BB
The not-so-good:
1 L
5.23 ERA
1.45 WHIP
I like Ayala, too, and I’m fine going to him, but he hasn’t been “lights out”.
The best Mets reliever over the past month in terms of effectiveness in relation to opportunities has probably been Joe Smith.
reliever numbers are not so meaningful over a 2 to 3 week period as one outing can inflate them. Ayala had the 1 bad outing so his numbers are off. Smith has been very good too.
I don’t see Ayala being a problem this week. If we can get the ball to him, I think he will get the job done.
Also, I would put Parnell on the fence. He looks very hittable to me. That being said, given the choices he deserves a shot.
That’s funny, as he hasn’t actually given up a hit yet.
He’s pitched less than 2 innings. If you watched him Saturday, his fastball is not overpowering and he was leaving his breaking ball in the middle of the plate. I don’t see him and his 5+ ERA at AA and AAA this year being the answer. But as I said above, he deserves as much of a chance as anyone else.
“The Momentum Kind of Slipped Away”
Yeah, and the season is kind of slipping away too. Tonight is a huge game … and a huge burned on the kid in his 3rd major league start. Win … 2 games up in the wild card. Lose … 1 game up.
2 games up with 6 to go, I believe they can win the wild card. If they lose tonight though, I think the Mets are done.
*burden
Why doesn’t Jerry Manuel get criticized at all? Can someone explain this to me. If Willie was managing this team and yesterday happened we would be killing Willie and how he had the wrong match-ups.
Note to Jerry if you are already going to use 15 pitchers to get out of 1 inning why not match-up every damn pitcher you have. Go batter to batter. Show should not have been pitching to the righty in that spot. Smith was brought in 2 batters too late…Feliciano was brought in 2 batters too late.
I’ll criticize him for continuously going to Heilman, Schow, Sanchez, Feliciano, etc.
why does he have to use 5 guys in one inning? if they can’t do it together, why not just give the ball to one of them and see what happens. let the guy get in a groove. if not…then same result.
Did anyone on this blog have any confidence in Show getting the righty?
Fact of the matter is if Wagner isn’t hurt you easily mix and match the 8th using 3 different pitchers (Show, Smith, Feliciano) for 3 consecutive batters. At this point Jerry has to stop worrying about saving a pitcher for later in the game….In this case he was trying to save Feliciano for the 9th if match-ups would dictate he could use Ayala and Feliciano. Point is he needs to get through the 8th to get to the 9th with a lead.
All we have are specialists in this bullpen he needs to understand that and so does Minaya
Because, fair or not, under Manuel this team has been something like 19 games over .500 and with Randolph they blew a 7 game lead with 17 to play and then were under .500 in June.
Yes they both had similar bullpen woes, but Jerry’s had more recent success.
And the Mets have now blown a 4 game lead in the loss column with about 17 to play. While not as bad, it’s just as disturbing.
That’s true, but remember the serious heat didn’t hit Willie until the team was awful going into June. Sure, there were call for his head after the collapse, but it really started in earnest this season.
Remember, the question was why doesn’t he get criticized.
Couple what I said earlier with the fact that Manuel’s generally more likable (more open, less defensive, less stubborn) and the fact that Jerry at least seemed to try to get more out of his starters than Willie did, and you have your answer.
Does Manuel deserve some criticism? Probably, and he gets some.
But we’ve all become aware that this bullpen is a minefield at best, and Manuel does push his starters about as far as one can expect. Beyond that, it becomes the bullpen’s responsibility to get outs, and Minaya’s responsibility to fix this thing over the winter.
And the answer is because all NY managers get a honeymoon period. This is Jerry’s. Believe me, if the Mets don’t make the playoffs, I doubt there will be the same enthusiasm for Manuel that we saw just a week ago.
Yeah, he’s a much more likable guy than Willie. Funny and friendly. But that won’t buy a manager anything in this town if he doesn’t win.
In a way I think that’s unfortunate. As with Willie, I believe the team’s fortunes are mostly due to the GM.
the fact that Jerry at least seemed to try to get more out of his starters
I don’t think that’s true to any large extent.
One could also say that he’s generally more reckless with the pitchers’ health.
Oh, please. “I’m sorry, Mr. Millionaire. You only want to pitch five innings because you’re worried about hurting your arm? Okay!” The starters have generally gone deeper in the game with Jerry at the helm.
Not true. Look at the pitch counts. They are more or less the same as in the beginning of the year.
And if they are a little more, then it’s because 1) Guys like Ollie, Santana and Pelfrey have been more effective the 2nd half so they don’t get knocked out as much and 2) pitchers are usually more able to go longer into games after the first few months of the season. They work up gradually to their pitch counts.
A few of us did get on him last week for using Ayala and Smith when they had 5 and 6 run leads. It was moronic.
But some fans jumped to his defense.
It is an overall situation though. Nobody is ripping him in the media for the most part. And honestly a few of us is one thing. When Willie was manager there were people who changed their names to fire willie or something similar and threads were dedicated to firing the guy.
Jerry knows how to play the media. It is like David Wright. Neither get criticized because they are nice to the media and give them what they want.
BTW WHERE IS BOBBY PARNELL HE COULD BE OUR JOBA, OUR K-ROD
Please. Parnell was only okay in the minors. He’s much more likely to be out (name generic pitcher here) than a Joba or a K-Rod.
You have a point. But I think this is akin to the honeymoon period that all new m-a-nagers in NY get. Girardi got one this year.
But they should seriously look at Manuel’s bullpen ma-nag-ement before extending him.
I agree with you that Parnell should have been used much more. Even Rincon in some situations. .
tidewater — Even if it’s true that Parnell will not be a good ML pitcher, why not see? It took Manuel 2 weeks to use Parnell. And when there were some bigger leads, he could have used Parnell instead of wasting Smith and Ayala.
Not one fan on this site this spring said Murphy had what it took to be a good ML starter, and look at him now.
Maybe Parnell is better suited to relieving. He only started in the minors.
Oh, I agree with that completely. It drove me crazy when Willie didn’t use Humber last year and it makes no sense that Parnell’s gotten so little use. What I object to is this notion that he could be out Joba or K-Rod. That’s just not likely and a silly thing to wish for.
That’s “our” not “out.”
Well… why not just see? Even if he’s just 3/4 as effective as K-Rod and Joba were when they first came up, that’s better than some of the clowns in the bullpen now.
Even if he’s just a flash in the pan, so what? Ride the hot hand, as-suming Parnell can get hot. It doesn’t mean the organization is wed to him for next year. Just try out all options. And it’s not as if there weren’t opportunities to try him (and Rincon) out sooner.
Like I said, I’m all for using Parnell more. Hell, I’m all for using my grandmother out of the pen if they can dig her out and get her a glove.
look the pen is horrible no ways about it but i think manuel made a few questionable moves in regard to the pen. I dont agree with manuel when he took out pelf. Second when will he learn that THE PEN IS FULL OF SPECIALIST..STOP USING SHOW TO PITCH TO RIGHTIES. Im getting sick and tired of seeing the same thing happen over and over..Its the same result(infante hit a double that turned into the tying run). The swing that kotchman gave was bs but nothing you can do about that. The use of smith was correct(obviously the result wasnt) and the biggest mistake of all AARON HEILMAN. Now Aaron is BAD ENOUGH given minimal pressure but to LOAD THE BASES against him with at tied game….Manuel was asking for trouble. Also in the ninth after gado hit that 2run hr..you let easley..EASLEY..who is nursing an injured quad bat for church(which was the right move subing church..he has been cold). You have ramon castro and nick evans on the bench…..
Manuel cost us that game guys plain and simple. Manuel has to reapproach the end of the season. He needs to become offense minded. He is going to have to throw out the “unwritten” rules in baseball that if your up by 5 or more run you lay off the agressiveness. Manuel has to make moves to get runs over and create the biggest cushion possible for the pen. Its a shame but this bullpen situation is NOT going to get any better and we have to come to grips with that.
Agree completely. It was not the move to leave in Show. One mistake is bad enough, it’s the combination of things. I really think that Manuel is having a hard time with all the pressure too.
Why not let Castro, your best pinch hitter with power bat there? How long has it been since Easley swung a bat? Or the fact that we don’t play small ball at all. How many times did we have to pitch out when the Braves had a runner on 3rd because we expected there could be a suicide play? How long has it been since the Mets, the fastest team in the league, did that?
agreed real. Its almost as if manuel threw that old playbook out about playing small ball. I think he has used the squeeze play at most twice in his tenure. The guy has to taylor his approach now to offense and constantly manuvering guys to get runs in through the game no matter how large a lead it is. If we are up by 5 i want to see hit and runs, bunt plays, steals..im sure it will piss alot of teams off but bottom line with the bullpen that we got its become a joke. They need every last run they can get.
I’m not gonna get on him for his bullpen moves because there is not really anything he can do with the bunch he has to choose from …
but using Easley there in that spot … that was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen.
I was at the games this past weekend. Sunday was pathetic. Wathing our bullpen blow the lead on Sunday, while not surprising, it was disguesting.
Hit after hit, run after run it was like a slow, painfull death. 1-8 at Turner Field is pathetic.
I hate Aaron Heilman. And I have been one of his biggest advocators up until yesterday. Manuel should never put him in…ever. Trade him, drop him, whatever. After this season is over, he should never put on a Met uniform ever again. The same goes for Show.
We need a COMPLETE overhaul of our BP this off season.
7 games left….7 games to proove we, at least, belong in the playoffs.
In September, the Mets are 10-8 while the Phils are 13-6. The team needs to go on a 3 game winning streak.
Feels a lot worse than that, doesn’t it?
for what just to catch up..by the time we do that the phills would have gotten probably 3 more. We need to take 3 of 4 from the cubs and 2 of 3 with the marlins. If not we are relying on ALOT of help from alot of people.
Actually I think we just have to go 1 game over .500 the rest of the way and we will make it in. Win 2 with the Cubs and 2 with the Marlins.
Yeah, that’s really all they have to do…If the Mets go 4-3, the Brewers would have to go 5-1 just to tie. Unfortunately going 4-3 is much easier said than done.
The way I see it … they need to win tonight … + 2 more minimum. Tonight’s game is the deal breaker.
“That’s all they have to do”
Remember last season?
That’s all they needed to do also.
It’s a tall order for guys who come up small.
I’m pinning my (fading) hopes on the Bucs shocking the Brews
Yes, ultimately it was the bullpen’s fault yesterday, but what about Mike Pelfrey failing to get down a sacrifice bunt with two on and no one out?
That was the moment the momentum David Wright talked about disappered.
What about Carlos Beltran’s bad idea to bunt with two on and no one out and eventually making an out?
What about Jose Reyes and Daniel Murphy going a combined 0-for-10, with Reyes hitting everything in the air and Murphy twice striking out on fastballs right down the middle of the plate?
What about the Mets drawing nine walks through eight innings, but failing to score more than four runs?
What about the Mets hitters laying down to the likes of relievers Buddy Carlyle, Jeff Bennett, Charlie Morton and Jorge Julio?
agreed especially about pelf he had to get that bunt down. The offense has its woes also but manuel used 6 relievers for 6 outs and he comes up empty….
Was Beltran’s bunt a bad idea? What if he had gotten it down? Would we have scored that inning? How many runs did we lose by?
It was a horrible idea. He can’t bunt there. Swing the bat and at the least pull the ball. No one will second guess him if he did that.
By the way, anyone seen or heard from Duaner Sanchez?
I think he went for coffee with Parnell.
The Dauner Sanchez that goes 5 games without allowing a baserunner?
or the Dauner Sanchez that allows 3 runs without retiring a batter?
which one do we think will show up next?
Well, I really think that after yesterday the Brewers saved their season while the Mets really put their season in severe jeopardy. The Mets all but killed their division chances with this series against the Braves. And I don’t feel any better with us playing the Cubs while the Brewers are playing the Pirates. Huge start of Neise tonight. I actually hope he pitches a gem and makes Jerry really have to consider using him over Pedro on any playoff rotation.
There are 7 games left, and all I am asking for is that Luis Castillo starts none of them. I will take my chances with anyone else.
Tonight’s game is pivotal. 2 games up with 6 to go is a lot different than 1 game up. If they win tonight, even if they won only 2 more games in the final 6, Milwaukee would have to win 4 to tie. I hope Niese has another good game in him.
Luis Castillo … who let him out of the bathroom? He’s a jinx … put him back in the bathroom.
Racemcloud: It’s a lot worse than a bad bullpen.
Omar Minaya built this year’s team on a bad bullpen he failed to overhaul in the off-season and at the non-waiver trading deadline; overpaid in years and dollars for a debilitated second baseman who had a strong two months in a Mets uniform; picked up the option on a chronically injury-prone, 41-year-old left fielder and counted on him to be a starter and last all year; committed to a second year on an inured starting pitcher whose exact age no one knows and hasn’t thrown a single pitch this year; has as a No. 2 starter a former legend who unquestionably is at the end of his storied career.
Minaya has built this year’s team on pipe dreams rather than reality. he molded the squad with his heart, not his head.
If the Mets miraculously were to win it all this year, the team needs a major overhaul of its entire pitching staff and second base situation for next year.
“Omar Minaya built this year’s team on a bad bullpen he failed to overhaul in the off-season and at the non-waiver trading deadline”
-everyone enjoys saying this but yet fails to say who is this Stud reliever that was available in the off-season. Also arent you glad that omar didnt give up anything at the trade deadline(murphy,evans,parnell,niese).
“overpaid in years and dollars for a debilitated second baseman who had a strong two months in a Mets uniform”
-overpaid in years not dollars as houston was offering a similar amount for 3 years. omar threw in the last year to entice him to fill in a hole we had in 2b..you know what his job is to do. Go ahead and tell me who was available that YOU trusted for a whole season at 2b w/o knowledge of this season….
” picked up the option on a chronically injury-prone, 41-year-old left fielder and counted on him to be a starter and last all year”
-please show me a report that says omar said alou will be around all year…go on ill wait…
“committed to a second year on an inured starting pitcher whose exact age no one knows and hasn’t thrown a single pitch this year”
-A pitcher who was one of our best pitchers in 2007..yea omar that jerk wanting to retain a good pitcher for us…FIRE HIM.
“has as a No. 2 starter a former legend who unquestionably is at the end of his storied career.”
-was anybody complaining in 2005? Yes he was injured for most of 06 and 07 and 08..the guy is living out his contract that was signed in 2005. Im sorry omar didnt have his crystal ball working the day he signed the best pitcher of a generation.
Hey, I didn’t say a word about how Omar built the team. Pick someone else to climb onto to soapbox about how much you don’t like Omar as GM. I’m looking at performance, and no matter what you think of the composition of the team, the offense and starting pitching have gotten the job done, and the bullpen has been horrendous. Sure, it’s ironic that Omar always says that you live and die with the ‘pen and this is the ‘pen that he ends up with, but truth be told if you look at career numbers, this ‘pen shouldn’t be this bad. Think of it this way: if the bullpen were simply bad, as opposed to disgusting, the division would already be locked up. If you’re going to blame Omar for the bullpen, and for Alou and El Duque getting hurt, and for not getting a stud reliever, than you have to give him credit for Tatis, for Church, for Easely, for not trading Murphy, Evans and Niese, etc., etc. (And is Delgado still Omar’s “fault”?) Every team has deals that work and deals that don’t. But to say that the biggest on-field problem facing the ‘08 Mets isn’t the bullpen woes is a ridiculous thing to say. What’s wrong with the ‘08 Mets? BULLPEN, BULLPEN, BULLPEN! The offense is NOT a problem, and the only problem with the starters are injuries. If Maine were healthy, you’d take Pedro as he is as your number 5.
my brother had a good idea…why not just go completely out of the norm? Have the relievers start the game into the 3rd inning, when the bulk of the runs are scored. THEN bring in the starter who could likely go the remainder of the game.
So if you bring the relievers in and the score is 7-3 after the 3rd inning, then what good is it to have Santana comes into the game? He would just be a 137 million dollar mop up man. Nice.
The same post twice!!!! An angel gets its wings!!!!!
i wouldn’t call that a GOOD idea…its an interesting idea, not good
have to bury the brewers tonight. this is the mets extra game and it’s essentially to keep the 2 game lead in the loss column.
niese in a huge game. *shakes head*
then again, at least it’s not lima
I feel bad for the kid. Then again, if he comes through … we’ll know we have a damn good pitcher on our hands.
Could be worse. At least he’s not Brian Lawrence.
And Marquis is pitching for a spot in the postseason roster. He would appear to be their 5th starter atm.
niteplanner: I like your thinking outside the box, but the results could be disastrous. Do you really wanna risk getting blown out early and getting into a hole the hitters couldn’t dig us out from?
And like I posted above, if the relievers put us in a hole on Santana’s day to pitch, then he becomes a mop up man.
That’s three!
“If the season ends, today we’re in the playoffs”
And that’s the kind of complacent thinking that puts this team in the hole it is digging for itself.
Here’s how this week shakes out:
1) MON: Mets lose, lead is cut to 1 game
2) Wed: Brewers and Mets tied for WC
3) Fri: Brews take 1 game lead
4) Sat: Brews eliminate Mets
5) Sun: Mets lose a boo-filled game at Shea to end season 2-5 in their last 7, 6-11 in their last 17
And if there’s justice, Omar is fired next Monday morning…..but he won’t be.
Enjoy the choke as best you can I guess. They’re eliminated for all intents and purposes already.
I think you’re projecting your own insecurities onto those of a team you obviously have some issues with.
Maybe you’re unattractive or overweight and you feel all this anger towards others who are clearly more intelligent and attractive than you are.
I recommend a frontal lobe lobotomy as soon a possible.
I’ll enjoy making you eat crow all winter long
fascinating..tell me when you started to become interested in killing and eating small birds? Usually thats a sign of some mental illness early in life. please go on..
why would he eat crow? and OMG a tough guy on the internets!!!!
dude, relax, you are a real downer on here, what do you expect people to do? I have never once seen a positive post from you and you only appear after the team begins to stumble? Where were you in the good times in july/august? You only came about after the first series of sept against Atlanta, go away troll
please ignore furioso…
i typically do…
i hate trolls
This kid has more problems then can be solved on a blog. He definitely has issues with being the center of attention, hence his ridiculous posts. He’s used words such as ‘I know’, I’m positive’, ‘I guarantee’, when in actuality any rational person knows no one knows how this will play out….
Dr. Lans, you’re killin’ me! LMAO!
Im looking at my tix for the remaning games, and my stomach is turning because i went to all of the games last year at this time and sat with some faithful fans after the game was over, just shaking our heads, and watching the scoreboard of the Phillies games, waiting for the F to appear. Security chased us around after a while because they wanted everyone out, and we refused to leave until we saw the Final. As i look at this years tickets, i just hope that we find a way…for petes sake the bullpen needs to wake up!!!!!
I forget which rookie it was but I recall him stating that he got an incredible lift from the fans chanting his name over and over again.
We need to do that tonight for Niese. Please spread the word.
We need a loud Shea for each and every game of this homestand.
Not only when the Mets are batting, but when they are in the field.
The last home game (where the Mets blew it late against the Braves), the stadium was silent as the bullpen blew the game.
Even the stadium guy did not try to wake up the stadium. What a mistake. As it was unfolding, like in slow motion, the inevitable happened. What if, instead, the stadium came alive. A jolt by the tenth man could make a difference.
Dont give up as a fan. Dont let your team give up. Make a loud statement.
Agree completely… Lets go Met Fans… start chanting Lets Go Mets over and over again these last few games at teh stadium and our season.
This is how the pen fares when given different leads to protect or defecits to hold…
1 run lead: held 1 of 7
2 run lead: held 2 of 6
3-4 run lead: held 7 of 9
5-6 run lead: held 3 of 3 (allowing 4 runs/game in the process)
12 run lead: held 1 of 1 (well thats good!)
tie games: won 3 of 5
trail by one: won 3 of 5
trail by two: won 1 of 2
trail by 3+: won 0 of 6
Something between a 5 run lead and a 12 run lead should be safe…
Ironic that the pen has given the team a chance to come from down one or two runs, and won tie games. Seems like they dont feel the pressure as much in those spots.
These numbers are in August and Sept, for the record.
I’d like to think there was a conspiracy by Bobby Cox to play the Mets like an NLCS and the Phillies ‘just for fun’.
As much as he hates the Mets, I figure he stood up and tried to win against them too.
Geez – we REALLY should never see Heilman again (this season and in a Mets uniform).
This team needs to grow a set and start playing with some heart.
It is all up to Manuel…
MadChas: How the hell do you blame Jerry Manuel for the Mets’ predicament?!
Can he go in and pitch in relief?
All he’s done, under his leadership, is help turn the team around to be in this position
Seaver41: Couple of thoughts on our gangster manager.
It is the managers job to keep his players mentally prepared. Everyone in the Pen looks scared sh_tless.
Aaron Heilman..How can you keep bringing this guy in? He should not make another appearance in a Mets uniform.
Lack of fundamental baseball. Cant lay down sac bunts. Continue to try to lay down a bunt with 2 strikes.
The manager is the motivator..and this team looks any but motivated.
the mets need to score 10 runs per game. end of story. the bullpen needs a 5 run lead at least in order to shine.
So than get the fire back. You know last Tuesday night after losing 1-0 on a great Pelfrey start, it seemed like the Mets would never be capable of winning 3 of 5 again – even against weak teams. I thought they couldn’t score anymore.
The Mets are up against a wall right now but the bullpen did hold up for three straight wins, so one loss shouldn’t punch us in the stomach. We need to hold up strong. We need to be committed to winning and it has to start with tonight. We can’t lose 3 in a row. It will linger. They need to take three or at least two in this series. The Brewers play the Pirates at home. The Mets have to win there own games. It’ll take 4 or 5. Win and you’ll get in. Unfortunately, the NL East is out of their hands but if you aim for that the wild card will be easier to obtain.
This is Omar’s bullpen, true, but these guys have got to play like big-leaguers. It’s beyond comprehension how bad they are.
Show is not a big league reliever. Nor is Heilman. Nor is Sanchez coming off a major shoulder injury.
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.
Heilman has historically been a much better pitcher than this. He is a big league pitcher. And so is Feliciano, and Show’s a LOOGY.
This is on Omar, sure, but it’s also on players not doing their jobs.
Since the end of 2005, Heilman’s numbers have been going downhill. Look at his HR rate and WHIP. But, more significantly, is that he has NEVER had the stomach or the desire for relieving. Even his college coach said this year that he’s miscast. Therefore, he is NOT a ML reliever in my eyes. Nor the eyes of many other observers.
Show is not even a good LOOGY. His ERA is misleading. Almost every critical situation in which he’s asked to get out a lefty, he fails. That’s been the case for the last two years. He’s not a ML reliever in my book.
Yes, Feliciano is a ML reliever. It’s on Omar for counting on guys who lack either the talent, health, or mental makeup to do the job.
It’s on Omar.