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Jayson Stark at ESPN.com relays a statistic from famed sabermetrician Bill James regarding the Mets’ bullpen woes.
Stark writes:
“If all games ended after six innings, those NL East standings would look a whole lot different. If games were six innings, the Mets would be leading this division by 11½ games.”
“Thanks to the best closer in baseball this year, Brad Lidge, the Phillies are 75-0 when they lead after eight innings.”
Stark goes on to note that if all games were just eight innings long, the Mets lead in the East would be 6.5 games.
…as depressing as this whole situation has been, it’s interesting to see just how different things may have been if the bullpen had performed better…
…if this doesn’t show omar and co. what the team’s greatest area of attention is right now, nothing will…
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I think omar and co. sees it loud and clear. His work is cut out for him going into 09 and we will see what he does about it. Just think if we would have converted half of those blown saves or if lidge did not have a perfect save ops….oh well closers are overrated though.
one thing this year has told us – and those numbers – is that bullpens are clearly not over-rated. They are a key to success. This bullpen needs a complete overhaul top to bottom. And I think its time to visit a scenario where you have two dominant closers working both the 8th and 9th innings.
we just have to understand what we have really. The met pen is a bunch of specialists. Next year we just need to get more crossover pitchers and leave the specialist to do just that SPECIALIZE. We need a closer and that will help dictate roles in the bullpen that we need.
Smith-R spec
Feliciano-L spec
Stokes-Long relief crossover
Duaner-crossover middle relief(i say give him one more year to really have an idea if hes going to get back to his old form)
Ayala-Setup man(i think hes earned it with 6 saves)
Closer.
-also you may want to try parnell. Heilman MUST GO this offseason and omar would be wise to package him with show. Omar will be looking for bullpen help in the offseason but most importantly the mets just need to understand who they are and work within themselves.
No bullpen can afford to carry 2, let alone one strict specialist. That’s unrealistic given the number of innings today’s bullpens need to pitch.
You can’t go into the season with that mindset. You have to prepare for every reliever in your pen being able to pitch full innings. If the rotation is especially good, then of course you can play LOOGY-ROOGY if you want. But you shouldn’t plan on it.
“No bullpen can afford to carry 2, let alone one strict specialist. That’s unrealistic given the number of innings today’s bullpens need to pitch. ”
-I beg to differ as im sure teams have certian relievers to pitch to L batters for the purpose of stratigically getting an out.
“You can’t go into the season with that mindset. You have to prepare for every reliever in your pen being able to pitch full innings. If the rotation is especially good, then of course you can play LOOGY-ROOGY if you want. But you shouldn’t plan on it.”
-I dont know what loogy-roogy is. I am in that mindset. I also expect that santana/perez/pelf/#5(an innings eater off FA) will go deep into games thus limiting the pens use. You got your closer for the 9th so thats an inning done with. You got your setupman for the 8th. one inning done. You got 4 or 5 other guys for the 7th or 6th…plus one of those guys (stokes) can eat up more than one inning if need be.
Dirty, name a team that used someone as a strict LOOGY or ROOGY before the rosters expanded.
You will have problems coming up with one, let alone two.
LOOGY is simply the name for lefty specialists (Lefty One Out GuY).
I too want our better starters to go deep into games. But it just doesn’t happen often these days. You’re talking maybe only 1 or 2 starters in all of baseball who rack up the pitch counts. these days. Mostly everyone is out by the 7th inning. So you can’t plan for ideal unrealistic scenarios or you get burned. If they need the bullpen for 3 innings every night for a week, there is no way you can use just LOOGIES and ROOGIES without burning out some guys. Just can’t. And that’s why Willie had to use Show for full innings.
I understand but even coming out in the 7th that leaves 3 outs when 2 are already accounted for. The bullpen i gave is realistice and will some of the LOOGIES and ROOGIES be used for the opposite hand, im sure they will be. My point is just the bullpen needs defined roles. The mets have yet to define anyone to the role and i believe the sooner they do the better. Is the bullpen going to succeed..not all the time as anything in baseball, but if you put your best foot foward and you have a plan you at least stand a chance.
No, I meant that most pitchers are out by the 7th. Which means that there are least 9 outs to get almost every night. That’s with every team. With almost every starter.
So you can’t have your 8th inning setup guy go 6 days in a row. And you can’t even have your LOOGIES and ROOGIES do the 7th (and sometimes the 6th) 3-4 days in a row. You can’t use your pen like that unless you want to burn them out.
As for defined roles, you can only do that if you have reliable setup guys. The Mets didn’t have any last year and this year. And no pen in baseball is stuck on defined roles which they never waiver from. You have to in order to 1) give guys some rest at times and 2) be flexible enough to mitigate a reliever going through a bad period.
Remember, Manuel tried defined roles. It didn’t work.
I’m still waiting for the names of some strict LOOGIES or ROOGIES around the majors. Who are they?
It’s all fine and good in theory. But in reality it doesn’t work so well.
This post and thread should be entitled:
“If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle”
I’m tired of the “what if” scenarios by everyone…man up and play some damn baseball when it counts for once.
Yes I was thinking about pigs with wings….
Omar’s worst move and this team’s downfall?
No doubt about it, not signing Chad Bradford, and going with Scott Schoenweis instead.
Pathetic.
You have a very, very good point here.
Hmmm…I am thinking if games were six innings long, Heilman would be blowing leads in the fourth or fifth innings on a regular basis.
and if the outfield walls were only 250 feet deep……
whatever they do to fix the bullpen is okay except for getting k-rod. there is no chance he will pitch half as well next year and his delivery is an injury watiing to happen.
How do you know that?
I don’t know if I agree with a drop-off in his performance next year, but I hate seeing pitchers get contracts longer than three years, especially relief pitchers.
I agree…I dont think he will have that profound of a drop-off. His IP are not way higher,..just his saves….His walks are up. But he is still adjusting to his new delivery. That said, his delivery looks violent, but actually is better for the arm…just no so much for the legs.
Anyways…point is, giving many years to a reliever is very risky.
ah yes… risky… like giving the ball to anyone in the current Mets bullpen?
Heilman needs to begin intensive primal scream therapy.
Don’t the Phillies already play only six innings in that Little League park of theirs?
you mean the williamsport phillies? yup.
you guys love bringing up that “little league park” haha……stop the excuses already
Anyone know when Maine is scheduled to throw today? Pre-game at Shea, during the game underneath, already pitched this morning… anyone know?
nevermind, found it here:
Maine’s simulated game report
by Colin Stephenson/The Star-Ledger
Monday September 22, 2008, 3:27 PM
John Maine is on the Shea Stadium mound, throwing his second simulated game in three days. He’s now pitching to Argenis Reyes, after throwing six pitches to Ramon Castro – the last a swing and miss.
He’s just thrown six pitches to Argenis Reyes and now he’s working to Robinson Cancel. So far everything seems to be going fine. There’s no radar gun available to me, of course, so all I can do is listen for the pop of bullpen catcher Dave Racaniello’s glove. Jerry Manuel, Mike Pelfrey and Sandy Alomar, Sr. are watching from behind second base, pitching coach Dan Warthen is watching from behind the batting cage.
Cancel got seven pitches, and Marlon Anderson got five. Now it’s Damion Easley. We’re up to 29 pitches now…
Or to think we could of had Lidge and not the phils, but according Omar the “price was too high”?
Nice job Omar!
I believe the D’Backs were asking for Pelfrey.
sorry, Astros
And the Astros got nowhere near a package of a guy like Pelfrey.. so how is it these deals always get done.. and yet the mets couldn’t do them because they teams wanted so much…
And they took bourne instead?
Wow.
Exactly…. everyone loves to call Omar “creative” and out of the box.. and yet every traade for the past 6 months hasn’t been possible because “the cost was too high”
Meanwhile the Phils get Lidge, Yanks Nady and Torres, etc etc…
At some point he had to do something, he instead did nothing.
Note that the Astros GM is former Phillies GM Ed Wade. Often times, when GM’s move to other teams, they tend to give their previous employer discounts. Why? Because there are players the GM drafted/developed in his/her previous system who he wants back.
and as a result we now know the effect of
murphy/parnel/evans/niese when those were the packages other clubs wanted. Why is everyone calling for omar to empty out the farm…so than in a few months everyone can bash omar for not protecting the farm???
Yanks did not get Torres, they got Marte, who has been awful for them.
You guys might want to remember that before the season began the Mets HAD a closer. Lidge wasn’t a necessity at the beginning of the season. And to go one step further, Bourn = Gomez so Mets would have had to give up Cargo in that deal, leading them to have to include F-Mart in the Santana deal. Omar has done a poor job with the pen, but Lidge is hardly his fault. And I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but Marte was awful for the Yankees since the trade.
but yet most of these people would have emptied the farm to get marte. I would disagree only because there was not alot omar could do to improve the pen w/o hurting the farm further after the santana trade. There was not “stud” reliever to go after in the FA market. We had no pieces left for omar to trade off to get a reliever at the deadline and im kinda glad he didnt trade murph/evans/fmart/niese/parnell/kunz.
yeah not trading anyone has worked out really well for us so far…
give me a break guys…
And Lidge WASNT closing when he was traded.. he already lost his job….
and whos to say trading for someone would have went our way…we can play this game all day.
Considring we’re about to watch the Phils hang their 2nd straight divison banner.. I think it’s pretty clear how not trading for anyone has worked out.
The Phillies got Lidge to close. He also regained the closer job towards the end of last year with the Astros. Plus he had a 5.23 ERA in September. He was by far a sure thing.
EWM…please tell us who was available that you know for a FACT was available and obtainable. You talk as if omar just didnt do anything. Please let us know.
For the price they paid.. he was easily worth the risk.
It is a fact he didn’t do anything!
Obviously you nor I know who could of gone for what.. but I watched enough teams upgrade themselves a the deadline to know deals are possible…
Do you really want to hold onto every one of our prospects?
Would you rather when the 2008 NL East, or have Parnell, Carp and Evans?
Prospects are replaceable too.. they have this thing called the draft where you can get more every year.. but Omar won’t go over slot there either.. but that’s a story for a different day.
Wow, Omar gets ripped for sending away a host of players to get Santana, and then he gets ripped for not sending away more for a guy who might not have been necessary prior to Wagner getting hurt…
oh come on…hindsight is 20/20 of course. The lidge trade was a risk…a big risk…and it paid off more than anyone could have expected. They did well…end of story.
a nice clear dose of reality – I like it
I’m not sure Omar gets it.
If all games were one inning and Jose Reyes was spotted second base, we’d be 162-0.
What’s the basis behind this kind of an analysis?
I think he may be responding to the people who say blow up the core of Wright, Reyes and Beltran, which I personally believe is crazy. Our problems the past 2 regular seasons and the 06 post season is the bullpen and that is clear. Ever since Duaner was in the Taxi accident the bullpen has been sh*t. If we look back to ‘06 when we had a good pen for most of the year we ran away with the division.
One word comes to mind
PARNELL
We gave Kunz a shot. The same ol isn’t working
Joe smith in the 8th, and Parnell to close it out.
Somwone please lock Heilman, Feliciano, and Scho in the clubhouse , and dont let them out.
When did Kunz get a shot?
It is the last week of the season. You do not audition unknown 23 year olds for big time roles at this point in the season. A month ago, maybe. But to say a kid who has never had much success in the minors and stunk in college before that is now your closer, because he has faced five batters in mop-up time, is crazy.
I was going to say the same thing… Kunz never really got a shot… Which is why I am stunned he was a September call-up…
I would have liked to see Kunz get a shot back then — he could be closing now.
“Thanks to the best closer in baseball this year, Brad Lidge, the Phillies are 75-0 when they lead after eight innings.”
And in how many of those games has Lidge pitched in? Half maybe?
Also, last I checked Joakim Soria was not named Brad Lidge.
Who cares if Lidge is 1,2,3 or 10.. he’s a million times better then any pen pitcher we have.. and right now that’s why we’re looking up in the division.
Nuff said
True; Soria has had a much better year than Lidge, under the radar.
Can we lay off the Omar & Co. stuff already?
If there’s one thing that’s clear to me reading this blog is that everyone would rather blame someone else for a player’s poor performance than the player himself.
Could Omar have added more names to the pen? Sure. Could the organization be more proactive in promoting young arms? No doubt. But is Omar Minaya the one who refuses to challenge hitters and nibbles his way into baserunners every inning? Is it Jerry Manuel who constantly gets into 3-2 count and hangs pitches?
These guys have pedigrees. It’s not like he ‘ignored’ the bullpen. Wagner, Sanchez, Heilman, Schownewies, Feliciano…they are all on guaranteed contracts. Where did you want all of these fantasy-world shut-down relievers were just waiting for Omar to go get fit on this roster?
As it is he made a nice pickup in Stokes. He released Sosa early in the season. He’s gone out and gotten Ayala. He brought Rincon back. It’s not like he’s done nothing…I love all of these posts about how important the bullpen is. REALLY? Maybe that’s why “Omar & Co.” can’t waive a magic wand and make great relievers appear out of thin air…everyone is looking for them!
Put it on the guys who don’t execute pitches, who pitch timid and lazy and who are the reason they are as bad as they are and stop blaming the guy who trusted their relatively-decent resumes.
Well I guess we should leave all the untapped poetential of the young arms on the bench while we load up the innings on the arms that we will need in the playoffs.
When your house burns down. Would you rebuild it with the burnt wood, or would ya look for new wood to try.
It is ridiculous to say that we need to blame the relievers only. It is just as much Jerry, and Omars fault.
True he brought the arms, but is that really any good if all they do is sit and watch the house burn down.
Well when Jerry is inexplicably still going to Heilman in key spots, I can’t argue with you about his role in things.
“Well I guess we should leave all the untapped poetential of the young arms on the bench while we load up the innings on the arms that we will need in the playoffs”
-this i agree with but thats not on omar. Manuel has to be better at planning things. This can kind of fall on the offense also by not really giving manuel the opporunity to experiment with the young relievers(too many close games).
Good point Dave27. They all really need to step up immediately.
FINALLY!!!!!
great post dave
He asbolutely ignored the bull pen.. what are you talking about??
It was terrible last year.. and he brought in no new talent, other then Matt Wise, Brian Stokes, and Luis Ayala to help with it…
Even at the deadline when it was becoming obvious the pen had holes he still did NOTHING..
Yes we all want this team to go out and fight and take this division ths last week.. but you can’t dismiss the lack of quality in the teams bullpen.. and then look at the 2nd highest payroll in baseball, and NOT blame the GM for a job poorly done.
lol you contradict yourself in the same post.
you say
“He asbolutely ignored the bull pen.. what are you talking about??”
then go on and say
“he brought in no new talent, other then Matt Wise, Brian Stokes, and Luis Ayala to help with it…”
-which one is it..saying he ignored the pen..or admiting he brought in talent AFTER LAST YEAR to….wait for it….HELP OUT
“Even at the deadline when it was becoming obvious the pen had holes he still did NOTHING”
-Im sorry but i dont think emptying the farm for a skittish reliever would be the smart thing to do. What would happen if this “stud” reliever that everyone swears was available anyway blew out his arm in a few starts….we would be out this “stud” reliever and lost a potentially good young player. Talk about short sighted.
“Yes we all want this team to go out and fight and take this division ths last week.. but you can’t dismiss the lack of quality in the teams bullpen.. and then look at the 2nd highest payroll in baseball, and NOT blame the GM for a job poorly done.”
-nobody is dismissing the lack of quality in the bullpen. Um last time i checked the 2nd highest payroll in baseball has a chance to go to the post season and potentially WS…isnt that want you want…..and if you really want to get into this…whats the HIGHEST payroll in baseball doing….go ahead ill wait
Yeah ok.. bringing on Stokes, Ayala, and Wise.. is like trying to save the Titantic with a piece of Duct Tape…
And if the Yanks were in our division.. they’d be in it.. and if we were in theres.. we’d be out of it..
Great point!
so go ahead..please enlighten us with this “stud” reliever that was REALISTICALLY attainable….
“And if the Yanks were in our division.. they’d be in it.. and if we were in theres.. we’d be out of it..
Great point!”
-ok but you missed my point. My point was simple..just because we have the 2nd highest payroll doesnt not constitute for having the best record or having the best team. Look at tampa bay hell look at the marlins. I brought the yankees into the discussion because they HAVE the hightest payroll and they are in the same position that we are..if not worse.
And my point was simple.. if your payroll is the 2nd highest in the game.. or even the 1st highest.. you shouldn’t have such obvious holes.. if you do.. the GM as done a poor job.. and sorry folks.. but he has.
There are plenty of guys we could of tried and gotten.. a Brian Fuentes.. heck even an Eddie Guradro or Aurther Rhodes… anything but the lowest of the low scrap heap guys…
How about some offensive help?Aubrey Huff and his 31 HRs cleared waivers…
He did nothing.. even though we were in a 3 team race..
This team is built to win now.. he shoudl of taken a shot at someobody.. not every propsect you have is going to be a stud…
And with such a high payroll. you SHOULD be able to re-invest in the draft and international market and start all over again.
When we’re all staring at the 2008 NL East Banner in CPB next year, I’m not gonna be saying, whew.. thank goodness we still have Nick Evans and Robert Parnell.
“There are plenty of guys we could of tried and gotten.. a Brian Fuentes.. heck even an Eddie Guradro or Aurther Rhodes… anything but the lowest of the low scrap heap guys”
-ok so wheres your FACTS that omar DID NOT TRY to get any one of those guys?
He didn’t try hard enough cause they’re not here
What more of a fact do you want???
Great.. we still have all our “prospects”.. great.. we’re about to loose the divsion, and are in serious jeopardy of missing the wild card.
Awesome season.
What was the asking price for those guys. Your one of the people that would empty the farm to get guys who “may” help but then turn right around and curse omar for not thinking about the farm. But thats fine EWM i guess we will have to agree to disagree. Maybe you should loan omar your crystal ball so he can make better decisions.
Not every prospect we have is going to be a friggen all star…
When you have the chance do something special.. and ESPECIALLY coming off of last year… you go win the division.
I’m sure keeping al our prospects will be a great comfort when I watch Charlie Manul getting doused with Champnege from Jimmy Rollins.. again.
Thanks Omar.
Good calls all around.
But what did Omar & Co saw the bullpen woes last year as well and what did he do to address them? Went out and got Matt Wise and Steve Register – both of whom have had ZERO impact on the bullpen this year. You could also argue he added by subtracting Mota, but his role is being filled by Aaron Heilman this year.
Meanwhile, the Phillies – who also had bullpen problems last year – went and got Brad Lidge and we all know how that’s working out for them.
I’ve been an Omar supporter for most of his tenure, but he really messed up on the bullpen last offseason. Sure, he’s made a few pickups during the season with what he could. But last offseason was the time to act and Omar came up with bupkis.
He actually did a lot in the offseason. He got us an ace, a starting right fielder (was was great prior to his 2nd concussion of the season – shame on Omar for not having the foresight), and starting catcher who has been underwhelming most of the year, but replaced a guy who hasn’t played pretty much all year.
We had a closer coming into the season . Sanchez was coming back. I expected Heilman to bounce back. Feliciano was solid last year. Shoenweis stunk and has been better (although that doesn’t say much) this year. Joe Smith was expected to be better, but his performance has pretty much been a mirror image of last year. Great at the start and fading as the season went on. Matt Wise was a disaster.
Only thing I fault Omar on is Luis Castillo. That’s not the bullpen. Although, I wouldn’t mind Castillo being the bullpen catcher.
Really? You don’t blame him for banking on Alou to bea healthy?
The Contract he gave El Duque?
For years of Pedro?
How nice of you…
He actually did a lot in the offseason. He got us an ace, a starting right fielder…and starting catcher who has been underwhelming most of the year, but replaced a guy who hasn’t played pretty much all year.
Yes, that’s all well and good. However, none of those guys are in the bullpen (except when maybe Schneider is catching for them).
The bullpen was an issue at the end of last season and bascially, Omar “improved” it by a lot of wishful thinking – Sanchez is coming back, Smith will improve, Heilman will bounce back). In terms of bringing in new talent, he did nothing during the offseason.
The bullpen should be completely gutted – at the very least Heilman and Feliciano should be traded for whatever they can get. As for the rest of them, I really wouldn’t be too broken up if they were traded as well. If they only were able to save HALF the games they blew this season, the Mets would be firmly ensconsed in first place and we wouldn’t be going through all this drama AGAIN.
Do you recall how long and drawn out the process was to get Santana? Our number one need this offseason was an ace. Next offseason it is bullpen help. But the same people saying we need bullpen help are the ones saying we don’t need K-Rod. So, then what? Joe Borowski?
I didn’t say that – I’m all for signing K-Rod and any other decent player they can get their hands on.
There is a reason why bullpens are considered the most fickle aspect of a team. A pen that is lights out one year, can be terrible the next. The reasoning is because of small sample sizes. These guys are coming in and get maybe one inning in a particular game. Therefore, any mistakes they may make are magnified. A starter on the other hand has much more time to recover after a bad start.
For example, the better relievers tend to see anywhere from 80-90 innings per year. For comparison, Mike Pelfrey had roughly that same workload through the middle of June, and has since turned his season completely around.
My point is that it is hard to fault Omar for poor pen construction, when as Dave mentioned, you have many guys who have had a track record of success. While these pitchers are a victim of small sample size, it is the pitchers themselves that have not performed.
Sorry, but I believe Omar is primarily responsible for the terrible bullpen performance in ‘07 & ‘08.
It’s BS that bullpens are a pure crapshoot every year. If that were the case, we wouldn’t have certain teams near the top in bullpen performance consistently year after year. It would be totally random. It is not.
Bullpen construction may be one of the most unpredictable parts of putting together a team, but it takes simply common sense to stay away from relievers like Mota, Show and Wise.
It’s fine to say they should step up, but players are limited by their talents and abilities, and Omar did not put together a very able bullpen this year.
I hope the squawking about the bullpen never dies down. They have been atrocious and may cost the Mets a playoff berth as well as Santana a Cy Young.
Two words:
K. ROD.
“K” is a letter…not a word…
i want to feel good about this upcoming week, but i just don’t
is a split really a goal in this series with the brewers playing the pirates?
the only thing that consoles me is that pinella might be telling his team that it would be better to play the mets in the opening round of the playoffs than any other team
Consider yourself unconsoled, because no professional would ever say, think, or enact such a thing…much less Lou Piniella.
We’ll benefit from pitch counts for Harden and Zambrano and benching of some regulars. Other than that they are just gonna come out and play ball.
Here’s the Monday lineup as the Mets open a regular-season-ending homestand against the Cubs:
Reyes, ss
Murphy, lf
Wright, 3b
Delgado, 1b
Beltran, cf
Church, rf
Castillo, 2b
Schneider, c
Niese, c
***
Pitching coach Dan Warthen posts an inspirational quote each day on a board in the clubhouse by the door. Today he has three. I’ll give you the middle one:
“Think of it this way. Our TV ratings are sky high because no one turns the game off before they are over. If nothing else we are exciting.”
***
John Maine threw 25 pitches today in another simulated game. “Today the ball was jumping,” one teammate who watched Maine said. Look for Maine to get activated for bullpen work. Can’t hurt.
***
The Mets announced their two-year affiliation agreement with Triple-A Buffalo.
nyd
Please for the love of God let Maine be ok to pitch well. This team needs him.
…oh and put Castillo in the bathroom.
nice Bronx Tale reference
lmaoooo bronx tale referance good 1
LOL I’ve been posting that for a while on here. Good to see Mets fans know quality movies!
Castillo has a career .935 OPS against Marquis. You gotta at least start him this game.
Yeah well Easley kind of let Castillo out of the bathroom. That’s the problem.
Ramon Castro is batting .455 against Marquis with 2 homers and 3 RBI in 11 AB’s. Schneider is ONE FOR SEVENTEEN lifetime against Marquis. Righties are hitting .284 with 10 homers against Marquis. Glad to see Jerry is watching the store.
I guess he just figured he should stack the lineup with lefties and ignored that stat.
As per New York Mets Daily, THIS is the quote that should be on teh Mets’ bulletin board:
These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. — Thomas Paine
“…the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.”
Reminds me of, “the champagne will taste that much sweeter.”
We all know the problem, but the problem lies in finding a solution. There are other teams with bullpen woes, and the problem lies in trying to find reliable relievers. So many relief pitchers are hit and miss – its a hard job to do from one year to the next, and that makes it really difficult to go out and get dependable relievers. Who would have predicted that Heilman would be this bad? Who would have known the Heath Bell would turn into a solid reliever? It’s a tough job to do, but lets have some faith that Omar will do his due diligence in the offseason and try to upgrade. Jeremy Affeldt, for one, would be nice, but who knows if he’ll be any good next year. Matt Wise was supposed to help this year, but got hurt and has been MIA.
Lets just not a$$ume that its as easy as it sounds to us.
Ryan Church has alot of protection in this lineup, huh?
Jeez. I think the Mets should bat the pitcher 7th.
Heilman’s numbers as a reliever have been declining since 2005. Further, he has never been suited mentally to the pen. It was only a matter of time before it came to this. An astute GM could have predicted Heilman’s situation.
And, yes, there are other teams with bullpen woes, but the Mets have something other teams don’t — lots of resources. Invest in your bullpen and don’t cheap out on guys like Bradford. And don’t make bonehead moves like Show and Mota. The Mets threw away money on guys like Alou and El Duque. That money would have been better spent on the pen.
It’s hard, but GMs with lesser resources can put together good bullpens. Why can’t Omar?
El Duque became one of our most reliable pitchers in 2006. The 2nd year on his contract was the worst part…not the first. You wouldn’t have picked up Alou’s option this year? I would say you are in the minority on that one.
Teams with lesser resources build their bullpens from within. We’d be waiting a long time for the development of some players.
you love heilman. i don’t mind the guy. you can tell he cares. he was so good for us in 2006. wish he could regain that form, but doesn’t look like it will happen here. whether you blame it on his role or makeup, or whatever. he lost his out pitch…his changeup.
OK, perhaps I can see 1 year for El Duque, but giving him two was throwing money down the drain.
So was picking up Alou’s option. I have always been in the minority here on Alou, but I still believe he’s been more harmful to the Mets than good. It’s not just the wasted resources and injuries, it’s the constant on and off the DL that’s been disruptive to this team. They could never get a flow or rhythm going — until he finally was gone for good this year. And before you bash me for this opinion, consider that Adam Rubin has said basically the same thing.
And it’s not true that teams with lesser resources only build their bullpens from within. They do it with a combo of free agents and smart trades and from within. Just look at the Twins and the Cubs. Yeah, I know the cubs relied on home growns for the most part this year, but they’ve had a strong bullpen for the last few years and part of that was through free agents.
Look at the Red Sox. While their closer is homegrown, they’ve also relied upon free agents in the recent past and that’s how they won their ‘04 title.
And if other teams can do it from within, how come Omar can’t?
I don’t care if he wants to build from within, through trades, or free agency. Just do it. If the talent doesn’t exist to do it from within, then go after free agents. The kind with good numbers on the back of their cards. I’d rather risk money on free agent relievers (provided their baseball card numbers are decent) than risk money on players way past their primes.
From Rubin of the DLN
Here’s the Monday lineup as the Mets open a regular-season-ending homestand against the Cubs:
Reyes, ss
Murphy, lf
Wright, 3b
Delgado, 1b
Beltran, cf
Church, rf
Castillo, 2b
Schneider, c
Niese, c
***
Pitching coach Dan Warthen posts an inspirational quote each day on a board in the clubhouse by the door. Today he has three. I’ll give you the middle one:
“Think of it this way. Our TV ratings are sky high because no one turns the game off before they are over. If nothing else we are exciting.”
***
John Maine threw 25 pitches today in another simulated game. “Today the ball was jumping,” one teammate who watched Maine said. Look for Maine to get activated for bullpen work. Can’t hurt.
btw, tbw marlins just lost making their elimination number at 2
If John Maine could just pitch one quality inning every other day … it would be a HUGE help.
Parnell, Maine, Stokes back end is pretty good.
Maine should be starting. Get K-Rod as the closer. Have either Kunz or Parnell be the setup man. Have Stokes be the longman and use Smith and Feliciano be the specialists.
Heilman owes every single Mets fan a free punch to the groin, imo.
…….cuz that’s exactly what he’s done to us in ‘06, ‘07 and ‘08.
lmaoo yea but i doubt theres anything left
There is a silver lining in all this. If games were 10 innings the Mets would likely be 10 games back.
hahaha – well said.
Oh By the way! The Brewers are 11-1 vs the Pirates this year.
We have to take at least 3 here!
Brian Schneider 1 for 17 in his career against Marquis. Castro 5 for 11 with 2 HRs.
Guess who is starting tonight.
if games were shorter, starters would be expected to pitch 3-4 innings and we’d still have bullpen problems.
Dan Wharthen put this on the board in the locker room today:
“Think of it this way. Our TV ratings are sky high because no one turns the game off before they are over. If nothing else we are exciting.”
NY Mets Daily posted a Thomas Paine quote, which applies to where the Mets find themselves:
These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. — Thomas Paine
Ahh, good old Thomas Paine.
Aren’t the parallels just creepy? (and by that I mean how the quote applies to the NY Mets…not comparing the Revolutionary War to the Mets stretch drive…)
This isn’t little league. No IF the game was shorter cr*p.
These are MLB players, they play 9 innings and if they can’t do their job they shouldn’t have their job.
Isn’t it obvious now. All we need to do is fix this pen by going out and getting a respected closer like K-Rod or Soria. The rotation is fine and will prob be better with Pedro leaving and Maine coming back. Also the offense will be virtually unchanged and could be stronger if we dump Castillo. We just need to make minor changes to the rotation and the offense. But there needs to be a huge change in the bullpen. We need a new set up man and a new closer for sure!
The funniest thing about all this is that this is a tremendous oppotunity for someone from the bullpen to stepup and prove they belong on the PostSeason roster with a chance to pitch in critical games for this team…
This is where you earn future contracts and no one is stepping up to do so… It is incredible to me…
Mets 2009
Closer: K-Rod
Setup men: Kunz and Parnell
Specialists: Feliciano and Smith
Longman: Stokes
Well we pretty much have an idea of who cant pitch in a big spot. We keep seeiong the same people fail in the same spot day after day.
Post season Bullpen
Stokes
Smith
Rincon
maine
Muniz
Parnell
NOT MUNIZ, MUNIZ IS WORSE THAN HEILMAN!!!!!!
Regarding the bullpen, all I have is four words:
Aaron Heilman, execution style.
if I had bought that lottery ticket the other day… come on, this bullpen is Omar’s doing, even though he bought in Santana, he did NOTHING to improve a bullpen that was terrible during the ‘07 season.
I agree and by the way Santana fell into his lap cause nobody else wanted to pay him. His biggest off season move would have been Church and Schnider. This comming off a collapse.
RIDICULOUS.
Fans and the press where basically saying Minaya had to give up Reyes for Santana, and now you come back on September 22nd, 2008 to say Minaya acquired him on accident?
The other teams could have traded for Santana and chose not to and low balled Minnesota, in the meantime Minaya waited the situation out, refused to deal Jose Reyes or even consider it and he got Santana.
Without dealing Fernando Martinez the other glaring must have in any deal scenario surrounding the Mets.
Minaya is not the worlds greatest GM, but I would say I have yet to see that person anywhere as is. But when he does things correctly to the Mets advantage they can’t simply be swept away as luck for pure convenience of argument.
Non-sense that he did nothing, everyone was counting on rejuvenation from Duaner Sanchez, he might not have been the second coming, but a contribution from Matt Wise would have helped, and Heilman going from above average to total disaster was on who’s radar?
Couple that with Billy Wagner coming unhinged.
Minaya is responsible because the is the GM, but that does not mean that nothing was done and options were not considered.
C’mon Patrick. It’s folly to rely on a guy just coming off of rehab for a major shoulder injury. No GM would do that. If Sanchez worked out, then fine. that’s gravy. But you can’t go into the season thinking he will be the Sanchez of ‘06. And I don’t think they did.
And Matt Wise stunk last year. His whole career he’s had very iffy numbers for a reliever. He was a risk.
As for Heilman, anyone who’s watched him closely over the last few years would know he’s not happy. Whether he should or should not be happy is irrelevant. If he’s unhappy in his role, change it or trade him. Get rid of him. It’s folly trying to keep using someone in a role in which they are ill suited for.
As for Wagner, he fell off late last season, and because of his age, Omar should have taken extra steps to help ensure a strong pen this year.
IMO, it’s not enough that options were considered or that he got rid of a terrible Mota., That still left Show in place and a bunch of other relievers who were risky.
Man, you have some sort of unhealthy obsession with thinking you can read Heilman’s mind…..except for one great game against Florida in 2005, he was about the worst starter anyone could imagine.
Maybe he has had some success the last few years BECAUSE he isn’t starting.
I do understand your complete obsession, but man, posting your opinions of Heilman—which we all know by now—again and again and again and again….if he isn’t happy, maybe he should retire and do something else.
And he is NOT necessarily ill suited for the pen, as he has had infinitely more success as a reliever than as a starter.
Something is clearly wrong, and most likely after the season we will find out he has been injured since about the first week of April, as he was unhittable in spring training, irrelevant as that may be.
Uh, no. I can’t read his mind. But I can certainly read the news reports and do so quite often.
I guess you don’t or you would know that 1) His agent called Omar a few winters ago to tell him Heilman would welcome a trade as he doesn’t like being in the pen and 2) His college coach who is still in contact with Heilman said this summer he’s better suited to be a starter.
Man, if you don’t know Heilman is unhappy in the pen either you don’t pay attention to the Mets or you just aren’t watching them. It’s no secret and you don’t have to be a mind reader to know it or even read the news reports.
except for one great game against Florida in 2005, he was about the worst starter anyone could imagine.
I guess you really don’t pay attention to the Mets. There was a series of games right before Heilman went into the pen in ‘05 in which he pitched fairly well as a starter.
And Pelfrey before this year has been as horrid as Heilman was. Not to mention someone named Johan Santana when he first started out. I guess you never heard of him. :wink:
And he is NOT necessarily ill suited for the pen,
I believe he is totally ill-suited for the pen. Doesn’t have the heart or stomach for it. His college coach and other fans agree with me too.
Just because he’s had some success there, doesn’t mean that’s an ideal spot for him.
but man, posting your opinions of Heilman—which we all know by now—again and again and again and again….if he isn’t happy, maybe he should retire and do something else.
Hey man, there’s an easy solution if you don’t like my posts — DON’T READ THEM.
I don’t care what you think of my opinions of Heilman. I will continue to post them as I see fit.
And saying he should retire is the dumbest thing when all they have to do is trade him OR give him his freedom and he’ll have no problems getting a job with another team. I guarantee you. A lot of people throughout the league know he’s been miscast.
Where is Jorge Sosa when you need him…
i would like to see us trade for brian fuentes and jon rauch.It could make a big difference.
Or trade for sam gervacio a minor league k-rod whos in houstons system.Or sign k-rod.
how about we have a lefty righty deal ala orosco/mcdowell? fuentes/cordero?
and if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle…
This is one of the reasons I’d suggested over the weekend that (although it will never happen) Lidge should be considered a legitimate MVP candidate and Cy Young contender. When you look at what differentiates teams in the East, he’s it, knocking on 40 saves with none blown. If they win the division by a game or two, he’s the difference. In another year, it would be a less compelling argument. But when bullpen implosions have been so commonplace, the psychological edge of having a guy who’s a lock in the 9th makes a huge difference…
Phils traded for Brad Lidge, signed Chad Durbin, re-signed JC Romero, signed Rudy Seanez and dealt nothing for Scott Eyre. They have ERA+s of 238, 150, 167, 120 and 218 respectively.
All of those players potentially could have been Mets. Three were free agents and Eyre was dealt for nothing so it wouldn’t have cost us a top prospect. All of them except for Seanez have a better ERA+ than every Met reliever except Wagner. And Seanez is better than all but three others.
But Minaya did all he could? How do you get outdone by the Phils GM who has significantly less money to spend???
11.5 game lead isn’t exactly fair.
How many runs have the Mets scored in the first 6 innings this year? How many in the last 3? Where do they stand in the MLB?
The bullpen is weak, for sure. But the bats have never done much at the end of our games.