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According to multiple reports, the Mets will hold a 
conference call this morning to announce a three-year contract extension for Omar Minaya.
I agree with bringing Minaya back.
I understand needing to give him an extension – so to avoid lame-duck status, which could encourage him to act irrationally.
However, a three-year extension does seem a bit excessive. I would not go so far as to say it is ‘absurd,’ but I find it difficult to justify when considering the resources he has had, and the lack of post-season success it has returned.
That said, the Mets are significantly better since Minaya took charge, they are selling more tickets, returning better ratings, and, as the Metropolitans recently wrote, “If you take a look at his worst three moves, are they really that terrible?”
Yes, one playoff appearance in four years is disappointing, but when compared to his best transactions, and considering four-straight seasons above .500, and the level of hype that surrounds this franchise compared to just five years ago, Minaya has earned the right to remain in the driver’s seat. His biggest failure was not acquiring a relief pitcher mid-season to help out a weak bullpen. However, no team acquired a significant relief pitcher at the deadline, and more or less every contending team had been looking for one. Minaya was left on the sideline, but so were most of the league’s GMs.
And so, now that Minaya will remain as GM, the Wilpons must set a different set of goals for him.
The Mets need to get younger, and resemble the tough, hard-working, exciting team that the majority of the team’s fans most enjoy watching. This is not just the business of baseball, it’s also entertainment.
Minaya has a strong, exciting, entertaining group to build upon, but that is not enough. Also, he cannot keep relying on a weak free-agent market to cover up the minor-league system’s deficiencies. Otherwise, as Adam Rubin put it in the Daily News earlier in the season, the vision Minaya articulated four years ago will continue to be built on ‘a house of cards.’
I wrote the following in a post to MetsBlog in June, and I still feel the same way:
“The thing is, and what worries me, is that the old market – in which Minaya worked so well – is now changing, and being run by a younger, different-thinking generation.
“Smaller-market teams are now locking up their best young talent, meaning these players are less likely to hit the open market. There is more parity in baseball, and so teams are less likely to make trades. Lastly, players are breaking down and performing worse in their late 30s, probably due to the league’s new performance-enhancing drug policy, and so relying on older talent may not be as effective as it was just a few years ago.
“I hope Minaya is able to adapt. I’m willing to bet that he can.
“As I said (in May), I sense that the Mets are at a crossroads. Minaya did outstanding work, and did what was necessary to get from Howe to here. However, I have a feeling that more work will need to be done to get from here to a World Series ring – let alone remain over .500.”
He is going to have the opportunity, and it appears he will have four more years to get it done.
i like how the mets have time to hash out these contracts, but fail to send postseason ticketholders even a cursory email about the refund process.
we really our their absolute last priority.
i’d tend to think thats any team
See, this is the things I hate is when a fan picks on something the Mets do , that likely every MLB team does.
last year there was postseason ticket info posted on the site the day after we were eliminated, and it STILL took a month to get a refund. four days later, there is not so much as an acknowledgement that this team owes a lot of very disappointed fans a lot of money.
also, the twins site does have information about refunds, and they were only knocked out tuesday night. the mets site doesn’t say a thing about refunds, but it is happy to point you in the right direction to deposit money on 2009!
calm down…you obviously know what the process is…deal with it
it’s a matter of attitude. i wouldn’t put up with complete ignorance from any other business i deal with, so why should i put up with it from the mets?
You put up with complete ignorance every single day and likely excuse it, you just do not have a Supermarket, Gas Station, Post Office, Coffee Shop, Pizza Parlor, Fast Food Joint or Government blog to post on, in order to complain about it in front of anyone that might care.
I called them yesterday and they said it would take ‘a few weeks.’ No word yet on partial plan holders, but it does not sound likely that they’ll offer them at the shrine to Citibank.
i’m fine with that. the last couple years at shea has been fun (except for the end) but i have no desire to pour more money into an organization that’s blindly headed in the wrong direction.
they’ll offer mini plan holders something - they are getting the season holders situated.
Coop - I’ll believe that when I see it.
they’re not even offering mini plan holders full season plans at this point. pity, because i would have been happy to buy a full season just a few weeks ago.
hey we need to get rid of maniya he a pice of s**t. he cant even get a good bullpen guy before the trade deline.
As Adam Rubin wrote yesterday, he took a team with an $83 million payroll and ballooned it to $140 million. The results have been utterly underwhelming. A three year extension is absurd.
which is true…but look at just even the three years before omar took control of the team…those days were not pretty.
But is not being as bad as Phillips/Duquette really an accomplishment?
phillips built a team that won a pennant and went to the playoffs twice. omar has not.
also, we have yet to see the bad end of the omar years. that happens after omar gives manny a mo vaughn contract.
I’m not a huge steve phillips fan, but he did get us to the World Series, which omar never has, and he did develop Wright and Reyes, who have more to do with Omar’s success than anything else. Also, how many of you thought the Roger Cedeno, Robbie Alomar, Mo Vaughn team was going to be a bust when that season started?
Well, he did have to be talked out of going after Sammy Sosa, so I suppose it’s only a matter of time until Omar signs his Mo Vaughn.
@ gina-not a great accomplishment but an accomplishmen non the less
His contract should state that he may not
trade any player under the age of 26.
Phillips did have success here but e couldn’t keep his zipper closed on the job which I don’t think helped him much.
I don’t buy the “younger generation” talk - just look at the Phils with old timer Pat Gillick in the drivers seat.
I believe stability is important and I think he does want to win but Omar now has to sink or swim.
Steve Phillips was the man credited with finding Jose Reyes only because he was the GM at the time. Eddy Toledo was the scout who discovered him, and he told Omar about the kid. Omar was the one who convinced Phillips to sign the kid he never saw before. Then Phillips tried to trade him in the Alomar deal but they opted for Escobar instead.
And he offered Wright for an aging Jose Cruz, but Ricciardi decided to give Cruz another shot to rebound instead.
Omar was actually the one that found all the gems in the system when Phillips was at the helm — Steve liked to trade his prospects for stars, which rarely worked for him.
to be fair — and Phillips has said this recently on ESPN regarding the Johan deal — more “prospects” in a deal for a star wind up failing then the star. His major fault was not knowing which stars were on the downside. Johan is a guy you give up those prospects for, Jose Cruz is not.
Bottom Line:
Highest payroll in NL. One post-season appearance in 4 years.
Matt,
Let’s have a poll on this one.
The Mets opening day Payroll in 2003 was 117 million, in 2004 it did go down to 96 million, but anyways the numbers simply are not accurate.
i’d rather have 4 more years of omar,than say 4 more yrs of
STEVE PHILLIPS
DAN( HAVE I GOT A DEAL FOR YOU ) DUQUETTE
DRUM ROLL PLEASE…….. M. DONALD GRANT
even though we have rehashed this issue it feels like 100x in a matter of a week, before it gets ugly in here..thanks matt for writing a balanced review of minayas tenure. I personally would have liked to see what minaya is capable of knowing that he is not guarenteed a job after 09. This offseason is crucial to the future of this franchise and i would have liked to see the extra motivation knowing hes in the hotseat and has to get something to work. His objectives are cut out for him…he just needs to get the job done
That’s what I would be affraid of Dirty. I one year deal. I am affraid he would take a win now at all cost approach and set the team back 10 years.
good point.
I don’t think anyone has said he’s terrible, just that he hasn’t been great either. So far his tenure has been so-so and I’m not sure that deserves the vote of confidence that a 4 year extension is.
After 2006, he either traded or lost Heath Bell, Chad Bradford, Darren Oliver, and Matt Lindstrom, with literally nothing in return. All of those guys could have helped the team a lot the last two seasons, yet he gets nearly no criticism for that, you know what I’m sayin’?
He has gotten plenty of criticism for that.
Right, $6 million worth of criticism
He has been criticized plenty by the press and posters here for those moves/non moves.
You didn’t exactly specify “ownership” in your initial comment.
The biggest mistakes Omar has made were in letting Bradford and especially Oliver walk. Those guys were stellar for the Mets and deserved extensions. We have Joe Smith in place of Bradford now, which is okay - but Smith is not yet as good as Bradford, and no bullpen arm we’ve had since 2006 has been as valuable as Darren Oliver was. Every effort should be made to bring him back this offseason. He struck out Ortiz last night in a big spot and still has nasty stuff.
Bradford Omar misjudged the market. Smith has had just as good of numbers however. Olliver was a tough case. He was a great long reliever that was off the scrap heap. Many on here were all over him for siging a washed up Oliver. Then with him in line for a big pay raise Omar cut bait and we have yet to have a reliable long man until Stokes this season.
Why is it guys like you only bring up a few negatives without ever bringing up the positives. Can you really only see one side of an arguement?
7 out of the 12 players the Red Sox fielded last night were young homegrowns. I think that’s the way the Mets need to go eventually. And that wasn’t all due to compensatory draft picks. 5 of the 7 were 2nd round picks or later.
This is the way the Mets (and Yankees) need to go. To expect to win through free agents or older players on costly contracts is cost prohibitive, You’re also more likely to have more jaded, less committed players.
It takes not only a smart organization to draft well, but one with the commitment in place to develop these kids and give them opportunities. I hope Omar will be more committed to youth in the future, but his comment the other day that you can’t go young in NY was troubling.
For what it’s worth the yankees have been going that way, slowly, but they have been trying to head in that direction.If nothing else they’ve been targeting high ceiling talent in the draft. I’m really not sure what we’ve been doing in the draft the last 3 years.
We’ve been losing out on premium talent because we refuse to pay above slot.
The slotting issue is a false one. No one can ever give any good examples except for Beato who was drafted in the 18th round.
Moreover, 5 of the 7 young homegrowns in the field last night for the Red Sox were drafted in the 2nd round or later. So it wasn’t “premium” talent on the field last night.
You don’t have to do it with just first round talent.
There were several examples in this draft. But I think it was more because of them trying to target low risk, and usually low reward, quick turn around players. Which I think is as big a problem as trying to stick to the slotting system.
Also you can get premium talent in later rounds, it’s usually just bigger risk type talent, either younger or they have signability issues or they’re really raw or something. The Red Sox drafted Pedro Alverez in 2005 in the 14th round and just couldn’t sign him. Obviously it’s safe to say he was premium talent. The problem is we don’t see to want to take risks with players.
They drafted Allan Dykstra that year too in like the 35th.
A farm system doesn’t come overnight. Theo took over the Sox for the ‘03 season, if I recall correctly. At the time, the team had a good base of prospects, and now, 5 years later, they are mainly homegrown. When Omar took over, the farm system was barren. Today, 2 of the Mets best 3 players are homegrown which really has to count for something…its the quality vs, quantity argument. I’m fairly certain that most people would opt for Wright/Reyes over any of the homegrown Sawx.
Omar was also tasked with building a winning team while paying attention to the farm team…however, one usually comes at the cost of the other. In order to get around this, Omar has stepped up his international scouting, in an effort to stock up the minor league system. Through international free agency, Omar is able to sign players who are very talented. However, they are also very young and raw, so their development time is longer than someone coming out of the draft. Our favorite example is FMart, who was signed a few years ago, yet is still at AA, at not even 20. It takes time, but once you get that pipeline going, with care, it will always provide resources. We are geting closer to that point, but as fans, must remain patient.
Yes, Cashman has been trying but 1) I don’t think he’s as good as Theo. So no matter how committed he is, if he doesn’t draft well, then that’s not gonna work and 2) He’s been hampered in the past by ownership. For example, I don’t think Cashman wanted to bring back A-Rod on a 10-year deal but ownership got in the way. A deal like that interferes with plans to go younger and in-house.
The Mets have been targeting middle relievers…
The Red Sox were allowed to grow their players, though — the Mets, being in NY, have a lot of pressure to make the big moves — not to mention that the team lost basically two-three of first round picks by losing them to signing big free agents. I know, DPs are crap shoots anyway — but that’s the name of the game. Can you imagine if Omar didn’t pull off the trade for Johan this year, and how much we’d be up in arms that we didn’t trade Humber/Gomez/Mulvey/etc when we had the chance? I’m not defending Omar, just saying that’s he’s made the Mets competitive by spending money. He would have never been here had Kazmir/Zambrano never happened.
the red sox are under a ton of media pressure, probably more than the mets. remember theo slipping out of fenway in a gorilla suit?
omar’s strength is supposed to be tapping dominican prospects, and i haven’t seen these guys. one more bad year and and fmart is going to be branded a bust. and now our “top prospect” is another teenager we won’t see for 3 years if at all.
anyone can write a big check. i’ve seen as many good trades as bad out of omar, and very little player development.
Just curious … where are the bad trades Omar made?
Bell was terrible as a Met, and being a rookie, Willie was never going to use him anyway.
Bannister, while not likely headed to prison like Mr. Burgos, is not a MLB caliber pitcher. Bannister is trash.
Lindstrom, look at his miserable minor league career in the Mets system and you will see why Omar jumped to deal him away.
Owens has a funky delivery and, predictably, it landed him on the DL for most of the last two seasons.
Milledge, had to go. And Chucrch plus Schneider was a worthy haul.
The Red Sox were able to grow their players and compete at the same time. I’m not sure what that has to do with media pressure. And the Red Sox have a larger payroll than us I believe, so I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make.
As I said, 5 of the 7 homegrowns on the field last night were NOT first round or compensatory picks. If Theo can field a successful team with lots of young homegrowns who weren’t first-rounders, why can’t Omar?
Omar has certainly suffered by giving up first round picks due to signing free agents, but part of that is his own fault. Theo has also signed free agents, but he also offers players who leave arbitration so he gets back those picks. But Omar can’t do that because the players who leave the Mets are usually old or crappy who won’t bring back picks even if he offered them arb. That’s his fault for the type of players he always acquires. For example, Alou and El Duque wil probably just retire. No picks from them. And even if they didn’t retire and went elsewhere, their diminished performances the last two years wouldn’t warrant picks.
And going young doesn’t mean you don’t make big moves. The Red Sox spent a ton on Matsuzaka, Lowell, Schilling, and Drew recently. Not to mention Varitek when he was a free agent.
Just making the Mets competitive when you have the highest payroll in the NL is not good enough.
right, but the Red Sox built that foundation by going all in with virtually zero homegrown talent in 2004.
Ortiz, Bellhorn, Cabrera, Mueller, Varitek, Ramirez, Damon, Kapler
Schilling, Pedro, Lowe, Wakefield, Arroyo…
their system guys Youkilis and Nixon were bit parts.
and even the team that won last year, the absolute most critical piece was Beckett via a trade of Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez.
Sure, but in 2004, Theo had been there for only 1 year at that point. You seriously don’t think he can turn around an organization in 1 year, do you?
Since then though, he has tried to put more of an emphasis on young homegrown players and we are seeing the results this year and last.
Even if Lowell and Beckett were the key pieces to last year’s title, you could see the foundation of Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Papelbon, and Lester starting to form.
This year, Beckett may be too injured to even be a key postseason factor. And the foundation of that team now is clearly the young homegrowns. Even if they don’t win another title, I think it’s impressive the way they’ve changed the focus of their team while still maintaining success.
Once again, no consequences for failing. When he first came on board in 2005, he said the plan was to rebuild in 05, contend in 06 and go to the World Series by 07. Still waiting Omar.
I’m not saying he should be fired outright, but they didn’t even reconsider giving him a 3 year extension once the Mets failed to make the playoffs again.
i agree with omar returning. should have been a two year extension making three total.
the wilpons are about business unlike the steinbrennars who put winning first:
jeff: “we over-achieved”
fred: “meaningful games in september”
the wilpons see omar as a guy who led to more tickets sold and more profit over the last 3+ years.
minus three tickets right here
It really makes no difference how long the extension is. Omar can be fired at any point. 6 million is not a lot to swallow for the Mets.
And Steinbrenners have won exactly what in the last seven years? Yes, they make the playoffs - but how much grief do they get from their own fans and even US looking in from the outside making fun of them having the highest payroll in sports and nothing to show for it…I still have big Yankee fan friends of mine who are ready to back up the truck this year…when in 2002, who thought they wouldn’t be unstoppable with Giambi? Then RJ? Then A-Fraud? It’s apples to apples really — steinbrenners say they want to win, and usually they at least make the playoffs (barring this year), but they are in it for what the Wilpons are — the Benjamins.
yes, but these fans are all idiots and we just make fun of them because we can. billy beane had it right when he said that the playoffs are a crapshoot. a 162 game season is the real indicator of how good a team is, and in our case, how it hasn’t been good enough.
Oh for crap and Billy Beane, that is his out clause for never getting it done in the playoffs.
The regular season can be just as much a crap shoot, based on what division you are in and whom you get to play x number of times.
The Brewers for example because they play in a division with 6 teams do not play their rivals 18 times they play them 15 times. How might three more games against the Astros, Cardinals, Cubs and Reds have effected the Brewers season vs. the 15 they got against the Pirates?
The whole thing has elements of randomness to it.
Not getting into the playoffs because they missed it by one game is hardly Minaya’s fault. The bullpen, yeah, that’s kind of his fault but the actual players not being able to perform for one game to pull off a win? How is that Minaya’s fault?
hey listen, i know why a lot of people on here bash minaya. YES, in hindsight, he’s made soem bad moves. But i defend him all the time. He’s made a lot BETTER moves than bad ones. Paul Lo Duca, Ollie, Maine, JOHAN…these are all good moves. WIth Burgos’s recent killing spree, the bannister trade FINALLY looks like it’s REALLY in favor of KC (i thought the jury was out til now)..and in hindsight the heath bell deal was bad (although i think he just needed a change of scenery from NY)…but still, minaya is a better GM than peo[le give him credit for.
NOW, yes, the bullpen was bad last year and he didnt do much to help it. He banked on Dirty Sanchez coming back 100% and that was a gamble he lost, but honestly, a LOT of people thought he’d come back, it was a year and a half he was out….Also, if ANYONE said at the beginnig of the season that heilman was gonna have a 6 ERA, would u have believed them? He took a gamble and lost..that doesnt make him a BAD gm, he just made a mistake that im SURE he’s gonna fix this year. Or at least try to…now if he does next to nothign like last year to fix the pen, THEN i’ll jump on the “omar’s a moron” bandwagon..but until then, he’s earned his extension. Plain and simple
Minaya kept F-Mart and Pelf in the Santana trade. I think he’s trying to go young.
Also, just because he’s been given a contract doesn’t mean his job won’t be on the line if he messes up royally or a scape goat is needed. See Willy.
Wasn’t it Minaya who signed Reyes and Wright pretty cheaply? And aren’t there young free agents available like CC and K-Rod? I don’t think Omar’s relying on old FAs.
I like Omar.
i followed every move he made and I am aware of what was available when he made the moves.
I think he has some great trades and a couple of bad ones, He is human and doesn’t have the ability to see into the future.
C’mon people the Johan Santana trade, regardless of how some of the prospecrts will turn out to be it was a no brainer and he got it done.
He still saw use in Oliver Perez when Ollie may have eventually been dropped from his team and look what Ollie gave us.
and John Maine.
Give him 10 years I don’t care. Some post said he wishes Omar had been given a one year so he is motivated to really get the team going.
That is extremely dangerous for a GM. He’ll go out and overspend and won;t think long term. Let him settle in and know that he can bring up the guys he drafts.
All good points.
But, yeah, I guess I don’t get this extension when he has 1 year remaining to, essentially, earn an extension. Because if they fail to make the playoffs next year then he has to go.
Spending money is easy. We need a pipeline. Minaya promised that and so far not much to show for it. Danny Murphy and Nick Evans are not core pieces, sorry.
If you look at the Dodgers and Cubs, they have spent money, but also brought up a number of key players from the minors. Until we do this we will be chasing our tail. Money can only take you so far.
Did you forget we made trades losing Gomez, Humber, Mulvey, Guerra and Milledge? All of those could’ve been used this year.
except for Guerra
Eh, I think you have to look a couple years back at other trades and not the ones this past off season that affected us this season.
How could we have used Gomez this year? Murphy > Gomez this season. Not even close, nor debatable. The Twins pitched Humber for maybe 10 innings this season, Mulvey did not play, Guerra, obviously, did not play either. Milledge looked good in the 2nd half, but kind of hard to predict the guy we got in return would suffer 2 concussions and miss a good chunk of the season.
Um, yeah, four of those five guys brought in some dude named Johan. Ever heard of him? I hear he’s supposed to be this big time pitcher or something?
I know, I was just explaining part of the reason why our pipeline is diminished.
We have a lot of talent that’s still a couple of years away from making an impact on the ML level.
And, even if Danny Murphy and Nick Evans aren’t centerpieces, they are still solid peripheral players who weren’t on anyone’s prospect radar, but came up and performed well.
Buffalo is a demanding city as far as their team is concerned, so I hope that will be another good level for the young guys as well. Plus, I want to see them before they hit New York,.
As far as I can tell the young talent we have is like 4-5 years away from hitting ML, which means they’re probably to young to really say definitively whether they’ll be able to make an impact at the ML level at all. I think the question most of us have is why, with our resources, is the talent so far away.
And I understand that we made trades but honestly the talent we’ve been trading away hasn’t ended up being that impressive either.
Well, let’s see - in 2005 we got Pelfrey, Niese and Parnell - guys who have made or are about ready to make an impact.
In 06 we got Smith, Mulvey and Murphy. In 07 we got Kunz, Rustich, Moviel, Vineyard… These are all guys who are on the cusp.
It’s unreasonable to expect every pick to pan out, but 3 per year so far that are about ready seems OK to me. I mean, we only have 25 spots.
About half of those guys grade out as middle relievers at best in the ml, and Moviel and Vineyard are both 3-4 years away themselves.
That’s what they were drafted for. What is the problem with that?
You seem to think that the farm system should just be busting with talent, when the reality is that isn’t true for any team, let alone the Mets. It’s all a big guessing game, and some teams have fared better than we have.
Go Brewers!
They are my NL post season team.
I want Rays-Brewers in the series so Fox can commit collective suicide.
lmao
I like Omar but why are we extending him four years? A one year deal would have been more like it. Here’s why:
1- Bullpen- Since 2006 we have struggled in the bullpen. In fact, since the Duaner injury this area has gotten progressively worse. It is the GM’s responsibility to fix it. We counted on Schoenweiss, Heilman and an injured Duaner Sanchez. Enough said.
2- For two years in a row we have had essentially rookie pitchers start critical late season games. Phillip Humber (2007) and Jon Niese (2008). Why have we not replaced the “swingman” abilities of Darren Oliver? If you are going to go with rookies in these spots then why not give them a start in July or August so that their first starts are not in the final week of September?
3- It was Omar’s decision to sign and keep fossils like Alou and El Duque here when it became apparent that they were no longer capable of contributing. It was his job to realize this and have a Plan B as it were. We didn’t seem to have that plan. The disastrous signing of Luis Castillo will result in paying him for four years of nothing and knowing the Wilpons of cutting back somewhere else.
4- What are we doing about our catcher position. Schneider we were told was a “great” defensive catcher. He is nothing of the sort. He doesn’t throw out runners. He might call a good game but he doesn’t hit a lick. When the key offensive players on this team don’t hit he only compounds the problem. Ramon castro continues to be a funny guy in the clubhouse but he is perenially injured. He is never in shape so what he adds and when he adds it is always a question. We have limited prospects in the minors at this position. So I ask where is Omar’s plan?
Sorry for the long post. Don’t get me wrong Omar has done some good things. However, is record is still open to question. Until he resolves these problems we will struggle.
As to #3 - After the September Alou had in 2007, I think anyone would have picked up that option.
I don’t think he has a problem with picking up the option. It’s not bringing in a plan B. Although I guess you can say Pagan was plan B but he wasn’t exactly the most proven plan B you could have.
I think he expected Alou to play 100 games. You could have made it for 62 games with Endy and Pagan.
No, he said that they were unable to contribute. After September 07 - for Alou - that was clearly untrue.
Hey real, expecting a 42-year old to play 100 games is part of the problem. Can you name any 42- year-olds who have played 100 games recently? Without the use of PEDs.
That speaks to someone’s judgment. That’s part of the problem.
No way - what are the chances Alou repeats that? That is to me Omar’s biggest flaw - his infatuation with big-name broken down veterans (and it helps one of his BFF’s is Felipe Alou - Moises dad). I woulda said - nice knowin Moises. Good luck getting a contract next year (of course, he would have played 150 games and been a comeback player of the year candidate anywhere else LOL ;-) )
And Sheafan, little bit of triva for you. How many games did Darren Oliver start for us? Was he really a “swingman’?
would darren oliver have started games for us down the stretch in 2007 or 2008? i think he would have. but i think he should have gotten the start in 2003 nlcs game 3.
Save the NLCS and the Victor Zambrano-run-off-the-field games, real, you make a good point about actual games Oliver started (I know, he didn’t actually start those games, but those are two that stand out when DO really took it like a man). Mets fans tend to romanticize guys who had a few good runs (like the two games I mentioned)…meanwhile when he was let go, I think the general consensus in forums like this is that Oliver was surplus. Kinda like the infatuation with Super Joe Mcewing. What was the point of that guy anyway?
Ahahahaha. Thank you for reminding of Zambrano running off the field. Didn’t he do that in the final game he pitched for us? Pretty appropriate ending.
we needed a darren oliver the past two years whether he was named darren oliver or not. sele was supposed to be that guy last year, and he wasn’t as good, but we had really no one to nail that job down this year.
it’s an issue of depth, which this team under omar has almost always lacked.
He may have only started a few games, but he was a great long man who could also setup. I didn’t have as much of an issue with them parting ways with him as I did with Bradford. But they should have brought back Oliver nonetheless.
He did not start ANY games.
It doesn’t matter, Real. The point is Oliver pitched 2 innings or MORE 19 times in 2006 for the Mets. This includes 6 scoreless innings in the NLCS. His appearances either served to preserve wins for the Mets or saved the bullpen for another day.
The Mets had NO ONE who could do that in 2007 or 2008. Sele was a nightmare in 2007.
It does matter. I agree you need a long man but to say Omar needed to find a swingman like Oliver and we would not have needed fill in starters is completely false. We still would have and did use the Jose Lima’s of the world.
And that’s where a Brian Bannister had value. Even if he was lousy this year, he was pretty good last year and I believe would have made a difference had he still been a Met in 2007.
And don’t get too hung up on semantics. Swingman could just as well mean long-or-short relief. Oliver had multiple outings where he went 3 innings or more that year.
Bottom line is that he was invaluable in his role in 2006 and the Mets have had no one since who did what he did. Maybe Sosa for awhile, but he was also incendiary.
the mets lineup is pretty much fine they are just missing a good RH bat
the rotation is also among the best in the league. Perez needs to go but a guy like Derek Lowe would be a fantastic replacement. Pedro will be given the oppurtunity to return but if he retires than a successful journeymen player can be signed to hold the fort until Niese is ready
the bullpen needs an overhaul with only Stokes, Parnell and Smith being retained. The mets need an 8th inning and 9th inning guy and both can be easily attained by Free agency
the other pieces of the bullpen will be acquired through trading guys like Heilman, Schoeneweis, Castillo, Feliciano etc. you don’t need a big name just someone who can get the job done.
the mets need some bench players that can step in due to injury. Guys like Cancel, R martinez, should not be considered an option. blue-chippers like eckstein, byrnes, tatis, chavez are great options to come off the bench.
this can all be done without giving up prospects or core players
Oleo, if the mets sign Lowe (which I agree they should do) they lose their first round pick since Lowe is type-A FA. So it wouldn’t not cost “any” prospects.
I still will say that Omar planned all these oldtimer contracts to end right before we move into the new stadium. Lets see what he does this offseason and make our judgement. If we fail to make the postseason and take another step backwards then Omar contract extension or not will be gone for 2010. All the contract does is at least give Omar the confidence not to make any desperation moves.
agreed. I believe too that omar constructed those contracts to finish at this time.
I’ve been a staunch defender of Omar over the years, but it gets to the point where you have to stop trying to get inside his head and instead ask yourself if he’s getting results. Back to back seasons where this team had siginificant leads in the standings and ending up on the outside of the playoff picture looking in, is not results - no matter how you spin it.
I’m sorry, I have to start agreeing with some of the people I’ve most bitterly disagreed with on this blog over the years. What’s Omar’s plan? Are we building from within, or are we doing this post-2000 Yankees style? Do we value pitching or offense? And is the bullpen a key to success or not?
In June I said Willie should be fired to determine whether the ultimate weakness was in the manager’s office or the front office. Given the last month of 2007 and 2008 were literal mirror images of each other, I think there’s an answer. There comes a point where the kids you draft, the veterans you sign and the “diamonds in the rough” you find start producing for you. It’s been 4 years now with Omar and outside the blip that was 2006, this team is what it’s record says it is - a better than average squad that is not good enough to make the playoffs no less win the World Series. I would have less problems with that status if we weren’t spending $140M and hearing our GM espouse about NYC not being a “young team town.” And you can interpret that comment all you want, but the fact that it’s so incoherent that you really can’t say what it truly means, is just downright scary when it’s comeing from the mouth of the guy who holds the phone to all the deals for this team.
” this team is what it’s record says it is ”
-tru..a better team than the one before omar took over it.
I honestly believe we are just a few tweeks away from being a playoff/WS contending team. Just gotta stay away from injury prone players and get younger.
“Better” is totally subjective… did the Wilpons agree to up the payroll by more than $50M to be better or to be elite?
And we were a few “tweaks” away from contending after last year — we brought in the BEST PITCHER on the planet and we still couldn’t make the playoffs.
Bottom line, the Omar system is not producing results. There are just too many of the same miscalculations being made time after time. And I still couldn’t look anyone in the face and tell you what the grand plan of Omar’s is. Are Niese, Parnell, Murphy, and Evans really part of a new core or were we forced to use these guys out of desperation? Do we believe in FMart enough to justify spending money on “stopgaps” in the OF the past two years that spent more time on the DL than on the field? Are we really going to be “athletic” or are we going to keep investing in players with checkered medical histories? I was willing to give Omar the benefit of the doubt headed into last year because of the success of 2006. And headed into 2008, while my enthusiasm was tempered, I wanted to give him the chance to correct his mistakes. We got the same results last year - what indication of talent evaluation or general executive smarts has Omar shown that indicate he’s going to take a different approach? And the fact that the Wilpons are willing to not only keep him, but extend him another 3 years- is a loud and clear endorsement that they are perfectly content with being “better” for $50M more and not elite.
People like to give Omar credit for getting Ollie Perez when the true architect of that deal was Duaner Sanchez (or his cab driver). Plus Omar was ready to flip Perez that day to get Scott Linebrink. The Linebrink deal fell apart and then Omar was stuck with OP. BTW, the Pirates were dumping OP because of salary.
So basically OP is on the Mets though a bunch of circumstances, not because Omar is a genius.
Then there’s John Maine. He’s only on the Mets because fan & media reaction to the Benson for Julio deal was so negative that he had the Orioles throw in another player. Maybe Omar saw something in Maine and specifically asked for him, maybe he didn’t. But Omar was ready to do that deal without Maine.
Then there’s Johan. If the Yankees don’t refuse to include their top prospects, Santana is a Yankee. Once the Yanks were out, so were the Red Sox. Johan fell into Minaya’s lap.
There is no truth in any of that. In fact it has been proven that Omar would not pull the trigger without Maine.
As for Perez? Salary dump? What his 500,000 that he was still owed? At the time of the Perez deal was Linebrink more important to the team?
sure, but you can’t credit omar for stealing perez when he was ready to flip him for a bullpen bust.
he got stuck holding the bag, and in this case the bag had some value.
people are making like ollie is cy young here. he’s not that good. we may have done better with nady all this time.
But at the time Linebrink was not a bullpen bust. We needed bullpen help badly and he was a name out there. We also have no idea why that deal fell through. Maybe Omar wanted more in return.
Oh and by the way I don’t give Omar credit for STEALING anyone. All GM’s make good and bad moves. The Pirates got good production out of Nady and traded him for good value from the Yanks.
Real, it was reported by Olney that media and fan criticism of Omar’s initial Benson-for-Julio deal is what caused Omar to go back to Baltimore and ask for Maine. IOW, the initial deal was simply for Julio. This jives with my recollection of the timeline of that deal including initial fan reaction to getting just Julio.
Now, I discount Olney when it comes to opinion or analysis, but not when it comes to reporting.
Onley does not have a clue and that has been shown over and over. There were other reports just the opposite. Why would you believe Mr. Igetthetradedealinedealswrongeveryyear Onley?
omar hasn’t made one even decent trade since the end of the 2006 season, excepting johan who fell into his lap.
You guys amaze me. You can’t see both sides of an arguement for nothing. You jump all over him for the small bad trades and then give him no credit for the good ones.
It’s the same junk as when you guys were on Willie. If we lost it was because of Willie and if we won it was inspite of him. (Don’t get me wrong I eventually wanted Willie gone as well but with cause)
You can’t have it both ways.
Real, are you my conscious, LOL? Seriously, I have had these same arguments with Dykstraw and Corey here (good friends of mine IRL) and I agree wholeheartedly. If you knock him for the bad moves, you have to give him credit for the good moves. Like the people above complaining about not having Humber, Guerra, Mulvey and Gomez — um, yeah, we got some guy named SANTANA who is ours for the next five years. Sure, Omar wanted Julio, and why did he get rid of him 2 months into the season (without even seeing Maine make a start at that point). honestly, duaner sanchez getting hungry for dominican food aside, the one Omar brain fart that changed the landscape of this team? Letting Jesus Flores go unprotected in the Rule V Draft…you do that and you don’t have Schneider, or Church, we still have Stings (and he would have helped out, I think, this year - where was our OF help when we needed it? OH yea, Murph and Evans — not natural OFers)…seriously, I am ready to watch Omar right this ship. I’m not happy he has 3 more years - but willing to see how this pans out.
ike the people above complaining about not having Humber, Guerra, Mulvey and Gomez
Who’s complaining about those specific prospects? I haven’t read everything in this thread, but since the trade, I have not read one post complaining about trading any of those guys.
C’mon. If you have to exaggerate or fabricate to make a point, your point is weak.
the big moves always have an element of luck and circumstance about them. the small ones really test the the skill of the GM.
john maine is here because anna benson was a liability. perez was here because of a drunk driver. zito didn’t come here because brian sabean is a moron. johan is here because the twins got squeezed.
omar’s best trades are the ones that brought duaner and loduca here. he’s not getting credit for delgado because he blew the negotiations that should have brought him here in the first place.
the guy has been much more lucky than good, and even good luck hasn’t carried this team the past two years. i would show him the door today.
lol dayum FAH3 came out to fight today lol
Hey FAHIII, I actually answered a post that had sort of complained that we had no depth - true, but you trade those guys for Johan any day of the week and twice on sundays. Why not cherry pick more out of my answer? (IDK if your name is defending AH, but I am one of those crazies who thinks he should be starting - yeah, I said it ;-) )
oh no you didnt coop lol
Oh, yes I did Dirty…yes I did. LOL
Hey coop, last winter under my previous username VCarver, I was one of the biggest proponents of the trade that got the Mets Santana. I think it will rank with Beltran as one of Omar’s greatest moves. I would do that deal a million times over, even if it cost them Pelfrey.
But as I pointed out in previous threads, the Red Sox have built a team full of homegrown youngsters that weren’t all first rounders. And the Red Sox have made their fair share of trades of young prospects too. See Hanley Ramirez and Freddy Sanchez for starters.
It takes an organizational commitment to build through youth … plus smarts when it comes to drafting. Epstein has both. He fought with his ownership to get them to commit to youngsters vs. going hog wild with free agents and it cost him his job (but he came back).
That’s what I want to see from Omar.
As for my current username, I just don’t believe Heilman belongs in the pen and he should have been traded sometime in the last two years OR been put in the rotation. Keeping him in the pen has only brought heartache to both him and Mets fans.
I didn’t want to make it seem like I was against the Johan trade - I was 100% for it. And still am. But like you point out, it’s just one deal. There has to be a big commitment to growing a team, as you said, and honestly, one of the big pet peeves I have with Omar is that he *says* that he wants that, but *does* something entirely different (with or w/o the loss of first round picks in signing Pedro, Beltran, Wagner, etc). That p’s me off to no end. I think big picture though and there’s more than meets the eye. For example, Wilflop is doing his best to create a “winning product” - for himself and his family and investors. He is the nouveau Walter O’Malley, who cares if the Dodgers *now Mets* have a championship - we are still profitable!!! Show me the green! Mwah-ha-ha-ha! But I thought Omar had full autonomy, so it’s a two way street I guess (I wrote an article about how profitable the Santana trade would be for the Mets last year, actually)…but I would like to see a committment to growing the team — they just like the flashy names that get them the attendance and benjamins. And that is IT. We are on the same page about Heilman, BTW.
i knew you “sounded” familiar.
As much as I’d like to point fingers, I cannot place all the blame of these two collapses on Omar. He put together a winning team 3 years in a row. They were the favorites going into the season for the past two years, so he did what he had to do. He cannot pitch for the pitchers, and he cannot hit for the batters. Yes you can argue that he didn’t really do anything about the bullpen after the collapse, and yes, that is probably the primary reason for the collapse this year, but I think it’s safe to say that’s not going to happen again.. so why fret it.
Is there any truth to the rumor that Moises Alou, El Duque, Julio Franco, Pedro Martinez, Luis Castillo, and Luis Aguilo will all be sitting in the back of the press conference laughing and throwing money in the air?????
And Mo Vaughn and Bobby Bo will be eating it along with Roberto Alomar?
I see a couple of people have responded to my post. Sorry if I don’t respond by name.
1- Regarding Moises Alou. In two seasons, he played a grand total of 102 games totaling 377 at bats. Sorry but one September cannot cloud a GM’s thinking. Omar could not expect to get a full season or anything close to it. In fact, we got exactly zippo from Alou this year. Sure he was a tease but it was a tease that tied up $8 million dollars. Again, what was Plan B? We got so lucky that a Murphy and Evans handled themselves as well as they did considering neither was projected as an outfielder.
2- To the realsince1986. I am not saying that Darren Oliver was the answer. Howvever, he was capable of stepping in and making an emergency start if needed. He gave them innings (see the game Victor Zambrano blew out his arm a Saturday Afternoon) when needed. I am not suggesting an All Star pitcher here. Just a veteran that was capable of stepping in and keeping us in the game. Look at our bullpen full of “specialists”. Not a single one could really make that start. That is why Niese and Humber got those starts. Both lost. Both losses were costly.
Alou also batted .347
So what? He never was healthy and hardly ever played.
What he is saying is that there were very few options to play LF that even offered what Alou did. We could have survived Endy and Pagan in LF for half a season if Church AND Pagan had not gotten injured too.
Omar has made some good moves especially Maine and not giving up Pelfrey or Martinez for Johan. With that said Omar has been extremely sloppy. He has neglected the bullpen after 06 when the bullpen for a good majority of that season was the strength of the team.
Also Omar has thrown money and years out to some very questionable guys. 4 years to Pedro, 2 years to El Duque and Alou, and 4 years to Castillo. I think the Castillo signing and trading for a psychopath like Burgos are moves that are so incompetent that he deserves to be fired.
Gotta forgive the Pedro deal. Most would have done that deal and he has gotten that money back in ticket and merchandise sells. The real problem is not going out and finding a #5 starter innings eater in 2007.
1) plan b was pagan
Oliver was never used as an emergency starter. Besides we had emergency starters this year that many teams would have loved to have. Their names were Pelfrey, Vargas and Armas. Pelfrey has been a rock since and Vargas and Armas both got injured.
cnbc’s mark haines is a mets fan, i knew i liked that guy
we can debate all we want. Bottom line is he’s here for at least 2 more seasons, and if he doesn’t improve the team, u can bet he’ll be fired before the other 2.
Bottom line part 2–he’s got the contract, now he’s gotta earn it. He has a MUCH harder job this year than last i think.
LF is a black hole
2B is a black hole
the pen is WORSE than a black hole
we’re down one starter, maybe 2 if we dont think niese can be our 5
we need another bopper in the lineup
pick up or drop delgado, if drop, who plays first?
ALL while trying to dump off Show, Heilman, Castillo, and maybe even schneider, feliciano, and maybe even delgado. AND all the while knowing you’re gonna lose a ton of draft picks if u try to fix it all thru free agency, which we just might have to since we traded 4 guys for one in the Johan deal (NOT complaining though).
Gonna be a DAUNTING task, but i do like the idea of letting go of delgado and putting murphy/tatis there, while signing Orlando Hudson and Bobby Abreu or even Pat Burrell for 3 years. YES their D is horrible but we NEED a good bat in this lineup. Adding murph, o-dawg, and either abreu/burrell sets our lineup.
Then which starter to u go after? Lowe? Garland? Penny? Ollie?
ANd i’m not even gonna TOUCH the bullpen…i mean, outside of fuentes, K-rod, and bob howry for middle relief, what do u do? I can see omar trying to trade for a young stud set up guy to convert to a closer, or a young closer like putz or soria that is arb eligible…it’s rough…
NO ABREU please lol
i mean your right..he has alot of things to do this offseason and not that many pieces to do it with.
Trade bait
-heilman
-show
-castillo
-ive come around on this but perhaps delgado
his areas to address according to importance
-SP
-Bullpen
-2b
-LF
needless to say its going to be a busy offseason and omar already said he will try to fill them via trade mostly and relying on FA less.
“The Mets need to get younger, and resemble the tough, hard-working, exciting team that the majority of the team’s fans most enjoy watching. This is not just the business of baseball, it’s also entertainment.”
Do you really want to watch Vance Wilson and Jason Phillips again? Did you enjoy 2003 and 2004? I didn’t.
No, but I think fans want to watch more of the Papelbon, Lester, and Youkilis types on their team. None of those players were first-rounders.
Oh! And the slow refund is a product of visa/mastercard/amex/etc, not the mets.
Matt,
“The Mets need to get younger, and resemble the tough, hard-working, exciting team that the majority of the team’s fans most enjoy watching. This is not just the business of baseball, it’s also entertainment.”
You have repeated this sentiment about catering to the fans — which is precisely what the Mets should NOT do. The best run organization in baseball over the past five years is the Boston Red Sox. During that period they have won two World Series titles while building and developing one of the brightest farm systems in all of baseball. All of this was done by making smart baseball moves, and many of those smart moves were extremely unpopular among their fan base.
For example: During the 2004 season they traded Nomar Garciaparra, arguably the most popular Red Sox of his time, then went on to win the World Series that year. At the end of the season, after winning their first World Series, a very popular Pedro Martinez was not re-signed. After the 2005 season, Johnny Damon, another fan favorite, was not re-signed. This season they traded Manny Ramirez… that’s just to name a few..
The point is that catering to what the fans think they want (a “tough, hard-working team” as you put it) may just create more losing. What the Mets need to do is have the guts to make difficult decisions REGARDLESS of what the fan base thinks of the move.
very good point….thats why no one on this team should be labeled “untouchable”
That said, trading Wright/Reyes/Beltran (current “untouchables”) would be wrath inducing — unless we got back a small fortune of prospects. Is that what people want?
No one is saying trade them…just listen..just listen to what possible offers come to us…if nothing makes are team that much better then dont make a move
im pretty sure omar will be listening to everything.
I’m not sure what people want and my point was that it shouldn’t matter what they want.
That being said, trading Wright, Reyes or Beltran would be foolish beyond belief.
so it would be foolish if a team offered Pujols for Wright? obviously thats not realistic…but you get my point
Of course not, but I think that we’re talking in realistic terms here.
The Mets won’t get enough value back for any of those three guys — especially Wright and Reyes because of their extremely affordable contracts.
Of course it would be foolish Airfeet, for the Cardinals. That’s the problem with trading superstars in their prime, you can’t get top value for a contending team.
those are very good poitns, i’ll agree, but all of those guys are much older than reyes and wright. Reyes and wright will CONTINUE to get better and play on an all star level CONSISTENLY for the next 5 years. Trading reyes or wright is a laughable thought. LAUGHABLE. People want home grown talent, we finally develop 2 IMMENSELY talented, fan favorites and people are saying LISTEN to offers? THat’s insane. There are no holes in either of their games. Wright’s “lack of clutch hits” only developed THIS year. He’s been pretty clutch the prior 2 seasons. And i see nothing wrong in reyes’s game, maybe a lil overzealous at tmes.
These 2 guys are STUDS and the cornerstone of our team. Listening to offers? Fine, be courteous and LISTEN. BUt even ENTERTAINING a thought to POSSIBLY trade them is pure lunacy.
Bottom line, we need a CONSISTENT power bat to protect guys in this lineup and make our entire offense consistent. WE need to ADD to reyes and wright, not trade them. Maybe Manny is the answer, maybe not. He certainly comes with baggage, and is 37…but by God, i’ll repeat myself. ADD and BUILD around reyes, wright, and even beltran and church. Sign a power LF, shift murph to first and sign Orlando Hudson. Get that cast around our young homegrowns studs going….THAT will make us a player in October (well as long as we get our pen straightened out too).
I agree 100%.
My point was that the front office cannot listen to a ridiculous, apocalyptic fan base.
4 more years for Minaya to give 4 more years to the likes of Castillo, Pedro and Wagner. This organization sure loves 4 year contracts.
Do you realize that Minaya is under contract longer than Wright, Reyes and Beltran?
Minaya is mediocre at best. In NY that is unacceptable.
Wilpon and his idiot son can’t tell that we want a change? Are they that dense? Apparently they are.
Omar is clueless.