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In the New York Post, Joel Sherman explains how Omar Minaya must look to improve the depth of his team’s roster, writing:
“Minaya too often has neglected the whole roster. So that when, for example, a pricey commodity such as Billy Wagner was hurt, the Mets were forced to bottom feed at a dire time…I have heard that issue was a significant theme at the initial offseason meetings among the top brass.”
Sherman continues on to wonder if the Mets should consider trading a player like Jose Reyes, for the good of the future and the overall roster, asking, “Would the Angels take Reyes for Joe Saunders (a high-level 
starter), Jose Arredondo (a long-term closer candidate) and Erick Aybar (a shortstop replacement)?”
…i don’t know about that, but, i agree that more attention must be paid to the entire 25–man roster…as SNY’s Ted Berg likes to say, it’s okay if you have one guy, like Endy Chavez, who is all-defensive, no-hit, but you can’t have four or five of them, like the Mets did this season at times…
why would the angels trade an ace, a future closer and a decent ss for jose reyes?
That’s what I was wondering.
I don’t think he actually was serious as much as throwing an example of his thoughts there.
If they trade Reyes, I’m boycotting the Mets.
yea let’s trade Reyes after all shortstops of his caliber grow on trees, while we’re at it maybe we can get back
Mike Phillips,Frank Tavares, or jose oquendo, wait ! i
know we can bring back the total package the immortal Teddy Martinez..
i agree. if reyes or wright go, so do i.
Wow, they don’t make Mets fans the way they used to….most Mets fans stuck with this franchise after they traded THE franchise, Seaver.
Saunders is not an ace….
You make that trade, you’re getting three serviceable parts for one superstar. It’s like exchanging a Mustang for a set of tires and a carburertor.
that’s nonsense. reyes and wright are so young. they haven’t even hit their peak yet. they have 8 years of mvp ball ahead of them. trade that for mediocrity? nonsense…
My sentiments exactly on Saunders, but I think that’s besides the point. If the Mets ever thought to trade Reyes, a fantastic player at the age of 25…a guy who is already near the top at his position as he enters his prime years, to help out their ambiguous “future,” that would be totally backwards thinking and completely inexcusable. Let’s revisit this when Reyes turns 30 and it’ll actually make sense to discuss dumping a guy to worry about the future of an organization.
An ace? More like a mediocre pitcher who had a very fluky year. Aybar isn’t close to Reyes, and Arredondo doesn’t make up the difference.
I’m glad that there are other Met fans out there who haven’t drunk the kool-aid and gone crazy! Maybe not living in NY anymore helps me have an national perspective, but too many are wanting to completely re-haul this team that, yes disappointed us again, but all-in-all was a very good team with a bad bullpen.
When was the last time the Mets had a SS as good as Reyes?? How about never! Do you guys really want to go back to the Ordonez, Bordick, Vizcaino, Elster, Santana, etc days? You simply DO NOT trade a keystone player like that who is a perennial all-star. Same with Wright. THEY ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.
Those of you supporting this trade would be the same people criticizing Omar if he actually was stupid enough to do it, once Aybar is hitting sub-.250 and Saunders gets shelled for the first time, etc.
The team just needs to rebuild the bullpen, and imho reanalyze how it is used (Manuel’s staff didn’t do a great job at using them correctly). The bullpen IS the reason we aren’t watching the Mets right now.
Lest we forget that with those shortstops, we won one world series title, and played in another.
Shermans article is ludicrous.
What team could weather a loss of their All Star closer and who was available to replace him?
Also, what teams have the kind of depth through their 40 man roster to replace multiple starting outfielders. I mean when Alou went down we plugged in Pagan, When pagan went down we used Tatis, When Tatis went down we went to the farm.
The basic point of Sherman’s article is correct (although the example trade he offered was preposterous). The Mets have neglected depth in their organization. They are extremely top heavy in talent, mostly because they might in terms of collective production and accounting for age, they might have the best group of 4 players in baseball. That’ll make anyone top-heavy.
You can live with one mediocrity like Schneider, but not two like Scheider and Castillo–and most definitely not three, like Schneider, Castillo, and Church after his injury. And they got very, very lucky with Murphy. Easley, Argenis Reyes, Luis Ayala, Ricardo Rincon, and Marlon Anderson do not belong in the major leagues. Not only did we have all three on the roster, but with the exception of Marlon Anderson, they actually were our best options.
After Murphy moves to 2nd, they will not have a left fielder–and they need one, because while a championship caliber team can live with Church as their 3rd best offensive outfielder, it is tough to contend with Church as your 2nd best. And Beltran is getting older.
If you want depth, Beltran and Delgado are the guys to trade. I’d hate to see either go, but they are not our home-grown guys (Delgado explicitly refused to sign with us in ‘05) and thus I would not call them crucial to the identity of the franchise. Only Reyes and Wright fit that role and are thus untouchable. (Pelfrey and Maine are close–and I love them–but they are not good enough to justify being untouchable.) The only problem with trading Beltran–besides the fact that I love the guy–is that he seems to be underrated throughout the league. You’d better get a King’s Ransom for Beltran–MUCH more than the lolTwins got for Santana.
The Angels wou;dn’t hesitate. Saunders prjects to have a 3.70 ERA on an average year, good, but not great. Arredondo is a future closer, but a 1 inning man nonetheless. Aybar is terrible.
Jose Reyes is one of the best hitters in the game (if SB is included), a great fielder, and plays a position where it’s hard to find real production.
If that was the cost for Reyes, the Angels would pounce on it.
Minaya must do the honorable thing and step down… and just go away
Oh-I’m sure that’s going to happen.Honor-Ha
yes I can sign a 3 years 5 Million dollar deal then step down for the good of the team
Anybody home up there
I am no fan of trading Reyes but the point is who you are trading him or Wright for.
Example…if you said you were trading Reyes for Evan Longoria and Scott Kazmir from the Rays…you’d do it right?
If it was Wright or Reyes straight up for Hanley Ramirez…you would certainl consider it right?
Or Wright for Cabrera from the Tigers and Verlander.. You’d do it.
Trades of our established young stars are possible given the right scenario.
But the players I mentioned are not likley to be offered to us. Fatcessa was making the point of breaking up the core. What he was talking about…IMO…was trading away a Reyes for a Han Ram not for a package of new untested but high potential guys like our FMART.
Trading Reyes or Wright would be insanity. By the time these guys are done, they will have rewritten the Mets’ records book, and won several championships, if we can surroung them with the right cast. It’s a work in progress, and the progress has been tremendous. One more step – - fix the bullpen, add a started and get a better supporting cast (second base and the corner outfield) and let’s move to Citifield minus the ghosts!
Also, people seem to forget – it’s not all about winning. It’s about rooting for your guys.
Would you guys approve of a complete roster trade with the Angels and give us a good shot to win the WS next year? Would you just as eagerly support the Angels in Mets unis as these Mets themselves. Maybe some of you would. But what’s the point then – it’s just the label on the uniform and nothing else.
If you don’t have homegrown stars to lead your team, homegrown talent you can identify the club with, then you have nothing.
So don’t trade Reyes or Wright.
agree, wright and reyes are untouchable because they are homegrown stars
PLEASEEEEEEE!!!!! Here we go again. The only untouchable met right now is Johan.
Can we stop with the no one is untouchable because somehow a fantasy baseball trade is going to descend on the Mets.
Can you name the last time a team dealt another anything more than equal value for a star player?
Players move in the modern era in three ways:
Free Agency
Salary dumps
Stars for multiple prospects
David Wright is not going to be dealt for Albert Pujols and the Mets are not going to get some fantasy land package of Roy Halladay and Alex Rios for Jose Reyes.
What about the Bartolo Colon trade that Omar was on the wrong side of? You trade a superstar at the time for 3 high level prospects.
Obviously this isn’t a scenario I’m all that interested in, as the Mets are in a very different situation today than the Indians were back then.
Right so? He dealt a AAA prospect and two entirely unknown low a ball guys from the system of a team MLB OWNED and was openly discussing folding.
I do not see why people feel that has some impact on his Mets resume.
Either way that trade is not dealing your existing stars for parts.
There you go, well said.
Trading either one of them is the equivalent of the Yankees trading Jeter. Unimaginable and the fall out would be great. Basically the entire fan base is linked to those two.
I don’t think they’re untouchable because they’re homegrown. They’re untouchable because they’re fantastic players who’re only gonna get better. And because there is no way on earth you would get equal value for them. And because the absence of either of them would open up enormous holes on a team that has too many of them to begin with.
I can’t understand why any Mets fan would seriously consider getting rid of either of them. People are just letting that bloated man-ball Francesa whip them into a frenzy about this.
Amen.
They’re “untouchable” because 70% of the people on this board don’t want to have to drop $300 on a different MLB Authentic jersey.
Seriously, patrick is right. The reason they won’t be traded is that it’s hard to find the right fit when you’re not rebuilding, i.e., trading a veteran for a bunch o’ prospects. You’re talking young star for young star, and deals of that magnitude just don’t happen.
One big Starter – CC
One big reliever – KROD
One big bat – MANNY/HUDSON/etc..
if that is done then we would be good…maybe a few more relievers but that would be very cheap
Cheap like Scho or a guy like Bradford? And is Hudson really a “big” bat.
ur right…hes not really a big bat but hudson would give the mets the big hit when they need one
Hudson would give you the big hit more often than Castillo
I was going to say the samething. It’s an insult to Manny to have his name listed next to Hudson’s.
The Wright – Reyes trade talk has got to stop.
It is ludicrous. If I’m using the word ludicrous you know something is up.
“Ludiscrous Speed GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Please stop everyone, we know were not trading them I;d rather hear everybpdy’s creative ideas on how we will work the free agent market and possible trades.
thank you!
CC
I would not expect CC.
Between acquiring Johan next year and CC’s mention of his comfort zone on the West coast, its not happening. Foret it, if there ever was a bidding war it would be to drive up another clubs payroll.
K-Rod
Listen, who wouldn’t take K-Rod on their team. But with his mechanics, size and the contract he’ll be demanding, that spells bust. Yes we need him desperatley so beggars can’t be choosers.
One question what is his fastball topping out at? I have not seen enough of him.
CC was throwing 96 to 97 yesterday
K-rod velocity, not CC’s.
ANyone know what velocity K-Rod consistently throws his fastball at?
Used to be 96-97, but this year he was in the 92-93 range. He is still successful at that velocity because his fastball has very good movement (think John Maine’s fastball), and he also throws a very good slider/slurve to complement it.
Francisco Rodriguez’ FBv
2005: 93.3
2006: 94.8
2007: 93.6
2008: 91.9
career: 93.4
Also interesting is how he’s throwing way more changeups than he used to.
2008: 16.8%
career: 7.2%
Thanks guys, impressive.
My point is we sign this guy 3-4-5 years, and he is on the cusp of throwing 89. I’m not feelin it.
Lets do our homewrok and hopefully find the next K-Rod. I know we need someone immediatley, I’m just saying.
Krod’s decline in speed and increase in change ups is on purpose. Research the internet. He said he changed his delievery and learned how to pitch. He learned that he does not have to throw it by everyone and sometimes it’s ok to pitch to contact.
I intend to suggest that Rodriguez’ drop in velocity was unintentional or even a bad thing.
Johan Santana has lost almost 2mph since 2006 while still being able to dial it up to 94-96mph occasionally and is pitching better than he did in the past few years. Johan is throwing more strikes for fewer strikeouts but for a better K/BB ratio. Getting smart is a good thing.
I mean “didn’t intend.”
*Johan last year*
It’s just crazy to suggest trading Wright or Reyes, especially Reyes, because why would you create a hole to fill a hole?
Talent at SS like Reyes doesn’t come around all that often. The only reason Wright would make more sense (and by more, I mean not any sense at all) is you could maybe put Murphy in their. But still, the skills that those two possess mean you go into virtually every series as good or better at 3B and SS than the team you are playing.
Here’s an idea… let’s stop picking the Ike Freakin’ Davises of the world with our draft picks and go after higher end talent. Then, god forbid, we could actually, you know, develop some of the talent we need.
My only concern w/ Reyes is I look at him and find my self constantly saying…..
This may be the stupidest baseball player alive……
For all his flashes of greatness, it just seems like he goes brain dead at times. Stealing 3rd with 2 out, getting picked off, swinging wildly w/ his head up in the air when just getting on base will do…….it seems like sometimes he forgets what his role is.
25 well timed stolen bases are 100% better than 80 when it doesn’t matter…… I think this year he did a good job to pick his spots better, but in his record setting season he stole just for the sake of stealing and just bombed down the stretch.
He isn’t even close to the stupidest player. For one, swinging at bad pitches isn’t entirely a function of brain power. For two, his mistakes lessen with each year.
If you look at how far he’s come since he was a rookie, you ought to really come to the conclusion that he’s an intelligent player who works hard and continues to learn.
Just watch him on the basepaths. See how many times he stops at second with 0 or 2 outs rather than push it for a triple.
I think you’re thinking of a younger Reyes. He keeps getting better.
I’m actually, though not sure why, exactly, offended by your suggestion that he’s stupid.
Double your offense. He’s not a smart player. I have no idea what his “Wunderlic” would be, so don’t get your skivvies in a wad. He’s just prone to boneheaded mental lapses.
what does wunderlic mean? Maybe he’s not Keith Hernandez, or Pedro smart out there, but he’s not a dumb ball player. He has cut way down on his “boneheaded” plays, which might be attributed to youthful exuberance.
It’s actually “Wonderlic,” but it’s the test given to football players prior to the NFL draft to test their “intelligence.” I was saying that I’m not calling Reyes “stupid,” as in can’t do long division stupid; rather, I’m saying that the mental lapses are the hallmark of a player who lacks “baseball intelligence” — sort of like Rex Grossman in his field.
But I don’t think he’s baseball stupid either. He’s definitely getting better at limiting his mistakes.
I don’t know if I buy the argument or not about creating a hole to fill a hole. Hubie Brooks for Gary Carter seemed to work out really well for the Mets. I know it’s just one example, but if it’s trading one big hole for a smaller hole? I don’t know.
I agree, the trading Wright/Reyes talk is getting out of hand, and is a bit ludicrous……..
However, what is also ludicrous is automatically dismissing the concept…….As a GM, you listen to anything and everything. If something helps your team plug multiple holes for the cost of one player….then you think about it. Not saying you do it…..you think about it.
And the spaceballs Ludicrous speed comment is simply amazing, thank you, 7-train.
Spaceballs rules,
I hear ya, you listen to everything any GM will present you and it does not mean that Omar will do it.
What bothers me is to hear my fellow Mets fans discuss the possibility of trading these two. These are family to me at this point. Homegrown Mets. We all know the horrible track record our organization has with retaining our boys.
Theres pople nit picking there numbers, they are AWESOME.
People need the MLB package, every superstar makes a bone head play once in a while. For example look at Vlad the other night.
Listen Guys while this season was winding down and everybody knew that bullpen was the ultimate culprit.
I knew that when this team does not make the playoffs. people will question our hitting and Wright, Reyes and all the other hitters will be questioned and thats their job.
BUT, they did there job all these hitters sent over 30 games to 7th, 8th, and 9th with a lead and we lost.
This division was not lost in the last six games. It was lost during various games from game 13 to game 29, 52, 115 (those are random examples) but you know what I’m saying.
There is only so many hits in hitters bat. There numbers are solid, Wright Reyes, Beltran, Delgado. They did everything they could.
Our bullpen lacked talent.
Watching every day is another valid point…..
I often think….man, how come other teams don’t get shut down by the journey men of the league……….
But then I wonder if I watched another team almost every day……..I’m sure I’d see VERY upsetting losses, and hitters fail in big situations……and pitchers lose composure all the time….
These reporters are just hilarious with their trade “proposals”. Saunders was a nobody before this season and could very well be a one-year wonder and Aybar is a mediocre stopgap at best. Arredondo is good, but the Angels will likely hold on to him considering K-Rod’s impending departure.
Regarding Sherman, I mean honestly, a pricey commodity like Billy Wagner…
exactly how many teams have a guaranteed fallback closer?
The problem was less the lack of plan b for Wagner as much as it was nobody else in the bullpen could get on a roll.
I mean when the bullpen was at its hottest late August thru early September the go to guys were Brian Stokes and Luis Ayala.
Ayala while in a Met uniform small sample or not had the same save pct Wagner had.
Jose Reyes, 25 year old potential Hall of Fame SS
Joe Saunders, servicable back end of the rotation guy
Jose Arredondo, middle reliever
Erick Aybar, Utility man
Yeah, that sounds like a great deal Mr. Sherman.
Must be a slow news day if these types of ridiculous deals are being printed.
We need a good bench just like the one in the pic…lol.
nice touch Matt.
what hapened to my post???
i’ll take reyes. period.
and saunders is far. far! from an ace.
honestly this is the most redic. idea ever. you do not trade away superstars. we are not the fn pirates. its not totally their fault that omar has failed to put a team around them.
we need a team of youth and heart, not just playing for contracts. as a fan, i like watching our stars battle in the box. example is murphy. i think he could be in the core group with reyes, wright, pelfrey, maine.
we have money, so to trade either of them you have to be out of your mind.
if i was to trade somone, i would try and package a deal around ryan church. his stock is high right now, young, and cheap $$$.
I’m pretty sure that most major league teams would love to have Reyes. Trading him would be just dumb.
No trading Reyes.
No trading Wright.
I wish the media would stop with that nonsense.
I think this year, the team needs to do it through free agency, since you can pick up top players, under 30, that fill needs.
Here is what I would do:
1. Sabathia, K-Rod, and Derek Lowe (I know, it sounds like a pipe dream, but read on)
2. Sign David Weathers and Darren Oliver to one year deals
3. Try to move the contract of Luis Castillo, if possible. Even if you have to cover 15 of the 18 million left, some players must go. If they can do it for Eric Byrnes, great, although I don’t think that trade is a reality.
I know it seems on the surface the Mets would be throwing a ton of money at the team, and in all likelihood they would be competing with many other teams for these players’ services. However, when you look deeper at the projected lineup.
1b Carlos Delgado ($12 million)
2b Daniel Murphy ($0.5 million)
ss Jose Reyes ($10 million)
3b David Wright ($10 million)
lf Eric Byrnes ($11 million)
cf Carlos Beltran ($18 million)
rf Ryan Church ($6 million)
C Brian Schneider ($5 million)
C Ramon Castro ($3 million)
2b Damion Easley ($1 million)
OF Fernando Tatis ($1 million)
OF Endy Chavez ($2 million)
IF Nick Evans ($0.5 million)
p1 Johan Santana ($17 million)
p2 CC Sabathia ($17 million)
p3 Mike Pelfrey ($3 million)
p4 John Maine ($3 million)
p5 Derek Lowe ($12 million)
long relief Aaron Heilman ($2 million)
LOOGY Darren Oliver ($2 million)
ROOGY Duaner Sanchez ($1 million)
LOOGY Scott Schoenweis ($3 million)
7th Joe Smith ($0.5 million)
8th David Weathers ($3 million)
9th Francisco Rodriguez ($15 million)
Now, I know this looks like way too much money to be spending, and a lot hinges on Murphy being able to play 2b, however the MLB payroll would be $156.5 million, which is under the luxury tax threshold of 2009. And it wouldn’t be too much higher than the current payroll. Plus, capable backups would be in place in the majors. And in the minors, you would have:
rp Eddie Kunz
rp Bobby Parnell
sp Brad Holt
sp Jon Niese
sp Brian Stokes
of Fernando Martinez
of Ike Davis
if Wilmer Flores
if Reese Havens
if Argenis Reyes
c Robinson Cancel
As far as the free agents go, you would lose your picks in the first three rounds for signing CC, K-Rod, and Lowe, however you would receive a first round pick and a sandwich pick for Ollie, so you are only really losing your third round draft pick. You could even skip out on Lowe and look for a bigger bat than Byrnes for left field, but that would deplete the minor league pitching depth.
And there is the slim possibility that Billy Wagner could be ready come September.
1st off, there is no way you bring back the same exact shtty bench players.
it is true this team needs a shakeup and i think it needs gamers like the only met aka, santana.
byrnes is a good idea, but he is coming off injury and if he would be a 4th of in arz, why should he get a starters role?
as i have said in previous comments, i think this team is way to lefty friendly, the mets need to go out and get a big right handed bat such as a matt holliday…please g-d!!!
you can get your pitching from fa, while shaking things up with an amazing right handed hitter.
your numbers are off and all over the place. How do you suppose we get cc for 17? Reyes and Wright don’t make 10.
You really think the Mets are going to get CC, Krod, Lowe, Weathers, Oliver and Byrnes?
First off the Mets would NEVER get 3 type A FA. 2nd you just signed or traded for 70+ million dollars.
WOW, what has happen to common sense?
Let’s see…
In 2005 the Mets added Beltran, Pedro, and had a $15 million dollar/yr offer to Delgado on the table, so they have at least come very close to three Type A players before.
I guess my point was more along the lines of do it with free agency this year, so you don’t lose those prospects. Maybe I got a bit carried away. I think the biggest points are:
1. Make sure you have 5 big league starters (at least 3 of which can go deep into games on a regular basis). That way Niese is available for any injury.
2. Make sure you get an elite closer, and at least reshape the bullpen with two to three players
3. The lineup was and still is solid, and I think that bench would be very good. Remember, Easley and Tatis and to some extent Evans were actually starters most of the year. This year’s “bench” was really Cancel, Chavez, Reyes, Evans, Marlon Anderson. That is a huge difference in benches.
Much more sensible.
I would imagine
Lowe, Garland, and Krod would be much more accomplishable. Still not likely but would serve a lot of your points.
As for the pen, those guys won’t break the bank either way so go for it.
Sherman is really making himself look small, petty, sensationalistic and clueless these days. Why WOULDN’T the Angels jump on that deal to get Reyes? That is a FLEECE for them.
As for the bench… need I remind him that by the end of the year we had backups playing for injured backups who were playing for injured starters. What are you going to do, have a plus quality guy at every position? I know “injuries aren’t an excuse” (although they’re a pretty good reason), but even though the number one starter and the four stars in the lineup weren’t hurt this year, it seemed like the supporting cast around the Mets were dropping like flies. Yeah, some of the guys were “injury prone”, and it seemed all the “injury prone” guys got hurt, but what about the freak injuries to Church and Tatis? What about Wagner and Easley, two injuries you didn’t see coming? Has anyone ever run into the stands to catch a foul pop-up and not come back for five months like Angel Pagan? I know none of these guys are “stars”, but these are the role players that you need to surround your stars with, and down they go. What do you do?
THANK YOU!!! Finally some one says it. For the Mets to be able to back up Alou, with Pagan, Pagan with Tatis, and then Tatis with Murphy is pretty impressive in my book. And that’s not even including Evans & Endy. The problem was they had to backup Church’s freak injury as well. That is the exact definition of depth in my book.
And how quick we forget our need for a gritty, gutty, won-it-before guy that Omar failed to get. You know, like Trot Nixon?
And then Castillo gets hurt/stinks (that four year albatross is the biggest blemish on Omar’s resume), and THEN Easley goes down. And you lose Matt Wise, and then Billy Wagner, and Aaron Heilman loses all semblance of major league ability. What do you do?
This was a team that midway through the season was playing Trot Nixon in the outfield on an everyday basis until he got hurt.
I think I might of declared the season over at this point.
random thoughts:
Yeah, the bench got weak, but that will happen when you end up starting 2-3 bench guys 1/2 way through the season (Tatis, Easley, even Murphy).
Still, Omar needs to improve that area too. A guy like Werth as a 4th OF makes a huge difference.
And, most teams don’t have a spare closer in waiting. Look at th ephils. If Lidge had gone down when Billy did, they would have been using total scrubs. Maybe Madson? Who knows, but not pretty.
As to Sherman, that particular deal might be weak, but the ligic makes some sense. If you can fleece a team (get them to pay a steep price) for Reyes, you have to think about it.
The idea is to take a valuable commodity and turn it into multiple ones that fill holes. Say you got a young (or even vet) SS to fill that spot, but were able to add a legit set up guy, and a real bat for LF or 2B. Good players, not stiffs. Oveall, it could make the team better.
I am not advocating it, or think it wil lhappen, but if done correctly, it can make the team better.
My argument that, if the Mets start shopping Wright or Reyes now, it will be rightfully viewed by other teams as a panic move, and nobody will offer anywhere near equal value. So why keep harping on it?
They are not going to offer full value anyway. The only way you could get equal value for Reyes is MAYBE in a 3 way trade. Teams that have superstars and are in contention are not going to trade them for Reyes. Teams that are in rebuilding mode are not going to trade prospects for Reyes.Maybe if the Jays wanted to give up you could work a 3 way trade for Reyes and Halladay. Mets send Reyes to uh…. Angels for prospects who are sent to the Jays for Halladay?
You would never see a Reyes for Halladay trade straight up. It makes no sense for either team.
The Angel Pagan reference is right on.The mets had Back Ups playing for backups.Difficult but Moises Alou should have never been counted on.
But anyway you put it-5 less blown saves and we would have been in the post season.We wouldn’t have gone far..
The Bottom line is it’s a team and 25 guys need to be involved.
Endy Chavez is an amazing fielder who can’t hit-he should be in every 8-9th inning in a close game with an occasional start
There is much work to do but getting rid of either Reyeys,Beltran or Wright isn’t one of them
Maybe that’s true, but last year you couldn’t FIND the NY columnist who thought picking up Alou’s option was a bad idea. Now they’re killing the Mets for not being deep enough. I mean, the hypocrisy of these guys is overwhelming sometimes. I can admit when I’m wrong. Why can’t they?
5? How about 2 fewer blown saves and we’re in it!
To answer Joel Sherman’s question – NO. You do not trade one of the cornerstones of the franchise for a #3 starter, a setup guy and a shortstop who is a clear offensive downgrade. You do not weaken your strengths in order to strengthen your weaknesses. That’s silly. You take your core and you build around them. As much as I hate the idea of giving $15M/yr to any closer not named Mariano Rivera, in this case it would be worth it to back up the Brinks truck for K-Rod. Forget about CC, forget about Tex. Bullpen, Bullpen, Bullpen.
I couldn’t agree more, but someone’s got to close out the game. Yes, 30 saves were blown. By 11 of them were blown in the 9th inning. So it says something. Someone has to shut the door. K-Rod may not be the answer because he’s too expensive. Kerry Wood’s too injury prone and will probably remain in Chicago. The most probable solution could be Brian Fuentes. If this is the case, that’s just fine. We need someone though. And Houston Street, J.J Putz and George Sherrill are not ”good closers” to me.
If those guys are not good closers then neither is Fuentes. The guy got demoted to middle relief 2 times in the last 2 years. We could have had him this offseason for Heilman and Show. That’s how low he was by the end of last year.
A closer is apart of the bullpen too though. If we got a bullpen like Fuentes, Juan Cruz and Dennys Reyes, we’re in good shape. We can complement the rest with Smith, Stokes, Feliciano and Kunz or Ayala.
Yes, let’s trade the two best position players the franchise has ever produced.
After Wagner went down, the Met bullpen blew seven games in which they were handed a 2+ run lead sometime from the seventh inning on. Two might be the norm. Seven is off the charts.
Wagner definitely was going down with or without the injury. He was getting old. We signed him too many years. He was old when we signed him. K-Rod and Fuentes are not old. Fuentes is 33, but he’d get one less year. If one of these two or Kerry Wood are not our closer, there’s probably no reason to believe next season.
This team needs to move away from signing old players past their prime to plays in their prime. This is what K-Rod is.
Fuentes is not good. Where do you guys get this from. He was demoted to setup for a rookie then given the job back when that guy stunk it up and then had it taken again. We could have had him for almost nothing at the end of last season.
Paying attention to the entire 25-man roster?
Du-uhh!
Francisco Rodriguez’s velocity is down this year because he twisted his ankle last season. He’s had to ease the stress on his landing foot by making modifications to his delivery. He is trying to cut down on his leg swing and drive more toward the plate in an effort to streamline his delivery. It’s been a problem he’s been dealing with all year, and he is even considering a switch to high-top spikes to possibly benefit him.
That is according to the Los Angeles Times.
What if that’s not it?
What if Delgado was a righty? Then we’d be looking for lefty power. Come on. He was trying to give us information. You can’t be worried about injury every time you sign a player? Since when is 26 yrs old ancient for a relief pitcher? He throws 70-something innings per year probably. If his arm can’t handle that, I don’t know what to tell you.
What if his left testicle is lower? What do you mean? You can see a noticable change in his delievery since last season. Also he has mentioned that he has learned to use his change up and mix of speeds more. He in addition mentioned that he now knows it is ok to pitch to contact sometimes.
Sounds like a kid maturing early.
I mean if a 26 year old loses velocity, I’d be very very careful about doling about 75 million dollars to him. Even if he says it’s because of an ankle injury, it just might not be.
Sometimes young pitchers lose it (see Willis, Dontrelle, or Zito, Barry) and the guy with the checkbook ought to be pretty darn certain that it is the ankle and not anything else causing the velo drop.
Velocity drop is a major warning sign. If he has developed other stuff that’s great, but if the velo drop is actually the beginning of a trend, then that change-up won’t be effective in a few years.
Also “pitching to contact” is often a euphemism for: “gee, I can’t explain why my stuff isn’t as good any more.”
I’m not saying that it’s not the ankle, I’m saying it better be just the ankle if the Mets do indeed ink him to a long term deal.
To answer your other questions: if Delgado were a righty then we wouldn’t be looking righty power.
If his left testicle were lower then he might be in danger of dangling it in cold water when he was squatting on the bowl — but I don’t have any idea currently how low his testicles are, so that’s pure speculation on my part.
Thanks for the comedy. Really.
As for Krod, I have posted it 100 times. If you research you will find that Krod has said that he has adjusted his delievery and let off his fastball some. For two reasons. Stress and he is learning to pitch. He has found he can use his changeup more and does not have to blow every batter away. He has also found that sometimes it’s just better to pitch to contact. Also if you watched any games you would also know that he can still dial it up but it’s usually up in the zone where he does not want to be.
That’s all good. I just urge due diligence before inking the guy. That’s all I meant.
I agree, but one would as sume they would require a physical before inking the deal. Of course with our medical staff that could be a problem.
True that! Maybe he’s been pitching with an undetected concussion!
Even through all this, he’s still an amazing closer who’s had a great season. Hypothetically, even if K-Rod fell back a little? Wouldn’t he still be better than Fuentes? I’d still be open to the idea of getting Fuentes. They have to sign one of these two closer’s though. We can’t give up Niese, F-Mart or who ever for a questionable closer like Street, Sherrill or Putz.
Fuentes is not good. You would be better off signing Everyday Eddie and Juan Cruz and go with 2 closers.
I would trade Wilmer Flores or Neise, whomever Tampa Bay would want from the two, plus a guy like Heilman or Church for Grant Balfour…THAT GUY would be the answer at the end of the ‘pen. Tough as nails and has lights out stuff. I think Tampa would listen being that their pen is very good already and he could, ever slightly, become available.
Actually on second thought – after seeing the Balfour will be 31 next year, I rethink that trade. I would still LOVE to have him, but not at that price…which makes him all the more attractive. The guy has closer stuff with a closers mentality. Maybe it wouldn’t too hard to pry him away from TB.
By trading DELGADO, Castillo, Heilman, etc, you can fill holes. Then you go get K-Rod and O-Dawg, put Murph at 1B, trade Delgado for pitching, castillo for byrnes, and heilman for a prospect. Then you sign Darren Oliver, and let parnell and kunz setup. You can’t trade wright, reyes, or tran, but you can’t fill all the holes just with free agency.
Heilman for a prospect. Hahahahahahahaha!!!!! You are FUNNY!
umm he will get a minor league prospect. prospect doesn’t mean blue chipper. for example, nick evans is a prospect. understand?
Minor leaguer does not mean prospect. Neise is a prospect, Pedro Alvarez is a blue chipper. Got it. Do you?
considering thats what i just said, yes.
No you said prospect, which we will not get, blue chipper or any other. We might get a minor leaguer for him…
I am hoping that Daniel Murphy shows the defensive ability to play second base for us next year. However, if the Mets decide to keep him in left field, what about signing Rafael Furcal to team up with Jose Reyes up the middle? Coming up from the minor leagues, Furcal was originally a second baseman.
Any thoughts?
Omar really needs to look at this roster carefully. As mentioned in the article, we got stars. This isn’t the problem. It’s who’s playing around the stars who’ve been the problem.
The ”non-star” Mets players can no longer be elderly. The only exception to this law can be Carlos Delgado – because he’s very productive and comes at a cheap price. In 2010 though, I’d move past him. The only other exception I’d make to is Derek Lowe, although I’m not against re-signing Oliver Perez at the right cost.
No Damion Easley. No Fernando Tatis. No Pedro Martinez. No Orlando Hernandez. No old guys who get hurt easily/
If we are going to sign veterans anyway, they should be veterans who produce. Veterans who play the game to win. Derek Lowe, Jeff Kent. Those kind of players.
I am all for keeping Tatis and Easley as the lone elder statesmen on the bench. They both bring a good attitude to the team and both want to win badly. Tatis can be pretty versatile for us, playing the OF and 1B as well to spell Delgado. No Pedro. No Alou. No El Duque.
Delgado is cheap, but old and would be a rent a player to who ever the Mets could possibly trade him for. The Mets would likely get some decent prospects for him, but they probably wouldn’t get developed bullpen alternatives. We need Carlos. He’s the reason why we even got to 89 wins. Omar’s made it pretty clear anyway that Carlos’ option will be picked up.
The idea of Daniel Murphy moving to second base is surely worth considering, but it can’t be depended on. The Mets will have a better idea at the end of the off-season. Regardless, Castillo can’t be here. Argenis can’t be starting. So the Mets probably will look to get a 2B off the FA market. If you moved Murphy over there anyway, there’d be a whole in LF. Finding corner OF’s are certainly easier though.
i would venture to say murphy at 2B is not worth it. and delgado plus heilman can get you a bullpen arm. With Delgado’s very reasonable salary, teams like the Rays, Jays, O’s, A’s, Royals, Twins, could all pick him up, especially just for one year as a DH to give them that extra push. And what all those type teams lack for in money they make up with in young talent.
They don’t have to get anything for Heilman. Just low to mid level minor leaguers. As long as they’re able to get rid of Schoenweis’ salary the same way they did Mota last season, I’m happy with that. Trade Duaner Sanchez for what ever you can get for him too.
Sign Juan Cruz. A good young right-handed reliever. I like Weathers, but he’s old. Than sign Dennys Reyes or Joe Beimel. It’s kind of weird how they’re born on the same exact day of the same exact year, but who cares lol Sign one of them.
Than get K-Rod. Give us a reason to believe. You got 33-34 million coming off the books. Just sign Lowe or Perez, sign K-Rod or Fuentes, look to sign either a 2B or LF and sign a couple set up men and we’re in business.
I’ve heard rumors of O-Dawg getting 13-15 million. That’s just too much for a 2B now in his 30’s who’s had injury problems. 8 home runs? 41 RBI’s? 107 games? Does this sound promising? Why lock off the idea of Murphy being the 2B at a cheap price too – even if it’s not next season?
ok so who do you want for 2B, 1B and LF next year?
Not O-Dog for 13-15 Million, that’s for sure.
THEN WHO? If not O-Dawg, who for those three positions and at what price?
Holliday (Fmart, Show/Heilman, Parnell/Kunz) , Delgado and Murphy/Easley/Barfield (Barfield coming from the trade of Heilman/Show and Castillo for Betancourt and Barfield)
laughable….first of all we aren’t trading murphy, easley is not tradable, if we trade parnell or kunz that means more money to have to spend on the bullpen and outfield in the near future……just laughable “hey lets send you all our garbage and an unheralded prospect who had a nice 2 months int eh bigs (murph) for Matt Holliday”
Can you read? Did I trade Easley or Murphy?
Yes you have to give to get. You can afford to trade 1 bullpen prospect in order to fill LF as long as you keep the other.
You really can’t read. It’s Fmart, Heilman/Show (which they have shown interest in both) and Parnell OR Kunz.)
mccain stinks and will come up short, just like your ability to come up with trades.
Maybe I can lay it out for you this way
LF: Holldiay (Trade OF Fmart, Heilmn or Show, Kunz OR Parnell)
2B Murphy, Easley or Barfield. (Barfield would be obtained by trading Heilman/Show and Castillo for Barfield and Betancourt)
1B Delgado
I’m currently in Cleveland and I don’t think we want Barfield with a 10ft pole. Something is wrong with him – he hit .250 in AAA with a sub .300 OBP this year. That is not gonna cut it in the majors.
I do like Betancourt, but, like Heilman he was very good last year and terribly inconsistent this year. We could definitely get him as a project though…
…but I forgot that the jacket is gone! haha.
Rafael Furcal is a free agent and mostly a shortstop by trade, but he has had experience at second base in the past. He had been hurt a lot of this year, so his price may be considerably down than what he typically would get if he had been healthy all year. If Murphy stays in left field next season, I just wanted to throw another name out there besides just hearing about Orlando Hudson.
Also, what are everyone’s thoughts on Brad Penny? I don’t really feel comfortable with handing Jon Niese the 5th spot next year. I want us to learn from rushing Mike Pelfrey too quickly. Let’s give Niese time to settle and work out his kinks. Brad Penny’s injury-marred year may limit what he will get on the open market. I think he would make a great addition to solidify the back end of the rotation. He’s always been a bulldog pitcher on the mound.
I think if you can get a guy like him for cheap it may be worth it. But note that these situations rarely work out.
Penny would be worth a look for #5. Furcal is still looking for big money and will get it from someone like the M’s or something.
I hope they give the job to Murphy at 2b. We let Keppinger go for essentially nothing and he turned into a serviceable 2b and a good hitter. We can live with average defense at 2b if Murphy continues to demonstrate he can hit ML pitching and has that developed eye.
I am still favoring a change in LF.
I would consider a big trade for holiday but would consider knocking on the door of the Yanks and see if they are interested in a young RF to replace Abreu who can tear balls over that short porch in RF they have and has excellent outfield defense and a gun.
Church for Nady straight up! Gets them a player a bit cheaper and one more year of control than Nady and it gets them more lefthanded which in that stadium is good.
For us…we get more RH which is good and we welcome back a guy who appears to be blossoming a bit.
so your right side of the infield is going to be Murphy, who was a disaster at 2B in AA, and an even older Delgado?
The Yanks have zero reason to trade Nady, and money is NO OBJECT.
Unless you trade Fmart plus Neise and more, Holliday isn’t coming.
I would easily do a deal with Colorado of Fmart and Niese and Heilman for Holiday and a window to extend him.
The yanks are not trading Nady and money is no option there but he is what we need…RH hitting outfielder with decent pop.
I’ll live with a right side of the infield of Delgado and Murhpy thanks.
This team was at its best when easly was hot and delgado was hot and they teamed up to be the least range Right side of the infield of any in recent memory.
Murphy will be at least average at 2b and may be able to develop himself like Wright did to become better than avg at the position
Great points. I don’t think it will take FMart AND Niese. I think it would be closer to Fmart, Heilman, and Kunz or Parnell.
As for the defense in the infield. If you have a ground ball pitcher there is nothing that says you can’t play Evans that day at 1B to give Delgado a break. Evans is supposed to be pretty good over there.
We really have no idea if Murphy can play 2nd or not. I am sure that can be answered this winter to an extent. He was not disasterous in the minors at 2B. He got to play 17 games and commited 5 errors. 3 in one game and all but one in the first 5 games.
That is why I like the idea of getting a scrap heap guy like Barfield to go with Easley if Murphy does not work out at 2B. Hudson is a great player but really look at his production and decide if we need that 15 million at 2B or SP and Closer?
Really I could not agree more
Barfield shouldnt be in a major league roster…hes way worse than Castillo…
Then we need a bat in RF. I would rather wait it out to see waht the market is like for Manny and the possible trade markets for Holliday and a guy like Soriano. Remember, Soriano has an inflated contract with the Cubs. He has been a semi-disappointment, spending lots of time on the DL. I wonder what it would take in addition to Fernando Martinez and Luis Castillo to get him. Sure, Castillo’s contract is bad, but Soriano is being overpaid for the next 5 yrs, while Castillo is being overpaid for the next 3…at a much lesser rate.
It’s just a wild thought for the day.
Here is a pattern:
Glavine, Pedro, El Duque, Wagner, Alou, Castillo
All guys who had amazing careers. And then they came to retire with the Mets. Can we stop being the Boca Raton of baseball?
Why the hell is Joel Sherman commenting on the Mets? Doesn’t he primarily write for the Yankees? He never ever says anything good about the Mets. He’s like Wally Matthews lite.
Shut up Sherman you pinhead, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Go write about what a hero Jeter is.
Saunders is a fluky, Aybar is a bench player, and Arredondo is good, but I’d never ever trade a guy like Jose to get someone like him.
However, he would never even consider trading a cornerstone player such as Melky Cabrera or Robinson Cano. I love how media likes to call Reyes a dog when he doesn’t hustle, but generally turn the other cheek, when the whole world sees Cano not hustling. Not trying to get on Cano’s case here, but people say the Yankees have earned that respect, blah blah blah. This group of Yankees has earned nothing. Charlie Hayes, Paul O’Neil, John Wetteland, Jimmy Key, Scott Brosius, Tino Martinez, Bernie Williams, and Chuck Knoblauch earned that.
If Jose Reyes gets traded, he is worth a stud, young, ace pitcher. Think Kazmir. However, I would never do that trade.
Joel Sherman is indeed a Yankee fan. I don’t believe he takes great pains to hide it. You’ll only ever hear that the Mets should trade Jose Reyes or David Wright from a Yankee fan…Ok and maybe an occasional Mets fan who’s missing his frontal lobe.
For all his excitement, Reyes rubs me the wrong way a bit. I was talking about it with my family, as it’s just hard to like this team the way it’s currently constructed.
Sometimes I think it’s just because the pen blows leads, but that’s happened before and we loved our own “losers.” Sometimes I think the language barrier hurts the relationship between players and fans, but then there’s a guy like Johan who you love out there and love hearing him talk about the game and about the fans. I don’t know what it is, maybe it’s not just one thing, but the attitude of this team just has something “off.”
Actually, maybe just get rid of Castillo, Scho and Heilman. That would probably do it for me.
Was reading Kansas city looking to make huge changes and there in the market for a big bat on one of the corners, a vet 2nd baseman and some reliever help. How bout we package heilman, Delgado, and castillo to them.
Soria will solve the closer problem and see what else they have to offer. Might work we have what they are looking for
What makes you think KC wants to eat all our leftovers and take out our garbage?
They are trying to pull themselves out of the mire, ans stupid trades like that aren’t going to help them. Just because it’s a good deal for us, it doesn’t mean they will jump at it. They actually need it to be a good deal for them too! What an interesting concept, huh!
The Mets must deal with the necessities not by trading other necessities, but by exercising all their options. The first is option is Free Agency, and the first problem is the bullpen.
The Mets should rid themselves of Heilman, Feliciano, Schoeneweis and Ayala.
They should keep Kunz, Parnell, Smith and Sanchez in the bullpen, sign Brian Fuentes, Dan Wheeler and Arthur Rhodes.
After that, they can explore a lot of options
The Mets should keep a rotation of Santana, Pelfrey and Niese, while letting Perez either come back at a low price, or sign with another team, giving the Mets two first round draft picks.
Should Perez leave, the Mets should look at the wide variety of starters in the FA, like AJ Burnett, Randy Wolf, Ryan Dempster, Randy Johnson and Carl Pavano. Ideally, I’d like them to get Burnett to a 4 year deal worth around $40 million, possibly adding a $8 million mutual option.
As for the rest of the team, I’d either want the Mets to keep Church, Delgado and Maine, or do the following:
Just keep Church,
trade John Maine for Adam LaRoche & Shelby Ford
Trade prospects Fernando Martinez, Mike Carp & Shelby Ford for Justin Duchscherer
Sign Jacque Jones & Rocco Baldelli
Lineup:
SS Reyes
2B Murphy
3B Wright
CF Beltran
1B LaRoche/Evans
RF Church
LF Baldelli/Jones
C Schneider/Castro
Rotation:
Santana
Pelfrey
Burnett
Duchscherer
Niese
Bullpen:
CL Wheeler
SU Kunz
MRP Fuentes
MRP Parnell
MRP Rhodes
MRP Smith
MRP Sanchez
You have too much free time.
Anybody with a brain knew that the Brewers were trash, and I want the Dodgers to win the whole thing anyway just to make the Steinbrenners look even dumber than they already are.
Why are you on here you stupid troll??
Congrats, on being on the verge of winning your 1st playoff series in 20 YEARS.
If you do make it to the NLCS, the Phillies will crush you (I hate the Phillies, but it’s a fact)
Correct me if I’m wrong–is this the same Dodgers team that hasn’t won a postseason series in 20 years? Or the team that got swept by the Mets two years ago?
LMAO, your team was an original National League franchise and has been in existence for over 110 years but has won only 4 more titles than the Mets whole sorry 45 year history, BRILLIANT POINT Dodger fan.
Wait… why is a Dodger fan trolling here? Shouldn’t they be on a Cubs site, or (here’s a brilliant idea) a Dodgers site? I swear I wouldn’t even think of visiting a Dodgers blog unless the Mets and Dodgers were playing in a playoff series head to head, and I’m positive I wouldn’t bother posting there.
But then, I’m not a troll. I’m an actual fan. “Troll”. Which is also an acronym for, “They Run One Loss Later”.
Big words from a guy who’s team won their division with 84 wins. Seriously man is this a joke you are in the playoffs because you play in the worst division in baseball the NL west is a step above AAA. Also when you consider in the Dodgers 125 year history they have only won 6 World Series I don’t think your one to talk. You are a perfect example of a LA fan you don’t know anything about baseball or your teams history you just jump on the band wagon when October comes. Go back to following who celebrity’s are dating and leave sports to the east coast.