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I realize it’s tough to watch a Met-free October, but I noticed a common thread among the remaining playoff teams and wrote a column about it on SNY.tv. The jist:
Of the four remaining playoff teams, not a single one hands the ball to a big-name free-agent acquisition with the game on the line. …
To put together a bullpen, a team needs an open mind and a short memory, not necessarily a fat wallet. The 2008 playoff teams have taken chances on scrap-heap acquisitions, converted young starters into relievers and made shrewd, buy-low trades.
For more on that and what it means to the Mets, go to SNY.tv.
Maybe if John Maine was used in the final two weeks we’d know if he was capable of being a Papelbon for us next year and beyond, and maybe he would have been our Wainwright for this year, pushing us that one game more into the postseason and beyond. But we won’t know because Manuel dropped his gangsta mindset and got soft.
He had an injury so it’s tough to second guess. The better thing to talk about is if Maine can be a closer for the Mets in 09. Thoughts?
I would like to see what Maine could do as closer. But that just opens up another hole in the roto; behind Santana/Pelfrey there would be nothing. Plus if Maine fails as closer and we move him back to roto we will need a backup plan for closer or else the bullpen will be a mess again.
You’re right about the rotation, while we already need 2 starters as is. Then again, a trade can always bring in another starter too.
If Maine turns into a closer we would need 3 new starters
Yeah … that’s pretty much what I meant when I said “we already need 2 starters as is”.
no way man
he has said before he doesn’t want to go to the bullpen and i think with how many pitches were getting fouled off this year (could have been cause of injury) it would be a disaster as a closer
Maybe. The one plus you can look at is the first inning of work that Maine produces … which is almost always a dominating 1-2-3 inning.
Can he do that 2 or 3 days in a row? I don’t know.
Not necessarily a good recipe for a starting pitcher either (i.e. throwing a lot of foul ball pitches).
Maine can strike people out. Something most of our bullpen seems to have forgotten how to do.
Maybe that’s why the names to watch for the back end of the Mets pen next year are Stokes (retread), and Parnell (young starter turned reliever).
Stokes had a few bad outings in September, but I never knew he had a 96 mph fastball before. Parnell was impressive (in fact, more impressive than Kunz) but may be just a bit too young.
Kunz needed to pitch more regularly. I bet he competes for a spot in that bullpen come the spring
with Kuz, it looks like he tops at 94 and only throws sinkerballs, that’s it. It’s amazing to me that a guy pitches in the college world series and minor league ball and never develops a second pitch.
Man, that rook was pitching so tight, Jerry M could not use him more. He was disasterous.
I like Parnell much more than Kunz, who looks to me like a set-up guy at best.
I don’t hear many good things about Kunz. I think it’s more a matter of stuff than innings for him, though I do agree he shouldn’t have been called up if he was just going to sit on his duff the whole time.
What about Lidge? He was a big name FA, wasnt he?
Yeah, but that’s not convenient for the article, so its left out. Come on Ted, I like your work, but please do the work.
And acquiring a player via a trade can be costly too. So your “theory” doesn’t really stand up.
Not yours, BringOnCiti – that was addressed to Ted.
I believe Teddy B was referring to Lidge as a “shrewd, buy-low trade”. He was not a FA when Philly aquired him.
But isnt that what luis ayala was?
They traded Bourn to get Lidge. That’s not exactly “low”.
Bourn is horrible. He is Rey Ordonez without the batting average.
hes 25 years old and he stole 40 bases. he batted high .200’s in the minors, so he could be a good hitter. bottom line is he was a legit prospect.
He was a legit prospect, but the “low” part of the term refers to the fact that Lidge’s stock had fallen since the infamous Pujols homerun and subsequent “head-case” label that was tagged on Lidge.
No. It was a trade.
Derek Lowe was a free agent. Pretty high price tag too.
No. Philly traded only Michael Bourne for him. Which makes me wonder why we didn’t go after him to be an 8th inning set up reliever – and eventually our closer.
Remember, Philly had Brett Myers as their closer at the end of last year.
I’m sorry. Philly traded Bourne and middle-inning reliever Geary.
yea its pretty pathetic when you think about how the phillies got lidge for nothing and allowed it to happen especially since wagner loves lidge and always wanted the mets to go after him.
He was a trade.
“not a single one hands the ball to a big-name free-agent acquisition with the game on the line. …”
Um, how about the Phillies giving the Lidge the ball with the game on the line? That doesn’t count?
See above. Lidge wasn’t a big name free agent acquisition. The Phils traded for an inconsistent bullpen arm who had an up and down year. It would be like Omar trading for Gagne this winter and Gagne returning to his all star form.
But the fact remains that they eventually shelled out a lot of money for him. You don’t NEED a huge purse to put together a bullpen but it doesn’t hurt. And with these other guys, pulled off the scrap heap – it’s a guessing game. Who knows if a guy is gonna turn it around. So teams need a short memory? Done. Let’s sign John Rocker.
He’d probably be better than Heilman.
Lidge was not a free agent. He came with Eric Bruntlett via trade for Michael Bourn, Geoff Geary and a prospect.
Lidge’s value had plummeted before the Phillies acquired him, hence the NL Comeback Player of the Year Award.
You’re right, Ted, I apologize, but I still don’t think your theory stands up. For all of the guys that have been successful, look at the retreads that have gone nowhere. Luis Ayala is right on top of that list. He was okay at first, but eventually got whacked. Like I said above, its a guessing game.
I won’t argue with that, but I don’t think I ever said every retread will have success. Obviously good scouting is a big part of it. I guess my point is, since putting together a bullpen is a big crapshoot anyway, why spend a lot of cash on it?
You’re right that it’s a guessing game, but obviously the teams in the playoffs this year guessed right. And they guessed right without spending a ton of money on their guys. Lidge got a big extension, yeah, but the Phillies initially bought low and are now reaping the benefits.
I just think that for every Lidge, there are way more guys that dont pan out. Id much rather spend the money on KRod than give manny a 5 year deal or get CC for 8 mill more/year.
AMEN! So true. Why WHY would NYM pay $15mm for K-Rod. Yeah, he was great during the regular season, but he pitched the Angels into a 2-0 ditch in his first appearance. Let’s spread that money around to build a strong, balanced bullpen.
second it. bring in everyone you can and see if someone sticks…in all honesty it wasnt a lack of closer that killed us it was 7 guys inthe pen who collectively were terrible, if you have 6 dominating guys in the pen and a bad closer you have….well the 2007 cleveland indians, seems to me they did just fine….and unlike the indians we can buy a closer-type in July
Yup, there is Wheeler, Cruz, Affedlt, Oliver, plus others i’m sure. They won’t cost nearly as much.
I third that.
Let’s bring in a bunch of $3mil guys like that — some can become pre-taxi Duaner, some won’t, but I think it’s the smarter move.
I know it’s not partisan waters, but with Posada catching one more year at most and likely moving to 1b in 2010, what do you think about moving Delgado and Heilman to the Yankees for Nady and Marte. We stick Nady in LF and overpay for the best FA out there, Teixeira. KRod signs with Anaheim and we still have money for the secondary pieces we are talking about. Delgado in the new stadium with the old dimensions could hit 40+ bombs.
That’s not going to happen. It’s just not going to happen. I have to believe the Yankees love what they got out of Xavier, and they have 1st basemen out the wazoo — did you know 362 different people manned 1st base for the Yankees in ‘08?
Yes, I agree it’s not going to happen but not for the reason you offer. Giambi, Duncan, Betemit, Sexson, Ransom, Miranda all played 1b for the Yankees in ‘08, and not one of them will start at 1b in ‘09. If you consider Matsui and Damon as 1bmen, then yes, they have two. Otherwise hey have NO option at 1b, and Posada will be there in a year, so they don’t want to clog the spot up for more than a year. They can instead sign an OFer to a long term deal and swap the one year deals of Nady for a 1bman — $12mil Delgado.
The reason it won’t happen is because both teams play in NY.
What big FA relievers were there this offseason? Dotel? Linebrink?
The rays are really the only ones that got creative. The Phillies had a relatively big name aquisition and the red sox and the cubs, even though wood came up like 40 years ago, had the benefit of a pitching rich farm system that produced awesome starters they were able to turn into closers for one reason or another, we don’t have that luxury.
Take failed starters who are middling in the minors and try them out for the pen. You could find a diamond in the rough where a pitcher suddenly excels in short spurts who only has to face the lineup once.
-closer – krod (R) (we all know him)
-setup – cruz (R) (51 IP, 71 SO, 2.61 ERA)
-smith (R) (Saw him last year)
-ohman/rhodes/feliciano (L) (ohman -58 IP 3.86 ERA)(rhodes-4.17 ERA)
-affeldt (L) (78 IP 3.33 ERA)
-ayala (not setup) (R) (Saw him last year)
-joe beimel (L) (49 IP 2.02 ERA)
3 lefties
3 righties
and krod
always have parnell available too or stokes instead of ayala
Ted makes a good point. Why not have a bullpen full of guys who can get batters out, even if they’re not superstars?
How about signing Cruz + one or both of the Japanese stars (Kawakami or Iwase)?
yeah or we could spend 50MM a year on the previous posters pen plan (not including wagners 15MM)…
wanna look at the phils? they traded a top prospect to get an underachieving lidge, they got jc romero off waivers (like ayala) eyre off waivers, and madsen (converted starter),
Omar tried this with Stokes and Ayala and it actually turned out they were the best guys in the pen this year…so….enough with Krod and his 7 blown saves (more than benitez used to have) and lets get converted starters and guys who are NOT ONLY specialists, eyre is more or less a specialist but at least he can pitch to the other side unlike smith, schow nad feliciano(who by the way can pitch to no one, he was the worst)
yeah or we could spend 50MM a year on the previous posters pen plan (not including wagners 15MM)…
wanna look at the phils? they traded a top prospect to get an underachieving lidge, they got jc romero off waivers (like ayala) eyre off waivers, and madsen (converted starter),
Omar tried this with Stokes and Ayala and it actually turned out they were the best guys in the pen this year…so….enough with Krod and his 7 blown saves (more than benitez used to have) and lets get converted starters and guys who are NOT ONLY specialists, eyre is more or less a specialist but at least he can pitch to the other side unlike smith, schow nad feliciano(who by the way can pitch to no one, he was the worst)
Brad Lidge…. he came up with the Phillies? Kerry Wood was scrap heap….
The Rays signed Troy Percival who got hurt…
And while Papelbon came up, their main setup man is some fella who was a free agent acquisition (Okajima).
THANKS THOUGH FOR THE RESEARCH.
Regards.
Huh?
Scott Shields was awesome, even last night… him and K Rod came up through the Angels system, so that’s one example…
Then there’s Jenks from the ChiSox, who i think was a farmhand
look at the Cubs Marmal and Wood and Smardja
Look at the Dodgers Broxton
… can Eddie Kunz be like that? He doesn’t have the velocity nor the arsenal of pitches, so I tend to think no.
jenks was let go by the angels and picked up by the white sox.
I don’t know how much Percival is making, but let’s keep in mind that he hadn’t been a full time closer since 2004 prior to this season.
As already noted, Lidge was traded for.
The Cubs are no longer in the playoffs, so that takes care of Wood (who was a converted starter anyway.)
Okajima is making under $2 mil this season. That’s not exactly big money in MLB.
Okajima was not exactly a flashy free agent singing at the time … but you gotta also look at the 92+ mph guys they have brought up through the system like DelCarmen and Masterson … that’s what a competant GM will do for a team… if only we had one of those
All Ted is talking about is an alternative to the “let’s throw lots of money and years towards an aging superstar” way of doing things. It’s a sound way of doing business for the long term.
At times I think I have wondered onto a Yankee website from a decade ago. Every other post calls for signing Manny or K-Rod for whatever it takes. That seems to be Omar’s MO, and it has yielded one post-season appearance in four years. You only need to look north to Boston to see a more sophisticated approach garnering better results.
Maine has the physical skills, but he walks too many guys and he has difficulty working through jams. Those are not the hallmarks of a good closer.
BTW, K-Rod did not look like a lights out closer in the Red Sox series. Can’t deny his stats, but I was expecting to see a much more dominant guy.
yeah, guys like Chad Bradford and Heath Bell have been very impressive these past two years of post-season play.
Right, because it was those two guys keeping their teams out of it.
That’s an idiotic thing to say.
Bradford has been great for the Rays … Bell was dominant in the 07 playoffs for the padres …it’s best to not be idiotic yourself when calling someone else idiotic.
My apologies, I thought you were hanging the failures of the Padres and the Orioles on those guys.
Tedd,
That article was a joke right? Umm out of all 4 teams in the playoffs not one of them had a big time free agent second baseman either. In fact Utley Pedroia and Dewitt are home grown…so the mets should what? Not go after Hudson or someone who upgrades their team? Sorry but their is no correlation whatsoever. The fact is KROD is a phenomenal closer who improves the pen. Yes, 6th 7th inning guys can be crapshoots, but you can pay big bucks for your 8th innning and ninth inning guys and be rewarded. Did Billy Wagner not help? Are you saying the mets should trust some hopefuls becuase the sox did? Did the sox do the same thing in right field or at starting pitcher (Dice K, Drew). You spend money where you need a fix, and right now Kunz, Ayala or Parnell don’t seem to be the answers, at least not at the all pressure spot of closer.
Wait this just in, the D rays and Phillies do not have a big time free agent starting pitcher either, no team in the league should look at CC.
what measurement are you using to determine he is a phenomenal closer. he is a good closer, but he is not even in the top 5. mo, papelbon, soria, nathan, lidge, wood, are all clearly better.
the Mets should sign Lowe, retain Ollie, and let Neise and Parnell fight for the 5th spot. John maine has a better fastball and changeup than KRod ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.
so you are basing all information of Krod on this year alone? I would hate to see what you would have said about Lidge just a year ago. Are there better closers then KROD? Probably, 5? Maybe, 10? NO WAY. Our pen would be greatly enhanced with the addition of Krod. Or does parnell, kunz and ayala have better stuff then him as well?
“John maine has a better fastball and changeup than KRod ANY DAY OF THE WEEK” your homerism is beyond laughgable. You realize you are talking about a guy who is having arm issues, and hasn’t won more then 30 games in the majors? He has never had a save and has never pitched out of the pen. Can we consider him an 8th innning tryout? YES, but give him the closer spot? silly.
Hey Tedd another way to look at the 4 teams still in the playoffs, each of them has experienced closers with more then 50 career saves (with a possible exception to Balfour- if percival, who got them there, is out)
Ted, I posted this as a reply as well but Derek Lowe was a high priced free agent signing. Also Daisuke fits the majority of criteria as a free agent.
I just meant in the bullpen, though I can see how that’s unclear from the excerpt above.
and Ted, I read your post as “hands the ball with the game on the line” as in a game 7. My bad.
when was the last time a home-grown closer was traded or signed away as a FA in their prime (aka when they were at the top…so, not lidge, he was demoted from the closers role for how many years before beign traded) and still pitched well? I got Wagner on that list and no one else……so maybe Omar knows what he’s doing and you guys can just stop
wagner was not in his prime with us. and wagner was a dissapointment, blowing big games.
If Wagner was a dissappointment than who do you suggest the Mets get…Rivera is not available and Krod blew at least 7 games in his best season ever!!!! i mean…wow…who do you suggest
I suggest doing like the Red Sox, Angels, Yankees, Twins, Royals, among other teams do and promote from within. John Maine would be a better choice than KRod, as he is a better pitcher.
ohOK, aggreed, sorry thought you were one of the big name FA people.
Maine would be terrible as he would never be able to pitch 3 days in a row with the amount of pitches he throws, but yeah take Parnell or Kunz (or dare I say Heilman) and jsut tell them tomorrow that they are the closer next year and if they cant cut it, we’ll find a replacement in July
the goal should be to get the best BULLPEN not closer, and like I said before, look at the 07 Indians, amazing pen with guys you never heard of and a bad closer in Borowski, worked out well for them….it wasnt the pen that stopped them from the WS
john maine throws 96-97 when he doesn’t have to conserve. He is a strikeout pitcher. There is no reason to believe he couldn’t do the job. He reminds me of Papelbon, who btw, was a starting pitcher.
Papelbon can get a guy out in less than 10 pitches, Maine cant, thast why, Maine could be a good closer, but he couldnt pitch more than 50-55 games in a year with that many pitches being thrown
The two greatest closers in baseball history were starters. when they broke in (Rivera and Eckersley). Smoltz was as good as either of them for a short time. Papelbon was a starter. Nathan and Lidge were both starters in the minors. Gagne and Izzie were starters as rookies.
The argument is not whether or not Maine could make the transition – it’s whether he’s most valuable as a starter or reliever. Neither commodity is abundant…the difference is if you take Maine out of the rotation, you’ve got 3 rotation holes to fill. That’s a ton, especially because we don’t know what to expect from Pelfrey going into his second full year. K-Rod won’t be cheap, but signing him doesn’t deplete you in any way except monetarily. Honestly, I don’t love K-Rod, but I think he’s your best option if you’re not willing to wait two years to groom a closer…
I’d love for the Mets to find their own solutions instead of paying a lot and sacrificing their farm for other teams left-overs.
I agree with Ted in that over time a bullpen can be created without free agents. However, when an entire overhaul is necessary as the Mets have shown, free agents are a must.
Im not necessarily opposed to trying a guy like Parnell as a closer, the only problem with that is there is no fallback guy to rely on in the organization, except for maybe Kunz. Just because Stokes throws 96 doesnt mean hes a closer, lets not forget he is a failed major league pitcher from the rays picked up off the scrap heap.
Im not 100% sure that K-Rod is the answer to all of the problems, but I am 100% sure that this team needs to acquire at least 2 arms that can strike people out consistently and still overhaul the entire bullpen at that, im sorry but you need to pay K-Rod or Fuentes, and acquire other arms via trade, or trade for a lights out closer and sign 1 or 2 setup guys that are out there, and those guys arent cheap.
Ted, gotta say while correct that none of these teams have high priced relievers that is NOT the reason these teams have good bullpens. plane and simple the reason these teams have good bullpens is they have guys who throw hard and can get RH and LH out. the whole mets bullpen is specialists. that is omars fault, we had two live arms in bell and lidstrom who were traded away, i know bell didnt do well here but he also was never given a fair shot to be in the pen on a consistent basis. if we still had bell and lidstrom our bullpen would be very similar to the rest of the teams in the playoffs.
I agree with Lindstrom…Bell was given his chances, for years, to help this team and the way he pitched for the mets made Jorge Sosa look good, I mean if Guerra comes into his own 5 years after he shouldve did that mean the mets screwed that up to?!?!
I understand we had those guys and both trades were pretty terrible. However, Vargas is still young. Let’s see if he can do something. Let’s also not forget the trade of Jae Seo for Duaner Sanchez. Omar has done things to help the bullpen, but it seems like his theory is that they are a crap shoot aside from your closer from year to year. I happen to agree.
Duaner Sanchez’s car accident basically ruined the bullpen.
Hard throwers who can get Ks + guys who are NOT specialists + guys who can go more than 1 batter = good bullpen.
The Mets lacked all of that last season
correct. Do you realize that besides Heilman and Wagner, no reliever the Mets had (prior to stokes and ayala joining) could throw over 90 mph consistently?
Schow tops at 88-90
Duaner now tops at 90, with rare glimpses of faster
Smith 89
Feliciano 87
yeah, i said that a couple weeks ago. When your starter gets tired and you turn to the bullpen, the best option is to have high velocity relievers, not 88-90 mph retreads.
Krod
Cruz
Affeldt
Smith
Beimel
Ohman
Ayala or stokes or parnell
I kno people dont like the “ifs” but if the mets had this bullpen this year, then then they would still be playing baseball right now…they would have finished the season with the best record in the NL…this might sound crazy but its true. 29 BS with krod u get at least 2 thirds of that back…that right there could be 15 wins a least….all of the games that were blown in the 7th and 8th innings by hielman and shoew and whoever…..with this pen half those games would not have been lost….i like the idea of getting another bat but i would much rather see the bullpen get completely changed and add one or two starters first….then add the bat.
they can’t bring in all of those guys……and handing out contracts to middle relievers is never smart. i’d like to see:
D. Oliver – L
Stokes- Long
Smith – R
Parnell – 7th
Kunz – 7th
Downs – 8th
Maine- Closer
if Maine is the close who are gonna be he starters?
johan, lowe, pelfrey, perez, neise/knight/garland
you are drunk if you think the Mets are gonna sign 3 FA starters!
i count two, one if which is a re-sign. garland would be a fallback option
i would not give maine the closing role…after this year they must get a defined closer…..we have no idea what maine would bring……remember two years ago when maine was an amazing starter, he may be a lights out starter…he will pitch bettre cuz hes not injured..
Josh Bard cleared waivers yesterday and has elected for free agency this winter. I know the catching position is towards the very bottom of list regarding the Mets priorities right now, but Josh Bard really would not be a bad player to show some interest in. He was injured for much of last season, but Bard has been able to produce very well away from the confines of Petco Park as a good contact hitter. He’ll be turning 31 years old at the start of next year too.
I used to want k-rod but if he can’t peform on the big stage whats the point?
I say sign manny, trade evans, heilman and feliciano for a good bullpen arm and spend that cash you would have spent on krod to get 4 great relievers (like what someone said in a previous post). I can live with that.
Unfortunately the Mets can only sign 2 type A free agents so the majority of the work will be via trading. I suggest making trades to fix the offense and the majority of the pen. Then sign someone like Lowe to the rotation, and K-Rod to the pen. Offense comes last in my opinion when it comes to free agents
Another reason why taking a flier on one or two of the Japanese pitchers would be a good idea.
Off topic, but I wanted to get the opinions of loyal metsblog readers. I am mulling getting tickets next year in either the left or right field reserved seats (in fair territory), but have almost always sat on the first base side at Shea.
I wanted to see what you guys thought about the seats out there in the outfield at CitiField. Thanks!
MANNYYYY………SIGN HIM OMARRR…………………NOWW…..
Manny = postseason
and in a week or two
MANNY = WORLD SERIES
WHOS CARES HOW OLD HE IS……..HE IS THE BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER IN THE GAME TODAY!!!!!!!
how old r u?
y u askin?? im 23
b/c you sound like someone who hasn’t watched baseball before the steroid era…..which you havent as a 23 year old.
i honestly dont understand what u r saying?? manny is on steroids…or hes not the best offensive player
Personally Id love to sign Manny but a 5 year contract is too much ,he’ll be 42 by the end of it. I think something like 3 years is more realistic.
jj putz ,brian fuentes and juan cruz. nuff said?
who do you trade for putz?
ryan church ,mike carp and carlos muniz
Or nick evans ,carlos muniz and mike carp/ seattle needs some young power.
fuentes isnt coming unless he is the closer
maybe we can get putz and miguel cairo remember him?
Putz is a question market just like Street. Finding good young relievers/closers on the market is so thin that their value gets too inflated. I don’t see Putz or Street coming to New York. On the other hand, I do see Fuentes and Cruz as a realistic possibilities. And if we get those two + a guy like Dennys Reyes or Will Ohman type lefty, I’d say we’ve successfully revamped the bullpen.
That’s an important observation Ted.
Beyond your closer, I don’t think you can buy a perfect bullpen. They’re too finicky.
I think you have to stock it deep with a range of veterans, young folks, former starters, and perennial middle guys. You have to expect people to rise and fall and be flexible enough to adjust.
Guys Juan Cruz is a Type A free agent. Do you really want to waste a Type A on a middle reliever?
is he? how do you know?
why not? use him as a closer.
I do not want K-rod, i do not want Sabathia, I do not want Manny. I’d prefer a role player like Casey Blake.
dude how do u kno whos type a and type b
mlbtraderumors has a link to projected elias rankings.
Is he really type A? The right-handed reliever’s market is thinner than lefty’s, but there’s still some out there. The problem is other righty’s like Weathers and Brocail are older.
I’d still sign him though. We need a win now mentality.
It is true that all the remaining teams didn’t waste loads of money on relievers. However, Philadelphia did acquire Lidge via trade and gave him a nice extension. They got Romero cheap initially, but had to give him a decent amount to keep him.
Look at the White Sox though. They made it. Perhaps if the Mets signed Dotel instead of the W-Sox, the Mets and Twins would have been in the playoffs. Didn’t Chicago use a lot of money on Linebrink too?
You need to grow talent in your system. Or know how to move player’s in and out of roles. And know when to pull the plug on guy’s like Heilman. The Mets haven’t done this well. They’ll need to correct it through time, but it’s not going to change in a year. Option B would be to sign some FA’s and make some trades that can help our bullpen.
If the Brewers shop the Prince, could/should the Mets get in on it? I think they should because we’d be able to shop Delgado and have a young star 1B to compete with Howard.
NO I DON’T WANT THAT FATS ON MY TEAM!!!!!
hed cost more than he is worth…so no
we need to get ugy urbina out of jail
Well he’s been keeping the seat warm for Ambiorix lol
guys what would you prefer?
sign manny for 4 years/70
or
trade f-mart.parnell/niese/evans for holliday
If we traded all that for Holliday, we’d be getting ripped off really bad. Forget that Holliday is a FA soon. That’s just too much to give up.
If it were to come between the two, I’d choose Manny. You lose a draft pick or two. Not major league ready prospects. However, I don’t see either one coming to New York as likely. Manny certainly is a possibility and something worth thinking about, but Holliday isn’t.
manny
Sign Manny its only costing us money…not players…Manny has never had injury problems and has shown no indication of decline…worst case scenario he gets injured..but that could happen to any player…if his performance declines he’ll still be a VERY productive player
John Maine wasn’t going to solve our probablys as a reliever in the last couple weeks. Who says he would have thrown well or not gotten hurt? We all know the Mets were going to lose regardless of the circumstances. The only thing that could have saved this team is if the Mets had a better bullpen or Milwaukee didn’t get red hot the last week.
problems*
The NLCS starts Thurs… the ALCS starts Friday… that is unbelievably stupid.
The Dodgers will be going 4 days with no games, the phillies 3. How ridiculous … these teams play everyday all summer and now they get half a week off … and they’re supposed to be at the top of their games when they resume … un–real
I always hated the way the playoff is structured. They should play 7 straight games without a day off – even if they have to fly coast to coast.
During the season the Mets had to fly to California to play the next night after playing a Sunday night game.
I’ve always felt that the playoffs is to determine the best team, not just the team with the best pitcher (or two). If my number 1 pitcher is so good he can beat you 3 times, then you are down to just getting 1 win out of the other 4 pitchers. That is, I may have the dominant #1 (like a Mike Scott or Orel Hersheiser), but my 4 other starters may not be as good as yours.
You win the regular season with 5 starting pitchers, so why a competition to find the best team be determined by only 2 or 3 of these pitchers?
5 years is too much of Omar. We all hear 5yr/85MM right now, but when loads of teams start negotiating the number can hike up to 100M.
Originally I thought he’d wind up commanding a 4yr/80MM type deal so a 5yr/85MM isn’t all that much worse. I think that’s way too many years for a guy his age. Even if he’s awesome. Between the competition of the Dodgers, Yankees and other teams, he’ll get more than 3. 4 years is a given + a possible team option/buyout. I’m thinking the Mets can offer Manny a 4yr/68MM with a 5th Team Option Year or 4MM buyout clause.
The evaluation of Daniel Murphy’s progress at second base is one of the most important things this offseason for several reasons. It’d solve so many question marks.
1) Daniel Murphy would have a spot on this team that he knows is his. There’d be no F-Mart looking over his shoulder. It’d be his spot to lose and I doubt he ever would.
2) The idea of re-signing Damion Easley or someone a little better like Ray Durham wouldn’t be necessary.
3) Finding a corner OF on the FA market is so much easier than a 2B because there’s so many more and they’re better hitters.
4) If somehow the Mets were able to swap Castillo for Byrnes becomes an even better idea because it frees up money at 2B and opens up a spot in LF. Of course the Mets would be paying Byrnes 2 yr/22MM, but he can turn out to be a lot better than Castillo. At least there’s hope with Byrnes. What hope is there with Castillo? The only reason why Castillo hasn’t been waived is because he’s a 2B, not an OF.
5) We can be a real player for Manny Ramirez and either Fernando Martinez or Ryan Church down the road can get us some good prospects.
agreed…i think Manny is very important to the future success of this team….lets quit messin around and win a ring
As long as he wants to play here and he doesn’t want 5 years, I’m in… I still think he’s too happy in LA and LA’s got a lot of money. They gave up a lot to get him and if they get to and/or win a WS, it won’t help the Mets chances.
very well said….i agree 100 perceent….it would solve many problems if we knew want murphy was doin..
I still believe it comes down to signing one of Manny, Sabathia and K-Rod – you have to choose Sabathia. Signing Sabathia is really only like signing Oliver Perez + another 7 or 8 mill a year pitcher. They’d still have enough left over to get Fuentes.
Signing Manny takes money away from what can be used on both starting pitching and relievers. Sign all Manny, one of Ollie/Lowe/Lohse + Fuentes + another two good relievers isn’t something I’d expect to happen. However, I can see Sabathia/Fuentes + a couple of relievers. Trade Castillo for Byrnes. See what you can do with Murphy at 2B.
The question of Orlando Hudson will come up too. I’d much rather see Murphy there because I personally think he’s just as good if not better. Hudson’s injury and salary demands might just be too much for the Mets to want.
why cant we sign Manny and Sabathia?
Really? Are you serious? Not even the Yankee’s could afford that. You would be adding 150-200 million to the payrole.
I think that if you believe that Sabathia can last throughout the contract you have to get him over a reliever. The starter handles over 200 inings, while the reliever only throws 60.
I never understood why pitching the last inning with a lead is so much more stressful than having to pitch the first 7 hoping your team can give you a lead.
So many other teams have pitchers that can throw an inning (mid relief) without imploding – whay can’t the Mets pitchers get 3 outs. So many times, they’d get 2 outs and a little single. You feel, ok, its just a single – all they need is an out in any form. Next thing you know is that the other team scored 3 or 4 runs.
How about ryan church,carlos muniz and mike carp for putz, cairo and corcoran?
I’d do that trade. I just don’t think many teams out there regard Mike Carp or Carlos Muniz too highly. Cairo’s a FA too.
So in the Mariners eyes, it’d be Church for Putz/Corcoran. They might see that as giving up too much. We may be able to pull off Church for Putz straight up which would be something worth thinking about, but it’d create another gap in the OF. The Mets already got one there. It’d make us sign Ibanez or Abreu to a 2 or 3 year deal at like 13-15MM a year. Probably more money than what they’d sign to get Fuentes.
they wont do church for Putz straight up…Putz is a very established closer
It may take Kunz too. Or Parnell. I’m not sure exactly what it’d take, but he is a good pitcher. I still believe it’s a better idea to explore the FA market than look via trade though. If you sign a FA and it’s a bust, you waste money. Just look at Erik Bedard. Look at how miserable of a transaction that turned out to be.
Either K-Rod or Fuentes has to end up on this roster one way or another. Kerry Wood will probably remain in Chicago and is a really big injury risk, so I won’t include him there.
Another good thing with Murphy playing 2B too is he’ll very cheap for a while… And his great plate discipline can allow him to bat 2nd. He goes the other way. He’ll allow Jose to steal. The only thing he can work on a little bit is bunting.
I’d love to get Manny, but if we can’t I still wouldn’t be discouraged at this line up…
1) SS Reyes
2) 2B Murphy
3) CF Beltran
4) 1B Delgado
5) 3B Wright (or what ever variation of these three)
6) RF Church
7) LF Byrnes
8) C Schneider/Castro
i mean thats pretty much the same lineup we had last month thant couldnt score any runs in big games
You’re right, but in my opinion I think you’re looking at it the wrong way. The Mets line up put them in position to win 100 games going into the 9th inning. Do you know how many jolts they got? From Delgado? From Tatis? From Beltran and Reyes? And yes – even Wright. No one will remember that Delgado grand slam because the Mets didn’t win the game.
The Mets this year at any given time could have been down 6-3 in the 7th. They score three runs. Now it’s 6-6. They give up 2 runs. Than the Mets score one. Than the bullpen gives up another run. And than the game ends. People don’t remember 4 runs in 3 innings because the Mets lose the game. The bullpen cost us our losses – not the line up.
I know our lineup was 3rd in hte league in runs scored…but i feel like a lot of those runs scored were scored during spots that werent important like when we were down huge or up huge
I felt the same way at times. Definitely in the last couple weeks. Probably in every month except for July and August.
The truth is though the Mets offense provided more than enough for this team to win games. A lot of there runs came to pampering cushions, but those counts.
Just look at the game in Philly when the Mets lost after winning 7-0. Pedro gave up 5 runs. When it’s all said and done, it’d probably be better if Pedro was known apart of the ‘08 Mets bullpen because he’s the only starter who pitched horrible enough to camouflage.
I know the Mets didn’t score for 9 straight innings in this game and probably could have gone even another 9 without. 7 runs should have been enough though. And it wasn’t. And that’s sad. And the lack of initiative to say no to Pedro and to make significant in-season bullpen moves cost the Mets the season.
1) SS Reyes
2) 2B Hudson
3) CF Beltran
4) 1B Delgado
5) 3B Wright
6) RF Church
7) LF Murphy/Evans
8) C Schneider/Castro
This can work too… As long as the rotation and bullpen look like this below, the line up will do just fine.
Ace – Santana
2 – Lowe
3 – Pelfrey
4 – Maine
5 – Niese or a FA
Stokes or Parnell – Long Man
Seanez – middle reliever
Smith – Righty Specialist
Feliciano – middle reliever
Dennys Reyes – lefty specialist/set up
David Weathers – set up
Brian Fuentes – Closer
The Mets were even in position to win more than 100 games. There we 18 more blown saves that came in innings before the ninth, so the Mets technically were in position to win 118.
A normal bullpen does not blow 29 saves. Or 11 in the ninth inning. Maybe like 10-15 for the year and 4 or 5 being in the 9th. If the Mets blew half the total they did this year, they would have won 100+. People don’t realize how good the hitting and how good the starting pitching was even through these injuries. They don’t remember it because the bullpen was as rock bottom as baseball has seen in decades.
I agree but i dont think the mets with a solid bullpen were a good enough TEAM to beat an AL team in hte world series…the lineup didnt play as well as a TEAM
You’re right. I don’t believe this team had enough to win a world series this season. Nor last season. The Mets did have enough to make it to the postseason and beat a cursed dead Chicago Cubs team in the 1st round. Or for that matter, possibly even Milwaukee.
If the Mets had gone 10-7, they would have clinched and won the division on the tie breaker with the Phillies. Milwaukee did play tough so they may have actually beaten the Mets. The only reason why the Brewers hotness ended was because the Phillies didn’t. The Brewers had lots of bullpen woes just like the Mets. A fired manager. An ace who threw amazing. They only went 8-9 in their last 17.
On paper at least, I don’t think either NL team has a chance against either of the AL teams that are left for that matter. The home field is just icing on the cake.
as for heilman id try him as starter again[since he hates being a reliever] let him prove how much he wants to be a starter.trade church and fmart to seattle for bj ryan .And send nick evans and mike carp to pittsburgh for jason grabow.
Aaron Heilman will be hated in this city even if he throws a perfect game. He has to go. The Mets would never give him a chance to prove himself in the rotation anyway. And I personally don’t think he’s worth depending on. He’s psychologically burnt out here. They need to send him off somewhere else for the sake of everyone.
Pittsburgh probably wouldn’t do that deal. And I think you meant the Jays, but that’s a lot to give up for a closer who’d had Tommy John and becomes a FA sooner than later.
i didnt know he had that surgery.But 32 saves and 2.95 era?
oops! i meant church and fmart to the blue jays.
I wonder if Omar ever looks at this website for ideas?
I wish he would lol If he doesn’t get a new bullpen for next season, I think the Wilpon’s want him to be stupid. Kind of like the same way some guy’s want a girl to act dumb for them lol It probably makes them feel smarter.
i am omar…i like your ideas guys…keep it up because otherwise i would have no idea what to do
if the mets want to keep church then sign a free agent reliever and trade for a good setup man and a powerhitting outfielder.I am a little leary on delgado having another year like 2008 however.
I don’t know how many years Abreu’s looking for nor do I know what exactly the Yankees are interests are, but I’d feel much better with him in our line up over Ryan. He’s a better hitter who’s done well in the NL. Church is a lot more cost friendly, but if they can get a couple of good set up man I really think it’d be worth it. His value could be higher though considering the concussions.
I do know one thing san fran was dead last in home runs in the major leagues only 94 as a team.
who is the giants 1st baseman?
Fuentes had identical numbers to B.J. Ryan. Ryan is paid 10MM in ‘09 and ‘10 which is virtually the same thing Fuentes is looking at. They’re the same age and both lefty. The thing that puts Fuentes on top of Ryan in my mind is that Fuentes has higher K and lower walk totals, he hasn’t had Tommy John, he’s an NL closer and he wouldn’t cost us F-Mart + others.
It’s really a golden opportunity for the Mets. To have both K-Rod and Fuentes out there. Fuentes should cost one less year and probably 5MM less annually, so I think he’s the better option. It don’t matter who’s the closer if there isn’t a sound bridge to built for them though.
I haven’t really heard him mentioned much, but Rafeal Furcal is another option at 2B. I remember in the ‘05 going into ‘06 season, the Mets thought of signing him. He got hurt this year, but was on pace to a great season. He played some 2B with Atlanta when he came up. I think he’d be capable of doing it again. I don’t know what he’d cost, but he may be worth if it’s at the right price and they can get Crapillo out of town.
Furcal would be a great addition at 2b if it is a possibility
and add some speed to 2nd base.
either way its time for Omar to show[especially with his 4 yr ext] to show he can rebuild this bullpen.Not being cocky but i said the mets should have traded wags earlier in the year.
id also like to know what the mets scouts saw in kunz? the hardest ive seen him throw was 94.But he doesnt right now look like a future closer.
i beleive the mets pick in the 2009 draft as of right now is 25th.So you might as well sign a closer.
While I agree a lot of bullpen arms are hit or miss …
didn’t 3 of the final 4 teams in 06 have big FA closers (Jones DET, Wagner, NYM, and Izzy STL)?
Just b/c something has to be true for a small sample of 4 teams this year, doesn’t make it a rule.
Did you know that more people die in hospitals every year than at home? So, if I get very sick, I’m staying home…..