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Matthew Cerrone, from MetsBlog: I think a lot of fans were excited when they heard Jerry Manuel in his press conference talking about going back to a hard nose, gritty kind of fundamentally-sound type of offense. I think Mets fans love those type of players, that is kind of what the history of the team is and they love that stuff.
However, Dave from Princeton asks, “How do you evaluate and identify a ‘gritty, clutch player?’ Is there a stat that you look at? Is it just reputation? How do you define gritty?”
Omar Minaya: Well, you identify it by seeing the player in the trenches. A lot of people think that some guys are ‘clutch players,’ but the reality is that they are not really ‘clutch,’ it’s just the perception. A lot of it has to do with perception. People want to perceive one guy to be one thing, but in reality you don’t know if these guys are good ‘team players’ or ‘selfish players’ internally, you don’t know these things… I know a lot of players that are considered really ‘tough players’ and they’re not – they are basically ‘selfish players.’
Matthew Cerrone, from MetsBlog: Plus, you then have to apply that to New York. I imagine that brings a whole other level.
Omar Minaya: Yeah, I mean, it is all perception. The perception of how players are and the reality of how they are, a lot of times, they just don’t correlate.
Matthew Cerrone, from MetsBlog: Do you feel it out by asking other players who may have played with him? Like, is it word of mouth? Or, is it…
Omar Minaya: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a combination of listening to all the players and listening to the other coaches and managers, listening to all of these things to make a true evaluation. I’ll tell you that we do have some guys here that are finding it out. Also, a lot of times, the fans don’t know which players are playing hurt either.
Matthew Cerrone, from MetsBlog: Right, like with Beltran, I would think. I know he spoke with reporters a lot this season, and played through a ton of injuries, and ran out there, and I don’t think he gets enough credit for that.
Omar Minaya: I mean, Beltran is one of the ‘toughest players,’ who grinds it out as much as he can and does it in a smooth fashion. But fans, because he is so smooth, fans don’t see that, you know… I mean, Carlos Beltran, the last few years down the stretch, has been banged up, but he went out and played outstanding, while being really, really hurt. That’s ‘tough.’
Question 5, which deals with the bullpen, will post at 1 pm.
To read a full transcript of this entire interview, click here.
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I still don’t understand what gritty is.
If it’s Kevin Youkillis then yes lets get as many gritty players as we can.
If it’s David Eckstein/Juan Pierre/Argenis Reyes/etc please lets stay far far far away.
lollllll agreed. Gritty is hard to determine imo….same as this whole “heart” arguement.
Agreed. It’s a cop out for average to below average white players. Sorry but it is what it is.
Not true at all. All things being equal, I take Ryan Church who’s playing balls out everyday over J.D. Drew who lands on the DL with a broken nail 100 times out of 100…
they are both white.
which is my point entirely…. or is that what you’re getting at too?
That is the point. How many black or latino “gritty” players can you name?
Was Argenis Reyes gritty or did he just bring energy?
Never heard him mentioned as GRITTY.
I can think of several – Beltran, Vlad, Vizquel, Reyes, Ortiz, Hudson, Cameron, Upton, Kemp, Sheffield, Zambrano (we can throw pitchers in, right?) for starters. I think they all have solid approaches to the game.
Unfortunately, you’re right that Latinos like Cano, Soriano, Abreu, etc. who are either “soft” or hot-dogs get more heat than a white softie like J.D. Drew… and black players like Bonds, Sheffield, etc. who have reps as head cases get it more than their white counterparts.
Here is my list of gritty non-white and Japanese players:
Pedro Serano
O-Dog
Ray Durham
Coco Crisp
Grady Sizemore
Jorge Posada
The artist formerly known as Julio Franco
Jose Valentin
Vlad the impaler (no batting gloves, uniform always dirty)
Moises Alou (mumified after every game, but lazy with his rehab)
Cliff Floyd has got to be at the top of my list.
I agree with this whole sentiment. You know in the 9th inning of Game 7 of the NLCS Jose Reyes hit an absolute bullet to the outfield which probably would have tied/won the game. The only thing was with the way the defense was playing the RF had to only take a few steps to catch the ball. Had the ball been hit a bit more towards cf or been a little bit lower of a line drive the Mets may have won the game and Reyes would be one these “clutch/heart/gritty” players.
These terms are great for talking players up but mean nothing when it comes to actually play on the field.
You are right if Gritty means an MVP type player like Youkilis or Pedroia then sign me up. But will take the Mets “soft” MVP candidates any day of the week over a crappy “gritty” player
Great post. We just need league average guys in LF and at 2B and all of a sudden we will be much more clutch. We need new BP blood and all of a sudden they will be clutch.
It’s not as hard to determine as much as it’s a misunderstood concept. I think “gritty” players often get confused for serviceable role players.
Sort of like how some of my Yankee friends talk about Brosius, Tino, and O’Neill. Nothing gritty or hard-nosed about any of them… they were just above average role players to complement the “superstars”
i agree…my point is very simple guys…things like “heart” and “grit” and “clutch” are all things that are subjective…..we need people that statistically have proven to do a job. The yankees of the late 90’s didnt have mega superstars but rather people who just did their role playing jobs…..attributes such as grit and heart are subjective and no real facts/stats to justify either or.
Yup. I think what I’m reading here today is that we all don’t need a roster full of rotisserie all-stars like the Yankees, and by the same token, we don’t need a roster full of untalented “gritty” players.
A balanced roster is what we’re aiming for….
All I am is happy that Omar understands that most of the talk about “Grits McHeartandsoul” is perception and that fans are not in a good place to make those kinds of calls. He sees that perception and reality conflict often.
For my taste, he still gives too much credence to “grit” arguments, but he does display some skepticism of that sort of thing; and he hints that he focuses more on production.
Also, that “selfish” conjures images of Paul LoDuca, whom the Mets were in no way inclined to resign. Good for Omar that he saw through LoDuca’s farce.
I think omar is right on that. We can speculate all we want but we do not know the inner realities of situations. Beltran has earned all our respect(i believe) after the 05 season. Beltran def does not get enough credit on here but i think gritty player is tough to determine. I think we should get players that understand their roles and can accomplish them on a consistant basis.
Beltran has earned our respect in spades. The problem with Beltran is that he’s a cla$sy, soft-spoken nice guy. That’s not going to earn you the cla$sification of ‘gritty’ from the fans. Also, because he didn’t immediately live up to the ridiculous standards set by his contract and that postseason with Houston, fans jumped off the Beltran bandwagon. The same fans on here that are calling for him to be the core piece to be traded. Lunacy, I tell you.
Heck, he even tried to fire the team up with some smack talk to the Phillies before the season when Wright and Reyes were too gutless to step up as real leaders. He gets no credit for that because his personality doesn’t really lend well to that kind of thing, so it seemed weak.
Sorry, you want ‘grit’, ‘heart’, and ‘gut’, look at Beltran and Santana.
Also we are told we don’t have leaders on this team, yet I hear Murphy talking about how Beltran helps him out on every pitch/AB on where to stand and how to play balls in the OF. I see Delgado going into the pitcher anytime an ump squeezes the pitcher or the pitcher is in a tough spot. But our guys do not have leadership.
exactly….we have seen many forms of leadership but most people sacrifice that to prove their point. Ive seen leadership out of most of the guys people on here have been advocating to trade off. Like gina has been saying its not easy to find “gritty” players because all that stuff(including heart) is subjective. I could think a player is gritty and half of the people on the blog may disagree and the FO may disagree..
However if we were to debate which stats could define gritty would be a better argument but to try to determine what is gritty based off perception will get us nowhere. Thats why baseball(and most sports really) is considered a numbers sport…numbers are factual and dont lie.
I won’t deny any of that. Well said. However, keep in mind that numbers can be misleading.
true if used in the wrong combo to justify a point. Overall however you can tell a story of a ml player career with stats.
I agree 100%. All I’m saying is to be careful. I often see arguements based solely on heavy manipulation of numbers, and I’m not just talking baseball.
That being said, I love numbers, personally.
i agree i mean i think perhaps there has to be a balance between numbers and the fundimentalism of baseball(your eyes) but at the end of the day the argument will always be do you trust your eyes to make a sound busniess decision..even though the stats do not back you up? All im saying is grit is subjective and that should not be a basis to get a player or naught because there is no way to factually prove a guy is gritty or not.
test
I don’t agree with the “clutch” point of Omar’s. It’s not all perception, and there definitely are players that excel when the pressure is high, and some that fold under pressure. There definitely are players that consitently perform and deliver when it maters most.
Yeah but those players are alot rarer than casual fans seem to think and are usually insanely good players to begin with. Guys like Pujols and Ortiz.
Umm ignore casual. I definitely didn’t mean to say most fans who talk about clutch aren’t hardcore fans or something.
Exactly Gina. Good players are good, average players are average and bad players are bad.
However, based on stats as it has been proven over and over again, over a course of time most all player’s clutch stats match their overall numbers. Most GOOD players are good, in the clutch or not. Most BAD players are bad either way. You can count on 1 hand the “Clutch” players that have significant AB’s and their clutch stats are significantly higher than their career norms.
“It’s not all perception, and there definitely are players that excel when the pressure is high, and some that fold under pressure. ”
So the players who are supposedly “clutch” play harder in a supposed “clutch” spot? That’s why I don’t believe all this stuff about players being supposedly “clutch” — that would mean that the guy isn’t playing at his top level at all times.
Is Big Papi “clutch”? How about Josh Beckett? They aren’t exactly having great post-seasons and they are supposed to be the best “clutch” players of our time.
And can you prove that it’s not all perception?
No, you can’t, because it IS all perception.
All gritty team.
Lenny Dykstra CF
Wally Backman 2B
Keith Hernandez 1B
Darryl Strawberry RF
Cliff Floyd LF
Ray Knight 3B
Jerry Grote C
Bud Harrelson SS
Can I get some Piazza at catcher? That man’s mustache was grittier than the entire 2009 Mets team! (I’m kidding)
Why Cliff FLoyd? Just because in 2006 he was on the Mets and they went to the NLCS and now in 2008 he is on the Rays who are a win away from the world series? I don’t get it? Because he is a good club house guy? The guy was hurt in 06 and does not play much in Tampa. He was on the Cubs last year and they folded in the playoffs.
Cliff was a good guy and a good club house guy but how does that make him gritty?
Cliff was not gritty at all. He was often injured and missed games. He was not a “firey” guy. This entire debate makes me gritty.
lol agreed … hey I like Cliff he was a great guy and a good teammate but gritty? I don’t think so. Hurt alot, no fan was upset when the Mets let him walk.
Beltran I say is gritty because he is out there playing everyday. He is banged up and hurt still plays and most of the time we as fans don’t even know the guy is hurt because he does not complain at all. Goes out there everyday and does his job without complaining or excuses. That is gritty to me.
Beltran makes the game look so easy espically in CF that it does not look like he is going all out but he does.
I love Beltran and would be fine with a team of quite guys who just do their job.
How about when he played on essentially one leg during all of 2003, and despite the Mets being out of the race, Floyd’s refusal to go under the knife until Piazza got back, so Mets fans at least had something to watch?
couragous…stupidity(health wise)….but its a choice that cliff made. Again it was a decision…how do you explain grit and what facts would you use to justify grit….anyway you put it, its a subjective analysis and cannot be proven without a shadow of a doubt or a contrary arguement either way.
I remember one year that Cliff had to get surgey at the end of the year but he put that off because they were marginally in the playoff hunt. He was out there hobbling around (literally) because he was one of the two big bats we had in our lineup. I even belive Piazza was out down the stretch but Floyd stayed in.
He became one of my all-time favorites during that strecth.
Cliff=Gritty
the reality is, omar shoulda been fired and what he says and thinks should no longer be relevant to the NY Mets.
The reality is that Omar was not fired, and what he syas and thinks actually is relevant to the NY Mets.
Poor Steve Phillips. Are you still that upset?
I’m not an Omar fan by any means, but look back at the Wilpons recent track record with picking gms, who knows who/what we’d end up with if they fired him.
lol maybe Tony B
Exactly Gina. Sometimes I feel like there are too many kiddies on here who don’t know anything about the mets prior to 2000.
Agreed. Omar isn’t one of the top 5 GMs in the league, but his overall body of work is favorable.
What I want to see this offseason is how much he’s learned from his mistakes. I think last season he got so caught up in trying to make his next John Maine/Oliver Perez/Duaner Sanchez deal that he ended up with a bunch of crappy players…
Houston, here’s a hint… today this site will be all about what Omar is saying.
So if you don’t think what Omar says is relavent, do us and yourself a favor, and stay away.
Houston, you have a problem.
How about Jerry Hairston Jr? That would be a great pickup for the team. Can play every position and has good offensive numbers. Good platoon partner for Murphy if need be in LF or 2B.
that would be a great option for the bench….the guy can play everywhere
i wouldn’t characterize Strawberry as “gritty”
Can we just fire him now? None of his weasel answers provide me with any hope he knows what he is doing
I mean, Carlos Beltran, the last few years down the stretch, has been banged up, but he went out and played outstanding, while being really, really hurt. That’s ‘tough.’
Or does it mean he isn’t tough because he is always getting hurt..?
Lots of people called LoDuca gritty…that “grit”, whatever it may be, still only allowed him to reach based 31% of the time and be awful defensively.
talent > Grit…..every time
Or was it because he was a white guy that showed a lot of emotion?
I agree on LoDuca, but I don’t think it’s quite that cut and dry re: talent > grit.
Robinson Cano should be all-world…he’s got a truckload of talent… but he’s a dog and only reaches base 35% of the time…
Sorry….point being, I wouldn’t want Cano anywhere near my team under ANY circumstances….
true, true…and I agree, for the most part. It really isn’t that cut and dry, but I think Grit is a tad overrated – especially in this town.
Let me ask you this: Given these choices for second base, who would you select. Eckstein or Cano?
Am I basing this on stats or scrappyness?
you’re basing it on who you think gives you the better chance to win…
Eckstein being the stereotypical symbol of grit and Cano being one posters example of talent without talent without intangibles
I would rather have Cano myself but that is based on the fact that Eckencrappy is old and was never good. Cano is young and was good last year.
I just think a guy like Cano who has the talent to be one of the 10 best players in MLB, but lets his attitude get in the way of not being anything close to that can have a very poisonous effect on a clubhouse.
To answer your question, though, I think it depends on what the rest of your roster looks like. On the 2008 Mets, I’d have taken Eckstein. He’s not all that talented, but he brings a dynamic that this team was lacking.
On the 2003-2004 Mets, I’d have been more likely to take Cano.
So what’s all this talk about ‘gritty’? I too think it’s very subjective.
You could never label Manny as ‘gritty’. Look at the game playing he did with the Red Sox just to get traded. But talent? He’s got that in spades. So talented with an attitude problem.
Nails – aka Lenny Dystra – would probably be categorized as ‘gritty’. He was a very good player, not great but he was probably what many would say is ‘gritty’.
And Beltran: you probably wouldn’t label him as ‘gritty’ but very quietly, very talented.
I wouldn’t say Manny has an attitude problem. I think it’s more like he’s insane.
lol-good one.
I still want someone to name me black or latino players who are WIDELY considered gritty. I hate to make this into a race issue as I am white myself but it’s clear it has something to do with it. Eckencrappy is viewed as scrapy and Castillo who before this season had MUCH better numbers yet he no where NEAR gritty.
Juan Pierre, and Jimmy Rollins are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. I have no idea what Shane Victorino is, I think hawaiin maybe, but he’s considered gritty. Tori Hunter maybe?
Rollins is not really considered gritty. Maybe loud but not gritty. Neither is Tori Hunter. I guess you could make a case for Pierre. I would give it to you on Victorino but he does not really count.
hes the flyin hawaian..CMON HES GOTTA COUNT lol…i hate that guy(but secretly want someone like him on my team)
I’m stumped….
it’s a good point.
Grady Sizemore
Cliff Floyd
Coco Crisp
Ray Durham
Is sizemore not white?
Also I don’t really remember him being called gritty.
Sizemore’s Dad is black and his mom is white
He said he was black in an SI feature piece on him entitled “Sizemore matters” which ran last year.
Regarding his grit: He runs into walls without hisitation, hustle his butt off. Mark Shapiro had a talk with him to try to lessen his eagerness to dive and crash walls, because they feared it would shorten his career. I would consider that Gritty.
*hesitation
How about Chone Figgins? Can’t say I’ve seen him play that much, but I think that’s the perception around him
I am not sure he gets enough media attention to be considered gritty. He has the numbers to back up being a good player. I would not mind him being on our 2009 team for sure.
I realize it was getting crowded up there (LOL), but I addressed this earlier in this discussion when you asked me (near the top of the page)…
I saw it. Those are still for the most part NOT players who are considered gritty. The are good fundamental players but do not have a reputation of being gritty. Do you honestly think Beltran has a reputation of being gritty. How many times do you here an announcer say man Vlad is gritty?
That’s all well and good, but I can’t say I base my opinions on players according to what others say about them….
That’s not the point. We were talking about the TERM gritty in professional sports or baseball in particular. That is in large part a term used for smaller white guys that don’t have great stats.
You asked me examples of gritty latino/black players and I gave you some. You, me, or anyone else can help what the popular perception is…stupid as it may be. So I don’t worry about it…
*CAN’T help. My bad….
That’s not what I ask. You are changing the question. Do you think I care what players YOU think are gritty?
Obviously, or you wouldn’t keep replying….
Can Asian players be “gritty”?
Ichiro?
Yes, just not black or latino.
People have given you examples. I’m really not sure why you’re grinding this axe…
None of those players are known to be gritty. I am sorry. They may be hardnosed or fundamental but none are known to be gritty.
I agree with your point TRS86, how about Joey Cora? Yadier Molina?
“None of those players are known to be gritty. I am sorry. They may be hardnosed or fundamental but none are known to be gritty.”
Then why ask for opinions if they don’t fit your paint-by-numbers theories? As I said above, nobody can control other people’s perceptions….so why get caught up in it or limit the discussion to what Tim McCarver or Peter Gammons think?
I am not. I don’t care what they think as far as Omar picking the team. Pick the best players regardless of race. I am just saying that the term Gritty is a false one used to make some white players sound or look better.
I am NOT ASKING who do you think is gritty.
My post was
“I still want someone to name me black or latino players who are WIDELY considered gritty.”
How much more clear do you want me to be with the phrase WIDELY considered?
Whoa now…back up for a second….this is the original question you proposed up top –
“Comment by therealsince86
2008-10-15 13:04:52
That is the point. How many black or latino “gritty” players can you name?”
So the “WIDELY considered” phrase must not be too clear, no? Not to get too deep into semantics here, but I obviously would have responded differently if that’s how you would have phrased the above question.
The main point is that here we both think the “gritty” perception is stupid. The popular perception is that American Idol and Dancing with the Stars are good TV….and I think they are crap. ;)
thank you all for proving my point….grit is a matter of subjective analysis…what one person deems as grit may not be what another deems as gritty. How about we forget that kind of mentality and focus on stuff that cannot be disputed..numbers.
-as for real…i dont think of any i guess universally accepted gritty minority players other than victorino but then again im sure some people would argue he is not gritty..but in any event grit is a matter of personal perception and your own qualifications as to what grit is….how about a debate as to what stats would give the best arguement to what determines a player is gritty or not…
I guess ones that say post season wins at the bottom but crappy all the way through otherwise?
Is it fair to state that it’s much easier to define a “soft” player than a “gritty” player??
gritty is a completely made up thing. it’s a perception, nothing more. notice how different people have completely different players they consider “gritty”.
clutch however, is real. and the way you find those type of players is by watching games, and looking at the following stats:
BA w/ 2 out RISP
BA w/ bases loaded
close and late
september performance
postseason performance
performance against major rivals (if team has one)
manny, jeter, david dejesus, ortiz, chipper, shane victorino, the old version of wright, hudson, furcal, beckett, lowe, johan, mariano, even maine and ollie, etc etc are all legitimately clutch. it can be evaluated, and those are the type of guys we need.
lolol
learn how stats work before you start throwing them out there. you sound like some sportswriter who can’t do anything but spout cliches.
Shinjo? Is that you?