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Omar Minaya has stated on several occasions that the Mets would explore both external and internal options to fill the closer role in 2009. While most of the media has been focusing on those external possibilities, little has been made of the internal ones.
It’s doubtful the Mets would consider moving John Maine to the bullpen, considering that two rotation spots will be open, assuming both Oliver Perez and Pedro Martinez leave via free agency.
Scott Schoeneweis had some success closing for Cincinnati. However, neither he nor Pedro Feliciano would be ideal, as they have trouble retiring right-handed batters. Also, neither are dominating, and despite the Bob Wickmans of the world, I see the Mets choosing someone with more “filthy stuff” or velocity.
If that’s true, then Aaron Heilman, Duaner Sanchez, Joe Smith and Brian Stokes would be the top candidates.
Many fans dislike Heilman, but he has a 96-MPH fastball, a sinking change-up, and a decent slider – from the standpoint of pure “stuff”, Heilman is well-armed for the closer role.
If Sanchez can ever regain the strength and confidence that made him a lights-out setup man in 2006, he’d be the ideal choice.
Smith’s nasty slider and improvement against left-handed hitters makes him a candidate.
Stokes also reaches 96-MPH, but his breaking pitches are inconsistent. He would need to establish one above-average second pitch to be considered.
It appears that Eddie Kunz is being groomed for the role – despite Jerry Manuel’s reluctance to use him last season; Bobby Parnell didn’t show enough in his limited stint to be a clear candidate; Brant Rustich and Brad Holt are darkhorses, but have been impressive at the lower levels.
The bottom line is that it’s not inconceivable to think the Mets will find a closer from within. I’m not sure it would make sense to run auditions in spring training – what can you really learn from a handful of games against questionable competition?
In my mind, the Mets should decide who the closer will be from the outset, and commit to him at least through May – just as a team would with an established fireman. The closer-by-committee concept is unlikely to work with this group – they certainly didn’t respond well to the “setup man by committee” plan in 2008.
I stopped reading at Heilman
thats a shame b/c it only got good after heilman.
Yea.. Heilman should be tarred and feathered and thrown off the QBoro bridge
lmaooo
When you guys get something locked into your little minds, that’s it. There’s no changing it. Heilman was hurt all last year. I’m telling you now, and mark my words, Heilman is going to have a big year next year – whether it’s with the Mets or another team. You’ll see. He has, without a doubt, the best “stuff” of any reliever on the team.
Sure, he’s already blown 3 seasons for us, why not make it 4?
Please…You can put the blame on anyone…How about blaming the offense for being able to tack 1-2 runs off of JEFF SUPPAN in ‘06?
Your hating is tiring.
Settle down, it was a joke.
OBVIOUSLY, there are other people to blame for what has happened to the Mets over the past 3 seasons, but nobody can argue that Heilman has done his fair share of contributing.
The point is I don’t care about how good his “stuff” is, the facts are the facts:
Heilman is a mental midget, he can’t handle being a reliever anymore ESPECIALLY in New York and Omar would be doing a favor for all parties involved by shipping Heilman out so he can try and be a starter elsewhere.
And before you comeback with “Why not give him a shot to be a starter with us”? ONE, the orginazation has stated NUMEROUS times that they don’t believe he can be an effective starter and TWO does anybody really want to see him in a Met uniform every again?
Heilman has been awful, creating numerous “tipping points” this year after which the Mets sagged into mediocrity. This could be a Brad Lidge situation, where there’s a consensus that there’s just too much baggage for the guy to succeed on the same team for whom he’s failed (although Heilman never has been as good as Lidge at his best.) Heilman will profit from a change of scene, and I’m sure he’ll be effective. There’s no use sitting around and waiting for his trade value to go up. Arms are in short supply, and I think teams understand the situation with Aaron. He will be in demand, and thrilled to go to a team where he is needed.
Exactly, Heilman is a lost cause with the Mets. Trade him now for whatever you can get and be done with him.
Addition by subtraction
I like Heilman a lot, in fact, I believe he deserved a shot at starting after a rough first year and then a one hitter in his second year (better start than Pelf had to his career)… however, this goes beyond the numbers and the talent, etc. If this was a video game I might consider Heilman was injured, or that the closer job would inspire him, whatever. But this franchise is very fragile right now. You are going into a new ballpark and have a chance to put the last three years behind you. The fans HAVE to be on board. I know Omar can’t make too many moves thinking only of Joey from Bensonhurst calling the FAN, but you really have to consider it in this case. Fans have to be happy with the closer, in my opinion. Heilman can go 40-40 in saves and in the playoffs the fans will groan after he walks the first guy, and bye bye confidence.
Sadly, it’s time to cut bait
he’s like lidge but not as good i think he will never be the same with the mets. He’s got a chance to come back with someone els but as long as he is wearing a mets uniform he will not be good. Heilman needs to go somewhere else and w need gone and get something back for him
Or, I could have read one post down and seen the exact same thing. Great minds, as they say . . . . ;)
I can not for the life of me see how anyone can defend Heilman. He is a disaster. Jeez guys, come on. Every game he came in, I had to turn the channel. How can anyone defend this guy?
To even suggest Heilman as a closer candidate is an insult to the intelligence of Mets fans everywhere. It wasn’t as if he pitched solidly most of the season except for a blip here and there; he stunk all season long.
Presuming that he has the stuff to be a good big-league pitcher, he needs to find himself for another team.
I never suggested that Mets fans were intelligent. Now you’re just making things up.
Keep writing insightful comments like these and there will be no need to quit your day job.
If Heilman ever pitches again for the Mets I may have to stop supporting the team. The guy is hopeless — at least in NY.
This has to be the best post on this website in months, informative, opinionated and backed by realism instead of outrageous speculation or overreaction…
some other posters here could learn something for this.
TRADE FOR RIVERA AND LIDGE!
PITCH LIDGE IN THE 8TH AND MO IN THE 9TH!!!!!1
consider it done.
you forgot “MAYBE THE YANBKEES WILL TAKE CATILOO OFF OUR HANDS FOR MARIANO)
it was a good post.
IMO…I would like to try someone who wasn’t in the bullpen for most of the year. (exception being the Sept call-ups)
We already know what we have in the arms that played in 2008 and its nothing to be proud of.
Duaner circa 2006 would be perfect as a closer…problem is, are we living in a perfect world?
Parnell and Kunz have good stuff but are very raw. We have no idea what they could provide. I think if we dont go with a trade or FA…then we could have a veteran start as closer while grooming some young guys in AAA and ST to come up and take the closer role in May or June.
If that’s true, they should shut this thing down.
No offense, but more could be learned from actually watching the games.
I doubt Minaya was referring to any of these miserable has-beens who have failed repeatedly over the last two years to hold, close, or otherwise effectively pitch in anything short of a few decent stretches that were pure anomoly. Anyone who would try to rationally present a case for our against any of these clowns – with the possible exception of Smith – simply has not been paying attention.
But then this is the guy who proposed starting games with relievers so starters could go 6 and “close” themselves.
I am pretty sure by ‘internal’ he meant young guys like Kunz, Niese, Parnell, Holt, etc. If they actually try to open next season with Aaron Heilman as closer, CitiField will be torn down faster than Shea.
A-freaking-men. Janish deserves an award for this: a hideously ugly alternate black Mets jersey with “DENIAL” sewn onto the back. The Mets can sift through their dregs as much as they’d like, and there will not be a Major League closer in sight. The “only fix it if it ain’t broke” philosophy is not going to generate any wins. The entire roster needs to be flayed open and gutted. No amount of staring at a spreadsheet is going to (a) squeeze closer-level performance out of Goner Sanchez or (b) turn this collection of mismatched parts into a cohesive, winning organization.
CLOSER FROM WITHIN?
Joe Biden’s response: “Are you joking? Is this a joke?”
at least I have the knicks to watch tonight to distarct me from the mets bullpen issues…
/lights self on fire
fire isiah….(crickets)….fire isiah (crickets)…fire isiah…
I’d be surprised if Heilman is still on the Mets roster come April 2009. He desparately needs a change of scenery and still has some value (for the reasons mentioned in the post).
If the Mets try to go with a “closer from within,” then they have learned nothing from the disastrous end to the 2008 season.
Isn’t “closer from within” what they tried once Wagner went down? And it didn’t work out so well.
This bullpen needs to be overhauled from top to bottom. And anyone who thinks Heilman has the mental makeup to be a closer hasn’t been watching him pitch the past two years.
Well…we didnt really go with closer from within. We gave Heilman a chance and he gave it right up. Then we BROUGHT in Ayala who is suited more for the 7th and 8th inning. Kunz never got a fair shot…nor did Parnell or Stokes. We went with someone with experience rather than someone with upside.
The point is that most of these guys crapped the bed as middle relievers and now we want to consider them to be closers?!?!?!
R u kidding me?
I’m sorry, who are you talking about? Did you read my post or this column?
This was a discussion about what our options are from within. With each player, pros and cons were given. Not once did he say, this is whats going to happen. Its exploring options…good and bad.
And the ones that I was referring to didnt even get a chance to crap the bed as middle relief, not to mention closer. Kunz pitched 2.2 innings (not good innings, but not enough to claim good or bad) Parnell pitched good at times but only 5 Ip. Stokes got a decent shot and his time increased but like this column mentioned, he doesn’t have a good enough second pitch.
Why is Carlos Muniz never even mentioned in these discussions he is the closer(and i think fairly successful) in AAA. He doesn’t have great numbers in bigs but whenever he is with the team he is pitching for his life. When they finally called him up in September, like Kunz, he never pitched. I’m not saying he is the savior but he is a young arm and could at least be an option.
First of all everything I’ve read about Kunz is that he’s nowhere near ready to be effective on the major league let alone as a closer. Parnell is intriguing…..as maybe a 7th inning guy but a CLOSER? I don’t think so, same with Stokes. You can explore these options all you want, point is none of these guys are going to be the closer in 2009 nor should they be.
@ biff- i think muniz is an option for the pen but most likely he will be fighting it out with parnell and kunz for a job..(or at least they should be)
@ sal- agreed. I dont think kunz is ready to be a stand alone closer yet and parnell is interesteing. I absolutly agree none of these guys should be the closer in 09.
i agree
i’m not anointing Muniz the new closer, just saying i’d like to see what Muniz can do as a consistent part of the pen. I’d rather see some new faces in the BP then the same old retreads, yet Muniz is never even talked about.
Biff, thanks for bringing up Muniz … I admit I totally forgot about him. Kind of like Jerry Manuel in September.
My bad — throw him into the ring as a possibility.
Seriously, even suggested that Aaron Freaking Heilman could be the Mets 2009 closer should be grounds for termination.
Matt, lets get on this.
Don’t see Heilmann doing it here, but conceptually he could go elsewhere and have a big year as a closer. Preferably someplace like Pitt with no fans, coverage, or pressure!
middle relief is a bigger problem than closer IMO anyway. That killed them last year more than the last guy blowing games in the 9th 9though that happened a few time too!) heck, half the closer opps blown would have been mop up duty if the rest of the BP hadn’t spit up a big lead.
Most of the guys you mention, mixed and matched correctly, could end up forming a really good pen next year. So conceivably, one of them could emerge to take the coveted “closer” role, still one of the most overrated titles in BB!
I don’t think itis horrible if, in case they don’t land a true proven closer, to put the best possible pen together, full of strong arm guys, and let them fight it out with the winner taking the 9th. And it really wouldn’t surprise me if the closer changes at some point during the year.
Again, the offense can score plenty of runs. The SP, at least what is left of it, can provide stong starts. Get a middle relief core that can hold the big lead, and the closer can become the maytag repair man!
So the solution to fixing our horrible bullpen (the same bullpen that has p*ssed away two consecutive seasons) is to take a guy from said horrible bullpen and make him the closer.
How exactly does that make any sense?
This “opinion” piece is asinine.
All the relievers mentioned in it had their fair share of chances to close out games last season and guess what? None of them were successful at it, by any stretch of the imagination.
The Mets would be wisest to rebuild their bullpen from scratch by jettisoning everyone except for Joe Smith and perhaps Feliciano and replacing the other members.
If a group in any other employment situation fails to accomplish a task after two consecutive years, it’s time to hire a new crew.
Kunz, Stokes, Parnell, Holt, Rustich (all in the article) did not get a fair chance. Not saying they should have…but theres more potential with these few than the ones we went with.
In fairness…this article discusses options…whether good or bad…thats something reasonable people decide with.
It’s called playing the game. Omar has no intentions of having a guy from within be the closer. He is just trying to show he has other options to Krod. That is why the junk about Fuentes was leaked and why the trade news is coming out.
thank you real….i dont know why we are putting soo much weight to leaked news and omars “opinions”. 95% of stuff we hear from here until st next year will be pure bs for leverage purposes…
And if you’re right…then thats exactly what he should do.
Obviously we agree he is doing that. And its the right approach. You don’t claim “oh man i want Krod, no matter what”
ok no surprise my post got erased…
to sum up i guess
the closer needs to come from outside
we need to sign new arms for the bullpen starting with juan cruz
i dont trust anybody we currently have in the pen for a closing job.
kunz and parnell should fight their way into the pen in st next year.
Dirty, the only problem I have with cruz is that you’re forfeiting your first rounder for a setup guy. I know TRS86 wants Cruz to be a closer, in which case it’s more justifiable, but for a setup man? That’s a steep price…
don’t forget most of the closers in BB are either failed starters, former MR guys, young guns with a live arm plucked from obscurity, etc. And every year, some guys come out of relative nowhere and get tons of saves.
Besides, being a 7th/8th inning guys is, in many ways, harder. Coming in with men on base, pitching to the heart of a lineup, etc.
It really isn’t that hard to come in to start an inning (so obviously noone on base!) with a three run lead to “save: a game.
it’s too early for an april fool’s day post
The only possible closer from within would be maine, and that is “only” provided they pick up at least two quality starters whethers its free agency or via a trade….
I saw that the Nats non-tendered Chad Cordero. There is no doubt in my mind that Omar will bring him and give him a chance. I’m pretty sure that Chad will take it since Omar drafted him, the Mets are a contender, and he will get a chance to stick to his old team.
what does non-tendered mean? Is chad available…
if the mets could grab cordero and stick him in as the 8th inning guy, along with an experienced closer like K-rod or Fuentes, then you’ve got a great BP. do it!
Cordero also had surgery for a torn labrum that ended his season. He won’t be the same pitcher.
Hot Stove, believe it or not, I just had labrum surgery on my shoulder. The first few days/weeks are a PITA, but now I’m 4 weeks in and I’m getting near full range of motion back… and I don’t have access to the medical staff of a professional team, nor the income level to afford 24×7 care. I don’t think the shoulder will be an issue come April.
(Then again, I’m not trying to pitch for a living either…)
Heilman a closer? Surely you can’t be serious.
Is Janish serious with the Heilman talk? Is he secretly a Phillies fan and doesnt want the Mets in the playoffs next year? You gotta be kidding me. This team has to get rid of the players who played the biggest roles in their collapse. Good bye Castillo. Good bye Heilman. I would love to say good bye to Scho and Feliciano and just about everyone except Smith and Ayala in the bullpen. Please.
I guess not many people actually read his post.
“From the standpoint of pure “stuff”, Heilman is well-armed for the closer role.”
That is actually a true statement. The problem is…Heilman possesses many poor qualities in addition to his “stuff.”
Janish wasn’t championing him as the closer
even a healthy heilman isn’t a great choice. His K rate dropped three straight years before this one, and his mistakes are leaving the yard. All of our guys suffer from bad splits; Sanchez and Heilman being healthy would do wonders, but we’ve got to kind that high K/low walk guy that can pitch to both sides. Wagner’s reeeeal hard to replace.
Between Ayala, stokes, Smith, sanchez, and either feliciano or Scho, we are OK for the 6th – 8th. No way Heilman is on this team in 09. Chad Cordero is not a got fit for closer, but could be a nice set-up guy.
“Between Ayala, stokes, Smith, sanchez, and either feliciano or Scho, we are OK for the 6th – 8th”
How can you say that? NONE of these guys could get an out at the end of the season. I would keep Stokes and Smith, but that’s about it. Isn’t Ayala a free agent? I hate to say it, but Sanchez is done.
Unreal. Aaron Freakin Heilman??? Isnt the ideal closer someone who is suppossed to be EMOTIONALLY TOUGH? Aaron Heilman is the epitamy of “shook”. HE DOES NOT HAVE THE EMOTIONAL GUTS TO BE A CLOSER! Sorry for the caps but the inner kid who’s pi$$ed off came out of me. IMO, the man should have only been a starter. Obviously we all know how that turned out. I can see a few lower tier teams wanting his services as a starter. I think a change of scenery for him and the Mets would be ideal.
while everything you said is true…you missed the point of the article.
Starz who was that directed to?
to a bunch of people here.
I’m just saying what you said is true…but the article was just saying that Heilman has very good stuff…good enough to be an effective closer…the problem is when you combine that with the traits you discuss, Heilman must be taken out of the equation.
I was just trying to explain that this article was more about what are our options IF we went from within.
There’s zero percent chance that any of these guys will the 2009 closer which makes this article pointless.
Now if this were about any of these guys being effective middle relievers then we would have something to talk about.
Thanks Starz ….
For those who misconstrued, and are wondering what my opinion is re: Heilman, it’s that he should not pitch out of the Mets bullpen ever again. Though, I would like to see him given a shot as a starter before dumping him for garbage — however that discussion is for another day.
It wasn’t me who suggested the Mets use internal options, it was Omar Minaya. My wonderment at such a statement led to the article.
Omar was obviously bs’ing, get a clue, this article was a waste of time.
You can put it in the books that we’ll have an experienced closer next year either via FA or trade and not Carlos Muniz or Aaron Freaking Heilman.
my understanding from the information given in the post was basically selling the point that a closer from within is improbable if not impossible.
my statement about Muniz wasn’t that he should be the closer. it was just that i’d like to see him pitch, because as of yet he hasn’t gotten a shot. And instead of handing the ball to people like Sho or Heilman again and again, give some new blood a chance maybe we’ll be surprised.
We have seen Muniz pitch and he hasn’t been anything special so why are we still clamoring for him? Because he closed in AAA? So what
Say it ainy so Joe.
I cant imagine them using Heilman too often he has given up the big hit and after last year no way
Not a very good article. Why even discuss guys like Scho or Heilman as an internal option when there is NO chance they will be our closer in 2009 – therefore NOT making them an internal option. They are not an option at all.
We’ll do it LIVE!!!
Closer from within with this current group?
Why wasn’t the subhead for the article: “Throwing 2009 Away”
Another guy to “consider” is Niese.
He’s a young guy who throws a lot of curve balls, certainly hasn’t shown that he can pitch 200 innings, and may fade towards the end of the season like a lot of 1st year pitchers have a tendency to do.
Put him in the closer’s role and let him be an Adam Wainright type of guy, who can fool hitters with a big hook late in games.
hotstove…i agree 100% with what your saying. he could be filthy as a 1-2 inning guy. prob is we will have 2 pitchers we would need to sign
i agree in theory, although if the mets are up 3-2 going into the bottom of the 9th with some combination of rollins, utley, burrel (for arguments sake if he stays on the phils), and howard coming up, is everyone confident niese can do it at this stage in his career?
that said, its a great way to think outside of the box, and i hope that omar does explore all possibilities for a bullpen and closer
Nice idea … good comparison to Wainwright. Hadn’t thought of Niese because I figured he’s penciled in to compete for the #5 starter role.
it makes me ill to think of arron of scot coming into a came with a 2 run lead in the ninth inning. the fact that they can even be in the same sentence with the word closer disturbs me. (unless the sentence is “arron or scot should never be the closer”) i understand that all possibilities need to be explored, but come on! these guys made my blood boil game after game.
i hope the mets can pick someone up for the closer role, and that dauner gets his game back (which i still beleive can happen) With a good closer, a good duaner, and joe smith, we should be all right.
One of the factors that you clearly left out is the mental aspect of closing games. There are pitchers in the game who have filthy stuff, but are not groomed for the 9th inning mentally. Any pitcher in baseball will tell you that the 9th inning is different from any other inning.
To be effective in the 9th inning is not who can strike out the batter with the filthiest stuff, it’s a matter of who can get the last outs of a game in a pressure situation to secure a win.
Last year, there was only one person on the Mets who had the mentality of the 9th inning and that was Eddie Kunz. Whether he was major league ready or not is debatable. But clearly, Ayala did not have the 9th inning mentality. Nor did anyone else who was on the “Closer by Committee”
Brian Fuentes was in the closer role in Colorado before he lost his job to Manny Corpas because Fuentes was ineffective in the 9th inning. But he was effective in the 8th inning. Armando Benitez had filthy stuff, but he was a head case.
The Mets will need to be very creative, but need someone who may not have the nastiest stuff, but has the toughest mindset going in and when pressure build, he can get out of trouble. I would not mind giving a shot to Parnell. I think the leading candidate has to be Kunz because he has been groomed for the mental toughness of the 9th inning.
Outstanding points. In my defense, I was trying to keep to a 300-word limit (and it went to 400). If I had another 200 words or so, the toughness thing likely would have been included.
Thanks for bringing it up. More fun to discuss here anyway.
Also thanks for bringing up the fact that Fuentes was NOT Colorado’s closer down the stretch of 2007. Memories are short when situations become desperate.
Here is my take on the Heilman situation and bullpen:
No Pedro and no Ollie = 20.5 million in payroll from ‘08 (or thereabouts)
sign CC Sabathia at 22 million a year or plus 1.5 million from ‘08
5th starter = Heilman…his job to lose to niese
sign Fuentes, resign Ayala to 1 year, bring back Stokes, Smith, Schowenweis, Feliciano and a get a hard throwing righty for the pen.
C.C.
Santana
Pelfrey
Maine
Heilman/Niese
Give me a better 1-4…
Don’t disrespect Santana by putting CC above him.
Zambrano/Harden/Dempster/Lilly
Webb/Haren/Scherzer/Unit (if resigned)
Daisuke/Lester/Beckett/Masterson
Garza/Shields/Kazmir/Price
Lackey/Santana/Saunders/Weaver
But I get what you’re saying. That’s also contingent on Maine regaining form and learning to pitch past the 5th inning without his arm falling off.
I really like Santana’s ideas here a LOT.
I just think maybe try to trade for Putz instead of signing Fuentes. Then we would have a serious staff.
And I think we would potentially have the best rotation in the majors. A*suming Maine can keep his arm on.
One route that I haven’t heard suggested is sign a TYPE B or even C free agent starting pitcher and convert them into a closer. Essentially pull what the Red Sox did in 1997 or 1998 by turning a solid #3 starter – Tom Gordon – and turning him into a closer/reliever. Gordon essentially had a second career as a result. Now it is harder to do that in New York in 2008 but I also think that financially speaking (and I don’t think the Mets want to spend a lot of money this offseason, but what do I know) that it is at least an interesting suggestion.
A name that pops out that I would be intrigued to see as a closer is Randy Wolf. Wolf has always pitched well against the Mets in New York or away. He has a terrific strikeout ratio that I think would be intriguing in short relief. Obviously the #1 problem is that he is going to be offered starter money by other teams.
But someone like Wolf, Brad Penny, or even (though he is injury plagued) Mark Prior would make an intriguing experiment as a closer. I know, I know on Penny that he has pitched terribly in New York.
Just saying, nobody expected the Red Sox to get 45 straight saves from an inexperienced closer like Gordon. It could be intriguing.
I agree but the fans won’t allow for an experiment to go on and you know that. If the Mets were a team just on the rise and you want to take a chance with something like that fine.
This is a team that needs to be in the playoffs next year it is that simple.
They don’t have room to experiment because the media and more importantly the fans just wont have the patience for that.
We need a proven for the 9th it is that simple.
Well at least we agree it is “outside the box” thinking. You know it’s funny because before A.J. Burnett won 18 games this year I always felt that with his makeup he could be a dominant closer.
I know the mental makeup of a closer is different than a starter, but I also feel that there could be a gem in the mix of Type B and C starters that could be a Tom Gordon a la 1998.
But you are right in terms of the New York fans and media taking Omar to town for attempting that.
I had the same thoughts but with Brandon Duckworth. He’s not cutting it as a starter, but what about converting him to a reliever? He’s a Type C and would be pretty cheap.
Another name I would add to starter turned closer is Matt Morris. You can sign him for nothing, he has pitched a full season in 2000 as a relief pitcher (in big spots) and obviously has a career of success. He may not have the stuff he had in 2003 but who knows if he gets stronger pitching 1-2 innings instead of 5-6. He could reinvent himself as a closer.
lol I thought it to be really funny when he mentioned Scott Schoeneweis lol that was great.
Um I give the Mets finding a closer from within about a 2% chance.
I rather see them sign David Weathers to close then give the same guys who could not even get out of the 7th and 8th innings last year without blowing it a chance in the 9th in 2009.
These guys were so bad that some would come in give up a hit and be yanked lol.
A poor article. There was simply no point of talking about guys like Scho, Feliciano, and Heilman that obviously won’t have a chance. Joe, you say this about Heilman…
“Many fans dislike Heilman, but he has a 96-MPH fastball, a sinking change-up, and a decent slider – from the standpoint of pure “stuff”, Heilman is well-armed for the closer role.”
That’s nice. From the pure standpoint of stuff, I would also say that Oliver Perez is the closest pitcher to Sandy Koufax I’ve ever seen. Does that make Perez the second coming of Sandy? Not only no, but HECK no. The same is true of Heilman. The whole point of Heilman even being considered a closer is so ludicrous that it doesn’t deserve mention.
Also, Joe seemingly forgets that Brian Stokes throws a a pretty good circle changeup. While it’s true that he has problems with consistent breaking pitches, that doesn’t mean he’s a one-pitch pitcher. Right now he only throws the change to lefties, but if he works on it hard enough, I would imagine he could mix it with his slider pretty well. And it would be easier than working on his breaking pitches, since the pitch is already of better quality.
Smith still posted too high an OBPA against LH hitters for anyone to seriously consider him for the role. Kunz and Parnell aren’t ready, and I really think mentioning them as serious closer candidates borders on the silly.
Joe just kinda rambled on, stating the obvious (and not quite correct with regards to Stokes and Smith) before coming to his well-written one-paragraph conclusion. Joe, I have NOTHING against you. But this post was VERY, VERY lackluster and just seemed like filler.
Thanks for the kind words. Yes what I do here is provide filler, and it’s usually too obvious and lackluster for the more highbrow individuals such as yourself. But, sometimes it’s nice to change things up a bit. We don’t want Matt developing carpal tunnel, do we?
I didn’t forget that Stokes throws a circle change, nor a slider, nor a curveball. Problem is that he’s not shown consistency with any of those pitches at the ML level. His 7.07 ERA in 2007 was telling of that. And as I rambled in the article, if Stokes can concentrate on one of those pitches and throw it consistently, he would be a fine candidate.
What was incorrect about Smith? Does he not throw a slider or did he not improve against lefties?
BTW did you ever see Sandy Koufax pitch? I think a more appropriate comparison to Ollie is John Candelaria. Ah jeez …. there I go rambling again …
“I didn’t forget that Stokes throws a circle change”
So why didn’t you mention it?
“Problem is that he’s not shown consistency with any of those pitches at the ML level.”
Actually, his circle change was his ONLY consistent pitch with Tampa Bay. His fastball had a tendency to flatten out. Remember when we first got him and some guys down in Tampa said he was going to be the second coming of Mota for that exact reason? But, as we saw, his fastball was quite consistent this year.
“What was incorrect about Smith? Does he not throw a slider or did he not improve against lefties?”
The latter. He didn’t improve against lefties. Smith posted a .320/.433/.460 mark against lefties this year. In 2007, he posted a .298/.411/.447 mark. Of course, he got much better again righties, but that’s his job and we’re not discussing it.
Did I ever see Koufax pitch? Not in person, but I’ve seen many of the videos and my father watched him (and he concurs with me, also pointing out that Aaron Heilman has a superficial resemblance to Dean Chance). But I DID see Candelaria and while there was the similarity of his repertoire (especially the slow curve/hard curve), he was a control pitcher that didn’t have the “effectively wild” approach that Koufax used and Ollie now uses.
Damn, you got me on the Smith stats. Who the heck is the editor that let this thing get through? Regis – you’re fired!
Maybe the fact Jerry Manuel tried not to allow “crossover” matchups had something to do with ineffectiveness across the board for Smith, Feliciano, Scho, etc.? Chicken or the egg …
As for the Koufax/Perez comparison, I was thinking that Koufax threw an overhand curve and a 97+MPH fastball, while Ollie works from the side and relies just as much on a hard slider as the slow curve, and throws a fastball that rarely gets over 93. Candy Man had similarly sweeping stuff from the side in his early years. Or maybe it was the Pirates uniform that makes me compare the two.
From your, and your dad’s, POV, I can see what you mean.
I am more confident in Heilman being our closer than Brian Stokes. Any day of the week. I think a thing to keep an eye on is Sanchez. He had a rough year that I would attribute to fatigue. let’s not forget, he missed about a year and a half. If he can get back that velocity and stamina (I think Jerry and Willie overworked him this year, but it could pay dividends next year), he could be a darkhorse candidate to be the closer.
Jeez, lighten up.
The Mets know they need a proven closer. This is a team that if they are not in playoffs next year then you really could see major changes and I am talking about Reyes, Wright, Beltran traded away type of changes.
This team has to be in the playoffs next year and they can not take a chance on a closer.
It is not like taking a chance on a 2nd baseman or a 4th or 5th starter where if it does not work out you can get someone else.
As the Mets showed in 08 the closer postion is very important and they can take a chance or roll the dice in 09.
They need a proven guy either threw free agency or trade.
There is no agrument that you can make against this becasue if the Mets take a chance with an unproven guy and it blows up in there face it will be the same fans coming back on here screaming for Omar’s head and why didnt you sign F-Rod or trade for Ryan.
This team needs a proven guy plain and simple.
John Maine should be the closer. I know it creates another spot in the rotation but lets not get carried away. We can find a fourth starter for less money than K Rod or Fuentes will cost. Maine may never consistently get out of the 6th inning. He has the mental makeup for sure and the stuff. His splits are pretty even against lefties and righties and did I mention HE HAS THE MENTAL TOUGHNESS TO DO THE JOB IN NY. If you believe Pelfrey is the real deal-a quality #2 starter-and I do, then a rotation with Pelfrey and Johan at the top is pretty damn good. Pedro, Ollie, and Duque coming off the books saves around 27 million next year, if you pocket the 12 million plus you’d have to pay for K Rod/ Fuentes, thats nearly 40 million to spend on 2-3 starters plus bullpen help.
Johan
Big Pelf
Lowe
Looper/Perez/Sheets/Wolf/Pedro/Zito(by trade with cash included)
Niese/Parnell
Maine
J.Affeldt
D. Reyes
Sanchez
Smith
Kuhns
D. Oliver
Every time I look at it I see a better club with Maine as the closer and innings guys (prefer looper or even Zito as #4) in the rotation. and fans would give Maine a much longer leash than Fuentes and when K Rod breaks down it isn’t our problem.
GM019, you make very good points but your 4 and 5 starts are very suspect. Cmon, Looper? Zito? Randy Wolf?
I won’t disagree with you there. Most of them are a litte risky, but i guess thats what you get looking for a fourth starter. But actually, Looper pitched 199 innings last year and has turned into a decent starter. Lefties still hit him hard which is why his era was above 4.00 and the reason he never made it as a closer. But as a starter it looks like he’ll give you about 200 innings and keep you in the game. He’s Steve Trachsel with better stuff and way less of an a##hole. He’s only a type B and honestly, if we ended up prefering Maine in the rotation I believe Looper would would accept a move to the bullpen and be just as effective as he was in his first stint in NY-by which I mean not good but probably no worse than Fuentes but still a whole lot cheaper. I like loopers pricetag and versatility. And Zito? I guess I just figure the worst is probably over with him. He did have a decent second half last year and he could probably benefit from a change of scenery. If he can keep his era under 4.5 and eat his usual 220 innings I think he’s a fine fourth starter. The best part is I think you could dump Castillo and get enough cash back to to make his net cost in the 10 per year range. He’s still a lefty horse, relatively young, a former Cy Young Winner with playoff experience.Giants hate him and would leap at the chance to free up any portion of the contract owed to him. Its the kind of “creative” move I hope Omar is thinking of. In fact, you could easily fit Lowe(15 mill), Zito (11 mill) and Looper (6 Mill) into the budget and potentially get 1000 innings out of your starting 5 while Niese provides insurance at AAA.
HTSB, I agree with everything you wrote. The idea of getting Manny, Holliday etc is pointless if we cannot FINISH THE GAME! Our offense was not the problem last. Sure, we had dry spells and left men on base but thats baseball, a game of failure. To even consider having someone from the 2007-2008 Ments bullpen close a game makes me shutter and look forward to the 2009 Giants.
Priority this offseason:
1.Bullpen
2.SP
3.2B (If I see Castillo Opening Day 2009 manning 2nd base Im going to throw my cat out the window)
4.LF
Agree but I still think they need another bat in LF. I would really like to see Murphy at 2nd base. IF you keep Church and Schinder that is a very lefty heavy lineup.
I think you need a solid righty bat to play LF. I would love Manny but if you don’t want to spend to get him … then I am thinking trade for one.
Tatis was a great story last year but I still see him coming off the bench and filling in.
CC is in the 25 mil range
KRod is in the 15 mil range. leaves money for a guy like Jon Garland
All three are under 30 and would be good signs
$25MM for CC? That is rough.
That is at least one rumor. The Yankees will overpay. to get him.
Oh, they definitely will. THey are in a much different spot than us though. They have a great need for an ace starting pitcher. They don’t already have $20MM per tied up in one other pitcher. While I love the idea of a 1-2 punch of Santana and Sabathia, I’m not sure I would spend $25MM on Sabathia. I would spend that money on bullpen, offense, and middle of the rotation guys. I’d bring back Ollie at $12MM per.
No way the Yankees are going to lose out to the Mets for an ace two yrs in a row. Hanky Baby said it himself, he’s breaking the piggy bank.
Easy, guy. It’s Hanky-Poo.
Yes, excuse me.
Jon Garland, Jon Garland, Jon Garland….
This guy had an ERA of 4.90, a WHIP of 1.50, threw less than 200 innings, and had less than 100 Ks.
Why is everyone so infatuated with this piece of crap?
The more and more I think about it the more and more I like Randy Wolf for a #4 or #5 spot in the rotation OR converting him into a reliever/closer (if he would be willing to do so). The only negative (other than age) is that he is apparantly a West Coast Guy.
(vomiting wild and uncontrollably):
Randy Wolf couldn’t be my closer if my only other option was Mel Rojas. The only cool thing about him is what the Phillies fans use to do wiht the Wolf Pack and that only came in 2nd place to Padilla’s Flotillas.
LMAO.. Illbe doing the same thing if I see the cripple out there at 2nd.
I’d rather see Carlos Baerga at 2B.
ouch.. The man ran funnier than LoDuca, and thats saying something.
I think Juan Rincon should be our closer next year.
I’ve always liked Rincon as well and feel that he could be a dominant NL reliever. He is actually a legit possibility.
Lol, at your vomiting on Randy Wolf. He isn’t bad at all. He’s in fact the definition of mediocre (except against the Mets where he is dominant). But what do you think of my idea of taking a Type B free agent starter LIKE a Wolf and potentially signing them as a reliever/closer. That’s where I believe some of the closers/future strong middle relievers exist. Former starters that are in need of reinventing themselves such as a Matt Morris or potentially a Brad Penny (not happening).
I don’t like Randy Wolf as my closer. I could see him as a long relief man, as his stuff reminds me a little of Darren Oliver. He is a good pitcher, don’t get me wrong. But I would never feel confident with him trying to close out a game. If we go for him, I think it should either be as a 5th starter or long reliever.
Other things I would consider are re-signing Ollie. Possibly Pedro in the bullpen. Wonder if he would even be open to the idea of closing games. That would be fun, at the very least. Maybe on a 1-year deal with a club option?
Darrnen Oliver should be brought back he is going to be a free agent
Oliver is a Type A. He’s not coming here as much as we would like to have him back.
How about this for a thought….trade for Kaz Matsui and Carlos Lee?
As bad as Matsui was when he was here, I would take him back in a heartbeat. At least he tried when he was here. I do think he has some ability as well.
There’s always ‘10.
Hey Joe, I got a question for you, did you watch ANY Mets games this year? Closer from within, Aaron Heilman, the closer for next year is NOT on this team right now.
No, my parents don’t have a TV in the basement. But I listened to some of the games on the radio and I read all the stats in the Bill James Abstract. Why, what did I miss?
EV, got a question for you, did you read ANY of the post other than the sentence about Heilman? Because about a dozen other pitchers were mentioned in addition to Heilman.
Oh, there’s also something in there about Omar Minaya saying the closer could come from within. I hope that’s clear — It would be wrong for me to get credit for one of Omar’s ideas.
Joe, the bullpen STINKS and needs a MAJOR OVERHAUL that’s what you missed. I like Smith and Stokes, they are basically the only two guys I would keep but neither is a closer. If Omar is STUPID enough to not fix this bullpen then we are doomed and if in your senario Heilman, Smith, Stokes, or Sanchez, are the closer than you might as well hand the NL East flag to the Phillies in spring training
Apparantly, this guy didn’t watch Heilmen and Sanchez pitch in 2008. The former is lost cause who might do well someplace else and something is clearly wrong with the latter.
Dead on right.
Joe, the bullpen STINKS and needs a MAJOR OVERHAUL that’s what you missed. I like Smith and Stokes, they are basically the only two guys I would keep but neither is a closer. If Omar is STUPID enough to not fix this bullpen then we are doomed and if in your senario Heilman, Smith, Stokes, or Sanchez, are the closer than you might as well hand the NL East flag to the Phillies in spring training
Again, not my idea. Take your message to Flushing and hand it to Mr. Minaya. You’re wasting your energy on me.
Joe, how am I wasting my time? I was responding to your opinion, which last time I checked involves at some level having an idea. So, according to you, we basically bring the whole pen back right:? No changes are needed.
OK, I’ll try this again, but type more slowly.
Omar Minaya is the one who stated that the Mets could find their closer from within.
In other words, Omar Minaya said that the closer for the Mets could come from inside the organization.
Or, put another way, Omar Minaya was quoted as saying that the Mets’ 2009 closer could turn out to be a current member of the New York Metropolitans Baseball Club.
In addition, I never said you were wasting your time. I said it was a waste of energy to argue with me. Your beef is with Mr. Minaya (see above).
I will type this for you EVEN MORE SLOWLY. My beef isn’t with Omar because the offseason hasn’t even started yet and because I believe he will finally do the right thing in regards to the bullpen and not only change most of it, but bring in a closer. I’m trying to understand how anybody could possibly say after this past year that Heilman or Sanchez could be next years closer. Omar, didn’t say that, YOU DID!!!!!. Again, did you watch the Mets bullpen in the second half of the season?
I think we’ve established that I listened to the games on the radio.
You can type as slowly as you want, it’s still not helping you understand that Omar Minaya is the person who suggested that the Mets’ 2009 closer could come from within the organization.
I know who makes the decisions Joe, but according to you, Heilman and Sanchez are two of the internal candidates for the closer role. My question again is how the heck could you possibly pick Heilman and Sanchez as close candidates from what happened this past year? I think you need to get a stronger radio signal in mom’s basement for next years games.
That’s absolutely correct — Heilman and Sanchez ARE possible candidates for the closer role, among current pitchers in the organization. Another ten or so pitchers were listed in the article as possibilities as well.
Apparently my “dirty dozen” came from the fact that the Mets simply don’t have many more realistic candidates.
If you want to know why I picked Heilman and Sanchez among those dozen, it’s because Heilman is one of only three relief pitchers left in the organization who can reach 96 MPH. The reason Sanchez was included was because there wasn’t a better setup man in baseball in 2006, and — as stated in the post — IF he can regain that form, he’d make a good candidate.
Now, may I ask you: how is it that negative past history can remove a pitcher from candidacy, but positive past history can’t include him? In other words, why do you base 2008 performance as the sole indicator of Heilman’s and Sanchez’s possibilities for the future? Why are 2006 and 2007 thrown out of the equation?
Here’s something to chew on: Brian Stokes posted a 7.07 ERA in 2007. Based on your method of predicting the future, Stokes should have stunk in 2008 as well. Grant Balfour had a 7.66 ERA last year — was that indicative of his remarkable season this year with the Rays? Many Mets fans thought in 2006 that Heath Bell was just as bad as Heilman, and all he did the next year was establish himself as one of the best setup men in baseball. I could go on for days with examples if you’d like — I have no word counts for the comment section.
Joe, honestly I don’t care about two years ago. Heilman and Sanchez STUNK this year, that’s what matters to me, both need to get out of here. By the way two years ago wasn’t it Heilman that gave up that big homer to Molina? So Heilman hasn’t got the job done before. I don’t care if Heilman throws 96, 97, he needs to GO.
I am one to say Heilman was a disaster last year. He also gave HUGE homers over the 2 years before that (not only game 7) even though he was one of the top relievers in the game. He has had so many daggers for homers, its unbelievable. WIth that said………..
The only thing I have to say about Heilman is trade him for value if not, keep him – he has options. There is 0 and I mean ZERO reason to dump an arm like Heilman for nothing. I would rather have him in the minors as a call up than shipping him for some AAA player who will never see the light of day.
Makes NO sense to just dump him.
Aaron Heilman has shown some instances where he could shut down hitters outright, his stuff on paper (sometimes on the field) can be wicked therein lies the dilemma which is Aaron Heilman, that being said, considering the overall picture which of course includes the HR given up to the IMMORTAL YADIER MOLINA and subsequent HRS ,it is my humble opinion that for the sake of every true Met Fan’s SANITY and that of Aaron Heilman we trade him as soon as a viable trade presents itself.
Heilmann is just better suited to be a starter. IMHO of course.
to paraphrase yogi: 50% of pitching is 90% mental.