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Today is the final day for MLB teams to notify the Commisioner’s Office of players who will be eligible for the Rule V Draft, which will be held on Dec. 11.
In an old article for Baseball America, Alan Schwarz wrote:
“Major league teams must protect players on their 40-man rosters within three or four years of their original signing. Those left unprotected are available to other teams as Rule 5 picks… Players who were 18 or younger on June 5 preceding the signing of their first contract must be protected after four minor league seasons. Players 19 and older must be protected after three seasons.”
For other rules and information, check out Mets Minor League Blog, where Toby Hyde suggests only Shawn Bowman be protected, for fear of losing him in the draft to another team.
According to Hyde, Mike Carp is not yet eligible.
In 1999, the Marlins picked up Johan Santana in the Rule V Draft, and then traded him to the Twins on the same day. Doh!
The Mets have done an awful job in the Rule 5 (its not the Rule V) draft in recent years, losing Lenny DiNardo and Jesus Flores.
Lenny DiNardo? He had about 2 good months in 2007 and that was it.
Rule 5, or Rule V. Whats the difference, they both mean the same thing Cactus!!!!
Which would be 2 more good months then Jesus Flores has had…..Seriously, I’ve never seen fans get so worked up over someone who has a Sub 700 OPS.
Omar protected a 59 yr. old Julio Franco on the 40-man rather than a 21 yr. old catching prospect. Just look at the 40-man from 2 years ago that someone posted below, and whether or not you think Flores is going to amount to a lit, someone please tell me that wasn’t a horrible move by Omar.
So Minaya didn’t protect a catcher that has hit .252/.301/.387 in 481 Career AB with really poor Defense?
Would have been a nice guy to have in the system, but he would have deservingly been in AAA last season behind Schneider and Castro (As they’re both better).
Hard to get worked up over that.
Yea…Jesus Flores is a budding star. Gimme a break. He is a catch and throw catcher who just happened to look like an All Star against us in 2007. Let’s stop crying about this, please. The only reason he touched a Major League roster is because the Nats got him.
You don realize he put up better numbers then Schneider or Castro, and cost about 4.5 million less?
It was a terrible move by Omar.. there is no defense for it.
I put up better numbers that Schnieder and Castro too
he put up better numbers than Castro?
Well I’d rather the Nats took you instead of Flores also.. but they didn’t
The fact that Bowden then got Omar to take Schneider and his 5 million off his hands.. to fill the spot Flores left.. well that is just beyond laughable.
Castro:
.245 7 24
Salary 2 Million
Schneider:
.257 9 38
Salary 5 Million
Flores:
.256 8 HRs 59 RBIs
Salary .400K
Any questions?
Ummm, yes. May I borrow your crystal ball?
You don’t need a crystal ball to know what Schenider is gonna do.. nor do you need one to see the ability of kid like Flores.
In fact.. GMs are supposed to get paid to recgonize and know these things.. that’s their job.
Please don’t use the Flores, Lindstrom, or Henry Owens arguments. If you want to bash Omar, point to the Castillo contract. That’s all you need to do.
There aren’t many catchers that have the offensive ability of Mike Piazza. Sorry people. Jesus Flores may end up being a starting catcher for someone down the line, but at the time, Francisco Pena was the guy the organization had in mind for a long term prospect. Bashing Minaya is so easy if you just point to the Castillo deal. But be careful. If you are going to bash him for that deal, you have to give him credit for getting Ollie, Maine, Beltran, Johan, etc.
Was Pena in the organization before Flores was “drafted”?
Also stilltheewn Flores had like 157 more at bats than Castro, I would hope he would have more homers and rbis.
Castro
obp: 312
slug: 441
Flores
obp: .296
slug: .402
not that I’m saying I wouldn’t rather have Flores on the roster than Castro but Flores didn’t exactly light it up this year.
“We still feel like we have some young catching prospects, between Drew Butera, Francisco Pena and Sean McCraw.”
Gina, Gina….don’t use rational thought and useful stats…don’t you know BA, HRs, and RBIs are the best indicators of a players skill?
Pena was a FA signing… who while only 19 has come into camp aout of shape, and has yet to have a breakout season…
They also drafted Havens with the idea he MAY be able to go behind the plate.
But really Flores was our best ML catching prospect since Todd Hundley.
Those are the facts kid…
Poor guy has yet to have a break out season at age 19. LOL.
Pena was an IFA like Flores, so it’s not really any different. As fort Butera, the numbers I’m looking at were kind of terrible, other than his walk rate, and didn’t we end up trading him for Castillo like 1.5 years later? How highly could they have thought of him. I don’t know anything about McCraw though.
That was not the point Gina. Sorry I did not clarify. I was just stating that Pena was in the organization at the time of the draft. I don’t know anything about the other two either.
In his first year, Flores outhit Schneider who has been in the league for 8 years. He also plays very good defense. Superstar, probably not but young, cheap and a solid to above average future ahead of me. Terrible move by Omar.
It was a bad move in hindsight. But who of us would have guessed that any team would have carried him all year when he clearly wasn’t ready. Not many teams have the flexibility to keep someone that bad all year and tie up a spot.
Outhit Scheider??, Flores hit .256 and had an OBP of .296. Scnheider hit .257 and had an OBP of .339, in jus a few more ABs. COme on look who you are comparing him too!
COmpare him to Brain MCann or russel martin in there first few years then tell me if it was a mistake!!
On a worse team, in worse hitting ball park.. had more RBIs and almost as many hrs in fewer at bats?
For 4.5 mllion less?
Who are you trying to kid
True, but Flores obviously has much more room to improve because of his inexperience and age. The fact that they are as close as they are right now says a lot.
Come thereal.. weve been over the crappy players Omar kept on the 40 man roster instead of jesus flores.. there was room for him.
It was a terrible move… a gm is supposed to have foresight.. if a move looks bad in “hindsight” it’s because the GM was wrong.
plain and simple.
They are all the same age. And Mccan and Martin made there MLB Debut at a younger age.
No one is debating that Flores will most likely be a better hitter than Schnieder and is right now a better bargain.
What I am saying is that most teams could not have afforded to carry him all year 2 years ago.
Hes got 400 Big League ABs and has an avg of .250. I dont see a mistake.
All the mets had to do was protect him, that’s all that matters… why take a chance?
You could of had the same #s for 4.5 million less, and you don’t see a mistake?
Go back and look at that 40 man roster that year and tell me who he should have left off for a catcher that hit .266 in Single A in 2006? A guy who could not even stay on the Nats roster in 2008 amd was sent back to the minors?
Why take the chance? Because we could have been having the same conversation about someone else they left off because they kept a single A catcher.
I forget his name.. he was an OF who was cut something like a month later.. I will see if I can find the mets 40 man roster on the net.. but it’s been well documented there was room.
What are you Omar in hiding? This was a terrible move by him.. if you can’t even admit this, there is no hope for you.
So you no doubt would have kept a guy in single A at age 21 that hit .266 on the 40 man roster over a guy that COULD have helped us that season?
If you say that then there is no hope for you.
Again.. a GM’s job is to evaluate talent! That is what he gets paid for!!
He obviously didn’t do his job properly, or he would of found a way to protect a young catching prospect who can hit…
Jeez.. go google Jesus Flores and all you find is article after aritcile ripping Omar for this one.
Put the Kool Aid down.
He can hit??? Really??? Could of fooled me
This is such a ridiculous argument. The Mets were not in a position to get a ? at the catcher position. They needed someone who could handle a pitching staff. They weren’t looking for offense, because if Castillo could have handled the #2 hitter duties, offense wouldn’t have been a problem. However, he couldn’t. So, Schneider-Castillo-Pitcher became a black hole for an otherwise good offense.
However, I see your point. Having Jesus Flores in that lineup instead of Schneider would have given us the offensive boost we needed (rolling eyes).
at age 21, in single A?
That is quite an accomplishemnt for a catcher to call pitches, and hold is own at the plate at age 21.
And they cut the guy before the season even started.. and he DIDNT help us out during the season.
Outfielders are a dime a dozen.. young catching prospects are not.
Good for them. Was it a bad move? Yes. But again, how could you think that a team would keep a 21 year old Single A player who hit .266 all year on the MLB roster.?
Yeh, his .250 BA would have helped a whole lot!!!!!!!!
The only arguement is whether the mets should of protected Flores in the draft…
The fact that he’s already a better catcher then our 5 million dollar cather who cost us Lastings Milledge is just gravy
Opening day 40 man roster 2007
Tom Glavine
Orlando Hernandez
John Maine
Oliver Perez
Billy Wagner
Aaron Heilman
Scott Schoeneweis
Pedro Feliciano
Aaron Sele
Joe Smith
Ambiorix Burgos
CATCHERS
Paul Lo Duca
Ramon Castro
INFIELDERS
Carlos Delgado
Jose Valentin
Jose Reyes
David Wright
Julio Franco
Damion Easley
David Newhan
OUTFIELDERS
Carlos Beltran
Moises Alou
Shawn Green
Endy Chavez
Lastings Milledge
Who at that time did you not want on there to protect your .266 hitting single a catcher?
Lets not start on LAstings Milledge
Thats only 25 buddy
By the way. the real.. he LED THE FSL WITH21 home runs that year!
So keep throwing that .266 averge out there.
He put up INCREDIBLE numbers for a 21 year old in a pitching dominated league.. and as a catcher led the league in Home RUNS!!!
Not to mention catchers are learning to call pithces.. handle pitchers.. hitting is just another thing for them to learn.
That is a guy you protect in your farm system.
In fairness, he did hit .266 in single A, but he also cranked 21 home runs. He was not just some average .266 hitter.
Uh.. that’s 25 guys? Where’s the other 15??????
I am not arguing the fact that Schneider is horrible. His defense is vastly overrated for his lack of offense…or so it seemed this year, anyway.
All I am saying is Flores would not have made the difference on this team.
That’s a tougher argument to make… but fine.. Ill give you it would of been marginal at best…
All I’m saying is he should of been protected in the rule V draft that year.
A) the Flores thing happened before the Schneider pick-up, so saying one-for-the-other is silly.
B) When you pick up a Rule 5, then you have to keep them on your ML roster ALL YEAR, or lose them back to the original team. Who can, in December, predict that a team will be so awful as to keep a Single A cather on the ML squad all year? I think your being a little too hard on Omar here.
Pitchers
* 72 Adam Bostick
40 Ambiorix Burgos
* — Marcos Carvajal
25 Pedro Feliciano
47 Tom Glavine
48 Aaron Heilman
26 Orlando Hernandez
* 49 Philip Humber
33 John Maine
45 Pedro Martinez
59 Guillermo Mota
28 Juan Padilla
* 61 Chan Ho Park
34 Mike Pelfrey
46 Oliver Perez
50 Duaner Sanchez
60 Scott Schoeneweis
35 Aaron Sele
70 Joe Smith
* 43 Jason Vargas
13 Billy Wagner
32 Dave Williams
Catchers
11 Ramon Castro
16 Paul Lo Duca
Infielders
86 Jose Castro
21 Carlos Delgado
3 Damion Easley
23 Julio Franco
* 1 Anderson Hernandez
7 Jose Reyes
22 Jose Valentin
5 David Wright
Outfielders
18 Moises Alou
15 Carlos Beltran
10 Endy Chavez
* 61 Carlos Gomez
20 Shawn Green
* 4 Ben Johnson
44 Lastings Milledge
17 David Newhan
Theres alot of trash on that list!!
Yea, but all closer to the bigs then a Single A catcher.
That’s not even list at the time of the Rule V draft… that’s the one to start the season…
Flores’s A+ numbers were not that bad for a 21 year old catcher.
obp: 335
slugging: 487 <– this sticks out a ton, he hit 32 doubles and 21 homers
I’d be interested in knowing why they thought Jose Castro and Anderson Hernandez would be more useful on the 40 man roster.
There’s a lot of trash on a lot of teams’ list. I think this discussion should be tabled until we see what the next few years hold for Flores. Of course, by then I will hopefully have graduated from the Mets ruling my life, but you never know. Just like you never know if a 21 year old A-ball catcher is going to hack it in the majors. Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Find the list for when the draft occured. Again, there was 99% chance that if anyone had taken Flores they would have had to give him back. He was so far from ready. He hit .266 in SINGLE A. That’s not 40 man roster potential. How would you like it if the Mets lost Murphy to protect some guy in Single A hitting .266?
The FSL is a pitching dominated league.. you are using pretty much the worst stat to measure the kid…
And he’s a catcher. He has to learn how to call pitchers, how to handle his pitchers… how to manage an at bat.
He led the league in HRs
He was an Single A All star
How much more promise do you need?
No one is arguing what the mets were thinking (too young to catch the ML level).. but it was a gamble not worth taking.
End of freakin story.. what’s for lunch.
No but I wouldn’t care if they lost some guys like Argenis Reyes, Robin Cancel. I’m not really sure where Murphy plays in because obviously the players people are asking about on the 06 40 man roster were nothing like Murphy.
not to mention .266 isn’t that bad when you’re talking about a catcher, especially when you look at his other offensive numbers, especially ones that are better indicators of offensive value than avg. Like the power numbers he put up in A+ or the semi decent walk totals. I have no doubt a lot of people in here are overrating/overvaluing him but I don’t think it’s that ridiculous to question why he wasn’t protected when you look at some of the names on the roster.
Point is, guys like that are more likely to help at any point at the ML level. That’s why they are protected, and not scooped up. Every now and then something slips by, like this case, or the Santana case, but it’s really the exception, not the rule. All the haters just use it to cite another example of Omar’s inability.
I think it takes the bare minimum of common sense to protect a 21 year old who led a pitching dominated league in home runs.. at a rare position.
As a GM it should take even less.
And leave off who? Find that person that you would have left off.
The Mets used 42 players in 08. Your 40 man roster needs to be ML ready, or at least have AA or AAA exp. The Nats made a move that no other team would, because most teams try and win at the opening bell. And, if he was all that, “21 HR in a pitching dominated league”, then why, at age 21, was he still in A?
Shhhh. Reason not allowed. Only hindsight. I mean sure a team that was one game away from the WS should have protected a 21 year old Single A player over guys that were thought to be able to help the team in 2007.
21 isn’t really that old for A+. Plus Nick Evans was only in A in 2007 and he started the season off on the 40 man roster.
Evans did not have to be protected by my count. I think there a difference between just being on the 40 man and being protected. Like Carp for example is still not elligible.
And it could also be that Omar learned his lesson. LOL.
The only thing I can think of there, Gina, is looking at Delgado’s 2007, the bra-ss might of thought that Evans would be a viable back-up plan, should the downward trend continue to 08.
But we would’ve never seen Nick if not for a slew of injuries. And seeing him, he isn’t ready for a full ML season yet.
Here’s the bottom line on Flores. Omar gambled that no team would keep a Single A catcher on their ML roster for the entire year. He lost what looked like a pretty safe bet because the Nats were essentially a AAA team and could hold on to Flores.
actually i believe the team acquiring a rule 5 player must keep him on the active roster all year, or else trade him back to the original team
see: josh hamilton
the team protecting needs only to keep him on the 40 man roster – which the mets could have done with flores staying in AA
horrible move by omar not to protect the only catcher in our system. no arguing this point.
nationals were shrewd and outsmarted omar.
now anyone who says flores isn’t better than schneider or castro doesn’t know how to run a team. you always take equal performance at lower cost. if you want your team to be run differently – go to the yanks
wrong. they must be kept on the 25 man roster. google. its easy.
“Nationals were shrewd”…or, you could say, the nationals flew a white flag in December when they committed a 25-man roster spot to a 21 yr old former Single A catcher, in hopes of finding a gem for later years. I’d say they struck gold, which is kinda lucky.
How can you say they struck gold already? I am on your side in this argument, but one season does not a career make.
Trying to appease the picketers. I don’t think he’s all that either. In 2007 (his first yr), a .244/.310/.361 line is hardly something to make the Mets say, “man we sure got fleeced in that one!”
To clarify, the striking gold aspect is in reference to finding a player that ACTUALLY stays around the whole year.
You have to leave them on the 40 man roster all year right? I don’t really think losing Bowman would be that serious.
I don’t think we have to leave them on all year. The taking team has to leave them on the 25 man roster all year. Maybe I am wrong. None the less, Bowman is a good trading chip for now. Not as the center of the package but as a throw in after his strong Fall. Maybe something like Heilman, Bowman and Kunz nets you Vasquez.
Given the major back issues he has had, Bowman is not a trading chip.
What’s up Hubie? I think he is still a throw in prospect because of his potential. Again, not going to get much but still a guy another team might take a chance on as player #3 in a trade.
Not bad, the real. I read an article on bowman’s back troubles last year. It was really bad. Even when he came back last year, he still was not 100%. Anyway, he certainly could be a throw-in for a deal, but I think his back problems will cause some white flags.
I wouldn’t say he has much potential. He’s shown little to no power at this point and at 24 there’s not much hope he’ll develop more, how much his back has to do with that I don’t know. A 24 year old corner infielder with little to no power and inconsistent walk rates can’t have much value.
You guys want to get on Omar for a not protecting this guy but if he did protect this guy and the another player who was not protected was taking from our roster and did ok then you would be killing Omar for that.
Jesus moves like this happen all the time with every team … so I guess every GM should be fired.
EVERY GM MAKES MOVES THAT TURNOUT TO BE BAD. OMAR HAS MADE ALLOT BETTER MOVES THEN BAD ONES SINCE BEING THE METS GM.
Who was put on the roster over Flores to be protected?
That’s what I am trying to figure out. I remember this arguement a the time and people were saying names like Julio Franco. But obviously at the time Franco would have been thought to be more of an as set than Flores in Single A.
wasnt it a reliever??? Kyle Peterson ??
I can not believe we are talking about the rule 5 draft and not whats going on with FA’s and the trading block. Omar is sure moving kinda slowly.
Give him time. Only a few GMs have made moves. Then again I’m trusting my gut…for now.
Did you read the article Matt posted? We are talking about Rule 5 because the the deadline today.
did you expect him to have the whole team in place by now? The winter meetings haven’t even happened yet, we’re going after big time free agents, they’re not going to sign this early. Man, some of you act like you’ve never been through an offseason before, expecting so many moves already.
its still very early, but I think alot of fans would be at ease if we saw some more progress like maybe picking up one of the many FA relievers (not just krod or fuentes).
I agree. I would have loved for them have brought in Affeldt.
The Royals got Joakim Soria through the Rule V Draft in 2006.
rule 5 is a great way to possibly get a live arm for the pen (someone caught in a numbers crunch, or that just needs a chance). Like Soria, or just young like Johan. You can also “hide” a guy as the 7th man in the pen.
Toby at mets minors had a nice piece on the roster (he said to add bowman). IIRC, there are only about 33 guys on the 40 man right now, so they have plenty of room to add more. Just don’t know how many are eligible.
and losing Flores was a terrible move. Omar gambled, and lost. And all to protect Julio Franco!
Bowman does need to prove that he can stay healthy, but it is quite possible a team could decide to take a flyer on him as the extra prospect to make a trade happen. High risk, maybe high reward, but not a player they will miss anytime soon.
Losing Flores? They still have him – what do you mean?
omar is not that smart when it comes to drafting guys, he seems to like the proven players already, that’s why he didn’ t protect flores, remember the trade he did in montreal:”colon for brandon philips and um… who was that cf.. gosh.. um.. oh GRADY FREAKING SIZEMORE”!! i don’t rule out him trading any of our young starts down the line, believe me, as much as we bash wilpon thank god for him not allowing omar full authority in trades, otherwise at first cracked he would’ve traded DAVID WRIGHT for colon!!!
Fwiw the expos were facing contraction, of course he also traded brandon phillips and cliff lee so contraction or not he got horrible horrible horrible value in that trade but still it’s not like he just did it on a whim.
Although you’re right the mets have been pretty terrible drafters.
Lets face it, Omar did a decent job bringing the Mets from a horrible team to respectability(although all he did was spend money on FA), but from ‘06 to now , he has failed to get the extra piece or two to get back to WS contender. And he inflated the payroll from 80 million in ‘05 to 140 million this year. He definitely isnt the best or smartest GM in baseball by a wide margin.
But he isn’t the worst or stupidest either. Everyone throws out phrases like, “Omar should’ve found a way to get it done.” The other GMs, for the most part, aren’t stupid. This isn’t like MLB 2k8 where you can just force a trade through. It’s a TRADE, i.e. it costs us something too.
Protecting a player in the rule 5 may cost us another, which may change a trade or FA signing down the road. It’s too simplistic to say one or two moves would’ve netted a title.
“It’s too simplistic to say one or two moves would’ve netted a title”
Well, in ‘06, we were very,very close but we couldnt score any runs off of Suppan. My point was Omar didnt do much in ‘07 to bounce back from the ‘06 playoff loss and become an even better team in ‘07.
“The other GMs, for the most part, aren’t stupid. This isn’t like MLB 2k8 where you can just force a trade through. It’s a TRADE, i.e. it costs us something too. ”
When Omar came here, he was known as an “outside the box” GM with creativity! Where is it??
My point is to say “Omar didn’t do much” implies there was something that he easily should’ve done and failed to do. When trades or FA signings don’t get done it’s easy to just say he blew it, but in reality I’m sure he tried to make changes and upgrade but couldn’t/wouldn’t meet the unrealistic demands of other teams.
If you’re the Expos in 2004 or 2005 (whenever that trade was made), you make a run at it. You don’t hold onto guys because they could help you inthe future. The Expos were never able to win anything. They finally had a season where they were contending. You really can’t blame them for trying to get someone who was an ace.
UM blame our scouts to then becasue that is there job.
Doesn’t Omar pick his souts?
I’m not trying to join the Omar bashing, because I think he’s amongst the better GMs int he league. But if evaluating talent is a problem, then he needs to find better scouts.
Omar was given a gift in Wright and Reyes= 2 young, cheap superstars. He has also built a nice core for the future by locking those guys up and adding Beltran and Johan. I just don’t see where they’re going to take us because Omar has proven over the last few years that he is horrible at the fringe moves that fill out the roster. Julio Franco, Marlon Anderson, Castillo, Alou. 3 years for Schoeneweis? Really?
Omar can make some of the big moves, but he can’t put together a complete roster.
And apparently at building, or at least hiring guys to build/manage a farm system.
Chase Utley out four to six months. He could miss up to 1/3 of the season.
alou 42 y/o old:8 millions, el duque 47 y/o: 8.5 millions
castillo 34 y/o: 24 millions, yet he let glavine go because they were trying to get young and go in a differetn direction.. other than the signing he’s had of beltran, i can’t really applaud what he’s done here… remember johan fell into our laps because we were gonna pay him… i do not trust this guy.. oh, and by the way he wanted zito here at all cost, but wilpon said they were not going to give him more than 6 years.. but, no, here’s 4 more years, that extension reminded me the one the knicks gave isiah when they got at hold the 8th spot in march!!!! then they won something like 3 more games i think, i am very scare becoz if GOD forbid reyes, wright, or beltran go down we would have NOONE to replace neither…
Help me come up with an all-time Rule 5 Draft Roster
1B – Darrel Evans
2B – Dan Uggla
SS – ???
3B – Bobby Bonilla
LF – George Bell
CF – Hack Wilson
RF – Roberto Clemente
C – ???
P – Johan Santana
VERY interesting! Wow, Hack Wilson? They had this draft all the way back then, huh?
Cool post!
Josh Hamilton can DH.
Based on my research so far, Jesus Flores is the best catcher ever picked up by Rule 5…
I don’t know is he’s eligible but the Phillies have a sick 1B prospect playing for there high A or maybe AA now called Matt Rizzotti. He something like 6′5″ 230 and hes a lefty, lefty who can pay OF as well. Pick him up and groom him to replace Delgado in a couple years.
? Rizotti was drafted last year,
Wow people get really worked up over a A catcher who was 21 at the time hitting something around .250 in A ball. WOW. Over-reaction. Yes he had a better year last year then Schneider. But it wasn’t like he was 50 times better. And Schneider was part of a deal that was a salary dump with a Outfielder we wanted and he filled a need position. Wow.
Now if he had been Uggla. When in his Rule 5 season he hit .282 27HR and 90 RBI with a .818 OPS. Then i would get up in arms.
A .250 hitting catcher with no power. Call me when he’s an impact player.
No power? Have you looked his A ball stats from that year? I believe he put up a higher OPS than the one you just posted for Uggla, and had 21 homers and 32 doubles.