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In a report for the Daily News, Adam Rubin takes a closer look at Aaron Heilman, whose agent says the pitcher does not want to be traded, he wants to be a starting pitcher.
…well, my sense is that both may eventually come true…
Rubin writes, “There’s an organizational split about Heilman – with chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon wanting him to remain and other key front-office personnel favoring a trade,” according to a source with knowledge of the team’s internal discussions.
The Rockies, Cardinals, Cubs, D’Backs, A’s, Rays and Rangers have all shown interest in Heilman, according to various reports.
…as i wrote the other day, from what i can gather, the Mets are working to trade for a relief pitcher who has experience as a closer…in addition to signing one of Francisco Rodriguez, Brian Fuentes or Kerry Wood…
…at the same time, i continue to get the sense heilman will eventually be traded…
…at the same time, the Rockies continue to be mentioned as having interest in heilman…
…so, as i suggested the other day, i’m starting to think the Mets could eventually work out a trade with heilman, and a prospect, in exchange for Huston Street, i.e., a relief pitcher with a experience as a closer…or so i hope…
As Rubin points out, Heilman is 5–13 with a 5.93 ERA in 25 starts between 2003 and 2005.
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i’d let him be our fifth starter, that’ll give us more flexibility to sign a great ptcher, a great closer and a great bat!!!! plus, even if he messes up we will have neise to back up.. if trade him, trade him to an american league team, i’d hate to see him do good in the nl and stick it to us..
I agree with you Alex. I they sign a good #2 starter then Heilman can be a pretty good #5 starter. The Mets will never do it though. They are too stubborn. Even though at least 6 teams see him as a starter … the Mets don’t. Now they’ll trade him for a bad deal after they destroyed his value.
If they weren’t going to start him they should have traded him at least 2 years ago.
heilman STINKS….as a reliever…and even MORE so as a starter. a two pitch schlub. he shoulda been unloaded 5 years ago! Matt, just my opinion….dont ban me bro
“Don’t tase me bro”
Nostradamus, take it from Metsrodamus, you are wrong. Heilman’s tenure as a starting pitcher was when he was pitching from “over the top.” Admittedly, he had little success as a pitcher with that wind-up. So, Rick Peterson, in one of his moments of genius, got Heilman to drop his elbow back to where he had it in college, which created more movement on his fastball and his performance improved dramatically. That spring Heilman pitched his butt off and should have been given the 5th starter’s job over Bannister (who also pitched very well that spring, but not as well as Heilman).
So, throw Heilman’s previous starting pitcher stats out the window. They mean nothing.
As for last year, Heilman was hurt with a bum left knee that affected his control and his change-up.
I say give this guy a shot as no. 5. He throws 95-96 mph with movement. He has an excellent change-up and a decent slider. That’s more of a repertoire than Pelfrey has.
Sign KRod, Fuentez and Cruz (and maybe Lowe if he decides to get real and not go for Zito money, which he’ll never get) and we’re on our way.
Spot on, The Slider.
I’m not sure that’s entirely accurate. Yes, the majority of his starts were with his over the top delivery. But, he did pitch a few of the last starts with his natural delivery. He still wasn’t very good.
No, no, and no. You are wrong. He didn’t pitch any of his regular season starts with the elbow drop wind-up. I’m certain of that.
This is from metstoday.com, talking about his performance AS A STARTER after returning to his natural delivery:
He was ineffective as a starter in the past.
Yes — BEFORE he returned to his more natural, low-three-quarter delivery. After Guy Conti convinced Rick Peterson to tell Willie Randolph to talk to Heilman about going back to his old ways, Heilman pitched pretty well as a starter. Here are his stats as a starter in 2005, after he ditched the Mets’ force-fed overhand motion:
GS IP K BB WHIP ERA W-L CG
7 42 34 12 1.19 4.37 2-3 1
Only seven games, a small sample for sure, but the numbers suggest he would be at least a decent back-end guy. Add in the outstanding winter he had after the 2005 season, and the excellent showing during the 2006 spring training audition, and there’s enough to dispel the myth that Heilman “failed before as a starter”.
Excellent research casey!!! So, I was partly wrong.
But he did pitch much better after he changed his wind-up. He was still getting used to it again, though. And it wasn’t until the next spring training that he felt comfortable again. Heilman told me that himself. ; )
Thanks, Slider. I have to say that when I dug up that article, I found myself thinking about the possibilities. I mean, we only need a decent 5th starter, right? But, then I started to think about the toxic environment in which Heilman would be making the transition back to starter and it left me actually feeling sorry for him. He should get his chance to start, but maybe Flushing isn’t the right place for that.
The article, if you want to read it (it’s actually a decent read) can be found by googling heilman-will-not-start-for-the-mets.
Yeah, the toxic environment issue is still there. But, in his defense, he’s a smart kid from Notre Dame who’s already severely suffered the wrath of Mets fans AND STILL WANTS TO HERE (as amazing as that sounds), so long as he’s given a chance to start … and he’s cheap and already on the roster.
I know it’s a little risky. But if he’s healthy again, I’d like us to take that chance with the possibility of so much upside. Remember, he was a former first round pick. Plus, I know – I just know – if we trade him, he’ll have a great year. He’s exactly the type of player who Omar looks to get from another team, i.e. a talented player who is coming off a bad year or two, who will come relatively cheap.
What makes you think Heilman would be any more effective as a 5th starter than he was as a relief pitcher? Much as I like Aaron, his skills have deteriorated over the last 2 seasons and I very much doubt Met fans will be very forgiving towards him if he has a bad inning as a starter.
I think the best thing is to part ways and let him try his luck elsewhere. And Colorado is as good a place as any – it worked out quite well for Kaz – and the Mets would only face him at most twice a season. Plus if the Mets end up getting Street in return, that’s a win-win for everybody.
I would not trade him to the AL as they’d eat him alive over there.
Heilman was effective as a relief pitcher … remember? That was the whole reason he was “so important” to the bullpen in the first place. People have short memories.
He should have been given a chance to start long ago … or traded long ago when his value was high. If you think you couldn’t get more than Street 2 years ago, you’re crazy.
Total mishandling of a pitcher by the Mets. No getting around that.
In fairness, he was a very effective relief pitcher back in 2006 – remember that great relief set-up the Mets had? Heilman in the 7th, Bradford in the 8th, Wagner in the 9th – good times, good times.
But ever since he gave up that HR in the NLCS, he’s had some sort of confidence issue. He’s good at times, but very erratic – and it’s gotten progressively worse. He needs a change of scenery I think to get his groove back, and if Colorado wants to try him out as a starter, and give Street back in return, win-win-win for everybody.
Yeah I do remember that … I also remember that Duaner Sanchez in 06 was the 8th inning guy til he got hurt. The pen was not the same after that cab accident. If Sanchez was in that pen in the playoff’s that year it would have been much different.
I don’t think he has a confidence issue … I just think his mentality as a late inning reliever is not the right one. He’s got really good stuff and the mentality to start. The Mets won’t let him. That’s the problem.
Yeah … I’ll take Street for him because at this point that’s all you can do. Still would have loved to trade Heilman 2 years ago and gotten much more for him.
Heilman hasn’t been good for a while. Even in 2006, he wasn’t that good…and, if we are talking about memories…I seem to remember Heilman losing his set-up job to Duaner in early 2006.
The guy is mediocre at best.
Casey … you’re wrong. He was very good in 06. He didn’t lose a set up job … they shared the duty for the first half of the season. Depending on match ups. Duaner then got in the cab accident and Heilman took over the 8th inning full time. He did very well.
Not sure what you were watching.
maybe i’ve got it wrong, then. i will say that he has never a good setup guy. he was decent to good, then his performance trailed off from there. this team will be much better off without him – in any role.
I’ve advocated trading him for the past 3 years, just so you know. My beef is with how the Mets have handled the whole situation from the beginning.
Now they will sell him low because of incompetent decisions.
Well, that would a good beef to have. They have really botched so many personnel decisions over the years. Not related to player value exactly, but look how they bungled Church last year! Horrible.
Yeah … really makes you wonder sometimes, doesn’t it?
why is jeff wilpon even involved in these discussions?
Why is Jeff WIlpon even allowed into the front office? They should create a fake front office somewhere in the basement of Citifield and tell Jeff to go there. They could have coffee and donuts and life-sized cut outs of Fred, Omar and Tony – with bobbleheads nodding in agreement over anything Jeffy says – he will never know the difference
FIRE WILPON!
Oh yeah, I forgot, he’s the owner. (Dagnabit!)
Sign one solid free agent starter and a reliever or two and let Heilman compete with Neise to be the fifth starter. It wouldn’t be the worst thing.
Honestly, I’d rather they try and sign Pedro (for reasonable money) for one year to be their 5th starter. Heilman has too much baggage with the fans to be an effective starter
I agree to let him be the 5th starter. I would rather put him and Niese in the rotation as opposed to going broke with Perez and Lowe. Look to upgrade at 2B and LF and by all means improve the bullpen.
If heliman and Niese do not work out upgrade in the summer-there will be options then. Whjy are we overpaying for mediocre pitchers especially in the case of Perez- who we know is not worth the money.
Heilman is under contract-give him the oportunity and focus on the other areas.
Wow..this indicates that its time to part ways. Its surely for the best for both sides to start fresh without one another.
I think Molina’s HR and choking in every big spot since then was more of an indication that it’s time to split ways.
The guy is absolutely terrible in a big spot. I’m tired of seeing his pouty face after giving up leads in crucial games over and over again.
The time to move on was after the 2006 season. It’s 2 years too late, but better late than never.
I’m sure he will do well in Colorado where his fragile personality will be sheltered from the spotlight of NYC.
I think this is the quintessential case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
The guy is an a-s-set period. All players are a-s-sets. Jeff should be talking only about moving him to the 5th starter role. Hear me out for a second……
If Omar, Jeff and company start posturing that Heilman is coming back and will be our 5th starter…then his value is perceived as more than it is now. IT will take more value coming back to us for the METS to consider moving him. Even a 5th starter is deemed as more valuable to a squad than a struggling middle reliever.
Pluses for Heilman is a good change up, a good 95 – 96 mph fastball when he is healthy and a decent slider. He is also just 30 and still has 2 years before free agency (unbelievable but true).
That in my mind makes him the kind of guy the METS should be hunting for their back end of the rotation. Some other teams ?? with potential. Heilman has potential and we have seen him for at least 2 years be a better than average reliever (last year not withstanding).
I vote for pumping him up to be a starter, rather than saying no way, and then flipping him to other teams with his new inflated value and perceived importance to us.
Just my .02
interesting point.
Very good point. This makes complete sense. I never thought of that angle before.
Sign this man up for GM.
see ya, Schoenweis is on deck,,,,Feliciano and Sanchez to follow
Exactly. Get him outta town. He’s been sulking since his move to the bullpen in 2006, and has progressively gotten worse each season. Instead of being a lights out guy, and being a man and a teammate he sulks and stinks.
I’d like to keep Sanchez. He is cheap, has a history of being great at getting out everyone, not just a lefty or a righty. He was in his first season back from a major surgery, and the speed and velocity were therein initially, and then he tired later in the season. I think that full year of health and work can get him back to where he was in 2006 before that stupid cab accident.
Show, Feliciano, Delgado, Castillo….. BYE BYE!
Why in the heck is Jeffy involved in player personnel decisions??
I thought he wasnt part of the “baseball department”
Because he is the owner. Also George Steinbenner was in on a lot of player personnel decisions as well.
so Omar doesnt have Complete discretion in the “baseball department” like we were always led to believe by Jeff and Fred??
When Jeffy got involved in player decisions in the past we always wound up with the wrong decisions. (See Trachsel, Steve and Glavine, Tom Jeffy’s golf and wine buddies)
Not to mention his stellar idea to trade Kazmir for Victor Zambrano.
If my father owned the team and I was its COO I’d want to have a say in the baseball department…for better or for worse, its my team.
then don’t complain when the gm does what you want and the team stinks.
oh you can def complain…you own the team so you can create any scapegoat you want…you pay their checks…
Jeffy should stick to picking colors for the clubhouse bathroom and getting the bills paid on time.
He has ABSOLUTELY NO expertise in evaluating baseball talent and should keep his mouth shut when it comes to the “baseball department”
This was the deal when Omar came and should remain that way.
George and Hanky steinbrenner should not be the model for running the organization. And dont throw their WS titles out there.. They only got good when Stick Michael was in charge and George was suspended by the commissioner.
Fwiw while I agree the Steinbreinners are the opposite of how an organization should be run and Jeff has no background in baseball to make it seem like he should have anything to do with baseball operations I don’t think him being involved is a horrible thing. While most reports I’ve heard about him make it seem like he’s not exactly the sharpest tool in the thread he also seems to want to push more progressive thinking, which I don’t think can hurt any front office too much.
let him design the new patch for the uniform then.
when silver spoon boys get involved in player decisions we are in for a long dark winter.
we have to keep at least one lefty and sign another, i also think sanchez is done… bye..
besides joe smith, thats the only reliever i’d want to keep. Purely based off a potential return to top form…maybe even possible with one more year removed from surgery.
I agree. Show and Feliciano are indeed lefties. But they can only get out one side of the plate…. See ya. I’d say to move Smith as well because of his ineffectiveness with left handed hitter, but he’s young and throws hard, so i lean towards keeping him. Don’t guarantee him anything, if he can’t get out both Left and Right handed hitters, back to AAA until you can.
Sanchez a year removed could have a confidence build and regain his stuff. Worth a shot, cheap and used to be great. Again don’t guarantee him anything. He can’t do it in the spring on to AAA or Cut. Simple.
I don’t want any more guys that can only get out one side of the plate.
You realize most team find loogy type players highly valuable? And will give up pretty big packages to get them, see Linebrink. And that effective relievers who can get out both sides of the plate aren’t exactly falling out of the sky?
Sanchez is far from done, he was one of the few releivers that could pitch to both righties and lefties.
Heiman’s career has been strange. He never was given the chance to start in the way Pelfrey has. In fact, while not a good starter, Heilman had more good games than Pelfrey did during his audition phase.
I wonder what Heilman would be if he’d been allowed the same curve as Pelfrey.
when? besides the one-hitter? pelfrey in two months alone did more than heilman ever dreamed of doing.
Other than the one hitter in 2003 and 2004:
7/1/03 7IP 5H 3ER
6/26/03 6IP 6H 1ER
8/20/03 6IP 2H 1ER
9/19/04 7IP 2H 1ER
Now, these are just a select few among a sea of bad starts, but Pelfrey had fewer good ones in his sea of bad starts. I would argue that Heilman showed just as much reason for a team to be patient with him as Pelfrey did.
Would it have worked out? Who knows?
They put Heilman in the pen as a long reliever on a temporary basis to clear his head and he dominated for the rest of the year. He had the lowest ERA in all of baseball after the all star break that year. Then, it was like ‘How can we take him out of the bullpen since he was the best reliever in all of baseball for an extended period of time?’ Heilman is a victim of his own success. If they put Pelfrey in the pen in the midst of his struggles and he dominated like Heilman did, Pelfrey would probably be the closer right now.
I don’t remember that being the case — not saying it wasn’t, just saying I don’t recall.
The point is, Heilman was an awful starter many times, but he did start to show some glimpses of getting it. That’s when he went to the pen. Pelfrey was a disaster for a good chunk when suddenly “click” he got it.
Nobody knows for sure, but I do believe Heilman might have been on his way.
Yes, he was great in the ‘pen at first. But the fact that seems to be lost on all of baseball these days is that a good starter is much more valuable than a good reliever.
so putting heilman in the rotation is going to make people forget his past failures? if anything it would be worse for him, he goes out there and gives up 5 run in 2 1/3 innings, i doubt he’ll have much capital left with the fans that would even warrant him a mulligan.
this guy’s as good as gone and frankly i won’t be shedding a tear over it.
Please go back and show me where I ever suggested that he should be our #5 starter or anybody’s starter.
All I said was that he had kind of an odd career and I’m curious as to why they showed the patience they did with Pelfrey, but not as much with Heilman.
I never said I wanted him to start. I never said that he should remain on the Mets. I never said anything of the kind.
I remember things as chan ho does, fwiw. right or wrong (and imo, wrong), he looked too valuable in the pen to move back.
I remember the he looked too good part, but I thought he’d kind of gone back in forth between the two for a little bit before they ultimately committed to him in the pen. It really doesn’t matter, as it’s all academic at this point.
While I really do think Heilman will have a good year this year and can be a dominant 8th inning pitcher, it is time to part ways with him. If you can get Street for him and a prospect not named Parnell, Holt, Fmart, Kunz, or Murphy you have to do it. You have to do it even knowing that he most likely will return to form and the Street for Heilman deal would be a wash, while the Rockies would get a free prospect
He cannot continue to pitch in NY because the fans will never give him a fair shot again
yea..he’s entered kaz matsui and benitez territory, its tough to come back from that.
IMO you should be able to get street for him straight up. Even though he’s had his struggles here he’s a better pitcher than Street and both of them are entering FA years so cost shouldn’t really make a difference.
Come on Gina. There is no way that Heilman’s trade value right now alone is anywhere near Street. Street’s off year was so much better than Heilman’s off year. Not just that but media has killed Heilman’s trade value while Street was with the A’s and nobody even knew he lost his closer job.
It will take something like Heilman, Kunz which I would still do.
I’m not saying their trade value is close, I’m saying it’s not close which is why we shouldn’t do the deal. If you’re just looking at them as pitchers Heilman is better.
Agree to disagree there. Look at Street’s WHIP before last year.
His WHIP is a bit deceiving because he’s had a mix of unsustainable/fluky BABIP and HR/9 and HR/FB, some of which was a result of oakland’s defense and how extreme of a pitching park it is, and LD% rates to begin his career. The last two years they’ve started to come back down to earth. I would say last year is more of a true representation of the kind of pitcher he is, except maybe his walk totals which seem high, than the previous years.
If you look at their league adjusted ERA’s, street has been better the last 2 seasons, plus hes much younger. We would be lucky if all COL wanted was Heilman.
The guy has had one bad (albeit horrible) year and every met fan wants him gone. Fact is, he throws 95, has a plus changeup and a decent slider. And he went the entire month of july without giving up a run. And he’s CHEAP. Let the man start. If it doesn’t work out, trade him at the deadline. Unless we’re being offered Street for Heilman, keep him in house
This is why it is soooo hard to revamp a bullpen…you don’t know what you are going to get from one year to the next….that being said, you have to get rid of the pitchers that have failed you the last two seasons for no other reason than to get a clean slate…keep Stokes and Smith because they were the most reliable…out with the old and in with the new
The point is, he’s been prone to give up the big HR in big spots. To be fair, I think he was relied on way too much and was brought in in very tough situations many times(runners on base, 1 or no outs) where the success rate is unrealistic.
While he does have alot of talent, I think he has lost his confidence out of the pen and I know fans have certainly lost theirs with him. And thats a tough position to be in when playing in this market. He’s going to have a bulls-eye on his back everytime he pitches.
I just don’t see anyway we can keep him as a reliever…maybe keep him and give him a shot at starting, which could be an effective change of pace, but I just don’t think we can keep him for the pen anymore.
Not only did he have a terrible year last year, he also was one of the main reasons we didn’t see the WS in 2006. He also has a tendancy to give up the long ball, which is not good for a reliever. Its time to dump Aaron now, the fans will never get back on his side.
The reason we didn’t see the world series in 2006 is because Wagner was awful in that series (2.2 innings 7 hits 5 earned) and Lo Duca didn’t have the guts to force Mota to throw the right pitch in that spot. Heillman gets too much blame for that pitch to Molina.
However… the entire fan base holds him responsible for that pitch and I hear it every single time he comes in when I’m at a game. He must be traded to rid the fan base of negative attitudes
I was at that game and you could just see it was happening. He threw far too many pitches and was left out there too long.
The reason we didn’t get to the world series is because the offense couldn’t beat Jeff Suppan or Jeff Weaver. You choose to focus on the 1 inning in game 7, while I choose to focus on 3 entire games.
Yeah, I never understand people blaming Heilman for that. The offense was putrid and he was doing his 2nd inning of work because there was no faith in bringing Wagner in a tie game.
Also … what everyone seems to forget is the absence of Duaner in the 2nd half of 06 was a bigger difference. That is probably the bigger reason they didn’t win that year.
I agree with Mikey and Ravi. Suppan and Weaver are mediocre at best and they pitched against us as if they were Koufax and Drysdale. That’s why we lost. It shouldn’t have come down to the last inning of game 7.
I completely and 100% disagree. His only value as trade right now is as a starter. If he fails at that, we are stuck with nothing.
This guy has trade value right now. He has a plus change-up and throws hard.
If the plan is to have him back up the rotation and then move Niese in, that’s not much of a plan. We need bullpen help. He is a trading chip, we need to get the bullpen help.
He may turn out to be a stud. But he will never be that in NYC. He has proven he doesn’t have the chops on the big stage.
I feel like if we trade him now we’re going to end up getting the poor side of the deal.
maybe but you know damn well if he comes into a tight spot in the first week at citifield and blows a game, he will get killed. there comes a time where public perception and the boos simply will not allow a player a chance to right himself. heilman is a clear case of a player who needs a change of scenery.
i’m not a street fan but if the mets could snag him and a lower tier prospect, i think omar does it.
its one of those things where it may just have to be that way…we may get nothing out of him if we keep and we may regret trading him later..but if we can get something decent in return for him, than we can cut our losses…I just think its a tough spot we’re in, and it may not work out either route, but at least in a trade we might be able to replace him.
Well I agree if we can get decent value back. My worry is that teams are going to know the front office wants to get rid of him and we’re going to end up basically getting nothing.
Well if he sucls so bad. And we all want him off the team in a hurry, if we get basically nothing for him i would not be mad, since technically, as of right now, he is basically nothing to the mets!!!!!
Which is why it’s a good thing you’re not a gm.
Gina … the Mets screwed up this situation 2 years ago. They should have traded him then to a team willing to start him. They would have gotten a lot for him but the Mets are so stubborn that they’d rather stick a square block in a round hole and keep him in the pen.
Now, you’re right, we’ll get hardly anything for him.
Gina, if i were GM, I’d do a helluva job better than Omar!!!
I agree mikey_FF, when teams valued him as a starter and the front office knew they had no intention of starting him they should have sold high on him. Now he’s coming off a poor year and his value is probably the lowest it’s ever been but there’s so much baggage between the fans and bad blood between him and the front office that it’s hard to imagine he’ll turn things around here.
Yeah that is true. He basically has to go now. The fans won’t give him a chance at this point.
The end of this guys career in a Mets uniform cant come soon enough!
Ship him to Houston with a package of prospects and Get Valverde and Lee!!!!
i wish.
Unless Valverde is coming here to be a setup man in the pen, no thanks. The guy is an implosion waiting to happen. He is Armando Benitezsito.
If hes coming with Lee, he can be whatever he wants to be outside of closer!!
Why not send him down to the winter leagues – tell him you’re going to start.
if you do poorly…..shut up, we don’t want to ever hear “I wan’t to start out of your mouth again”
if you do well……you can compete for a starter job in spring training….
done
wow, that was bad…hahaha
first of all…there’s no apostrophe in want……lol
secondly the line should read
…we don’t want to ever hear “I want to start” out of your mouth again.
Ok….thats better
Its ok, this is not grammar 101. Its only metsblog. as long as we get your point or idea we won’t judge. lol
very true…We bare with Cerrone’s typos frequently.
Do you mean we “bear” with Cerrone’s typos?
what? you don’t want to undress with Cerrone’s typos.
Sounds decent to me.
We need a fifth starter, he wants to start. Could wrap it up without having to give away anything, and focus on more important things, like the closer, big bat, etc.
I think Heilman will be our 5th starter this year. It is cost effective and he can’t be worse than our 5th starters all of last season. He needs to develop a 3rd pitch. His slider pretty much $uck$.
no it doesn’t actually pretty good pitch, just gets rusty in the pen.
SPs get to use all their pitches, and have between start BP sessions to get them working. RPs dont, so they cut down the ones they use.
It doesn’t get wasted in the pen. I can’t accept that as an excuse. He rarely gets a swing and miss on it. It’s always a ball way out of the strike zone. He doesn’t use his changeup anymore.
Plenty of relievers have nasty sliders. He just isn’t one of them.
Not a bad idea to stretch him out a little. However, do we want him to go from 90 innings to 250 innings because of what he picks up in Winter league?
Good to hear that there are many teams interested in him as a starter. If it’s not Street, maybe someone else.
The Mets’ lack of flexibility on this issue is troubling. What is the downside to allowing Heilman to audition for a starting role? He came close back in spring training in 2006. Look at Dempster’s career. You just can’t tell what can work out over time.
give the guy a chance to start, we keep talking about going out and signing lowe to a 4 year 44 million dollar deal, but we won’t give heilman, who is way cheaper, even a try for a starting job in spring training.
The guy has nasty stuff, and pitchers are only expected to go 6 innings now, so his stuff can hold up 2 or 3 times through an order. He has the ability to look stupid at the plate with his change up, Warthen will help him with his slider, and get it back to how it was in 06/07. just give the guy a shot at least.. and let Niese wait in the wings a while.
Hate to break it to you but you are about 20 million off on Lowe.
I have stated many times on this blog……Stretch Heilman out in Spring Training to be a fifth starter or long man. If he shows well, you either keep him, or you have rebuilt his trade value. At this point, you have little downside as his value is like my 401K (or now my 150K)
By the way, what do you think it would take to get Alex Rios for the outfield?
Its not a matter of his stuff. Its his head. He cant handle pitching here anymore despite his I dont want to be traded statement. If you were a flyball pitcher who gave up homers, would you want to be traded to Colorado? The fans will be constantly on his back if he were to stay. He could throw a no-hitter and the next game he gives up a homerun they’ll be right back to booing him unmercifully. He wouldnt be able to handle that. Not many pitchers would. Its best he moves on, not only for himself but for Met fans’ peace of mind.
Heilman being a flyball pitcher is sort of a myth. His flyball percentages are actually pretty low.
Still he gets burned by the longball and it could only get worse in Colorado.
Here’s the problem with giving Heilman a chance to start:
1. Chance of him actually doing well is very low.
2. The Mets aren’t in a position to let him grow and develop into the position, otherwise they’d give the spot to Niese.
3. If he doesn’t do well then he really has no trade value where as now, he still has trade value as a potential starter.
Trade value as a potential starter, but we still need to give up prospects in a package with Heilman for a setup man. That’s not really high value for even a #5 starter.
Why is the chance of him doing well very low? Looper and Dempster did very well after years of relief pitching. Especially Looper.
looper did very well? at least dempster was an all-star for florida before converting to the pen. heilman has that one-hitter, though…
That’s nice for them but given his track record as a starting pitcher I’d bet he won’t do well as a starter. Is it wrong to go with prior performance as an indicator, I don’t think so.
But what is is trade value alone now? A low level prospect? Does it matter if that value slides anymore?
Here’s another reason why he’s not a starter: he is a fastball/slider pitcher. A starter needs three pitches, one of which should be a very good changeup. Two pitch pitchers are almost always relievers unless the fastball is in the 97 range.
Umm Heilman has always thrown his change up way more than his slider. So if you’re going to say he has two pitches at least name the right two pitches. He’s always had 3 pitches, actually 4 he had a curve ball but as we all know Peterson beat them out of our pitchers, he just doesn’t usually use the slider, until this year, because there’s no reason too out of the bullpen. He has as much of a repertoire as any of our current in house options not named Johan, and more of one than Niese and Perez..
I would have to say that I am probably (definitely in the minority) one of the loudest advocates for Heilman moving to the starting rotation. Some people point to that one-hitter against the Marlins but honestly, he was rushed up at first and was never really given the chance to get into a groove. It was Peterson and Minaya who basically made the executive decision to keep him in the ‘pen and told him all kinds of lies (yes, lies) to get him to perform. Oh – if you do well in the ‘pen, you can get a rotation spot. Oh – you are too valuable as a reliever, we have to keep you there. In 2006, yes, that was true. I think Heilman would thrive in the starting rotation. He has some fabulous out-pitches that are just wasting away in the BP since he cannot get into a rhythm – ask Joe Janish at Mets Today about those pitches. I know a few of you will say he can’t handle 1-2 innings. True – but he comes in with someone on base and can’t get an out, the pressure is on. If he starts, the pressure is in a sense off because there are zeroes across the board. If Braden Looper (eek) can be moderately successful as a starter, there’s no way Heilman can be any worse. Give him a shot.
If you do that, then Jerry has to say Heilman is our starter for the rest of the year, that way when he has a bad day, you don’t have the media circus asking if he’ll stay in the rotation.
However, I think there are better options for the team.
A name I would like to start hearing from Colorado when heilman is involved Is Aaron Cooke.
Package some prospects with heilman, and scho, and trade for Cooke now.
This gut is an inning eater, and very consistent.
Cook is a weird pitcher. Not bad, he’s actually pretty good, just weird. He doesn’t miss bats, like ever, but his ground ball rate is insane, the problem is with the current state of our infield defense I’m not sure how we would handle an extreme ground baller.
We’ll have the same problem if we get Lowe than….Cook would be a great fit for our number 2
Lowe misses a lot more bats, 79% contract rate vs cooks 88%. So the same problem is there just to a lesser extreme.
He is actually one of the guys I had on my radar this offseason too. I would love to put a package together to get him and Street.
The guy I really would love to steal from their staff is Francis, but even though he’s coming off injury they will not be willing to move him
Although looking at his contract I think the Rockies would want a bit back for him. He’s only costing them 10 million per. Which, in this ridiculous pitching market, is below his market value IMO.
I would not be adverse to getting Aaron Cooke. However, I don’t think Colorado would trade him unless we were shipping them FMart or Murph in that deal. Cooke has been their best pitcher over the last 2 seasons (when not injured).
i like heilman and always have. I believe he will bounce back next year. That said i am worried that mentally he will not be able to handle ny. I mean after the season he had last year the majority of the fans are going to kill him every time out. If the mets decide to keep him however he must be tried as a starter. The kid has good stuff imo and he would have benifited from being sent down last year to work on his kinks imo.
I don’t think the fans are going to give Heilman any breathing room at all. Hell, he’ll probably get booed on opening day at Citi Field when he’s introduced….
Not sure he’s got the fortitude to ignore the booing as Delgado did until he proves he can be effective. Carlos was basically booed coming to the plate every time for the first half of the year. To his credit, he more or less just ignored it until he turned it around….
Get Heilman off of this team.
His face is synonymous with the term “bullpen collapse” as it always has been. If experimenting with him as a starter is the best this team can do to fill the fifth slot, they are in big trouble. Enough is enough with this kid.
Easy for you to say, Johan.
I get paid too much to have to deal with this kid’s droopy, indifferent face every time he gives up a late-inning home run.
Really? Most people would say they are tired of his sour puss (a typo there would have been catastrophic).
hahahaha, too funny!
I have been on the start heilmann bandwagon for a long time. Still on it.
I have no problem trading him (given all the baggage), but only for a solid return (good value). If they can’t get that, let him go for the 5th SP spot.
Really depends on how they fill out the rotation though. I can see them signing 1 guy (or trading for Vazquez) and using ST to sort out the 5/6/7/8 spots.
Say they get Sheets or Vazquez or Lowe.
Santana/maine/pelf/new guy 1-4.
Instead of signing a mediocrity like Garland, let Neise/Heilmann/Vargas/etc. compete for the last spot. One of them will step up.
Heilmann based on his pitch arsenal, size, etc. certainly should be able to start (and he always was before). He really could blossom in the role if given the chance.
Plus, he protects the young guys (neise, etc.) giving them a chance to develop.
Heilman is also in a walk year. I wouldn’t trade a guy like that in a walk year. He is due to bounce back.
If this article holds any sort of truth, the Mets have plenty of options to trade him and should. If they truly want to shake things up, then take the opportunity and shake it up,.
I don’t get you, Johan. Are you worried he will take your #1 spot in the rotation?
Don’t know if this has been discussed. Supposedly Toronto is thinking about moving Halladay. What would the Mets be willing to give up in that case? Heilman,F Mart Kunz,Parnell,Maine and reliever any thoughts?
Giving up Maine doesn’t do anything unless they believe Vargas and Niese can start. However, for that haul, I would like to try and get Alex Rios back as well. Could kill a few birds with one stone (not Toby Stoner).
I always liked aaron until this year, when he turned into the worst pitcher i have ever seen.
wasn’t it amazing? you were more likely to see a gapper when he came into the game than in an interview with michael strahan.
great anaology
If heilman remains on this team then they have learned nothing from the past 2 yrs. Lets also not forget about him single-handely losing the most important game since 86′. All i know is that he is the most hated guy on this team from a fans perspective and hes as average as they come..Great stuff, dont get me wrong, but his head isnt on straight and thats needed for NY. Get him out asap to at least give the fans some hope for a better future
Talk about selling low. Better to give him a chance to rebuild some value.
Yeah, scoring 3 runs in 26 innings or something, against Weaver and Suppan, that was SO Heilman’s fault.
The games are 9 innings!
Oh, I hate Castillo more.
“Jeff Wilpon wanting him to remain and other key front-office personnel favoring a trade”
and that’s the problem with the mets in a nutshell. non-baseball people making baseball decisions.
an owner’s kid has the right to deal with financial items or character issues of an in or out going player, but not the quality of said player
I thought he was given the Cyclones to play with.
i wish that was all
Ironically, this is the reverse of the good trades Omar has made, ie, trading for the guy who has been down but has really good stuff (Sanchez, Perez). And Heilman certainly has good stuff. I bet anything he succeeds with another team, either as a starter or as a set up guy in the pen.
A few years ago in spring training he was given the opportunity to compete for a starting spot. He pitched extremely well but the team gave the spot to Bannister (who also pitched well but who got hurt early in the season). I think they would be best served by having him compete again this spring for a spot in the rotation.
Heilman could be a very good starter but not here in NY, some guys arent met for NY and Heilman is a perfect example
see i don’t agree with this. He was great…. GREAT 2 years ago. He wasn’t even that horrible in 2007. Last year yes he was pathetic. Maybe he needs a change of scenery, maybe he needs an opportunity to start… Don’t say he can’t handle NY because he had one awful season. 2006 he was lights out. 2007 he was very effective. 2008 he stunk.
No, see to say someone can handle NY means they have to be able to handle the bad times as well as the good times. Anybody can handle it when things are going good.
i wouldn’t say this is a case of not being meant for new york. the poor guy gets booed after every pitch that isn’t a strike. granted, he was horrible pretty much the last two seasons, but come on. as fans, we have the right to boo (i’m not going to start that whole conversation up, because it’s ridiculous), but booing a guy before he even fails is outrageous.
Hey I’m all for giving him a tryout as a 5th starter if you don’t move him. His effectiveness as a Reliever has run it’s coarse. Many other guys have made the transition back to a SP and done it pretty well. Looper, Dempster… Heck Even Johan started as a reliever. So if he’s not moved then give him the shot.
You’ve gotta take his stats as a starter with a grain of salt. A majority of his starts came in 2003-04, when he was using the altered delivery taught to him in the minors. ‘05 was when he reverted to the 3/4 delivery that made him a successful college pitcher. He went on to throw a one hitter, (which was a slow roller by one Luis Castillo) and then was sent down the next day.
If the Mets happen to retool the pen to the degree where Heilman has no spot, then I am all for letting him try out for a starters spot.
We need to bring him into spring training again and have him pitch as a starter. Then going into the end of spring training tell him he has the fourth spot in the rotation.
Then pull the rug out from under him and tell him he is a situational guy for the 6th inning and earlier.
The way to break this bronco is to demoralize him completely. Take out ads in the newspapers saying untrue things about him and we want him off the team but we feel sorry for him so we will pacify him instead. Make him carry the candy bars to the bullpen. Bring him in only with the bases loaded and three balls on a batter. When he walks a guy, have Jerry Manual give him a public defacing on the mound. Heck, have Manual pop him in the face on the mound. Threaten all year to trade him to a japanese team. And then wham-o we make the world series and we leave him off of the roster and replace him with Luis Castillo as our sixth inning specialist.
I dont understand why everyone on this comment board is even considering giving in to what this guy wants. He has no place on this team and if they wanted to give him a shot to start he should thank his lucky stars, not complain and “demand” a trade like some reports are saying. I wrote this OT on another post:
Why would anyone listen to anything Aaron Heilman or his agent have to say. As far as I know, he is not eligible to be a free agent until after the 2010 season.
Any “Demand” he or his agent makes for a trade only undermines the Mets chances of trading him because teams now know that he wants out.
Also, after the season he just had he should shut his mouth knowing he is likely going to be traded anyway.
After these comments the Mets should let him rot away in Buffalo on the 40 man roster for the next 2 years, screw Aaron Heilman
sounds like he slept with your sister and didn’t call her the next day. sheesh.
Ok , that was pretty funny…
What would be the problem with having him attempt a starting spot?
Seeing as this “man” is largely responsible for the terrible way our past 3 seasons ended, maybe he should keep his mouth shut and be grateful he’s not down in AAA riding that damn bus.
Deal him to Pittsburgh or KC and let him rot.
I prefer to let him rot in Buffalo so he cant cash in as a free agent in 2 years, show him who has the upper hand.
‘06- Heilman goes down instead of Sanchez, Mets win WS
‘07- Heilman still out instead of Sanchez instead of collapsing in September with the rest of the pen- Mets win WS
‘08- Heilman is not washed up and terrible- Mets win WS
Obviously im exaggerating but the point is still the same
I think you just kind of implied that it would have been better for the team if Heilman had gotten in a debilitating car accident.
(Wow that was an awkward sentence. Maybe I shouldn’t have opted for the pluperfect. Had gotten sounds like a Norwegian food.)
mmmm. fish heads.
HadGotten, not to be confused with Haagen Dazs.
Wow talk about a bitter Mets Fan…. Seesh.
Hahaha saying if he was not washed up and terrible in ‘08 we win the WS. That’s laughable. The entire bullpen is/was awful. They had no reason to be as close as they were. If it wasn’t for Johan and Pelfrey pitching 8-9 innings almost every time out the 2nd half the team would have been behind the marlins. And they stopped using Heilman in August/September. It was every other Reliever blowing games. They blew more 9th inning games then any team in history. He never pitched in the 9th. Blame the entire Pen….
And in ‘07, I do believe the starting pitching is what killed the Mets in September, not the bullpen so much. The bullpen was actually pretty decent in the ‘07 season. Over-worked and tired, but still way more effective then the ‘08 season. The ‘07 Mets rotation was pathetic come late august and September. Brought to a head by the wonderful job Glavine did in his last start. They had a rotation of guys who couldn’t go more then 5 innings. Can’t consistently win with bad outings like that.
‘06 the only reason the Mets were in game 7 of the NLCS was because of how effective Heilman was all year, especially when Sanchez went down. Blame it on the Hitters not being able to hit scrubs. Blame it on a lot of things. That wasn’t Heilman’s fault.
Man you really dislike this guy. Not one season was his fault. The Mets had plenty of opportunities to win the Cards Series and didn’t capitalize on them. So to hold that entire season and series to one bad pitch is a little much.
wow, i just wrote an essay defending myself and it did not post. By the way there was not one thing that could have been confused with a curse.
Bottom Line: I am not saying without Heilman the Mets would be coming off of a 3-peat, that would make me not very intelligent. I am saying he has done more harm than good in the last 3 years and is in no position to be making demands.
Quick recap of what got deleted:
‘06- Sanchez had guts, he wouldnt of hung a changeup to Yadier Molina because he was afraid to throw his fastball like Heilman has proven time and time again
‘07-The bullpen started the collapse and the collective team finished it. Starters were exhausted coming into September
‘08- Heilman was expected to be the bullpen ace after Wagner and he wasnt even in the mix in September. His disappointment was the face of that bullpen. Had he been was what expected, even with Wagner going down the NL East is ours by 3 games
Finally, I am not bitter, I am one to defend ‘08 as a good season and not a collapse considering what the team went through and still fought. I just cant stand Aaron Heilman
Come on man…changeup is Heilman’s best out pitch. He gets the most swings and misses on that changeup…if the sinking fastball isn’t working.
For the sake of not reliving that scenario (Heilman did get cheered on opening day 2007), was it Heilman’s fault that nobody could get a clutch hit against Suppan? The guy walked 5 batters in 7 innings and only gave up 1 run. Come on.
I agree the changeup is his best out pitch. That is why he should not be throwing it 80% of the time. It is the 95 MPH fastball that should be setting up the changeup, not the other way around. If the fastball isnt working then he just throws all 80 mph changeups, which completely defeats the purpose. Anyone who watched this guy pitch that last 2 years (I will give you ‘06 reg season) knows that he is relying WAY TOO MUCH on that change, and it was the same thing for Molina.
I do agree that the last 3 seasons are not his fault by himself as I just said, I am pointing out his flaws though, that does not change. He needs to go and needs to be quiet and let the team trade him, not hurt his chances by opening his mouth.
His number of change balls thrown dropped drastically this year so if you think he was relying on it to heavily this year I’m not sure what games you were watching.
do you have proof of that? He also started using his slider a little bit this year, but out of the games I was watching, it didnt seem to me like the gopher balls he was giving up were on fastballs the majority of the time
go to fangraphs and scroll to the bottom of aaron’s page and they have percentage for pitch types. There’s a few other sites but I’ll be damned if I can remember which ones
Also if you go to mets geek and look under their journals there was a season analysis of heilman. They have the same pitch type data as well as what happened after the pitches were thrown, strikes,balls, hits, outs, homers etc.
better yet, trade him to the oakland raiders.
Yes, trade him to KC or Pittsburgh where out of the spotlight, he rebounds as a very serviceable starter. Than come the trade deadline, he is traded to the Yankees for a bunch of prospects for the playoff drive. He helps the Yankees win the AL East as he is not afraid of pitching in NY……..
I would put him in a deal for Street in a second.
The fans hate this guy. Again he got booed on opening day. It is time for him to move on. If the Mets trade him it will be good for Heilman and good for the Mets. It is time for the Mets to get rid of these guys who the fans just cant stand (Heilman, Show, and of course Castillo). These guys will never win the fans over.
He still has value, if you can trade him for a Street you do it no questions asked. He is not going to be in the Mets rotation he wants to be a starter most fans hate him and it does not look like he has any confidence last season. Last year he looked too worried about blowing the game instead of going out there and just pitching.
This guy killed us in the 2006 playoffs against the Cardinals, at the end of 2007 and all of 2008. NY fans will not get over that even if he came out pitching good next season. Time for him and the Mets to move on. This team needed a good amount of personal changes and if your not going to get rid of the Heilmans and Shows then who?
The fans kill Omar for not making changes but they don’t want the Heilman type players gone?
Correction…Heilman didn’t kill us in that game. He was in his 2nd inning of work. Guillermo Mota and the offense killed us in that series and especially Game 7. We simply couldn’t hit Suppan.
Who cares if he was in his second inning of work. The guy wants to be a starter but what we can’t blame him because he was in his second inning of work. Mota is not on the team anymore. Heilman should be traded just like Mota was last offseason.
Again my question still stands this team after the last two seasons needs a good amount of personal changes, if you are not going to get rid of the Heilmans and the Shows then who?
Show needs to go. He never had any value for this team except for a one month stretch that ended when he walked the bases loaded then walked in the winning run in a game in San Diego.
Heilman can stay because unlike Show, he has had success here in the past and quite honestly, his stuff is much better than Show’s. Giving up on Heilman is absolutely an option, but is it worth it if all you get back is a bench player or middle reliever? Probably not.
and i’m not letting him off the hook for being in his 2nd inning of work. but, the fact remains, if the mets offense scored one run in the bottom of his first inning, wags would have blown the game. we were simply not meant to win that series.
so freakin taguchi took wagner deep and almost cost us game 6 as well. come on. blaming that series on heilman is irresponsible. he is obviously an easy scapegoat if you look at the top of the 9th inning of game 7 in a bubble. however, when you look at that whole series and even that whole game, Heilman is not the reason we lost. If the Cards didn’t score, I am convinced that game would have been 1-1 in the 15th inning.
Exactly as i posted above. People want to blame Heilman for everything. It’s silly.
Yes it’s time to part ways. He wants to start. the Mets won’t give him the opportunity, he won’t be effective as a reliever, so Move him and get a piece that will help.
I agree we have to move the guys the fans hate. That includes Carlos Delgado. I know we all cheered him when he went on the 2 and a half month tear. But this guy is a club house cancer. He is the one who turned on Willie (Tony B’s fault). He lead the revolt. He was the one who couldn’t hit all of the 2nd half of ‘07 and the entire 1st half of ‘08. Win 2 extra games in april and they are in the playoffs.
Show. Feliciano, Heilman, Delgado, Castillo… Gone. Bye bye. Won’t be missed. Bring in guys who actually care. Who are leaders, and club house guys. Not guys who say… “I lead by example not by what i say in the clubhouse”. Yup that was we needed with a team full of guys under 27 for 3 years. What a joke. Send him back to Toronto where nobody cares and he will disappear into thin air again.
I think Heilman is resposible for this economy as well.
I think Heilman hangs out with Dubya.
I am not saying that Heilman is responsible for everything wrong with the Mets the last two seasons. I no our offense did not come through in 06 against the Cards and at times down the stretch last season. But you’re not going to get rid of Wright, Reyes, and Beltran. Who in the offense are you going to replace? Some say get rid of Delgado I say ok I would not disagree with that but who are you going to replace him with?
Heilman played a big part of what was wrong with them this season (more then most in the bullpen since after Wagner he was suppose to be a solid pitcher and was going to be counted on more then the other guys) and the end of 07.
If he stays he stays but again if your not going to replace him and players like him then who is it that you as Met fans want to replace. That is all I am saying. I am not saying give Heilman away for nothing, I would only give Castillo away for nothing.
Guys that need to go:
Luis Castillo, Scott Schoenweis, move Heilman to the rotation, we already are without Wags.
There were plenty of culprits in the bullpen. How about Luis Ayala surrendering a 2-run homer in a clutch spot against the Braves? How about not being able to hold a 3 run lead against the Phillies? How about not being able to hold a 7 run lead against the Phillies? The year before, it was starting pitching. You can blame Heilman all you want for last year. He was horrendous. But please don’t blame him for 2006, as he was a major reason we got where we were.
I got what your saying. But you are coming off as Bitter, and blaming Heilman for 3 seasons of Incomplete teams, and Blaming him for one bad pitch in game 7 of the NLCS. Which isn’t right. And it’s not his fault the ‘07 team has poor starting pitching/overall depth. and the ‘08 team had no bullpen or depth at all.
I agree that he should be shipped out and get a piece in return. Weather it’s Street, or a Closer or a LFer or 2nd baseman, maybe even a catcher.
The only members on the roster that ended last season i actually want back are: Reyes, Wright, Church, Beltran, Johan, Pelfrey, Maine, Murphy, and Tatis but only as a bench guy/spot starter.
I want Heilman, Delgado, Castillo, Feliciano, Show, all gone, and wouldn’t care if Sanchez was shipped out and if Smith was in AAA to start the year.
Sanchez is the only real bullpen piece i would hang onto. Currently he has no value in a trade, and he is coming off a year when it was his first time after a year and a half of surgeries and rehabs.
I agree about Sanchez, but he needs to earn a spot and cant be counted on like he was last year.
I dont agree with getting rid of Delgado unless it is bringing back a closer or starter and we supplement his bat in the lineup with someone who can hit 30 HR’s.
Feliciano is also good when he is not overworked and used against lefties. As long as that is his role, there is no reason to get rid of him. I want to see Ryan Howard flailing at pitches out of the zone from Feliciano again all next year.
Smith needs to be in the bullpen
The rest need to be gone no matter what the implications are. If they wanted to try Heilman as a starter they would have done it by now, Castillo will be killed by the fans in whatever capacity he is used, the guy is useless. and Schowenweis cant be used for anything other than situational lefties, you dont need 2 of those guys.
Any more news? Did the Yanks offer 2 yrs, $40 million to Eckstein?
2 years, i heard 5 years 105 mil.
well worth it.
my favorite yankee signing was Lieber for two years when he already was going to miss the first year with tommy john surgery. that was the pinnacle of the ridiculousness. i did know that hank steinbrenner would spend like crazy after missing the playoffs and running his mouth all season.
Here is my Mets fixer upper.
Trade Maine, Heilman, FMart, and Kunz for Halladay and Rios. Toronto gets a high quality/low cost starting pitcher, a high end prospect, a bullpen arm to setup for ryan, and another SP/RP. Two young, prospect type players and two guys to replace what they are losing off their major league roster.
Live with Murphy at 2B. Sign Eckstein to provide insurance/backup.
Re-sign Ollie.
Get a few more low cost bench players.
Sign K-Rod and Joe Beimel.
Lineup:
Reyes, Murphy, Wright, Delgado, Rios, Beltran, Church, Schneider
Rotation:
Santana, Halladay, Ollie, Pelfrey, Niese or Vargas (or veteran re-tread)
Bullpen:
K-Rod, Beimel, Smith, Sanchez, Feliciano, Ayala, Stokes or Parnell.
And then you woke up!!!!. You would have to include probably Pelfrey and maine with Fmart to get Halladay alone. Forget getting an all-star LFer who’s 27.
Eckstein won’t sign to be a backup.
That still leaves us with an awful bullpen. Unless you see Sanchez and Ayala return to their form from 2006 and parnell turns out to be a Jaba type impact bullpen guy.
In a dream world that would be a great deal. I don’t see Halladay being moved at all and Rios i don’t see either. They asked the Giants For Lincecum last year as a starting point for Rios.
Nice to dream though
That was probably prior to Rios absense of power…in the post-steroid age.
“Aaron Heilman, who had more than 20 starts for the New York Mets before moving to the bullpen in 2006, wants to get back into the starting rotation.
If that doesn’t happen, Heilman’s agent says, then the pitcher would like to go somewhere where he can be a starter again.”
espn
good riddance.
Wow! There are a whole lot of posts for such a simple topic: Heilman. Anyone watching the Mets over the last three seasons knows how far he’s fallen. It’s time for him to move on, start fresh elsewhere. If we can get a good reliever for him, even better. I just can’t imagine watching the 2009 Mets roll out Heilman 80 times. Please, Omar, please…
The guy lost 8 games as a reliever last year. Just awful.
You may not have to. He may be a starter and you’ll only see him 30 times :-)
That’s funny…
But if he averages five innings per start, that’s 150 innings vs. his normal 80 or so. Yuck.
Couldn’t resist! :-)
Guys with ERAs over 5 don’t deserve to get what they want. Be happy the Mets were too desperate to send you down to New Orleans.
I agree he has no place demanding things, but this team has had a need for a starting pitcher to fill the #5 spot for the last 2 seasons because of injury and they have not once called upon him. Maybe he is more valuable in the bullpen, but I would rather he start than the Nelson Figueroa’s of the world.
Where does it even say he *demanded* to start?
Guys as much as I dislike Heilman you can’t blame him for wanting to start. He is nearing FA and with guys like Silva, Mench and now Garland and Dempster signing 4/40+ deals and you think you could start wouldn’t you want to start too? As a FA middle reliever if he is luck he will make 3-5 million. As a #5 starter he will make 8-10 million at least. Thats a 15 million dollar contract compared to a 40 million dollar contract.
wut about to the cards for adam kennedy? i think that would be a perfect fit for both teams..kennedy wants out and so does heilman and im pretty sure he would be a step up from castillo ha
You cant blame him for wanting to start. You can blame him for saying for leaking it to the media asking for a trade and having the Mets position in the trade market undermined. Had he been quiet he likely would have still gotten his wish and started for another team. While that may still happen, the Mets should not be compelled to accept a trade or give up more than they have to for a bigger trade because teams now know that the player has put pressure on the front office
So then you have beef with his agent, not with him. Agents are the guys that go to the press. His agent is probably totally fed up with the Mets incompetence too though.
Contrary to what Scott Boras is alleged to have done during the ‘07 WS, agents dont just go ahead and do things without discussing them with their clients first.
If I had any sort of talent and my agent did something on my behalf without discussing it first, I think he/she would be fired
I agree about the Mets incompetence, but this is not the time to make these statements. His client just came off a year where his ERA was above 5 as a “setup man” when the season started. The mets will do what they can to trade heilman and he has to know that, so making statements like this hurts the Mets chances of finding a trade partner when they were more than likely doing that anyway
If I were Aaron Heilman, at this point I probably wouldn’t care how good of a trade the Mets got for me. It was the Mets decision making ultimately that got the situation to where it is. If they traded him years ago like they should have … we wouldn’t be in this situation.
There comes a point where he and his agent are fed up with the Mets, as they should be.
I agree with how he feels, but if Im Aaron Heilman, and I know I am likely run out of town and traded anyway, why make it more difficult? He has ZERO leverage here, so he can be as mad as he wants. If the Mets decide to let him rot in Buffalo for 2 years on the 40 man roster, they can do that. He is the property of the New York Mets until the winter of 2010
as a matter of fact, if hes not a piece to a larger trade to someone who sees him as a starter, thats what they should do.
Let him become a starter and pitch him in AAA, if hes good enough his value will go up and we can trade him. If hes not, oh well I guess he shouldnt have whined about what he wanted to do when the mets might have been able to use him in a reasonable trade
One thing you have to think of though, is maybe his agent has been quiet about it the past 2 years. Maybe he has expressed it to the Mets quietly and asked for a trade … and maybe the Mets didn’t try to trade him. If one approach doesn’t work … then you try another. I would not call this “whining” though.
I agree with you about making him a starter if there is not a good enough trade. The thing that boggles my mind though … if they have not found a trade they liked in past years when his value was higher … what can they possibly find that they will like now?
See what I’m saying? The Mets REALLY botched this situation up. They are more to blame than the player.
They botched it in terms of having too much confidence in him, not finding a trade so he can do what he wants.
When they made him a reliever at the end of ‘05 and for ‘06 it was because he couldnt cut it as a starter in their minds but he could help as a reliever, and he did, so why would they trade him before ‘07? After ‘07 they should have traded him, I agree, because his value was probably still reasonably high as a reliever, but they didnt because they were confident he would be an integral part of the ‘08 bullpen.
As we all know he wasnt and now the only value he has is to teams who “think” he might be a starting pitcher.
They definitely botched it, but not because they didnt listen to what Heilman wanted, but because he wasnt as good as they thought he was
I think it has more to do with not understanding the psychology of players and varying personalities. They should have been able to foresee that his personality wasn’t right for a late inning relief role. They made the excuse that his “stuff was better suited” for relief but they never took his mentality into account.
If they did … they would have realized that there is only so far you were going to be able to go with him as a reliever. The guy has a starter mentality and that’s never going to change. You can’t force someone to change their personality.
So … if the Mets knew that … they would have had every reason to trade him before 07. I’ve been saying it since 06 so it’s not like I’m playing Monday morning quarterback. The Mets are a professional baseball team with experienced people who should have realized this.
i cant say I advocated trading him after ‘06, but that is your point and it is a valid one. He had a great deal of success after Sanchez went down in the reg. season and the team should have capitalized on that looking back.
He should have definitely been traded before the ‘08 season and they should have seen that. Between his struggles late in ‘07 like the rest of the team and his previous offseason comments about starting, they should have realized his time here as a reliever were up and did something then.
I think we agree that they waited too long and now are in a spot where they have to give in to him and let him start (But not at the expense of the team, if need be let him pitch in AAA) or trade him for the highest possible value. If they cant get value for him though it is their right to live with their mistakes and make him do whatever they want to pay him to do until winter ‘10.
Yeah, I agree with that. It’s an unfortunate situation to say the least.
I certainly don’t blame him. In fact, I would have insisted on a trade long ago.
Omar should not sell low on this guy. Heilman and a prospect for Street is overpaying. He has a high ceiling, and we have seen him have geat success, which I think is being overlooked because 2008 is fresh in our minds. If they do keep him, I hope he gets off to a good start and gets the fans behind him, ala Big Pelf in 2008, which might instill some confidence in the guy. Have patience!
Not that I disagree with some of what you’re saying but he’s like 29/30. I’m not sure he has a high ceiling, maybe if he had been allowed to stick it out as a starter back in 05/06.
you can’t compare Pelfrey and Heilman
Pelfrey was never booed every time he steps on the mound. How can anyone pitch well like that. Even if we don’t get anything back in value its addition by subtraction.
How about Castillo, Heilman and a prospect over to Pittsburgh for Freddie Sanchez. We’d have to eat most if not all of Castillo’s contract though.
I would rather have Pedro back pitching as a starter then Heilman.
Let him start so he can unleash the Heilman face after Duaner blows his leads in eighth…
But seriously, this will show what he is made of, let’s not forget that we were forced to watch Lima time and Chan Park’s amongst others meaningless starts over and over again…
citifield looks beautiful, but there is zero foul territory. i can see a significant increase in offense over shea stadium.
sign k-rod, cruz, beimel.
trade heilman. don’t re-sign pedro.
Gina,
What I meant by my comment, is that we’re all hearing Derek Lowe rumor’s, right? How old was he before he got an opportunity, figured it out, and succeeded? About as old as Heilman!
I love it.
This guy stinks. He’s a large reason this team has been a failure 3 years running.
And he now has the temerity to f**king whine.
But somehow to you homers, Heilman is some sort of victim.
And your solution is to give him even MORE innings to stink up the joint, to implode, to allow more majestic HRs.
WOW
This team will win when it gets real fans and not instinctive homers.
What the …. is a homer?
yeah lets make him a starter so he can give up gopher balls for 6 innings a game as opposed to the 1 inning a game he has now
First thought upon reading the story: Aaron,stfu!
Is he kidding or what. You were a TERRIBLE Starter
and was saved from being a bust when moved to the
bullpen where after a real-good season you began to stink-up
Shea in the post season and got SO bad by late last season that,
even as a long time die-hard I began to laugh out loud at your/
our ineptitude.
Please,Omar, Give him his wish, Let him start. In Kansas City.
The best thing for us to do is to get krod now, then trade heilman and a prospect (other than fernando martinez, jon niese, brad holt, or bobby parnell)for huston street, then go out and get perez and lowe. if there is any money left over, get a 2nd baseman to replace luis, he’s awful
IT’S TIME FOR THE METS TO TRADE AARON HIELMAN BEFORE HE SUFFERS A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN, SERIOUSLY THOUGH IF THEY ARE GOING TO TRADE HIM NOW IS AS GOOD A TIME AS ANY WHILE HE STILL HAS VALUE.
HIS RECORD MAY BE TAINTED BUT BASEBALL GM’S KNOW A 95 MPH FASTBALL DOESN’T GROW ON TREES, THAT SAID, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PKG HIM FOR SOMETHING SOLID.
I THINK AT THIS POINT HIELMAN IS IN NEED OF A NEW ENVIRONMENT, HE HAS TAKEN A POUNDING PSYCHOLOGICALY AND IF YOU ASK ME I THINK HE’S A PRETTY TOUGH COOKIE, BUT BEING BOOED WHILE WARMING UP IN THE BP IS MORE THAN ANY PITCHER CAN TAKE.