Comments on: Minors: Kunz and Murphy in the AFL http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/ MetsBlog.com features the latest Mets rumors, player movement, and news circulating around the Internet, as well as Mets related insights and opinions by Matthew Cerrone and his team of guest bloggers. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:49:40 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Tidewater http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393392 Tidewater Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:49:57 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393392 You're not. I remember it too. And I also remember thinking, why are we using our top pick for a guy who might become a relief pitcher. I think you draft starters and if they don't make it, then you convert. This whole relief specialist thing is wreaking havoc on baseball IMHO You’re not. I remember it too. And I also remember thinking, why are we using our top pick for a guy who might become a relief pitcher.

I think you draft starters and if they don’t make it, then you convert.

This whole relief specialist thing is wreaking havoc on baseball IMHO

]]> By: Tidewater http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393387 Tidewater Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:44:51 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393387 Just because our drafting is terrible doesn't mean we shouldn't care about them, we should improve our draft system! I think people will talk more about Havens, as he was hurt this year. But this team is terrible at drafting. And has been for years. Jason Tyner???? Not willing to pay above slot has something to do with it, but scouting and philosophy seems to as well. Just because our drafting is terrible doesn’t mean we shouldn’t care about them, we should improve our draft system!

I think people will talk more about Havens, as he was hurt this year.

But this team is terrible at drafting. And has been for years. Jason Tyner????

Not willing to pay above slot has something to do with it, but scouting and philosophy seems to as well.

]]> By: Gina http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393383 Gina Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:42:37 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393383 Ugh most scouting reports I read at him right after the draft said that he, and most of our other picks outside of Moviel and Vineyard from that draft, were expected to be drafted hoping they would be players like Joe Smith, quick paths to the majors. I can find a couple links, including one from this blog itself but obviously we can't link in here, that said we should be looking at him to compete for a bullpen job out of spring training in 08. But my question to you would be what would be the point of them spending a first round pick on a part-time pitcher in college if they thought he was going to take 3-4 years to develop and still only be a bullpen pitcher? If that was their thinking then there's something wrong with their drafting strategy, because they might as well have taken a starting prospect. Or are you saying they drafted him thinking he would eventually be a starter? I tried posting this with the links and it keeps getting eaten. I'll try again later. But I promise I'm not making it up. Ugh most scouting reports I read at him right after the draft said that he, and most of our other picks outside of Moviel and Vineyard from that draft, were expected to be drafted hoping they would be players like Joe Smith, quick paths to the majors. I can find a couple links, including one from this blog itself but obviously we can’t link in here, that said we should be looking at him to compete for a bullpen job out of spring training in 08.

But my question to you would be what would be the point of them spending a first round pick on a part-time pitcher in college if they thought he was going to take 3-4 years to develop and still only be a bullpen pitcher? If that was their thinking then there’s something wrong with their drafting strategy, because they might as well have taken a starting prospect. Or are you saying they drafted him thinking he would eventually be a starter?

I tried posting this with the links and it keeps getting eaten. I’ll try again later. But I promise I’m not making it up.

]]> By: Gina http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393369 Gina Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:25:16 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393369 I agree Mark, if anything Pelfrey right now Pelfrey is sort of an example of the problems with our developing of players. We took a great college pitcher, and for some reason made him get rid of what made him a great college pitcher his best college pitch and then yanked him up and down through levels and into the majors way before he was ready. When we drafted him he looked like a player who would eventually be an ace or high #2, now he's looking more like his upside is a high #3. Which would be okay if it wasn't for the fact most of his issues came from unnecessary tinkering and trying to rush him. I agree Mark, if anything Pelfrey right now Pelfrey is sort of an example of the problems with our developing of players. We took a great college pitcher, and for some reason made him get rid of what made him a great college pitcher his best college pitch and then yanked him up and down through levels and into the majors way before he was ready. When we drafted him he looked like a player who would eventually be an ace or high #2, now he’s looking more like his upside is a high #3. Which would be okay if it wasn’t for the fact most of his issues came from unnecessary tinkering and trying to rush him.

]]> By: MudvilleNine http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393368 MudvilleNine Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:24:10 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393368 Sounds to me thats exactly what they did to him, messed with his mechanics, not to mention rushing him through. If Wagner wasnt injured would Kunz had ever seen the big club last year? He would have been given a chance to see what he can do this year in ST but going to AAA with an eye on him to join the bullpen in 2010. The "suppose to be a quick turn around power bullpen arm" I havent seen from anyone but you Gina, though I'm not saying you didnt see it somewhere. Thing is in college he was a position player they used in the ninth to save games. He wasnt a fulltime pitcher and they knew this when they drafted him. That in itself would mean it would take a while to hone his mechanics and his control. Though he may not make it, I would still give him some time. Sounds to me thats exactly what they did to him, messed with his mechanics, not to mention rushing him through. If Wagner wasnt injured would Kunz had ever seen the big club last year? He would have been given a chance to see what he can do this year in ST but going to AAA with an eye on him to join the bullpen in 2010. The “suppose to be a quick turn around power bullpen arm” I havent seen from anyone but you Gina, though I’m not saying you didnt see it somewhere. Thing is in college he was a position player they used in the ninth to save games. He wasnt a fulltime pitcher and they knew this when they drafted him. That in itself would mean it would take a while to hone his mechanics and his control. Though he may not make it, I would still give him some time.

]]> By: Gina http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393366 Gina Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:21:33 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393366 Because you need them to sustain a franchise, or at least a winning one. It's not that we shouldn't care about draft picks it's that we should be up in arms about the horrible states of our current scouting/drafting/developing strategies. Instead fans buy into the hype and excuses and/or see one decent player, Murphy or Pelfrey, and as-sume everything's okay. Because you need them to sustain a franchise, or at least a winning one. It’s not that we shouldn’t care about draft picks it’s that we should be up in arms about the horrible states of our current scouting/drafting/developing strategies. Instead fans buy into the hype and excuses and/or see one decent player, Murphy or Pelfrey, and as-sume everything’s okay.

]]> By: MudvilleNine http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393359 MudvilleNine Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:07:25 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393359 So the question becomes, why worry about draft picks? He was our first pick that year and nobody likes him so what does that say about our scouting and our drafting? Davis, Havens, and Holt this year and the only one talked about is Holt and thats not as a starter, as he was drafted, but as a bullpen guy. If our drafting is so bad (and forget about paying over slot cause that has nothing to do with the scouting) why should we care about draft picks? So the question becomes, why worry about draft picks? He was our first pick that year and nobody likes him so what does that say about our scouting and our drafting? Davis, Havens, and Holt this year and the only one talked about is Holt and thats not as a starter, as he was drafted, but as a bullpen guy. If our drafting is so bad (and forget about paying over slot cause that has nothing to do with the scouting) why should we care about draft picks?

]]> By: Gina http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393355 Gina Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:56:24 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393355 I agree 100% with most of your post mark, especially the part about drafting relievers hopefully one day our front office will get this through their heads. But the problem with Kunz is not only is he a minor league relief prospect, he's one with huge command issues and poor k rates for a reliever, and his only really developed pitch is a sinker which is a contact pitch which means he's going to be a guy who puts a lot of balls in play, something you don't really want from a reliever. I imagine even with the saves and ERA that stuff puts him near the bottom rung of minor league relievers. Just for a contrast look at a guy like Jose Ceda's minor league numbers, who baseball prospectus had as a 4 star prospect even though he's a minor league reliever. I agree 100% with most of your post mark, especially the part about drafting relievers hopefully one day our front office will get this through their heads. But the problem with Kunz is not only is he a minor league relief prospect, he’s one with huge command issues and poor k rates for a reliever, and his only really developed pitch is a sinker which is a contact pitch which means he’s going to be a guy who puts a lot of balls in play, something you don’t really want from a reliever. I imagine even with the saves and ERA that stuff puts him near the bottom rung of minor league relievers. Just for a contrast look at a guy like Jose Ceda’s minor league numbers, who baseball prospectus had as a 4 star prospect even though he’s a minor league reliever.

]]> By: Gina http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393349 Gina Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:49:32 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393349 I didn't realize one game represented a players entire abilities. And yes Utley is that good at fielding. Most defensive metrics have him as like the 2nd best full time second basemen in the majors. And people look too much into errors, obviously not making errors is important but what's more important is range. If a guy gets to 100 balls out of 150 that he should have gotten too but makes 0 errors is he better than a guy who gets too 130 of those 150 balls but makes ten errors? The guy with ten errors still saved you 20 more base runners than the guy with 0 errors. Obviously it's not as simple as that but that's why errors are a poor way to measure defensive ability. I didn’t realize one game represented a players entire abilities. And yes Utley is that good at fielding. Most defensive metrics have him as like the 2nd best full time second basemen in the majors. And people look too much into errors, obviously not making errors is important but what’s more important is range. If a guy gets to 100 balls out of 150 that he should have gotten too but makes 0 errors is he better than a guy who gets too 130 of those 150 balls but makes ten errors? The guy with ten errors still saved you 20 more base runners than the guy with 0 errors. Obviously it’s not as simple as that but that’s why errors are a poor way to measure defensive ability.

]]> By: mark4212 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393348 mark4212 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:49:08 +0000 http://www.metsblog.com/2008/11/25/minors-kunz-and-murphy-in-the-afl/#comment-393348 I wasn't attacking you personally. I was directing it to all the people who are saying move him. he's a bum. Most Minor League pitchers who aren't SP have no trade value, if at all. Why would they. Most Closers are Failed Starters. Mo was. Hoffman was. Lidge Was. I think most were. I don't know if he will be an impact at all, this year or ever. You never know. But that's the problem with Drafting relief pitchers. That's all they can be, and that's why i'm typically against it when i see it. Because if he can't get out major league hitters as a reliever then he's useless. If you draft a starter, and he can't get them out as a starter, at least you can try him in the relief role. Just my thinking. Let this guy go in AAA. See if he has anything. Maybe another year or 2 of seasoning and he's on a big league roster. I wasn’t attacking you personally. I was directing it to all the people who are saying move him. he’s a bum.

Most Minor League pitchers who aren’t SP have no trade value, if at all. Why would they. Most Closers are Failed Starters. Mo was. Hoffman was. Lidge Was. I think most were.

I don’t know if he will be an impact at all, this year or ever. You never know. But that’s the problem with Drafting relief pitchers. That’s all they can be, and that’s why i’m typically against it when i see it. Because if he can’t get out major league hitters as a reliever then he’s useless. If you draft a starter, and he can’t get them out as a starter, at least you can try him in the relief role.

Just my thinking. Let this guy go in AAA. See if he has anything. Maybe another year or 2 of seasoning and he’s on a big league roster.

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