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In the New York Post, Mike Vaccaro says, “The Mets should start acting like they belong in the varsity league by addressing their lingering needs with the most tried-and-true method possible… By spending their money.”
I dislike this argument. Yes, i agree with it. But, I think it’s very easy and presumptuous to haphazardly spend some one else’s money, from a check book we do not have access to.
I mean, sure, I would love for the Mets to just cut Luis Castillo, eat his $18 million, trade for Jason Marquis, sign Orlando Hudson, Derek Lowe and Manny Ramirez, and be done with it.
However, like it or not, I know this will not be happening. I wish it would, but it isn’t, for whatever reason – whether because of roster space, logistics, character issues, or available cash, it just isn’t in the cards.
So, instead of writing easy, emotional op-eds about what the Mets should do, I am far more interested in why the Mets do what they do. Why are they opposed to spending like the Yankees?
I understand why they had to spend less 10 years ago. But, now the Mets also have a successful regional sports network, they also have a new stadium, they also play in New York City, and also charge a fortune for tickets and hot dogs.
So, what is it? What’s the difference? Is it a lack of capital, is it outside forces we are unaware of, is it the team’s minority owners, is it personal preference?
The thing is, I’m fine with any answer, because it’s their answer, their money and their decision. I won’t argue against it, judge or criticize it, because what do i know.
However, as a fan, as a customer, who spends a ton of time and money helping to support their business, spending money on tickets and TV time, popcorn, pretzels and parking, only to drive myself crazy every fall, I believe you and I have earned some sort of response.
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word
You’re crazy. If the Mets have the resources, and as you point out, they really should, then they should spend that money to put the best team on the field.
Anyone can hate the Yankees, or their fans, but as long as the rules allow it, they can and should spend whatever it takes to win.
And the Mets should too.
Go get Manny.
I don’t want my team to buy a Pennant, lets leave that to the Yankees, the most hated franchise in sports. For good reason.
It’s unseemly and it usually doesn’t wotk anyway.
Improve the team through the farm system, trades, and then top off with a free agent or two.
And I sure as heck do not want Manny.
NO MANNY!
I’d like to see what the Yankees revenues are compared to the Mets.
i dont know where to find the exact numbers, but i’d be extremely surprised if the mets were even in the same ballpark as the yankees. yes, the mets play in ny, have a network, etc.
the mets still have far fewer fans than the yankees do. each fan brings in revenue in ratings, merchandise and occasionally ticket sales.
more importantly, while the mets are no doubt a national brand, and i’ll even go as far to say a continental brand (though that’s a bit of a stretch) the yankees are a WORLD-WIDE brand. they have a partnership with japanese baseball, for example. you wont find mets gear in taiwan, but i guarantee you’ll still find a yankees hat. the only sports brand that might bring in more worldwide revenue is Manchester United.
that is a huge difference bringing in revenue from the world, in comparison to the mets.
now that doesnt mean the mets cant spend like the yankees, but it does mean the yanks have a far easier time doing it.
Totally agree. When tourists come to NY, they don’t buy Mets hats, shirts, and tickets, they buy Yankees gear. Plus, I’d bet the money the Yankees make at the ballpark more than doubles what the mets make at the ballpark.
that would change with manny on the team
That would make sense if it were true..
MLP properties controls all merchandising and revenues are split equally between all teams. So the Yanks dont benefit more when more of their gear is sold.
the only place where NEW York Yankees benefit on sales is direct sales through their team store and Stadium sales where they act as concessioner.
Very true. A lesson to Mets fans: If you’re going to buy Mets merchandise, buy it directly from the team store at the stadium, that way the cash goes to the team and not a revenue pool.
Actually, I think the big difference would be in television revenues. I don’t know the numbers, but I suspect the Yankees get a lot more money from YES than the Mets get from SNY.
every year, Forbes releases a profitability report for each MLB team..believe it or not, though they generate the highest revenue, the Yankees actually operate at a loss, while the Mets have either the highest or 2nd highest profit, next to the Red Sox…I think these are solely baseball operations, meaning that YES and SNY are not factored into the analysis
Since Forbes has no access to the teams’ financials, that list is pretty much all speculation and estimation.
“Selig had told Congress the previous December that major league teams had collectively lost $232 million, with only nine teams posting an operating profit — yet Forbes reported an operating profit of $75 million for the teams overall, with a full 20 of them profitable.”
So someone is clearly lying.
Also, YES and SNY provide revenue-sheltering opportunities for both teams, so who knows.
Hey keep in mind as a Mets fan you are most likely paying for part of the Yankees salary. If you have cable and the YES Network is part of the package you have, you you are paying for it. Cable companies use to have the sports channels as an additional fee, Know if you want SNY you get YES. If you want YES you get SNY. If you are not a sports fans at all, but like other channels you are paying the Yankees or Mets. The economy stinks,. People are lossing there jobs and life savings. As a consumer, we should have the right to pick and choose one or another. Not forced to buy both. If these teams have this much money, they can build there own field to play on. If they don’t want to charge them rent like any other company or business.
SNY will pull this post.
bet that wont happen at all. you people are nuts, how many times has Mat stated that “SNY has NO control over the content of this site”
leave the consipracy theories at home…
Wow, Biggie – join us in the real world. SNY does not edit or veto stories posted by Matt. Leave the conspiracy theories to the nutjobs.
Matt, we need a MetsBlog petition!
We demand Manny!
Write it and they will sign!
NO MANNY!
YES MANNY!!!!
if we appluad them for spending money, we can criticize for not spending money.
We still don’t know what the full impact of the Wilpons’ losses with Bernard Madoff are. The Mets keep saying everything is fine, but it’s possible that problem is creating extra pressure.
not a bad point, but the mets had a budget long before the revelations about the ponzi scheme came out in the press.
The owner lost a pile of cash and everyone here thinks it’s business as usual.
Fail.
It would be a crime if the Wilpons were to let Madoff interfere with ‘baseball’ operations. It’s for the fans, too.
matt, you and vacarro are exactly right. the correct path is clear…why cannot/will not the wilpons SEIZE THE OPPORTUNITY? bottom line, it comes down to how much they want a world series…as in NOW. the answer is lowe, manny and ohud….period. in fact, with “just” adding lowe and manny, the mets could actually take a chance on slappy castillo.
Matt:
Your article hit the nail on the head. As fans we play with the money of owners as it was ours, that said I truly believe the mets will get that 4th starter Lowe or Perez and manny. Why because this has turned into a waiting game some wait and win others wait and lose. Come Jan 14 Manny and lowe will be mets
Merry x-mas love your articles and keep up the good work.
wow matty going for the juggular there lol. Its gotta feel good as a yankee fan that their organization basically gave the middle finger to mlb and signed everybody to make their team competitive. Then again the yankees are the most or one of the most recognized and storied franchises in all of sports. They got the money to blow. I am not going to get into the mets and how they spend or what they do because i dont know any of that. Bottom line here is you can buy all the people you want to buy, at the end of the day you can have a allstar team on paper but you still got to win and unfortunatly the yankees have yet to learn that lesson.
but manny is a PROVEN CLUTCH WINNER THAT CAN RAKE BETTER TAHN ANYONE….oh and by the way….he plays leaft field…he is a righty….and he is a LEGITIMATE CLEANUP HITTER. no brainer.
Manny is a cancer. The owners here saw what he did in Boston and refuse to reward that kind of behavior in baseball. As much as I would love Manny’s bat in our line up I am Ok with ownership making a statement on character.
Let it go.
Manny will NEVER be a Met.
Amen, brother.
Manny is an a-hole
Matt — you have the type of access and resources to ask and publish the answer to that question.
What are you waiting for?
Matt,
How about instead of spending like the Yankees, lets trade with the Yankees. With their surplus of outfielders, I was thinking about the “Return of the Xman”. He would look great in left field. He should hit around .280 and belt 25 hrs. I can’t imagine it would cost us too much in prospects.
i dont think mets and yanks match up well for a trade, unless they’re willing to take some single a prospects.
i like nady, but he would make NO difference in the standings. manny WOULD….guarenteed
MAN-NEE!
can i just mention that i dont want manny to ny, not because of his attitude or salary but because i dont think his knees will last another 2 years?
and why do you think that?
he’s had a history of knee problems, would be playing in a much larger outfield than fenway, and is not the most in shape athletic guy out there. after alou, i’d be careful.
you know whats sad the Mets havent had a better record than the Yankees since 1990.
i know it really doesnt make a difference how we stack up against the Yankees but when some people on here post “well at least we’re not the Yankees” i just dont get it
well the yankees are the most successful team in baseball and all of sports for that matter. If you dont want to be like the Yankees than what do u want b/c a big market team with 7 postseason appearence is 46 years is pathetic.
The Yankees win, we don’t. I’m not saying we need to spend anywhere near 400 mil but is 50 million for Manny, Lowe and a few other pieces that much to ask for??
I agree with you.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me the whole “at least we’re not the Yankees” thing is a reflection on their fans. I hate their fans. Their sense of entitlement is appalling. I can’t spend quality time with a Yankee fan during baseball season, because every one of them that I know genuinely feels every season that anything less than a World Championship is a failure. EVERY SEASON! They find no joy in the journey, only in the destination. Completely unrealistic. I can only hope that Matt’s wife is an exception to this phenomenon.
I also agree with you. I’m feeling very agreeable today.
I agree. I enjoy the journey as well. That’s what being a baseball fan is all about for me. I wish we’d won more championships, but I enjoy the competition of a season unfold. I typically like our teams that are cleverly put together win or lose more than I like our store bought ones. My favorite Mets have always been the homegrown ones, not the imported ones.
I don’t want to buy championships, I want to build them.
I may be in the minority around here on this subject, but it has always been this way for me. I think that’s why I never look to the Yankees with envy. The closest I ever did was when they were winning in the 90s with a ton of homegrown talent.
I’m with you.
Let the Yankees repulse everyone else with their greed.
The Mets are better than that.
you know, that sense of entitlement seems to be increasing among mets fans…
Just to provide another view: my experiences have been the polar opposite of yours. After the Sox have taken 2 titles and the addition of ARod has done nothing, all of my Yankee friends recognize the difficulty in reaching and winning a world series, regardless of payroll and player acquisitions. They don’t believe that anything less than a world series is a failure simply because they’ve been let down recently and now recognize that many things can happen over 162 games.
Not winning a WS in 8 years with by far the biggest payroll in baseball every year is successful??
The Yankees are just not a franchise we should model ourselves after…
making the playoffs every year is successful. what happens after that is something of a crapshoot.
they’ve been in the playoffs 13 out of the last 14 seasons and have consistantly been a WS contender over the past 15 years.
what team in baseball is more successful than that??
I’m glad someone here gets it.
Thank you!
Check those records…they had a better record in 2000…and the same exact record 2 of the last 3 years.
ah i did forget 2000 but they beat us when it mattered most
and yes they had the same record in 08 and 06 but they key word is better
I want to be like the Yankees of 2000, not the Yankees of 2008. I think every team should strive to achieve that.
we’ve had enuf of the “journey” and second place, second rate, and second etc…….
we NEED manny to get over the hump into the WS. hey wilpons: let omar be omar!!! let him sign manny!!!!!
If you’ve had “enuf” of the journey than you’re really not a fan of sports, you’re simply a fan of winnng. There is a difference you know. If calling otherwise “settling” helps you sleep better more power to you.
I can only imagine your horror if you’d become a Red Sox fan in 1919, or had been a Cubs fan for the last 100 years.
Spot on! It takes no heart or soul to be a fan of winning.
That said, it is fun to win!
What you mean is you have been told not to question the Mets spending…
Oleosmurf…check your records there buddy. The Mets have had a better record than the Yankees several times since 1990, and the exact same record two of the last 3 years.
Bigger picture, spending like the Yankees has got the Yankees as many Championships as the Mets for 8 years and counting. Instead of drooling over their irresponsibile, reckless spending spree like everyone else in the media, how about we wait and see how it turns out?
The Mets don’t need to “spend like the Yankees”…they have done just fine this offseason being smart rather than bullies.
we’re never going to be the top team in NY but what we can do is get rid of the losing mentality this organization has.
I hate losing, and all I ask for is that the Mets are in a position to win the WS every year.
With no salary cap there is no reason why the Mets cant make the playoffs almost every year.
2 yrs ago, the wilpons apologized to the met fans for the FIRST collapse. they promised they would make it up to us. right. they did that by re-signing alou, el duque, valentin. whoop dee doo. we all know how THAT turned out. NOW, the wilpons have an opportunity to REALLY make it up to us fans…by SIGNING MANNY! give us an offense with swagger…not the usual 1-2-3 and out under pressure. manny is CLUTCH. he will be a sea change that raises ALL boats in the mets lineup. do it wilpons….let omar be omar and sign manny!!!!!
the Mets REALLY do owe it to the fans, after the last 2 HORRIBLE end to the seasons, AND with the excitement and novelty of opening a NEW, state of the art stadium, AFTER playing ugly Shea, to add players and payroll and put a WINNER on the field…
WHY DO WE AS METS FANS EVEN CARE WHAT THE STANKS DO. THEY DO WHAT THEY DO AND FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS THERE HAS BEEN NO WORLD SERIES IN THE BRONX. THE METS NEEDED A BP OVERHAUL AND GOT ONE. THEY NEED AT LEAST 1 GOOD STARING PITCHER AND WILL GET ONE VERY SOON. THE OFFENSE HAS BEEN FINE FOR THE PAST 2-3 YEARS. ITS ALL ABOUT THE PITCHING. THE METS HAVE BEEN JUST A FEW GAMES SHORT SINCE 2006. BETTER PITCHING WOULD HAVE GOTTEN US TO 3 POSSIBLE WORLD SERIES. MURPHY/TATIS, CASTILLO/AND A BACKUP AND ALL THE REST JUST PULL THEIR WEIGHT AND STAY HEALTHY AND A WORLD SERIES WILL BE AT CITI FIELD IN 2009. LETS GO METS!
lol
last night after drunk driving from my future ex-wife’s family’s house I was listening to the FAN. It was call after call about 1) Yankees should sign Manny and 2) the opposite notion that Yankee fans are disgusted about the free spending.
Yankees fans seem to be torn between approving and dissaproval of the way the Yankees spent this offseason. One guy called and said if the Yanks sign Manny that “he is done.”
Some owners are calling the yankees out for spedning like “drunken sailors (wtf?)” and calling for a salary cap in baseball.
One argument is that the yankees have the most expensive new ballpark in MLB history and of course theyre going to fill it with the most expensive players — but the other side is that spending all of this money is ruining the game.
I’m a proponent of going to war with a mixture of home-grown proven players, growing the minors and aquiring fillgaps where necessary. Make this game exciting and interesting — like the Rays getting to the World Series.
and anyone who says that pitching is enuf is WRONG. the current mets offense is older and is quite bad under pressure. 1-2-3 and out. THE BATS WENT TO SLEEP IN LATE INNINGS FOR THE MOST PART. most of the mets runs were scored in early innings with no pressure. delicate beltran, loopy swing wright and slumpilicious delgado CANNOT get it done. manny would be the straw that stirs the drink. SIGN MANNY!!!!!
yuck, another yankees homage
pearls before swine
the yankees might have the highest payroll but they actually make the playoffs and have been legit WS contenders the past 15 years
what have the Mets done??
recently? 2 monumental collapes with the pressure on
I don’t care what the Yankees do. Sure, it’s hard to sit here and watch while they pull all the big pieces together. But that’s about headlines. One of the things about Vaccaro’s article that annoys me is the tone many journalists take, as if what happens in their editorial space is what matters most. As if the appearance of what happens or will happens is the most important thing, and they’re the guardians of it. Who cares? That’s just a writer puffing himself up.
When Mets fans start feeling inferior (or start hearing trash from Yankees fans), we should remember that the reason the Steinbrenners have cleared so much payroll is all the players they’re finally getting rid of who haven’t worked out. Who’s to say that in three or four years, they won’t need to do the same thing and won’t be able to because they’re stuck with long contracts?
Maybe what rankles is that whatever the Yankees seem to need, ownership provides. Starters? Get two, the most expensive on the market. Best all-around position player? Sure. Meanwhile, we’re saying, Let’s sign a closer, trade for another, find one front-line starter and go for a bargain-basement #5, because we don’t want to blow our budget or lose all those draft picks. We sound like poor relations–yet K-Rod got real money from us, and, if we sign Lowe, so will he.
That said, the Wilpons owe us something. Whether it’s a more competitive, exciting journey or a crowning result seems to depend on which fan you ask. But I think we all want to know that ownership was willing to do whatever’s reasonable to give it to us.
but, when we needed that front line starter, no problem: make a sick trade, then sign johan to the then biggest contract a pitcher ever got. when we needed a cf, sign beltran, no problem. we needed a closer, no big deal, sign wags.
it’s not like the team doesn’t spend money!
okay, so i’m disappointed about teixeira, but other than that, what?
lowe, manny, ollie, and o-dawg all have warts. aj has his warts, too. same with cc, whatever anyone wants to say. the guy was mediocre for the first half last year and he’s 350 lbs. that contract was not smart.
krod has warts, but we needed a closer. we had to act.
rushing to pay top dollar before the market reveals itself completely for players with warts is not the kind of free spending we want.
teixeira, that would have been okay, but other than he, who really deserves an open check?
answer: manny
disagree. manny plays only when he wants to, doesn’t run out grounders, plays awful defense, will cost three years minimum, and is an all around malcontent who alienated his entire ballclub in boston. if there was one team that was completely familiar with his contributions on the diamond, it was the red sox. what did they do? trade him during a pennant race.
making up for the slacking on grounders is the fact that he hits like a monster, especially in the clutch.
as for alienating his teammates… that happened after like 8 years. If you bring him in for 3 years tops, his “manny being manny” wont be old when he leaves. The honeymoon of his awesome hitting will still be going strong.
the thing is this: not one fa signing is a no-brainer:
- manny has more baggage than madonna and he will be expensive…oh, and he is a poor defender.
- lowe wants $15m/yr for 4 yrs, but he’s 35 yrs old (or one year younger than pedro)
- ollie, well, we all know his limitations, but he wants big years and pretty big money
- hudson is always hurt
i mean, let’s be fair here. the signing of any of these guys comes with as many cons as pros.
Excellent point. But you can even take that further. Sabathia’s body type and pitching style raise questions about his long-term durability. Burnett is no stranger to the DL. Texeira’s in his prime, but will it last eight more years? K-Rod’s velocity is declining, and his pitching motion puts tremendous strain on his arm. (So why doesn’t Minaya deserve credit for bringing in Putz as a backup?)
Point is, every FA is a risk.
funny, if you look at my response to your post, it’s essentially identical to yours!
Sorry. Don’t know how I missed it.
Honestly, I feel that the Yankees are obsessed with winning. The Mets are obsessed with being profitable. This is a very large difference. The Mets continue to try to put just enough on the field to be competitive while spending as little as possible. This is a smart business model. The Yankees are willing to eat into profits (or even operate at a loss) to try to win. Not such a smart business model, but makes for happy fans.
The Yankees are the equivalent to a coffee shop giving away good coffee at 50 cents per cup simply because it wants everyone to like their coffee more than anyone else’s. The Mets are more like Starbucks, trying to make good coffee so that they can make good profits from it.
“The thing is, I’m fine with any answer, because it’s their answer, their money and their decision.”
By saying this you have jut indicted yourself as never being anything more than a blogger who has no mind and no journalistical ambition or ability. A a site with so many readers and posters you need to start maturing a bit. Anyone can post someone else’s stuff. Its a step forward to be able to make fair and intellectual commentary. Try it. SNY won’t dump you, or will they?
Matt,
The reason why is that Fred Wilpon DOES NOT want to pay the tax levied by MLB for going above the designated payroll limit. The Yankees and Red Sox don’t care but the Mets do.
Look, I’m not going to call Wilpon “cheap” as many fans do. He’s not cheap. The man spends money. The Mets payroll is always in the top 5.
I don’t think Wilpon is cheap. I do think he doesn’t have the stones to make the big money. There’s always an angle. He got K-Rod, but only because his price came down. He’s just too careful.
Why not get Manny? So he’s not a choir boy. Winners and choir boys aren’t always the same. The ‘86 Mets weren’t choir boys, BUT they won.
I think all Mets fans would like to tell Mr. Wilpon to grow a pair, stop wanting to build a team of nice boys and win at all costs.
Get Lowe! Get Manny! Grow a pair!
I agree with what you’re saying, only why do you want them to sign Manny? There is a reason that he has not been signed yet and why the Red Sox traded him when in a pennant race- he is a distraction to teammates- his act would never fly in NY.
What Wilpon et al SHOULD be doing is signing Wolf, Burrell and Fuentes with the 30 million a yr it would take for Manny.
Santana-Lowe-Pelfrey-Maine-Wolf
with K-Rod, Putz, Fuentes, Feliciano, Sanchez, Green and Stokes in your pen
Reyes Murphy Beltran Wright Delgado Burrell Church Schneider/Castro
THAT, to me, would be better than adding Manny, no?
Let’s not make it seem like the Mets dont spend money. In recent years, the Mets have had very high payrolls that are more than enough to succeed. We just need to spend it better. Not every team can spend 200 mil. Not even the Red Sox, and certainly not us. Dont try and play the victim, our payroll is over 100 mil and we’ve already added 2 big name players this offseason.
let’s see….the mets need a left fielder….who is a righty bat…preferable a power bat that is clutch….and a cleanup hitter….and a proven winner…..hmmmmm….let’s see….i know….let’s re-sign moises alou! hey, we have pitching, that’s all we need. YAY!!!!!
seriously…..smell the coffee and SIGN MANNY!!!!!!!!
anyone know what the mlb network costs?? or is it free?
Free on IO cable
I think this would depend on your cable or satellite provider. If it’s a new station that will be included in the package you already have, you’ll get it at no extra cost.
I’ve got Comast cable and when SNY started up, they added that station to the package I already had. They didn’t consider it a paid station I had to cough up more money to get….
I agree that the Mets can’t just react in a knee-jerk fashion and create a bunch of bad contracts, but if the objective is to eliminate the last 2 years from our minds and bring a winner back, signing at least 2 from Lowe, Hudson, Manny, and Wolf is necessary. It’s not a Yankee thing, it’s a beating the Phillies thing. More than anything the Mets need tough, winning, fearless ballplayers. I think these guys fit the mold.
sign lowe then manny please. if not sign lowe and adam dunn and a 5th starter. either way we still have holes to fill to be a legit WS contender.
Sign Lowe And Manny Now and We wont cry about having Castillo for another year
Aybar makes more sense than Hudson, IMO. He’s younger, cheap, and Hudson might become another Castillo. The Mets don’t need an established, overrated and expensive player at 2nd just because Matt Cerrone just happens to know who he is; they just need someone who is better than Castillo, which means almost anyone. And since Castillo’s price is hampering them, they should go inexpensive here and focus on Lowe and perhaps Dunn.
you telling me that we cant get a low level prospect for Castillo even if we pay some of his contract
Even if we trade him for a warm one we’d be paying $17, 999, 992 of his contract.
Unfortunately, I don’t think the Mets want to pay any of that contract, especially after paying $2mil of Schoenweis’ contract to have him pitch elsewhere already…
If we can get anything for Castillo, it’s gravy and good PR. The point is he can’t be playing 2nd base for the Mets in 2009.
Luis Castillo is way overpaid. Who is he comparable to? Maybe a guy like Mark Loretta (2.7M), or Grudzy(4.5M)? Each make less than Castillo. Will Fred willingly eat 10 million to make him valuable to another team. Hardly.
When fans own teams fans win.
When business men own teams, shareholders win
When business men are fans, everyone wins.
Dan Snyder, owner of the Washington Redskins. Businessman/fan/owner…ask the Skins’ fans about “everyone” winning in DC.
I’ve heard that the skins draft poorly.
Snyder is involved in everything (because he’s a fan), including the draft. I lived in DC for 4 years, he’s a nightmare.
BS. I want Manny.
I understand not signing CC or Tex when Santana, Wright & Reyes are signed long term, But Lowe & Manny are short term investments that could pay off handsomely
If I wanted the Mets to be the Yankees then I would root for the Yankees. I’d rather see an improved farm system and some home grown talent mixed with good logical trades rather than buying malcontents like Manny.
I don’t know that this is a choice between Yankees strategy and not-Yankees strategy, but I agree about the farm system and judicious trades.
castillo is still a capable 2B.
is he overpaid yes, but he can still bat .280 and play average defense with an above average OBP.
we need Manny.
when we needed it most, our best players have not got the job done…
i dont care what Manny’s problems were in Boston. He still batted .300 30 HR 100 RBI almost every year and when he went to LA, he was the best player in baseball and he didnt have any protection in that lineup.
Here he’d be batting in between Beltran, Wright and Delgado. pick your poison…
In 2008, Castillo was arguably the worst semi-regular 2nd-baseman in the national league. His only rivals to the title were Damion Easley and Argenis Reyes. Combined, they were 1.5 wins below replacement for the year, or 3.5 below an average player. This means that any scrub called up from AAA-Ramon Martinez anyone?-could have pushed the Mets to 91 wins and a playoff spot, had he played a full season instead of the terrible trio. An average major league 2nd baseman could have pushed the Mets to 93 wins and a division.
I don’t think there is a GM in the world stupid enough to take him for a souflé of steamed poo. He has negative value. I would not trade Jose Coronado for him; Coronado has at least a 1 in 200 chance of being a valuable MLB player in the future. Castillo has no chance and is due $18M.
Why would anyone think that in 2009, Castillo will up his value from -1 WAR to-say-2.5 WAR? That’s a 3.5 win differential. It is the equivalent of saying that Brian Schneider will play like Geovani Soto in 2009. Castillo has been hovering around replacement value since 2006; and there’s no sign that he’s coming back to 2004 levels.
Castillo played horrible defense and hit horribly in 2008. Citing empty batting averages is silly and in no way contributes to the argument. Castillo will get booed off the field in 2009 if Minaya is foolish enough to let him step on it.
Well Matt, you have now in the ranks of “sellout”.
To keep your access to the Mets, you are maiking these statements….Because ANY sane Mets fan would want the Mets to spend money.
Matt, they are already charging OVER THE TOP prices for all of the items you state in your blog. What has it gotten the Mets? 1 playoff appearance in 8 years! 2 choke jobs because the Coupons are not willing to go OVER THE TOP the other way.
Last year at the trade deadline the Mets signed Ayala! Ayala! He was going to secure games for us?
Look at the current roster…Evans? Tatis starting in left field? Do you think Tatis will put up those numbers again?
Manny gives us 35-120 guaranteed!
Lowe is a 18 game winner on the Mets.
Eat the salary of that pond scum Castillo.
The Mets have the money and shoud spend it!
Yeah, lets buy a post-season spot. No need to develop players anymore.
And besides, the Yankees have almost $80 million more in payroll than the next team.
personally, I feel its way too easy to buy yourself a winning team (at least on paper) like Cashman is doing. I would much rather see a team that is built from the ground up and win, even if it means a WS ring once evry twenty years of so.
Besides one can make a case that the Yankees is symbolic of whats wrong with the economy….buy, buy snf buy with no concern or foresight of the future….careless spending. It will catch up with them sooner or later like the endangered corporations.
wait a second Matt, you don’t understand why the Mets don’t spend as much as the Yankees? Really? This is ridiculous. The Yankees, as an organization, make more money, have more money, are worth more money. However you want to put it. They own a bigger majority of YES than the Wilpon’s do in SNY, and have had it longer, meaning, they make more money. I bet all of you just thought the Yanks owned all of YES, or the Mets owned all of SNY. Wrong! The Yanks make more money than the Mets, how hard is that to understand? Tickets at yankee games are going to be a lot more than these “expensive” Met tickets you’re talking about.
If the Mets did sign Manny, having Tatis on the bench instantly makes the bench better. But what do you do with Murphy? You can’t have a kid that young, who is supposedly going to be a position player someday, sitting on the bench. He’s too young not to be working on continued development – whether it’s in the majors or triple A. Personally, I’d hate to see him sent back down now…..
From what I’ve read, his defense playing second in the Arizona league was not all that great. And if they did decide to put him at second, what do you do with Castillo?
Lots of decisions needing to be made…..
if the mets sign Manny than Murphy becomes our primary backup at 1B, 2B, 3B, LF and RF
he will get maybe 2 starts a week at 2B and 2 starts a week at RF yielding him around 350 AB and thats not factoring in injuries…
sure he’ll be a liability at 2B but if he can hit, then thats the risk you have to take
Great idea. Have your prospect as a back up utility infielder.
Forget about OHud..just let Murphy workout at 2B during spring training and sign Lowe and a LF. In a perfect world Manny, but I’d settle for Dunn
Have you ever played baseball before? And if so what position?
it may be that the mets arent spending like the yankees because they have the yankees to look at as a example, how many titles have the yankees won because of record breaking spending?
And how many have they won because they had the right mix of players? both big name, home grown, and role players?
To address manny specifically, sure great bat but he is terrible in the field. And with a team that is heavy with fly ball pitchers that would be a huge problem.
Manny may be the best bat out there, but he may not be the best bat for the mets.
stop thinking single player and start thinking team
manny might be a bad fielder but hes still a better outfielder than Tatis or Murphy
Manny might be only one guy but his bat makes every other bat in the lineup that much better.
teams arent going to pitch as carefully to Wright and Beltran like they have been with Manny in the lineup…
How many playoff appearances have the Yankees made in the last 13 years? What are the attendance figures at Yankee Stadium? What are the Yankees off the field revenue sources? What is the value of the franchise? Which baseball team owns New York? The Yankees exceed the Mets in all of these areas. This is directly attributable to the way this team is run. The Yankees have been successful on and off the field.
Remember that back in the 1980’s the Mets were the toast of NYC and the Yankees were thinking of moving to New Jersey. Since the 1980’s the Mets have lost a lot of territory to the Yankees. Now the Mets don’t have the revenue sources the Yankees do and it is unfair to expect them to spend at the Yankees level. But they owe it to themselves and the loyal fans to put the best product on the field that they can afford. Furthermore, from a business point of view this would allow them to recapture some of the turf the Yankees have taken away from them.
I agree with Darkstar, that no matter how many say it, the Mets do not have the income that the Yankees have.
having said that, the way they need to spend is not to spend indiscriminately, but to seek out their top free agent target and get that guy, not settle for the “best value”. So far they did it with K-Rod. In the past they did it for Beltran. For this years Starting pitchers, CC would have been ideal, but it wasn’t realistic to have Santana and CC; Burnett wasn’t a mets target. If they get Lowe, they are fine there.
I don’t think Manny is just money, so I won’t fault them there. I just don’t want to see anymore Mo Vaughns, or Kevin Appiers.
Manny is coming off a year where he batted .332 37 HR 121 RBI
how is that anything like Mo Vaughn or Kevin Appier.
he’d be batting between Wright, Beltran and Delgado. If he was able to do that after “dogging it” for half a season imagine what he would do at full effort…
But Manny turned it on when playing for a contract. There is no doubt his is a potent bat. But I think it’s likely that he turns back to his Manny being Manny ways, and that’s a problem. He is alleged to have played his way out of Boston for the paycheck. It sure looks like that might be true, and you have to think long and hard about bringing in a guy who would do that. Because if you get the Manny of the Dodgers, you’re golden. If you get the Manny of the Sox in ‘08, you could have a real problem on your hands.
You make it sound as if all the years Manny was with the Red Sox he was a malcontent that hurt the team. I think the success of the Red Sox and Manny individually speak otherwise. Manny has some goals he wants to reach in his career and I believe he would love to do it in New York on the biggest stage of them all.
Recall that Pedro had developed a bad reputation towards the end of his Red Sox career yet we saw none of it here with the Mets. The same may very well be true of Manny.
I don’t think I made it sound that way at all. As for your “The same may very well be true of Manny,” we’re talking about a lot of dollars for a “may be true.”
I’m not against Manny per se, but I do think it’s wise to pause before forking over $$$ and years to a guy who seemed to take a dive to force the hand of his team.
I’m merely urging caution.
Or Vince Colemans.
the mets have plenty of cash, that doesnt mean they should bid against themselves and overpay for players like the yankees have
never said i thought tatis or murphy were the answer
the point i was making was just going out there and throwing money at someone especially when there is no market currently for the player is plain stupid.
Manny wants 20+ mill and nobody is offering it
why should the mets just hand it over?
why? answer: world series
I just cannot except Luis Castillo on this team. No matter how this is spun, he cannot be our starting second baseman. His skills are so far diminished at this point. There are kids that have more pop in their bat than this guy. He can no longer run and his range is almost below average.
From what we’ve seen his clubhouse presence doesn’t seem to inspire the guys and he even may be a negative influence on certain players.
If another team isn’t interested in taking this guy for half price then he has no business being a starting second baseman in this league.
I pray this experiment will be over soon. He clogs up the lineup. Reyes>Castillo>Wright = runner on second 1 out. The whole point of Reyes is that he can run. So getting him to second is not an issue. He can do it on his own. He can’t hit the ball far enough for Sac fly’s and can’t even hit the ball hard enough to score a runner from second on a single.
i dont like castillo either, but i dont think any team at this point will take him on just to help the mets. More than likely if they want him gone they have to take on someone elses problem like guillen from kc
Lets examine this from a business standpoint. In a league where payrolls reach 200 million a season.. A major market money making machine like the Mets can’t take a 7 million dollar loss a year for the next 3 years? Come on.. Anyone know what our payroll is up to next season?
As far as I know we’ve only spent like 8.5 million, which is what the first year of K-rod’s contract is worth, so we’re still like 11 some million below last years payroll, the Putz trade was payroll neutral I believe and that’s not even factoring in the 20 million from Citi.
where did i say they cant take a loss? dont put words in peoples mouths. I said if they opt to trade him they will be hard pressed to find a team that is willing to take him unless they have problem they want to get rid of.
Teams arent exactly tripping over themselves to get a aging oft injured overpaid underproducing part time player on board.
Dude take it easy,, I wasn’t saying you said that. I was just continuing the conversation.
So the question is… Does his lack of production in every aspect of his game warrant just letting this guy go. I think it does. We have no time for games. We need production from the 2 hole.
sorry buddy
back on point, if the mets could get rid of castillo in any sense id be all for it, he barely plays and clogs up a roster spot. And i think omar is working on a way to get that done.
There’s no reason to spend like the Yankees on free agents, but can we at least spend like the Yankees and Red Sox on scouting and the draft?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
Also there’s a difference between overpaying and shelling out cash. AJ Burnetts contract= overpaying, Tex’s contract is slightly overpaying but fair market value for his type of player.
exactly, I agree. spending money on good players who will live up to their contracts is good for the team. sign lowe, sign manny.
not only that gina, but they bid against themselves essentially for cc and tex. With tex the angels were out and so was boston which left the yankees and the nats, boras played the yankees well and got top dollar knowing his client wasnt going to go to a last place team
Boston wasn’t really out of it they had an offer on the table still they just weren’t planning on raising their offer. So the Yankees did bid against themselves to an extent but not terribly.
And I’m pretty certain they didn’t bid against themselves for CC the Brewers had an offer on the table as well that was substantial just shorter in years. From my understanding the Yankees had to bid so much higher because CC didn’t want to go to the Yankees but the player union pressured him into it because of the huge difference in money.
yes the brewers had a offer out there
that was around 40 million dollars less than what the yankees offered.
It was 40 million less because it was fewer years. In terms of money per it was either the same or higher.
Also fwiw I’m pretty sure the Yankees are either just above or right at last years payroll numbers because they had so much money coming off the books. So they’re spending spree hasn’t really been as crazy as it looks. They just have a ridiculous amount of money tied up in a low number of players. A lot of whom aren’t worth it.
for those are afraid of Manny not being happy here.
in 2008 Manny batted .299 20 HR 68 RBI in 365 AB. that still puts him on pace for 31 HR and 111 RBI
Honestly folks, If it took Manny 10 years to get unhappy enough to ONLY put up those numbers, imagine what a content Manny would do
Is he going to put up the numbers he did in LA, probably not but .320 35 HR 120 RBI this upcoming season is very realistic…
I agree, sign manny right now.
Castillo conversation continued….
If Omar can’t swing a deal and get rid of Castillo then releasing him sounds like the best option. Santana will do just fine without him.
If Castillo’s gone then we have some room to play around with. We could get Wiggy for second/utility. or even sign Orlando hudson. All would be major upgrades and won’t cost the 100 mill Manny wants
In 2008, Castillo was arguably the worst semi-regular 2nd-baseman in the national league. His only rivals to the title were Damion Easley and Argenis Reyes. Combined, they were 1.5 wins below replacement for the year, or 3.5 below an average player. This means that any scrub called up from AAA-Ramon Martinez anyone?-could have pushed the Mets to 91 wins and a playoff spot, had he played a full season instead of the terrible trio. An average major league 2nd baseman could have pushed the Mets to 93 wins and a division.
I don’t think there is a GM in the world stupid enough to take him for a souflé of steamed poo. He has negative value. I would not trade Jose Coronado for him; Coronado has at least a 1 in 200 chance of being a valuable MLB player in the future. Castillo has no chance and is due $18M.
Why would anyone think that in 2009, Castillo will up his value from -1 WAR to-say-2.5 WAR? That’s a 3.5 win differential. It is the equivalent of saying that Brian Schneider will play like Geovani Soto in 2009. Castillo has been hovering around replacement value since 2006; and there’s no sign that he’s coming back to 2004 levels.
Castillo played horrible defense and hit horribly in 2008. Citing empty batting averages is silly and in no way contributes to the argument. Castillo will get booed off the field in 2009 if Minaya is foolish enough to let him step on it.
Oops, that comment was in the wrong place. I stand by it though.
First I wanna say hello to everyone. I follow this site religiously.
My biggest problem with the Mets is they just don’t seize the opportunity to have a GREAT team, just an ok team. Like someone said earlier.
Some of the free agent moves they’ve made has hurt this team more, than signing Manny will. They let Floyd go, because he was injury prone, but we signed Alou. We didn’t want to give C. Bradford a 3rd year, but we gave 3 years to Schoenweis(sp?), who the fans NEVER liked. We resigned a guy to a 4 year deal, when we know his knees were very bad..Castillo.
This team has CHOKED 2 years STRAIGHT. We have a chance for a bonified clutch hitter with TWO WS rings, and we don’t even try?
Before we judge the negatives about Manny, why don’t we focus on the impact he had for both the Red Sox and Dodger organization, along with their fans. Can he really make this team feel any worse, than them going thru 2 straight years of collapses?
good post
“they just don’t seize the opportunity to have a GREAT team, just an ok team.”
your right on and its been that way for quite some time.
Every time they can sign someone that could possibly make a major difference(and we know there are no guarantees) they always back away coming up with some excuse not too.
Beltran was not a difference maker if anyone brings him up. Santana was but where they usually screw up is when they need to sign a great position play and usually settle for much less and get just what they bargained for. We’ll see if their thinking changes this time around. No wallet pain , no gain.
I think it’s true that too often this team thinks too small, but i don’t think you can count Beltran in that scenario. He is a difference maker, but his quiet, flashless demeanor minimizes him in some people’s eyes.
No, the bigger problem is the inconsistent nature of their plans. They’ll go big one year, and when that doesn’t pan out they revert to “being creative.” They’ll decide to get younger, but when youth doesn’t serve them for one year they go the aging free agent route.
If they stuck to a plan, they’d be in better shape. If, like last year with Johan, they decided that they wanted to be players on all the big fish, they’d land a CC or a Tex, or a Manny (not all, but they’d have the chance). Or if they decided to stick with youth, there’d be some growing pains sure, but we might still have Kazmir on this team, and who knows who else had they dedicated dollars and effort toward draft and youth. (My personal bias is to go with youth and I’ll suffer through a few years of development to wind up with a Rays-type team, but either way is fine, as long as there is a commitment to a system of building a winner.) The yo-yoing is what keeps this team from greatness, and frankly, it stinks from the head. Wilpon will open the checkbook until he is burned once. But rather than looking at why something didn’t work — as in, did we select the right players to target — he pulls an operational 180.
Also I agree Tidwater, the front office seems to just go year to year and have no sort of long-term plan. we’ve been able to get away with it so far because of free agency and being able to make trades like Santana but eventually it’s going to catch up with us and we’re going to fall apart, especially if teams continue to lock up their young players long-term.
I can’t take anything anyone who says Beltran isn’t a difference maker seriously. Please tell me how many center fielders in the league play defense like he does and hit like he does. In 2006 he had probably one of the greatest season of all time for a center fielder. Even in his early 30s at worst he’s the second best center fielder in mlb to Grady Sizemore.
There is no question Manny is one of the greatest hitters of all time and I would welcome him on my team any day. I think the problem is the money. Plus we have two more spots in the rotation to fill. And are in dire need of an upgrade at second base and cather
Schneider called some of the worst games I have ever seen last season. His game calling ability was beyond over rated.
darth – you cannot quantify wehter or not someone has called a good game or not. how has schneider been bad at calling games?
I still cannot understand how Matt doesn’t realize that the Yankees simply have more money than everyone else. Is it that hard to understand? Is it? How do you not know that Matt? The Yankees are the most valuable team in the majors, by a lot, and they are every single year, there are lists put out by Forbes and the rest that prove this, therefore, they spend more money. Yet you sit here and can’t figure this out? And you devote this long of a post to it? Ridiculous.
Yeah everyone wants to spend money now to keep up with the Yankees but the first thing they criticize them for is spending. Plus, whenever we do poorly the FIRST thing out of EVERYONE’S mouth is “we spend money on the wrong players, lets just build from within”
Can’t have it both ways.
its the bad contracts like Castillo that kill a ball club. Castillo is nowhere near worth the money, and is unmoveable.
The Mets arent going to just release him b/c you’re paying him either way.
Manny is not a bad contract. 2 years 50 million is short enough that, unless he suffers a major injury (which cannot be predicted), he will produce at a high level throughout the entire deal.
who thinks that brad penny is a great solution to the idea of having some competition for the fifth starter role. he is as low risk high reward as it gets. upside he could return to his 2006 form, if he busts in comes jon neise
What if the mets sent, Evans, Parnell, Kunz and Fmart to Toronto for Roy Halladay. Would you do that? I think I would.
Ehh, Halladay is on the wrong side of 30 and will cost serious money after 2010. He’ll be the best player in the deal; and he’ll really help the Mets for about 4-5 years if they sign him; but I would rather have 10 years of cheap production from F!Mart. He’s got a good chance to be truly special, and he’s our guy. And we need a Left-Fielder. If we trade F!Mart for Halladay, that’s 2 expensive players. Again, we don’t have Yankee resources. Still, if Omar has serious doubts about F!Mart, there are far worse deals he could make. (See Lastings Milledge>)
but if we have any chance at a WS title in the next 5 years we are going to need another dominating starter. When we make the WS again,, I want us to be prepared. We were so over matched in 2000, just don’t want to see that again.
Again, there are worse trades they could make, but they already have Santana signed well into his decline, and they will have to do the same with Halladay. Otherwise, they will trade 10 years of cheap–potentially stud–production for 2 years of Halladay, and 2 years is a real crapshoot. Also, I just don’t like constantly trading prospects for stars. I’m tired of it; and I want to see some of our guys play.
Also, Reyes and Wright will hit their paydays soon; and we’ll be looking at $75M in 4 players as early as 2012.
But again, take out the money and thinking pure baseball, it’s probably a fair deal at this point. Martinez still has some bust risk, and Kunz, Parnell, and Evans are meh. Still, I’m not for it. The Mets have stars. They need depth.
orsulak – where are you getting 10 years from?
Agree, and by the same token the same ppl that want manny here, coming july if manny pull a ” manny being manny” before a series against the phillies, they will be asking for his head, the guy can’t be trust to play hard every time out, it will not sit well with other players.
to twofours–okay; six to ten years. 6 years before unrestricted free agency, and 8 years (maybe ten) if he’s a stud and we lock him up early.
Darth, I’m so happy you are not the Mets GM.
Is that really so bad? We need another dominating starter if we ever want to compete for a WS. What do you think is a fair deal for Roy Halladay? just curious.. I’d like to see how off I am..
Agree with jpotts not DM.
You are trading our farm system, we have nothing to fall back, Halladay is a very good pitcher but the price that you want to pay for , is to high, we are good with the rotation that we have plus Lowe/Perez
I think Maine/Pelfrey will be great this year, we need Lowe to stabilized the rotation a low cost Penny should be an intriguing investment, if he fulfill his potential he will be another ace.
Do we really think
Santana
Perez/Lowe
Pelfrey
Main
Neise
is good enough to beat
Wang
CC
Burnett
Jaba
Hughes/Pettite
or even
the Red Sox rotation or Devil Rays. We are fooling ourselves thinking otherwise. This will be our competition for the next 5 years.. If we want any chance, we are gonna need something more than Lowe/Perez. Our rotation might get us into the WS but that as far as that goes.
We have a shot if we get Lowe and a bit lucky. Only 4 pitchers in the WS. Pelfrey and Wang are actually very similar, as are Santana/C.C. and Lowe/Burnett. Joba eats Maine for lunch, but Maine has it in him to compete with the best of ‘em.
With Perez instead of Lowe, our rotation becomes a bust. You can’t put Lowe/Perez in the same sentence. It’s like putting Sabbathia and Ian Kennedy in the same sentence.
when you have the best pitcher in baseball (Santana) you only need a 3 man rotation in the WS
Santana, Lowe, Pelfrey, Santana, Lowe, Pelfrey, Santana.
all you need is 7 innings from your starter and then Putz, K-Rod close it out
Let’s get to the postseason first before we worry about the WS match-ups. You never know who will be healthy at WS time, who might be hot, who might be cold. Build a rotation and team for 162.
Has everyone forgotten the way to a number of championships is through the farm. We should get Lowe (not Perez) and develop Niese. We should develop Murphy and his bat and maybe move him to first next year.
But, to get Manny for 4 years, when in reality he may only have two real good years left, plus this blocks the farm. We have forgotten F-Mart, who many thought would have been here this year, but injuries and lack of playing time probably will put him behind another year.
Any organization that is going to be competative will need to have a good balance between vets and young guys. The Yankee model of ‘96 – ‘00 is a good one. Young guys who were hungry, with wiley vets to provide experience and work ethic. The Yankees may have forgotten the formula for success, but the Mets should learn from it.
Peace :)
DM you r already in the WS, first we need to win our Div. them the next rounds of playoff, WS is like a game of chance, the best team doesn’t always win, you can get a couple of hitters and pitchers hot, and they will carried you the promise land.
I agree completely.. We can’t think any further than our division. If I had it my way we would retool this season. See what we got in FMart/Neise/Murphy/Parnell. Get rid of Delgado/Castillo and use this season as a stepping stone to the future. But Omar seems to always plug holes. So if we are GOING for it then we might as well go big or go home cause this in between game isn’t going to get us anywhere. Either let the youth develop and get rid of the baggage or make a serious play for a couple of big named players.
I want the Mets to sign Andy Pettitte…great psot-season resume.
darth – dude – we need to make the playoff before you descride the AL East as our competition.
i dont see why we as a fan base are constantly concerned with the yankees and use them as a measuring stick. I for one dont care what the yankees do unless we are playing them in october.
Im not completely anti manny but i am however anti going and giving into his demands of 20+ a year right now when no one else is bidding. Id much rather see the team spend that money on pitching and bigger needs
suppose the Mets sign Derek Lowe, what other need is there other than Manny.
2B: we’re stuck with Luis
#5 SP: not more important than Manny
LHRP: not more important than Manny
option 1: Murphy/Tatis, Wolf, Ohman,
option 2: Manny, Redding, Ricardo Rincon
sure Wolf and Ohman are better than Rincon and Redding but Manny is infinately better than our current LF situation
Schneider is god awful too. And thats something that needs to be addressed soon. Pena didn’t develop like we were hoping.. Still very young but he is by no means a sure thing.
god awful??
hes very good defensively and he’s not a good hitter but he’s the #8 hitter, what do you expect??
When we got him,, all we heard was how good he was defensively and how good he was at calling games. Those things did not turn out to be true. He called a few of the worst games I have ever seen a Mets catcher call in the past 10 years. He boxed balls constantly and this became an issue. Do you not remember.. Gary and Keith talked about this extensively.
he’s not great at calling games i’ll give you that, Castro is much better but Schneider has a great arm and plays fine defense.
Castro would be a great catcher if he could ever stay healthy the whole season…
Pettitte 1year/10 or 11M I’m ok with that, but we need Lowe too.
I know this is a pipe dream but if I could have it my way this would be our lineup for a foreseeable future..
Yes I’m bored today….
Reyes
Hudson/Wiggington
Wright
Beltran
Rios
FMart
Martin
lol, second place lineup
I dont really care if the yankees are getting all these free agents because you cant buy a world series… hopefully MLB does NOT put a salary cap.
Nothing wrong with a Salary Cap except from a players point of view.. Its not like they would put the Cap a 100 mil.. It would be much higher than that and wouldn’t effect the Mets.
baseball should absolutely have a salary cap. how are the orioles or the blue jays supposed to make the playoffs???
they’d have to be like the Devil Rays and finish last every single season and draft in the top 5 for 10 years…
No need for a cap. Just limit teams to 2 type A free agents in any given season under any and all circumstances and start a revenue fund to subsidize the contracts of players who stay with their teams when they become unrestricted free agents (say 15%, maybe 20%). That should do the trick.
There are enough examples in recent history that prove a) you can get to the post season with a small payroll and b) you can not sniff the post season with a humongous payroll.
A cap is unnecessary and will only serve to tie the hands of teams like the Mets. The Wilpons aren’t very bright. Why tie an arm behind their back as well?
Lol. That’s the first thing I think everytime I hear mets fans say anything about a salary cap. Do you really want to compete with the Marlins and Braves on an, or at least close to, even playing field every year? Cause I know for a fact I don’t. Never mind teams that draft and develop talent well, like the Brewers and the Padres.
a cap alone wont solve anything
like a coin there is two sides, if there is a cap there must be a floor
guys like loria are a bigger problem than anyone gives credence to.
why shouldnt teams do what the rays did? put a good staff in place, draft well and grow a team that can compete for years. Sure it took the rays a few years of being bad but look at them now, they are competing and not scared to spend within reason.
I think Schneider isn’t very good and is way overpayed. But what better options are there? Varitek is just as bad, won’t cost less, is older and will cost a draft pick. And Pudge is older and kind of crappy.
a salary cap would be good so the mets dont look so second rate to the yanks
what a banana…. that has to be one of the dumbest comments ive read!!!
its true
What happens if the Yanks don’t make the playoffs again.. you think they are going to rethink spending? No they are going to continue to add and add until they are stopped. Luckily Cashman has made some terrible signings that haven’t worked out but if these guys have an unlimited budget eventually they will find a group that can gel.
Plus how would a high salary cap even effect the Mets? We don’t have a 200 million dollar payroll. Its not like spending has gotten us anything but heartache anyways.
No one is going to want to play for Baltimore or Toronto ever again. Thats the black hole and black eye of major league baseball.
They have no chance.. they would have to spend the next 7 years collecting draft picks and hope and pray they turn out to be studs to even have a fighting chance. Just look at Kansas City.. They’ve pretty much had a top 5 pick for the last 20 years..
We need to remember our only two WS titles were on the backs of home grown, gritty ballplayers. So a salary cap would only put more focus on scouting and our farm. Thats a good thing.. Players will start to have pride in there teams again and it would end up being more of a family than this Gun for hire business thats going on right now.
This talk of Salary Cap in Baseball is like hoping for World Peace it isn’t going to happen. For it to even become a remote possibility would require something along the lines of the collapse that the NHL went through “Times 10″. As far as “Players Pride” I will settle for some simple “Respect for the Uniform”.
Its a beautiful dream Darth but with all due respect its unrealistic.
The Red Sox and even the Yankees have put more focus on their scouting and farm without the cap. The cap has nothing to do with our lack of focus on the farm. It’s poor front office decision making. The cap isn’t going to suddenly make them better scouters or developers.
No, but it will expose bad decision makers and lead to short tenures for poor GMs.
I still say we just need to set a hard cap on type A free agent signings per year.
I agree but I think the bigger problem is the method of determining who’s type A and not, it doesn’t make any sense that there’s 40+ type A free agents.
Very dissappointed in Mets ownership. Ownership not wanting to sign Manny is a dig at the fans who wait for a championship year after year, promise after promise and it all comes down to raising ticket prices which are unaffordable for family’s like myself. Being a die hard Mets fan i always found away to bring my family to shea.
I don’t expect the Mets to spend to keep up with the Yankees. I do expect the Mets to step and spend if it is a player that can make a difference.
If we can put Manny in our outfield for 2 maybe 3 Years.. It should be done.
4 or 5 years ? Absolutely not! Honestly Manny is a better gamble than Lowe.
Manny in NY will put fans in the seats and pay for him being there.
Manny single handed put new life in the Dodgers.
Puts some excitement back here. This team needs new life. It doesn’t need for young kids like Wright getting tired feeling he has to pick up the rest of the team when struggling.
Wilpons.. I really hate you and as much as i love my NY Mets. I will spend 25 cents to see the new yankee stadium. Sorry your citi field is overpriced and i cant see spending for the same team as last year. Nothing new and exciting.
Spring training make no sense either. Half your players will be participating in the WBC.
If you want people to fill your seats. Maybe you should sell the team.
I actually felt bad for you when you lossed but now it makes me feel better that a person like you got screwed.
Other than the 25 cents tickets at Yankee stadium. You’re dead on. Why don’t they get the difference makers, instead of the guys who may be surprises like a Tatis or J. Valentin.
How can having Manny on this team, be any worse than 2 collapses, bad signings the last 2 years, the Willie Randolph firing, the lack of getting a relief pitcher before last years trade deadline.
Every team makes bad decisions, but ours are REALLY BAD!!! We’re not asking for every top player this offseason, just the one who makes the most sense and is basically saying..just offer me a contract.
This statement may not be true, but the fact that the Mets are linked to Maddoff(sp?) and no other sports franchise is, tells me alot about the Wilpons.
what does being linked to maddoff tell you about the wilpons exactly?
humor me here
DUUUUUUUUUUUU, UHHHHHHHHHHHH
WELL…………………. YOU KNOW. LOL
Something to chew on:
Rookie of the year last 10 years
Year – N.L. Player – Team – Position
Year – A.L. Player – Team – Position
1999 Scott Williamson Cincinnati Reds P
1999 Carlos Beltrán Kansas City Royals OF
2000 Rafael Furcal Atlanta Braves SS
2000 Kazuhiro Sasaki Seattle Mariners P
2001 Albert Pujols St. Louis Cardinals 1B
2001 Ichiro Suzuki Seattle Mariners OF
2002 Jason Jennings Colorado Rockies P
2002 Eric Hinske Toronto Blue Jays 3B
2003 Dontrelle Willis Florida Marlins P
2003 Angel Berroa Kansas City Royals SS
2004 Jason Bay Pittsburgh Pirates OF
2004 Bobby Crosby Oakland Athletics SS
2005 Ryan Howard Philadelphia Phillies 1B
2005 Huston Street Oakland Athletics P
2006 Hanley Ramirez Florida Marlins SS
2006 Justin Verlander Detroit Tigers P
2007 Ryan Braun Milwaukee Brewers 3B
2007 Dustin Pedroia Boston Red Sox 2B
2008 Geovany Soto Chicago Cubs C
2008 Evan Longoria Tampa Bay Rays 3B
Total Players = 20
Total W.S. Rings = 5
If you have weak farm system how do you compensate for it? Buy Buy Buy
If you have little money how do you compensate for it? Develop Develop Develop
If you have a combination of both how do you compensate for it? Buy Develop & Trade
If you have a weak farm system and a little money how do you compensate for it? See Pirates
Final Outcome = There is no one way to win W.S.
Mets you have an average farm system at best you have money though spend it sign a 2nd baseman (Hudson) and if you can get Manny in here for 2 years “DO IT!”.
Remember Vladimir Guerrero
NICELY DONE.
Its going to be a very interesting to see how The Wilpons play this. We are going to see what is most important to them. The Mets or the MONEY…
We’ve just had the two most heart wrenching seasons a Met fan has ever had, back to back. If ever there was a time to go out and spend money,, it would be right now. and it just so happens that one of the greatest natural hitters of all time is available. Yea hes not 25 anymore but did you see what he did last year. That man can play ball for 4 more years!!!
I’m starting to realize how lucky Yankee fans are to have an ownership that is dedicated to winning World Series titles.
The Wilpons don’t really care as long as they are making a buck. If this was going to break the bank then I would understand,, but this is nothing compared to what TEX or AROD got.. And the Mets have the money..
If you spend just enough to be a contender, but not enough to win a championship, then you are WASTING your money. If you spend big on Santana and KRod, but you don’t get Manny, then the money spent on Santana (and Beltran) and KRod is for nothing.
Also, I’ve lived in Boston for almost 30 years — meaning I saw all of Manny’s years on the Red Sox. What he did to get out of Boston this year was terrible, but don’t think that’s how he behaved most of the time here. He was mostly a beloved player, who delivered in the clutch and kept everybody loose with his antics. Like making a great leaping catch into the left field stands, and in one motion high-fiving a fan and throwing the ball in.
If we can get him on a 3 year deal it’s the greatest stroke of luck since we won the Seaver lottery.
I hope Omar is just playing his cards right, and will make his move on Manny at just the right time.
Daryl Strawberry said recently on the WFAN that Contending teams have a window to try and win a W.S. Title once that window closes thats it. This team’s window was opened in 2006.
2006: Game 7 NLCS Beltran bat on shoulder
result = Mets are eliminated
2007: Game #162 Glavine no-show
result = Mets are eliminated
2008 = Game #162 Bats & Bullpen no-show
result = Mets are eliminated
2009: ???
result = Mets are ????????
What will 2009 look like?
Mets acquired bullpen help now how about the offense. Don’t forget Lineup had total of 4 hits vs the likes of Olsen, Nelson, Gregg , Rhodes & Lindstrom.
Hudson & Ramirez might change that in 2009.
HURRY Mets before window closes…
Dont even blame that last game in 07 on Glavine.
Don’t blame Glavine? Nah he was an innocent bystander. How silly of me.
The offense is fine, pitching is the key, if they sign Lowe and get a couple of pitchers more, like Penny and Saito, we will be fine, offense hasn’t been the problem the last two years, pitching has, I’ll not oppose to sign Ramirez for a fair amount of money/years.
the offense is not fine
how many times last season did we get a lead in the 1st and not score the rest of the game.
you’ll have a hard time convincing me that a 2nd LHRP and the #5 starter is going to win us more games than the 2nd best hitter in baseball…
>>I’m starting to realize how lucky Yankee fans are to have an ownership that is dedicated to winning World Series titles.<>The Wilpons don’t really care as long as they are making a buck.<<
And the evidence for that is what, exactly? Just because they make questionable moves hardly means they don’t care or don’t want to win.
obviously, if the wilpons REALLY wanted to win a WS, they would BUY lowe and manny. and with adding those KEY components, the met lineup could even tolerate slappy castillo!
Vaccaro couldn’t have been more off base. The Yankees are an example of how NOT to run a baseball team, overspending so much for so little returns (relatively speaking) this decade. And even when their spending was more reasonable, though still huge, they were infested with PEDs cheaters. If the Mets ever became more like the Yankees, I might have to look for a new team to root for.
For anyone trying to guess why the Wilpons don’t throw money down the drain the way the Yankees do, I would guess there are various reasons. But I think a big reason is they believe in Luxury taxes and the reasons they were adopted. That’s why they stay near or below the luxury tax threshold. The Wilpons voted for them, after all. The Yankees are the only team that voted no.
I’m surprised Cerrone would like the Mets to spend more like the Yankees do and simply eat contracts. It’s this mentality that you can buy anything — even buy away your mistakes — that is detrimental to building a successful team for the long run. It’s the lazy or inept GM’s way to attempt to win.
yours is loser mentality
Hey thanks! Coming from someone whose world is upside down, that’s a compliment.
You know what real losing is? Spending over $200 million every year and having nothing to show for it.
signing key components that are PROVEN performers (manny is the best hitter in this galaxy) is hardly the same thing that the yankee pigs are doing. mets need a solid sp=lowe. mets need a righty LF that is a clutch cleanup hitter=manny. whats so difficult to understand about that? only losers cannot comprehend this.
Again, thanks for the compliments!
I have no issue with the Mets trying to sign Lowe. If they overpay him, that’s another matter.
As for Manny, he’s got a ton of baggage and an ego that can be detrimental to a winning team. And there’s this little thing called age. And don’t give me this crap that he’s got two rings. The Red Sox wouldn’t have won those two rings without the pitching upgrades they made after Theo became GM. What’s so difficult to comprehend about that? Only the desperate and misguided cannot comprehend this.
vcarver
Do you work for the organization? You sure sound like it. Just an FYI there is no salary cap and its not your money.
I want to win, 2 Championships in almost 50 years is embarrasing.
The Mets have a window with Santana and these relievers, now is the time. I would love to win with 9 homegrown players, but that doesn’t happen.
This team needs another bat and it needs to grow a pair. (i.e 1986)
No, sean, I do not work for the organization. I just want the Mets to not become the embarras-sment that has become the Yankees organization. Spending up the wazoo with nothing to show for it …. all while having their stinkin’ tin cups out to the city for more tax breaks is obscene. It’s been bad for the sport.
And yes,, there is no “hard” salary cap, but there is in effect a “soft” salary cap and it’s called luxury taxes. And this is in part what drives the spending for most teams.
No one is suggesting the Mets win with 9 homegrown players which would be impossible anyway given their current team. But if you haven’t noticed, spending like the Yankees do has only brought them failure.
In 2008, only two teams exceeded the LT threshold — surprise, surprise, they both fell on their faces.
You can’t just try to “buy” away all your problems in baseball. In any case, the Mets didn’t need to “grow a pair” so much as get a pair of good relievers which they’ve done this winter.
BTW, it’s not your money either.
Every time I hear the name Orlando Hudson, All i can think of is Homer Simpson and that voice he does when he really wants something. Ummmm Huuuuudsun! God could you imagine the 1-2 top of the line-up with Jose
Wut the mets need to win isn’t necciseraly manny, lowe or anything like that whhat they need is a new version of metsmerized sumthin along the lines of
I’m Mike Pelfrey and it may seem silly
But the Mets are way better than the Phillies
Jimmy Rollins who gives a #_(%
When he steps up to the plate he’d better duck.
Hey, where’s that points guy when you need him?
+10
Ron Darling is award winner for broadcasting with the Mets I believe and I didn’t mean to leave him out in my last post.
Don’t the Mets rank 3rd in payroll? How can you say they don’t spend the money? The Fish are serious about winning titles and they spend a ton less.
You guys are oblivious to the rest of baseball.
Because of how much revenue they bring in. Relative to what we make we spend a good amount less than most big market teams. For example this year we have an extra 20 million coming from Citifield, yet the Wilpons supposedly want the payroll lower than it was last year. We should have something like 25-30 million left to spend yet they seem to be pinching pennies.
Also the Marlins have a smarter front office who are much better at evaluating/drafting and developing talent than we are. I’d love to be able to compete like they can but lets not kid ourselves, money is our only hope.
“Because of how much revenue they bring in. Relative to what we make we spend a good amount less than most big market teams.”
Gina Gina, Gina … c’mon, you know that’s not true. As I replied to you the other day, the Mets had the second highest payroll in baseball in 2008 More than the Red Sox. Yet the Red Sox actually had more revenues than the Mets in 2007 — the last year for which Forbes has team numbers.
Stop spreading around this false information. It’s simply not true. And in fact, if you are one of those who thinks they should spend according to revenues, then they should have spent less than the Red Sox last year — not more.
I thought that too until there was a discussion in another thread about it. The revenue you see from sites like Forbes doesn’t take things like the SNY network, the restaurants that will be opening in citi, using citi for other functions, like the soccer team that was rumored before, into account because they don’t count as “baseball revenue”. When you take all that into account the mets bring in by far the second most, to the Yankees of course, in total revenue. The money you see on those lists is just the revenue MLB uses to determine how much revenue is shared. It’s not really all of what teams bring in. Especially teams like us and the Yankees and the Red Sox who can afford those other ventures, like SNY.
1. The Red Sox have their own regional network too. Do you know for a fact that the profits from their regional network are more than $30 million less than what SNY makes? If not, then you’re just speculating that SNY gives the Mets an edge in revenue when it may not at all. Also, the Red Sox are the only baseball team in their area. So their advertising rates are likely to be higher. I wouldn’t be surprised if their profit from their network isn’t higher than the Mets and what the Yankees get from YES. The Red Sox ratings are higher than both YES and SNY.
2. The restaurants that will be opening in Citi haven’t opened yet or made the Mets any money yet. What do you mean by “using citi for other functions” and how does that equate into added revenue? Also, I believe profits from a stadium are included in baseball revenue.
3. “The money you see on those lists is just the revenue MLB uses to determine how much revenue is shared.” This couldn’t be more wrong. In fact, MLB is often in disagreement with Forbes over their numbers. MLB has its own numbers for revenue sharing which they don’t divulge publicly.
Sorry, Gina, but I don’t see any merit to the statement that the Mets spend less in relation to revenues than teams like the Red Sox. And you’ve provided nothing but speculation and guesses. If you had some hard facts or even a source like Forbes to back you up, then that argument would hold more water.
The $30 million referenced in point 1 is the difference in revenues between the Mets and Red Sox in 2007, according to Forbes.
More about NESN … according to their website, they’ve been the top-rated regional sports network in the country for the last 4 years. I believe that is true and they’re not just preening their feathers. It is also verifiable with metrics such as Neilson ratings..
So, with their profits from NESN, I think the Red Sox probably have a helluva lot more money to work with than the Mets do.
Plus there’s the fact when you take into account how much the Red Sox spend on scouting, drafting and developing they still spend way way more than us. That’s one of the reasons the Red Sox’s payroll is less than ours, players like Papelbon, Lester, Pedroia, Youkillis= K-rod, Santana, Castillo, Delgado at like 1/10 of what we’re paying them.
Again, Gina, that’s a totally unsubstantiated specious statement.
When Omar came aboard, the Mets stated they were going to pour money into international scouting, especially Latin America. And they just finished building a new academy in the Dr.
So do you have any substantiation to say that what the Mets spend on international development PLUS domestic development is less than what the Red Sox spend abroad PLUS domestically?
I would venture a guess to say that it is probably equal … or that the Mets may actually spend a little more.
This isn’t true. Outside of the year we signed F-mart and Guerro we haven’t spent near as much as teams like the Yankees and Red Sox, or even in the Braves, have in the intl market. The last 2 years we’ve given out a total of 4-5 6 figure bonuses, the Yankees gave out 7 just this year and I believe the Braves gave out 4-5. I can look up more exact numbers if you want.
Also i posted a link like an hour ago that total up exact numbers about the revenue citi will bring in and the total increase the mets should see but for some reason it’s still “awaiting moderation”
Gina, are you measuring total spending on development in international markets by the number of 6-figure signings per year? How does that make any sense when the Mets may have spent more overall on international bonuses/contracts than the other teams? Not to mention infrastructure costs such as the DR academy and on scouts?
You’ll have to do better than that. Just looking at the number of 6-figure signings is not indicative of anything as there could be a lot of reasons why a player signs with another team besides money.
And, yes, if you have sources, please give them along with the website address. And I hope it’s not just a whining and unreliable journalist like Klaptrap or Vaccaro making unsubstantiated statements of their own. Does anyone have some close-to-real numbers or facts?
As for the link you posted an hour ago, perhaps you put in the http part? If so, it won’t go through. They filter out all links like that. Try putting in the link without the http part — for example, metsblog.com.
Or else you have one of those totally innocent words in it that the site’s filter doesn’t like. In which case you just have to find out by trial and error which word it is.
Also if you read the whole article about the business of baseball they talk about the difference in operating income. The Red Sox and Yankees both are in the negative because they spend more than they’re revenue but they aren’t losing money because they’re of the things like the regional tv network, which the articles mention aren’t taken into account. Where as the Mets have nearly 35 million surplus in operating income, the third highest total behind the Nationals and Marlins, because they don’t spend in that way. And if the article I posted is ever not awaiting moderation they explain how the payroll numbers aren’t actually what we’re paying because of the way contracts are back loaded, so really no matter how you slice it we’re spending way less than the Yankees and Red Sox relative to what we’re bringing in.
No i’m judging the amount we’re spending that actually has to do with players coming into our system. If our excuse for going cheap on the draft is that we spend in intl than shouldn’t we actually be signing and bringing in these guys we’re supposedly developing? And regardless we don’t spend that much more, even in building academies, which other big market teams have done, than other big market teams to justify spending less on the draft. The Red Sox, Yankees, spend big on both.
also here I’ll try again with the link.
crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080803/FREE/859880840/1009/KEYWORDS
Gina, first of all, that Crain article is just pie in the sky projections. Best case scenario speculating. It’s akin (but not as bad) as the uber rosy scenarios Boris and some journalists kept painting for the revenue A-Rod would bring in for the new team that signed him after he opted out. Nothing is real yet.
But, second, and perhaps more significantly, that article was written and researched in July before the economy took the deep nosedive and before the corporate entities came knocking on Washington’s doors for bailouts. Much of the spending on luxury boxes was expected to come from the same entities that are now struggling for survival.
As for Forbes not counting in RSN’s in their numbers, that could mean the extra operating income the Mets had in ‘07 was used to cover their costs of starting up SNY. I would think that of the three networks, SNY has the lowest revenue and ratings. That’s as good an explanation as your as-sumption that the excess operating income just went into someone’s personal bank account.
“No i’m judging the amount we’re spending that actually has to do with players coming into our system. ”
Huh? The reason few players have come into the system may have more to do with poor judgment and scouting rather than money.
“If our excuse for going cheap on the draft is that we spend in intl than shouldn’t we actually be signing and bringing in these guys we’re supposedly developing?”
Not if the scouting and decision making is poor.
“And regardless we don’t spend that much more, even in building academies, which other big market teams have done, than other big market teams to justify spending less on the draft. The Red Sox, Yankees, spend big on both.”
Again, totally unsubstantiated. Give a link. Just saying something doesn’t make it so.
“how the payroll numbers aren’t actually what we’re paying because of the way contracts are back loaded,”
The only numbers that count are the luxury tax payroll numbers. Because they are the only numbers that can incur a tax. And these are the numbers that drive the spending of most teams including the Mets and the Red Sox. And the Mets last season spent more than Boston on the luxury tax payroll. I believe their actual payroll was also higher.
I heard this was the top blog site for Mets fans but all the comments sound like they’re coming from 12-year-olds and/or wrestling fans.
No wonder Gieco stopped sponsoring this trash.
Hey, here’s an idea… don’t read it.
to olesmirf, Almost every time we had the lead, and the pitchers left the lead get away, do you think we are going to score in every inning if you score 7 runs in the first 3 innings you should be able to win the game, as I said, offense is fine, pitching was horrible and the RP, well 29 BS for a contender team is not acceptable, Manny will make our team better, but we can win without him by improving our pitching.
I think there’s something to be said for travelling with a lighter payroll, and getting a few key free agents (such as an ace pitcher or big bat) to fill spots when – and only when – the existing team has demonstrated a desire to win.
The Mets did right by getting Santana – can’t do better than that. They made a big mistake when the got rid of Kazmir. By and large, I think it’s best to hold onto the young kids all the way through. Some will pan out, some won’t. And bring in a few really choice outsiders, or people who play hard.
Why not hold onto the young kids and spend in FA? that’s what the Yankees are doing, and the Red Sox to an extent, they’re just smarter about it.
If you just spend in FA and lose all your draft picks, what young kids are left to hold onto?
Not if you let players walk also, like I’m hoping they do with Ollie. Plus if you spend in the draft you can get players who fell because of sign ability by paying well above the slot, for example what the Red Sox did with Lars Anderson who is probably a top 5 1b prospect in mlb now, they got him in the 18th round. We’ve actually done that some in the way way later rounds but not with some of the more big time names earlier.
Agree entirely about paying above the slot, but I still feel the Yankees recklessly spend and I don’t want the Mets getting into a mindset of throwing money around.
How can a team who’s goal is to win a WS title, go into a season with 4 or 5 everyday players that are huge question marks. Thats half of our lineup, throw in the possibility of Delgado having another rough start and we are in bad shape.
Church
Tatils/Murphy
Schneider
Castillo
We have no clue what to expect from these guys.
Our current rotation might even be a bigger issue. With only one proven starter. I love Johnny Maine and big Pelf but it remains to be seen what we will get from them.
Seems to me like the Wilpons know that Citi field will be filled regardless and don’t care about a WS title or even a division title.
Only a LF is a question mark, Schneider/Castro are our C’s and 2B is set, we don’t have Hudson but is Castillo returns to his old self w’ll be k, beside the past two season Hudson has end it up on the DL the last month of the season, we need pitching badly and a Manny/Bradley bat will be fantastic.
i give matt credit. he is now one of the enlightened ones. he sees the truth. mets need to win now. the current course/offense will only bring collapses and disappointments. wilpons need to spend $ for manny and lowe. slappy can be absorbed under those conditions. next stop would be the world series. hear me now, believe me in october…..again.
MEMO: TO WILPON’S,
MANRAM + MET’S LINEUP = AN ABSOLUTE UNSTOPABLE FORCE, WREAKING HAVOC UPON EVERYTHING IN IT’S PATH.
SAMPLE SCENARIO:
REYES ON 1ST, ( THREATENING TO STEAL ) MURPHY HAS JUST DRAWN THE COUNT TO 3 AND 0, BELTRAN ON DECK , RAMIREZ LOOMING FOLLOWED BY WRIGHT …………. AND IT’S JUST THE 1ST INNING………. DAMN.
that would be killer and imagine if we get production from Church.. It would certainly be an unstoppable force..
cheers to this idea
huh???
Vcarver –
Here’s the bottom line the idea of being outraged what Mets do with their money is only relevant if it prevents them from future moves ie: holding on to Castillo when Hudson is available.
If Mets simply can’t afford Hudson or Ramirez I am sure fans will understand. If though the money is their and they are just trying to follow some “best interest of baseball idea” then why in the world bother with Beltran or Santana.
They say we need an Ace and they sign one to 170 million now we need a 2nd baseman and a solid one is available and now we say
“oops but we signed Castillo” when everyone knew that was a fiscally irresponsible signing but they did it anyway.
So be fiscally irresponsible again.
Cmon gimme a break here.
Do you know what a budget is?: The Mets have one and it’s partly driven by the LT threshold.. 29 owners voted for the LT. Why have it if you don’t believe in it and try to follow it?
Why bother with Beltran and Santana? Easy. They were within the budget and deemed priorities.
BTW, Santana did not cost 170 million. Where did you get that from?
As for Castillo, Omar has to live with his mistakes. Fans can’t expect the Wilpons to just keep throwing money at Omar to help cover up his mistakes. Omar made the mistake, not the Wilpons.
Same with Mota, Show, Alou, El duque etc etc. Those were Omar signings.
There’s just so much money an owner can throw down the drain. At some point if the GM doesn’t start making better decisions, then it’s time to fire him.
It wouldnt even make sense to spend like the yankees. The mets didnt have the same needs the yanks did. Even though they both needed pitching, the yanks needed a full rotation, as opposed to the mets who really only needed one more pitcher in the rotation, but more so needed a bullpen and closer. Who will we spend it on, Manny, whose prolific and astounding offensive attributes are overshadowed by his attitude and defensive ineptitude. Put Manny on the mets, and the whole buildup of leadership and team chemistry will go to waste because players wil not tolerate his antics, even if the existing met players are not as outspoken as many feel they should be. Besides signing derek lowe, which is coming to our favor as we now stand as the only team serious in signing him, we should target orlando hudson and platoon murphy and tatis in left, and prepare for murphy or fernando martinez to takeover for hte future. We dont need manny as eople may think. We can building a winning dynasty with the players we have now and will develop for hte future with murphy wright reyes, martinez, santana, pelfrey, beltran, and hopefully even jon niese.
OK afraid Ramirez will ruin chemistry that is a legitimate concern.
Understand this though Mets have no depth in outfield, Beltran or Church goes down we are in trouble.
Murphy has to prove hes a offensive threat FMart who knows about him Tatis not everyday player.
If not Ramirez Mets need another everyday outfielder.
I don’t wanna hear about Lowe till he signs
I also still say Hudson is exactly what Mets need. Other than we have Castillo why wouldn’t the Mets get this guy?
Mets are in trouble unless they get a right handed hitter in the outfield. This is why!
Murphy has not found a position he is comfortable with.
Tatis has not shown he can play a full year but 2 months.
Ryan Church is a big question mark. When he showed up from the Nationals. Church has never played a full year. Not to mention is fragile.
F-Mart is not ready and might not be ready. We had this same hype with Escobar, Payton, Milledge. The only reason for the hype is the kids age.
Lowe will not be a Met. Lowe will not be had for less than 17 millon. Lowe will take less money somewhere else first.
Perez would be best bet but still you will be creating another bad contract
Castillo can be gone if the Mets agree to pay 9-12 million that is owed over the next 3 years. Doesn’t make sense moving him!
Manny can ruin chemisty YES! Chemistry of CHOKING!
Manny just makes Wright, Beltran and Delgado more of a force.
Manny may not be the best defensive outfielder but most experienced corner and better defense than what we got and plays everyday.
Mets don’t have a bench because there all slated for the corners so the Wilpons can save money. Easley was a big loss!
How much is Manny worth to you? would you donate 200 bucks over the course of 4 years? I would. Lets start a Manny fund. Or maybe have one of those PBS telethons. So Wilpons just send me a bill every month and I’ll gladly help out. Its not a problem, Really!
Vcarver –
Oh Im sorry what was I thinking 151 million.
Budget? Again if they simply can’t afford it then I have no problem with it.
The LT is just that an LT. You can spend what you wish so long as can afford to pay the LT if you go past a certain point.
As far as your comment “Why bother with Beltran and Santana? Easy. They were within the budget and deemed priorities. ”
Funny, 2 record contracts at the time because they were deemed priorities, so if that’s the case I guess 2nd and outfield must not be a priority.
We will just have to wait and see how season pans out if those spots remain unchanged.
Final note – The idea that a fan cares what a team spends is amusing for lack of a better word.
No one in this blog can with any accuracy say they know what a team can or can’t afford.
I just say until there is a cap in baseball (when pigs fly to coin a phrase) if you have the money spend it if not just tell us its not within our budget.
Jersey –
The LT is NOT just a tax. It never was. It was a measure with a purpose — primarily to keep the richer clubs from spending outrageously and to even the playing field a little. And to a large extent it’s done that. Even though the Yankees seemingly thumb their nose at it every year, you can bet they’d be spending even more without the LT.
Santana and Beltran were signed because 1) there was room in the budget and 2) they were priorities. Sorry, but if you make every weakness a team has a “priority” then it is no longer really a priority, is it? Priorities mean you have issues ranked in order, and every baseball fan with an ounce of sense knew that the priorities this year were the bullpen and retraining or replacing Ollie. Only Yankee fans feel that their team’s every weakness should be a priority. Unfortunately, many Mets fans are sounding just like them.
Fans of most other clubs know that not every weakness in a team can be addressed in the offseason. They know what real priorities are.
Bottom line — NO, 2nd and the OF were not priorities this winter on the same order as the bullpen and rotation.
And don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying everything is peachy keen with 2nd base now or will be during the season. It’s’ just that it’s unreasonable to expect the team to eat most of Castillo’s salary and pay for a replacement. At the present, no team is willing to take him even if the Mets pay a good chunk of his salary.
I think it’s sad you find it odd that a fan should care what their team spends. I’m not just a Mets fan. I’m a big baseball fan too. And the way the Yankees spend has been bad for the game.
At least we agree on one thing — that no one on this blog knows for certain what the Mets can and cannot afford. Which is what prompted my replies to Gina who does pretend to know and states with certainty things that are unsubstantiated.
You believe the Mets should spend as much as they can afford so I ask you this — Is there any limit? If their payroll was $280 million next season, would that be fine with you? Should they have outbid the Yankees on CC? Where’s your limit? Do you have any?
For me, I maintain and will continue to believe that the LT is a good thing, and the Mets — like the 27 other clubs in baseball last season — should adhere to the threshold.
The LT is good because it:
1) keeps salaries and costs down which translates to lower costs for fans
2) maintains a more even playing field
3) prevents some teams from going down a slippery slope of diminished returns that the Yankees have suffered the last few years.
If the Mets became more like the Yankees, that would be terrible. They need to look to the Red Sox for a model, not the Yankees.
when itt comes to the luxury tax, it’s not just a matter of whether a club can afford it or not — there’s principlle as well. ’s principle as well. The LT is not just a tax. It’s a measure instituted in an attempt to limit the spending of clubs. And it’s worked for the most part.
Umm who said anything about spending above the luxury tax threshold? Even if they sign Lowe we will be at least 20 million below it because of the 20 million we’re getting from citi. I’m pretty sure no one in here has said anything about spending over the luxury threshold so I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.
I guess we have bantered back & forth our views. I just want it on record I admire that you believe LT is about principal and I will just agree to disagree.
In regards to what is enough my intent is not to spend for the sake of spending if you can improve the team otherwise then by all means please do.
I do expect them to put the best team on the field as possible that should be their mission statement anything less will not do.
If money prevents them from doing this ok by me but the idea a fan (me for example) care if we win a W.S. with the highest payroll as opposed to the 4th, 5th or 6th highest. A Fan can care less.
Let me leave Mets fans with this:
If tomorrow Mets said we signed not only Manny but Hudson Lowe Perez as well and now they have the highest payroll in baseball and win a W.S. in 09 would you celebrate any less than if they won with the lowest payroll in baseball?
On the flipside what if they lose in 09 does it hurt any less cause they did it with lowest payroll in baseball?
LT IS SIMPLY ” SHARING THE WEALTH ” WHICH IS JUST A STEALTHY TERM FOR SOCIALISM OR COMMUNISM TAKE YOUR PICK.
I PERSONALLY LIKE THE TERM HORSE MANURE.
manny never gonna happen.
he wants 2/$50mil
mets can spend money they have the second highest payrol but idont think many is good
hudson, lowe,wolf, or perez
those are what we need to look at
we got tatis and murphy to play left field
I don’t think you understand how the luxury tax works. The Mets could get a billion dollars from Citi in ‘09 but the luxury tax threshold would stay the same. It doesn’t vary by the amount of a team’s revenue. So that $20 million is irrelevant to the LT threshold.
The Mets were right at the LT threshold in 08. Just slightly under. They took roughly $35 million off the books this winter. K-Rod and Putz add back about $18 million. Lowe or Ollie would add back another $12 to $15 million. Then there are arb and other salary increases which add perhaps $3-4 million more. So right there you’ve spent as much or more than you’ve saved. Since the threshold increases by a few million this year, that means with the addition of just one starter in the $15 million range, the Mets are right back up against the LT threshold for ‘09.
So if you want to eat Castillo’s salary and/or sign Hudson … or sign someone like Manny, that means going over the LT threshold.
And as for wondering who is suggesting they spend over the LT threshold, just read jersey’s post. He doesn’t care. And there are many more fans just like him posting here. To them if the Mets spend like the Yankees that’s OK with them. But that would make me puke.
Jersey, do you really think the Yankees spend just for the sake of spending? No. They are either trying to improve their team and/or trying to cover up costly mistakes.
So my question remains. How much is too much? The Wilpons’ holding company is very rich and if they wanted to could probably spend like the Yankees — I’m guessing not indefinitely but maybe for a year or two. But it could also be risky and eventually lead to financial problems.
You and I just differ fundamentally. If I were a Yankee fan and my team won the WS in 2009, I’d find no honor in that. Whoopee — they simply had the biggest checkbook! They bought the title IMO. It’s not about sport anymore. There are no baseball smarts involved here … perhaps just financial smarts (but even that is questionable).
And your hypothetical doesn’t make sense. The choice is not between the Mets spending way beyond the LT threshold like the Yankees do and having the lowest payroll in baseball … it’s between overspending and spending at a level generally agreed by 29 teams in baseball to be reasonable — the LT level. This is where the Mets have been the last few years and this is where they are heading this year.
The Mets will never have the lowest payroll in baseball ever.
No we weren’t
nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/2008/01/mets-will-set-team-payroll-rec.html
we weren’t even close to the luxury threshold for 08. And we’re not going to be close even if we add Lowe. Adding Lowe or Ollie would put us right above last years payroll/tax number.
But you’re right the money from citi field is exempt from revenue sharing not the luxury tax.
Yes, they were.
‘m not sure why you would even bring up an article from January of 08. That was before the final arb increases were factored in, plus the entire 40-man roster … plus the costs for benefits which are always factored into the LT.
The Mets LT payroll in ‘08 was $145 million. They were $10 million under. Which is consistent with what I said — slightly under.
nypost.com/seven/12232008/sports/yankees/yankees_hit_with_27_million_luxury_tax_145590.htm
That should read: “I’m not sure …”
Also, you don’t want to start the year right at the LT threshold because you want to leave enough room to make a mid-season acquisition.
So starting the year at around $10 mill under is wise, IMO.
btw, Rubin either doesn’t understand the LT or he has simply made some mistakes or typos. He listed Johan’s salary as 13.25 but for the LT payroll, only average annual salaries are used. For Johan, that’s roughly 23 million for every year he’s a Met.
Vcarver –
Its like you said we differ fundamentally “BIGTIME”.
I “CAN’T STAND” the Yankees but they are playing within the rules.
I wonder how many Yankee fans will puke if they win W.S. in 09 due to having highest payroll?
If teams decide one day they don’t agree with what Yanks are doing then institute a hard cap till then the Yankees are doing what they feel will win them a W.S.
I stand by my earlier statements.
bottom line ya cant but ur way in the playoffs
people want a salary cap thts bad for us bc
we have the second highest payroll
the differnece between the yankees and the mets is:
1.mets make smart choices
2. yankees dont think just do
3. mets are patient
4. yankees doubt there selfs> in 08
5. mets have good prospects
jersey, I have no intentions of trying to persuade you to change your mind. My main intention of posting in this thread was to say I think Vaccaro’s column was a bunch of rubbish.
There are many like you. But I ask you this … why do you hate the Yankees? As you said, they are playing within the rules.
For me, I hate them because even though they are playing within the rules, they have decided to thumb their noses at the spirit of the rules that have been adopted by the 29 other clubs. I hate them because they throw their money around recklessly in a way that’s bad for the game in the long run.
If the Yankees win the WS in ‘09, I bet most Yankee fans will be happy, but I’m sure there will be a contingent who will find little glory in the way they did it. I also believe their will be a sizable amount of derision in the media over their questionable accomplishment.
BTW, I am in favor of an even stricter LT system or even some sort of salary cap.
Is that the difference? I thought it was all the Hall Of Famers and W.S. Titles.
Who knew???
I keep getting a “Your comment is awaiting moderation. ”
What’s the deal? I believe I’m behaving by the rules.
Oh well I was hoping to reply to you Vcarver. but I must of said something that Metsblog finds questionable.
In any event just know that my comments were meant for Yankee fans
LETS GO METS
jersey, since some of your comments got held up, I’m not sure what the full context of your reference to HOFers and WS titles is. But that’s not why I hate the Yankees. For the most part, their HOFers are legit. And except for the years when they had many PEDs cheaters, their titles are legit.
If they can get titles on a more or less even playing field, that’s great. A $220 million payroll is not an even playing field.
btw, any word with a-s-s in it will hold up your comment. You can’t say “he’s a c-l-a-s-s-y guy” for example. And there are other totally innocuous words that will send your message to purgatory. One thing you can do in the future if it happens again is try posting your message in parts so you can isolate the offending word and change it.
Thx Vcarver that was it the a-s-s. Lol really I tell you
1st the “Is that the difference? I thought it was all the Hall Of Famers and W.S. Titles.” was meant for KrodaMets
2nd here is my reply to your earlier statement why i dislike the Yankees this time edited to make the post =)
“Vcarver -
Allow me to correct my earlier statement.
What I should of said is I really can’t stand Yankee Fans at least those that act like they are entitled and gloat due to their legacy instead of appreciating how lucky they are hence I root against Yankees.
Those Yankee Fans that act like they are entitled to something simply because of the pinstripes.
I hold no grudge against the likes of Jeter, Mariano or many others they are c-l-a-s-s acts.”
Hope this makes post.
Krodamet says:
December 28, 2008 at 6:57 pm
the differnece between the yankees and the mets is:
1.mets make smart choices
2. yankees dont think just do
3. mets are patient
4. yankees doubt there selfs> in 08
5. mets have good prospects
My Reply is:
Mr North Jersey says:
December 28, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Is that the difference? I thought it was all the Hall Of Famers and W.S. Titles.
Who knew???