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On Friday, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution said the Braves meeting with Derek Lowe lasted five hours on Thursday, complete with a video presentation and a recorded message from country music artist Alan Jackson.
…last week, people connected to the Mets seemed very confident in Omar Minaya’s ability to sign lowe…i have no idea how they feel now, since news of Atlanta’s involvement hit the wires…so, i’d love to now how they feel now…
Later that night, Ken Rosenthal of FoxSports.com said the Mets are now pessimistic about their chances of signing Lowe, though they are reluctant to offer him a guaranteed fourth year.
Nevertheless, “The Mets remain confident that they’ll eventually land one of their top two choices to upgrade the starting rotation - either Lowe or Oliver Perez,” writes Ken Davidoff in Newsday.
…there had been conflicting reports last week about whether the Braves made lowe an offer…from what i understand, the two sides discussed basic parameters during their meeting, but the Braves are expected to make a formal offer early this week…
The Braves are considering a deal worth $14 million per season, Dan Graziano recently wrote to his new blog NY Baseball Hack, while citing people familiar with Atlanta’s thinking.
…in the end, as it always has been, this situation is going to come down to that fourth year, and getting as close to $16 million as possible…whomever blinks first, will get lowe…
…the thing is, if lowe signs in atlanta, Scott Boras will have the Mets in a corner with perez, who they’re going to feel a ton of pressure to sign…and so, i would not be surprised to see the Mets asked to give four years to perez, because i trust boras to show up with some mystery team in those negotiations as well…in other words, if the Mets are going to have to dish out a four-year deal, like it or not, i would just give it to lowe - get the better, more stable pitcher and be done with this…because, i just have a feeling that is where this is all going anyways…
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This is why you don’t play the “waiting game” and you go out and secure the player you want. Circumstances often change unexpectedly, even in mid-January.
Just because it worked in with Santana, with the Mets the only team able to pay him and willing to give up prospects as well, does not make waiting and hoping things fall in your lap so you get the best deal possible an actual strategy.
So the Mets should have offered Lowe the “Zito like money” he was asking for and been done with it?
Even if they end up going with 4 years/$60M, that’s far less than what Lowe was originally asking for.
Exactly Xavior.
If they need to over pay lowe a little, then so be it. I won’t like it, and would rather cheaper options, because frankly lowe isn’t that good. But should Lowe get the 16.5-17 mil that Burnett got just cause. No way.
Omar played this right, and in the end if atlanta wants to blow the mets out then let them.
Lowe isn’t THAT GOOD. He’s a very solid pitcher who you know what you will get from. Nothing more, nothing less. His Home/Road splits are pretty significant, so that’s a sign he might even be a victim of success in dodger stadium.
Also if you have to go 4 years i’d rather do 4 on Ollie who’s 29 then Lowe who’s 36.
Omar should be signing both of them…enough of the crying about budget. Sign both Perez and Lowe and be done with it!
They are not signing both, so get over it. They should up the annual for Lowe to $15m per for 3 years or add the 4th year at 13-14 per and be done with it.
why should we have to get over it, stop your ignorance Mets CAN afford both of them so wake up and spread the word.
They absolutely CAN afford both of them. There is no excuse not to give Lowe 14 to 15 and Ollie 10 per year to get the deal done. I don’t know when Maine is eligible for arbitration, but right now he is very cheap , and Pelfrey is cheap as well. And not to mention, they need both.
How do you know what they can and can’t afford? I am sure the mets have a 2009 budget and a longer term projection of their annual results and right now it is telling them to limit their spending to a certain level. This is not going to change, so you need to get over wishing for them to sign both, b/c its not going to happen.
The Mets and Minaya have NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER for not getting one of these two guys.
Settling for Garland or Wolf is completely unnaceptable.
I donlt want to hear any rationalizing failure in a few weeks.
MINAYA HAS GOT TO GET IT DONE.
If forced to choose between Lowe and Perez, knowing that four years would be required, I might go for Perez. At least he’s still young.
Young does not necessarily translate into good. I think we got dome decent mileage out of Perez but I don’t want to commit 3 or 4 years to him.
The Mets would have to commit at least 3 years for Perez to get to the table. It’s when it gets to 4 years or more that things get dicey.
why did Omar/Wilpon meet just Boras, yet Atlanta had everyone and their uncle meet with Boras AND Lowe.
Probably all kidding aside, the Braves need Lowe much more than the Mets do. Their GM needs to save face after losing Smoltz.
Ok bottom line is Omar needs to sign Lowe. Guarantee him the 4th year and be done with it. You know that Ollie is going to require atleast that and if we lose out on lowe, boras can demand pretty much whatever he wants.
i think it all depends on what boras wants for perez per yr
if its 10 for 4 yrs i might go for that he a #3 starter. if its 13 for 4, just sign lowe for 14.5/yr
i agree with matt, if lowe goes to ATL, perez becomes the biggest fish in the pond and we’ll end up overpaying for him
Yes, but who else will be able to afford him that’s wants him? Yanks and Sox are out of it. Braves will have Lowe. Giants don’t need him. Phillies like to to talk. Nats are will ing to spend but no one wants to go there it seems. Maybe the Dodgers but I’d doubt they’d get into a bidding war for Ollie.
Plus, whatever Lowe signs for sets the ceiling for Ollie. I very much doubt that he’d get more than Loew in both years and dollar amount.
If the Mets are going to give some one four years, they should give it to Ollie. He is young and he’s Left handed. Go for Ollie first for 10-11 a year. Now Boras is stuck with lowe with no bidding war and the Mets might be able to get him for their price(if not they still have Perez). There is talk the Braves are interest in Sheet now and will give out a offer to Lowe early this week.
if i had to choose one, id go with perez. hes oung and not particularly injury prone. lowe has had a healthy career but he is getting older. whose to say in two years the parts dont start to fall off.
id prefer perez. he can be erratic and can leave a game in the third inning, but when the chips are down, perez is a gamer. with a new stadium and a dominant bullpen, the intensity could benefit such a player.
what’s with this meme that Perez is a gamer?
In Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS, Endy Chavez saved his bacon.
In the first game of the final 3 game series against the Marlins in 2007, Perez had an absolute meltdown, hitting two batters with the bases loaded.
In the final game of the 2008 season against the Marlins, he was erratic at best, giving up 2 ER and 3 BBs over 5.1 IPs
He’s not really someone I would want for a big game.
Perez was not erratic the final game of the year. he was going on short rest and had a shutout going in the 6th. He did a great job that day. Its not his fault we did not Olsen that day.
Santana did a great job; Ollie did an adequate job. 5.1 IPs is not great.
Wait… The Braves brought in Alan Jackson? I thought they brought in Toby Keith. Now I know we’re screwed.
If Omar Minaya was on the ball, we’d have BOTH Alan Jackson and Toby Keith working for us, making pitches to our potential free agent acquisitions. This is just another example of the Mets being a small market team like the Pirates and the Royals. Pathetic.
You are kidding right?
Have you compared our payrolls in recent years to the teams you mention?
Man Alan Jackson, what a relief. When Matt first reported it was Toby Keith, I was worried that his star power would convince Lowe that Atlanta was the place to be.
I mean how could we hope to compete with the star of “Beer for my horses?”
Alan Jackson we can beat. How bout a nice standup routine by Chris Rock?
Yup Kingman. I’m just kidding.
When I’m suggesting that the Mets should be adding country music stars to our payroll, you can be pretty sure it’s a joke.
I think we’d have better results if we used a video from the Pussycat Dolls. But thats just my opinion.
“The stable, more consistent pitcher”?!
He’ll be 41 years old in that 4th year, Matt!!!
What happened to all the ‘get young at all costs’ talk!??!
In contrast, Ollie in his 4th year will be 31 (TEN YEARS YOUNGER!!!)
Hmmm…Ollie is 8 years younger now, but in 4 years he will be 10 years younger…I don’t know, something doesn’t sound right there…It sounds like something Boras would use to sell a team on signing Perez over Lowe (that is if he didn’t represent both of them).
thats because he will be 39 not 41 in the final year of a 4 year deal…
Yes, I know…I was really getting at how he was claiming that Lowe would go from 35 to 41 in 4 years.
i guess he really wants ollie…lol
Lowe is turning 36 a 2 months into the season so he will turn 40 the year of his final contract.
ok lets do some math here people…36 in 09…37 in 10….38 in 11 and in the 4th year of 12 he would turn 39 in June of that season
God i’m an idiot. I keep reading he’s 36 now and that would make him 40 in 4 years.
Bad Math on my part.
no worries….it happens
Screw’em both and Boras…sign Sheets,Pedro and Garcia …Sign a Lefty for the pen…and get to work on the offense ..I really want Dunn on a 2 yr 18mil deal..lock it up.
I was just thinking the same thing.
Especially since Lowe isn’t really good enough (at his age certainly) to be getting all this hype!
Take the flyer on Sheets, and hae smoe back ups on hand.
Johan,
I’m almost with you 100% on here. Sign Sheets, Pedro, Freddy. Get a bat, and possibly Garland also. Have Pedro and freddy for if/when Sheets doesn’t play or even have neise.
Screw dealing and over paying one of the 2.
GET BEN SHEETS!!
I agree with Sheets and Garcia – I like that better than Lowe or Ollie. Could the mystery team for Ollie be the Yanks?
I think one of the main issues driving the Sheets market is his Typa A status. Taking a gamble also includes losing a first rounder (or a 2nd round pick for the Mets). I would guess his main suitors would be the bottom 15, who they would not lose a pick, or the Yankess who would lose a 4th round pick (a*s*suming no other signings) on him. If the Yankess show no interest look for a Washington type team to sign him on the cheap then move him at the deadline for prospects, a*s*suming he is healthy. A bottom-15 team basically takes a 6M(?) gamble with the prospect of getting some prospects. I can’t see the Mets go after him given the quality / quantity of their farm.
How is Oliver Perez an “upgrade”?
Hey, weren’t you a back up catcher who couldn’t make it in the majors?
lol thought the same thing at first…probably an upgrade in the sense of the possible replacement if we lose out on both lowe and perez.
Why is no one talking about Ben Sheets? If Lowe doesn’t want our offer, I’d go after Sheets. Stop letting Boras get the stalking horse, go get one of you own OMAR! Omar isn’t that good. I hope people realize that.
Gotta be the injury.
NO ONE’S talking about Ben Sheets.
Why?
Because his medical reports have been circulating GM’s offices across the country.
They’re all obviously scared of something since there’s not even a WHISPER of talk surrounding him and we’re in mid-Jan…
as mentioned above, sheets is a type a fa. so, you are taking a gamble on an oft-injured guy who is going to cost two picks.
He only cost 1 pick and it would be a 2nd rounder. So if we let Perez walk we get 2 picks, a 1st rounder and a compensation pick and lose a 2nd rounder.
trs, why would sheets only cost 1 pick? he’s a type A FA.
When you sign a Type A free agent you forfeit a first rounder, a second rder if you already signed another type A previously in the offseason, so on and so forth. The 2nd pick, the supplemental, does not cost the Mets any pick. It just kind of gets created, like magic.
What differently should Omar have done. Gone all yankees and Big 3-36, when he said no say 3-45 when he said no said 4-60 and he says yes. So you bid against yourself and over pay someone by 24 million off what you think he’s worth.
Why do people not see this? Omar and the Mets sat down and said what is Derek Lowe worth. 12 million a year for 3 seasons was what they thought, and they probably have a ceiling on what they think he’s worth, and it sounds like 4 years is too long and 15 million is too much.
Atlanta has made NO offer. And all we are hearing is speculation that they are offering 14 million. So if that’s over the ceiling of the Mets offer, Let him walk.
HE’S NOT THAT GOOD
Stick to your guns Omar. Let the Braves cripple their rotation with yet another aging SP.
Lowe is worth 3 Years, $36M. And that’s it. We do need another quality starter, but overpaying for Lowe is not the way to do it.
Agree, but I would not over pay for Perez either. Remember he will cost us 2 picks if we sign him.
Signing Oliver Perez will cost us 2 draft picks? To what team would those picks go?
You don’t get it do you. Let me explain.
If the Mets don’t sign him then another team will. We will then get a pick from them and a compensation round pick. If we sign him then we get…… just him and we don’t draft until most likely 3rd or 4th round depending on who else we sign.
true, which is why it would be a disaster to sign both lowe and ollie. we’d lose the picks to sign lowe and then we would forgo the picks we would get back by having ollie sign elsewhere.
Thanks for a defensive explanation to a sincere question. (Why so angry?)
Sign Sheets and trade for Johnathan Sanchez. Forget Boras or Perez.
A Johan, Sheets, Pelfrey, Sanchez, Maine rotation would be just fine.
And when Sheets gets injured a Johan, Pelfrey, Sanchez, Maine, Redding is very competitive.
I’d love to have Jonathan Sanchez, but I believe it would cost a package surrounding Mike Pelfrey to do it IMO
no way.
No way. He was mentioned in a trade for Jose Cantu. Either he or Noah Lowry won’t even have a spot in the rotation.
Ahhhh….I don’t know about that son…he’s only 25 yrs old with a power arm, less than a hit per inning allowed last year with 157 K’s in 158 innings? He’s got alot more value than Jorge Cantu, thats for sure.
I love how you look at his Positives. He’s 26 which is older then Pelfrey who is 24(soon to be 25). He had worse statistics across the board last season. Beginning with innings which pelfrey had 200 in 32 starts (6+) a start. While Sanchez had 156 in 29 starts, (5+) a start.
2nd Sanchez has great K numbers, over one an inning, but he walked 75 in 156 innings, almost .5 an inning. While Our Boy Pelf had 64 BB in 200 innings, less then 1 every 3 innings.
And the Fact that a Sanchez for Cantu swap was mentioned should show you the level he is on.
Pelfrey wouldn’t/shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence as him in terms of prospects. I’d give up Evans and Kunz for him. Nothing more really.
I’d love it if Omar turns around and says…
“Scr3w you Boras! Take Lowe and Ollie! We don’t need ‘em!”
Then signs Sheets (who goes on to win 18), Pedro (who goes 10-8), and Garland (who goes 12-9).
This could happen.
So you are saying that we get 22 wins out of the #5 spot? LOL.
You would not need Pedro if you signed Garland or vice versa.
Whoever keeps mentioning pedro should be banned from the blog.. alex242 has spoken!!
I second that motion Alex!
Except of course, if we are mentioning Pedro to comment on his being useless for 2-plus years, and managing 17 total wins the last three years for about 40 mil. That there is Mike Hampton production! At least we got DWright with the pick we got for losing Hampton….
Oh! It’s not that I want Pedro back. All I was saying is that it could be a reality that you guys (and I) don’t want.
My honest feeling is that Sheets would be fine in NYC and Pedro would go 6-11.
But all of what we say is conjecture.
Will Pedro be in Binghampton or Brooklyn to achieve that 10–8 record??
There are pros and cons for both Lowe and Perez. At this point, my first choice is to sign either of them soon so that the focus can shift to the everyday lineup. I’m not comfortable with the situations in left field and second base, and first base could very well be lackluster again. If this Boras situation drags on too long, I worry that Omar will miss out on opportunities for the lineup.
Giving Lowe a guaranteed 4th year at his age is just crazy. If that’s what it’ll take, let Atlanta have him.
If we can still get him for 3 under 16Mil, then O.K.
Well, its over guys. How can we possibly compete with Alan Jackson?
hahaha – I have yet to figure out why Alan Jackson and/or Toby Keith should even matter…..
Frankly, those two could very well help Lowe realize how much better NY is….
That’s a bunch of BS…we have Garth Brooks still on our side…
Yes Matt, this is where it’s going and since Boras likes to drag these things out, there is no way now to know whether this could have been done in a quicker and cleaner way, like offer Lowe this deal early on with a take-it-or-leave-it approach, but since that ship has sailed, I must re-emphasize that Lowe is DEFINITELY the better pitcher, unless he starts showing his age in performance or health, which of course is not out of the question, even though he has never been on the DL, from what I recall. The big thing is, if the Mets don’t get aggressive on signing Lowe quickly and putting this whole ugly chapter behind them, then this leads to the following:
1. The Braves end up with Lowe.
2. We have to overpay longterm for Perez or move on to Wolf or Garland (which at that point would be preferable frankly) – 4 years and 48 million for Perez, who is barely worth 24 mil for 3 years.
3. If we sign Perez instead of another team, we lose out on two draft picks!!!!!!
4. Lowe is the top pitcher available when you consider his previous record and health (no, it doesn’t say anything about the future, but.up to now, he’s been “solid”).
So, instead of shelling out another 10 or 15 million extra dollars, the Mets are risking two draft picks, having a solid #2 pitcher as opposed to a shaky #3 or #4 in Perez or whoever the hell else they can find and let’s remember that Santana, Maine and our new guy Redding have all had surgery in the last few months. Basically, we are running Pelfrey and Niese out there at this point. This has been “Mets silly” in the awful tradition of our team botching things and now they will either lose out on Lowe, and maybe to of all teams the Braves, or get the guy after he has been already on a couple of dates with Bobby Cox and Larry Jones.
im with ya here, except one thing is unclear…do you think we lose draft picks if we sign our own free agent (ie perez)?
Yes, we lose the picks that Perez would have brought us. If he leaves we will get 2 picks.
ok but if we get lowe…then its a wash….two out and two in
Lowe only cost us 1 pick.
Is there any concern out there that if we sign Lowe, there will be only one lefty in our starting rotation. I think it would make a lot of sense to bring in Perez to break up the righties. Go Johan, Pelf, Ollie, Maine, Redding.
Well, that’s my preference but I think we’re in the minority with Perez over Lowe. Especially if it takes 4 guaranteed years to get Lowe. That is just crazy at his age.
Not concerned at all. Get the best pitcher. That’s like saying don’t sign Lowe get Odalis Perez, he’s left handed.
At this point the braves can have Lowe and I believe we’ll fine with:
Santanna
Pelfrey
Perez
Maine
Redding
KEEP IT MOVING!!!
Ahhh enough! The Giants lose (although coming off a SB I can deal with that) but now more of this give Lowe 4 yrs nonsense?? At least trump up Sheets in this convo… And the power of authorship that Matt has really overblows Lowe’s ability in the eyes of fans… Sheet/Perez, Perez/Redding and/or Pedro, etc… Omar needs to sign Lowe like I need to contract malaria, which is to say it is entirely unnecessary. Oh and btw… does anyone else see Theo Epstein as being the mad scientist of low risk, high reward? For the price of Lowe, he gets Smoltz and Penny (maybe even less annually). If put into an equation, one side is extremely not balanced…
I would rather bring in Garland and Sheets. That would be perfect and at this point may not cost much more than just Lowe.
I wonder if we don’t sign lowe if we would have enough money to get perez and either garland or sheets? if we could i’d rather go for that.
If we don’t get Lowe then Boras will up the price for Perez if we are interested. He would end up costing at least 12 million a year. So the answer is no.
TRS,
Welcome to the Garland Ship…. I have wanted him and Ollie all off-season and be done with it.
I like the Redding as 5th starter/Darren Oliver man.
If sheets is fully healthy, at least for him, then I’d much rather give him a 2-3 year deal, same to garland and move on.
If Garland is on the Mets in the NL, i think he puts up the same season as Lowe in Atlanta, if not close for 2/3rds the price.
If Omar really wants to let the market come to him then I have three names: Ben Sheets, Jon Garland, and Freddy Garcia. I’d pursue any of those guys before agreeing to sign Lowe to a 4th year. Haven’t we learned from Pedro, Glavine, Wagner, and “El Duque”?
Agree you could most likely get the lot of those pitchers for 18 million.
Exactly.
Sign those 3, You have Redding as the #5 guy/Bullpen long man when/if sheets goes down. Even without an injury you need a 6th guy at least 5-6 times a season to start games.
This approach is way better then over-paying an aging sinker baller, or a erratic lefty.
I rather have ollie, 4 years for lowe is too much, he will not be any good in the final 2 years of the contract. remember he pitched in the NL WEST.ollie pitched great at the end of the year, he could have won 15+ games last year if the bullpen was decent.I think the bullpen blew 5 wins for him.
ollie is not an ace, but long term he will be better addition for us, not to mention how he dominates the phillies.
Good, he won’t be good in his last 2 years and Perez won’t be good in his first 2. LOL.
I’m tired of Lowe at this point. And totally over Boras! Can’t blame some teams for refusing to deal with him. And the biggest problem to me is trying to drag out signings until the very end, which screw other players (some repped by him), and teams trying to plan.
Play your games, but do it quicker!
Anyway, if they want lowe, I can see them just bumping the annual $ for 3 (money saved by signing redding?). If they go 4, just make it a vesting option (say 180 IP) that is realistic.
so, it may end up ebing a choice of 3/42 or 3/39 + 180 IP vesting option for 14mill.
I hate the thought of a guaranteed fourth year, but i can agree just get the better pitcher. I have to chuckle to myself when i hear them say “improving the rotation” by resigning the same guy in perez. getting the same guy is not improving.
I think Perez is going be a beast this year with at least 15 W’s.
****No MLB teams has raised its payroll from 2008 numbers**
So if you think the Mets are going to be the only ones that do, you have another thing coming. there is something going on that is prohibiting teams from going out and spending. (maybe recession, or maybe something else)
Omar is going to have to play within these guidelines. So you guys are going to have to accept that Omar only has about 20 mil to play with.
So save you breath. Omar is doing the best he can with what he has to work with.
I would like to see him get creative, however.
How about Delgado for Sanchez and sign Manny and Garland?
30 for Manny and Garland -12 for Delgado would be only 18 million and would completely change the team.
I would be shocked if it happened, but you are correct that it would certainly change the dynamic of the team!
And give them a rotation nucleus with plenty of youth.
Still have to deal with Boras then. And you can WRITE it down now, that there is a “Mystery Team” willing to give manny 4 years at 25-30 per.
I’m fine with moving on from Lowe. The various combos of Sheets, maybe Garland, a few traqde options, etc. can put together a perfectly fine rotation. And even better if it saves some $$ to invest elsewhere.
The difference between Lowe and most of these other guys (if there ends up being one) can be more than offset by upgrading in the OF, 2B, pen, etc. Might not bring in Manny, but could mean getting some other player that would be an upgrade.
More fun would be for Boras to give Omar an ultimatum type of offer, and have Omar walk away (and do it publically) and immediately move on other signings.
Can you imagine how quickly the market for Lowe will tank if the Mets drop out? Would probably make the Braves happy. Oliie and Boras, not so much!
The real hold up this year is having the 2 (perceived) top guys both repped by the same agent. Can’t really play them off each other.
So just take the flyer on Sheets, sign Wolf, or some other move.
Just keep the contracts short 92 years max) and you don’t hav emuch exposure.
Pretty sure we can get any FA we want if we offer them a 92 year contract ;)
I need an autocorrect to change all my 9’s to “(”.
I seem to be shift key challenged.
Here is a question for all you Perez fans.
Would you trade Sheets, a 1st round pick, a compensation pick and 2 million for Perez and a 2nd round pick?
Tough call. There has to be something in those medical reports on Sheets that have most GMs not making an offer……
Ok put Garland in there instead and 4 million istead of 2.
Thing is, I like Sheets and probably would take a chance on him.
I Agree
metsrbest:
“Omar should be signing both of them…enough of the crying about budget. Sign both Perez and Lowe and be done with it!”
I agree with this comment. I understand that money is an issue, but how long do we wait? We may lose out on both if we wait too long. If he signs both now, then maybe we can concentrate on offense and seek out another BIG BAT, or doing something about Castillo. I say, Omar gets the deal done and tries to get Hudson to replace Castillo.
One of the main reasons I think it’s imperative to get Lowe over Perez is because you need to “change the mix” of a team that’s collapses 3 straight seasons. If you bring back Perez, not only will you be bringing back the same rotation from a failed 2008, but also the exact same batting lineup, which I think is a mistake. Not to mention the fact that Perez is a complete headcase and nobody else seems to want to bid on him. But still, Boras would have great leverage on the Mets for Perez is Lowe goes to ATL. That’s why I think it’s really silly/short sighted for the Mets to let it be publicly known that their top 2 (and ONLY 2) options for SP are Lowe and Perez. Why not show interest in Sheets? That would help leverage, for sure, and I’d also rather have him than Perez arguable, especially if its for 2 years/25 million or something like that. To say Wolf is a viable fallback is silly- the agents (and the fans) are not stupid. And with the gazillion dollars in revenue that’s being brought in by the Mets, there is no good reason why they can’t get 2 more good SP’s (Lowe and Sheets). This organization does not know what it’s doing, and it shows.
agreed except easy on the three straight years of collapses…you dont collapse in the 7th game of the NLCS and i would even argue that the better team won down the stretch last year…just one mans opinion
You need to throw Sheets into the mix with Lowe and Perez and say you want one of the 3- that would help leverage. Not that they shouldn’t sign 2 of them, they obviously should…but we all know they are too f’ing cheap.
I’m tired of the “spending like the Yankees” mentality and “you must spend money if you have it”. It’s just stupid. If you want to think like that.. BE A YANKEE FAN!
Best I would do is.. Match Atlanta’s offer or maximum go to 3 years at 14 per and and an easily obtainable 4th base on innings pitched in the previous years. We should have an edge when it comes to matching because we’re closer to getting into the playoffs than Atlanta who’s rebuilding will be! If not, then we don’t want you Lowe!
If that fails, skip Perez. The 2 draft picks is worth more. Sign Sheets and Pedro to an incentive laden contract. I don’t think Wolf and Garland will be possible for 5th starter.. They will almost definately want multi-year.. and that would block Niese. Signing them to be your 4th is just horrible. They’ll end up being the next Kevin Appier.
I am also very tired of Lowe and the only way I bring him to NY is to bring Manny with him, because if you look at his numbers last year they were hideous until the Dodgers got Manny then he finally got motivated to pitch well. He is a slacker!!!!! He is an older version of Perez in that he only pitches well when he is motivated and to boot we are going to be stuck with him when he is 40 and then he will make Glavine look good.
I thought if we signed Perez we get to keep our draft picks?
WE lose the 2 he would bring us.
Don’t you have to lose it to someone? In this case, it’s yourself.. isn’t it?
Not in this case because they don’t exist until he signs with someone else.
Hmm.. Actually I think that is true.
sorry had a brain Fart! :-) we do lose them because we don’t get any if he signs with us.
Exactly. The mets are already down 2 picks by signing K-Rod. Perez signing else where would offset that, and bringing in another Type A would cause them to lose more.
Sorry down a pick, plus the Angels get a Compensatory pick… If perez signs else where the mets get that teams’s 1st round pick, Plus a Compensatory pick.
If the mets sign another Type A, that team gets a 2nd round pick from the mets, and a pick in the compensatory round.
So someone correct me if i’m wrong here. If the Mets sign Lowe, and Perez signs elsewhere, The mets would lose their 1st round pick for Krod, Gain a 1st round pick for Perez. Which would then go to the Dodgers for Lowe. Leaving the Mets with a pick in the Compensatory round (Between 1 and 2 for Ollie) and picks from rounds 2 until the end of the draft?
I don’t think you can bring back the same exact offense and the same exact rotation (Perez) from a failed 2008.
not to mention the same manager who failed in 2008…
Oh brother…..
The Giants Sanchez!! Yes sir, Get pa-ssive aggressive off this team pronto
Omar, i’m on vacation and you are stressing
me out!–Its a month to Ps&Cs and we still have No Righty RBI bat/corner OFer, No #2
SP And no Insurance for Luis Aches&Pains.
Lowe is so not worth what he’s asking for and certainly not worth an easily attainable 4th year option.
If he gets that from the Mets I guarantee in 3-4 years the same guys here crying for Lowe will be the same ones crying about “Freddie Coupon” because they won’t eat the remaining years of his contract and they can’t trade him.
My definition of “easily obtainably” might not be the same as yours.. To me that means.. Average of 180+ innings over previous 3 years.. or at least 180+ in the third year..
That’s easily attainable to me. A pitcher will drag himself out to the mound even if has the plague to get those innings.
Anything but a club option for Lowe for the 4th year is too risky and dumb.
You don’t overpay. Period. 4 years to Lowe or Ollie would be overpaying. If other teams want to make mistakes, let them do it.
Even if a) the Braves sign Lowe, and b) some MYSTERY TEAM signs Perez, there are still other pitchers out there like (Sheets, Garland, and Wolf).
Nevertheless, this is all smoke. The Mets will sign Lowe or Perez at 3 years.
I wouldn’t mind it being Perez because he has more upside than Lowe. We have a good rotation and taking a chance on Perez wouldn’t hurt too much, especially with our improved bullpen and return of Santana, Maine and Pelf.
So, you don’t overpay to try and win a championship BUT just pay enough to be
better then Average knowing that’ll keep your
fan base happy? Yup!, Sounds like my Mets.
Why over pay on Lowe or Perez when you could underpay on Sheets, Garland, etc and spend some money on the offense for the same price?
sheets will cost two picks because he’s a type a free agent…
Man you guys just don’t understand the rules. Sheets would cost us a 2nd rounder right now. Not 2 picks, you can’t give up a pick that does not exist.
If Perez signs with another team we will get their 1st or 2nd round pick AND a compensation pick in a special round in between the 1st and 2nd round.
real, I’m not sure what your point is. The only big difference in picks is the possibility of a first round pick if Ollie is signed elsewhere but that is not even as-sured.. it could be a 2nd round pick, and we would retain the 2nd round pick anyway if we kept Ollie.
So you’re talking maybe a 1st round pick vs. a 2nd round pick plus a supplemental pick.
Is that enough to base your choice of starters on? I wouldn’t if I were Omar.
If were going to be giving 4 yr deals then Id much rather give it to the 28yo lefty. Than the 36 yo righty. Just my personal opinion. I feel like Olie is on the verge of good things.
Guys maybe if I post it here, I won’t have to post it 50 times.
Signing Perez DOES cost us 2 picks. The 2 picks that we would get if he left. You have to factor those in when you price Perez instead of Lowe. Lowe cost you 1 2nd round pick and Perez could cost you a 1st round and a compensation pick, which we all know may be as good as another 1st rounder. I don’t know about Lowe but to me unless Perez is coming in at 3/30 then I would stay away.
Ollie is a type A free agent?
Come on Vcarver get with it.
The reason I ask is because yesterday MLBTR posted the top 20 free agents based on WARP3 and Ollie wasn’t on it … but a dud like i-Rod was.
I certainly wouldn’t base the choice on 1 free agent pick. It’s not worth it if it means taking Lowe on what is essentially a 4-year contract.
Further, the Mets are not guaranteed a first round pick should Ollie leave if a team that fell into the bottom 12 signs him.
That should read top 20 “remaining” free agents.
Goes to show Ollie’s past performance. But yes, he is a Type A.
Anyone know how much cash Atlanta has coming off the books..
16 for Smotz?
12 for Glavine?
20 for Tex?
Tex did not cost them 20 million and what happen to Glavine? Did he officially retire?
Isn’t Tommy a free agent? anyways…..
Do you know if signing bonuses are factored in on a teams yearly payroll?
Yes they are.
And I have no idea on Glavine. I think you are right.
unsigned FA, may end up back in Atl.
did you guys read that article about tommy being jealous of Smotz going to Boston.. I think tom realizes his day are numbered unless he takes a serious pay cut.
Seriously, I am so done with this rotten piece of trash Boras. Tell him to go straight to h*e*ll and take the Braves offer and while he’s at it go find some other suc*k*ers for Oliver Perez. If I were Omar, I would sign Sheets and 1 more back end guy for insurance. (Odalis Perez maybe? or somebody like that)AND, use the extra money for an OF bat. Manny obv is choice # 1, but Abreu, Dunn ro maybe even a trade at this point.
To be honest I’m tired of not knowing whats going to happen… sign a freaking pitcher already!!!
If Randy Wolf and Tim Redding are the 4th and 5th starter and no offensive upgrades are made (which is ridiculous/unthinkable), this team will finish in 3rd or 4th.
they have more money than that.. We’ll get Perez or Garland and a bat of some sort..
Really?!?! you see that , had the mets had a closer last year we would of been in first.
Maybe this is a blessing for all the Sheet lovers out there. No Lowe, No Perez only choice good choice left.
I wanted Manny and Lowe two months ago
but at this point would settle for Abreu&Ollie.
Sadly, though I don’t think we’ll get any of them. Could easily see omar Signing the always injured(and at best#4SP)Wolf for 2yrs
then giving Cora 2yr while not addressing the
OF at all.After that,we’ll hear how Church will
bounce back,Murphy will become a star and
Tatis will do what he did for us last year.
Lowe just doesn’t seem to be that good to me. Not like last year when Johan was the guy in their sights. Yeah, Lowe could be a nicce, solid middle rotation guy, but he doesn’t seem to be worth tying up that much payroll.
ANd I think if Lowe eludes them, then skip Ollie and go a different direction (FA or trade).
Wonder if Omar has Lowe as option 1, and if he fans there, make more radical moves (start the trade machine up!)
I agree I dont want Perez back. we have had him and he hasnt done anything. I would rather take my chance with wolf or sheets. plus boras will make us over pay for Perez. He is not worth it.
Matt, you mean “whoever blinks first WON’T get Lowe.”
Matt had it right. Blinking means dropping your shorts and accepting whatever Boras asked for, and getting Lowe.
Geez, the Mets are SO cheap. I’m really sick of this. Everybody complains about the Yankees overspending on players — going out and buying all the best free agents. But then the same people complain that the Mets don’t do the same thing.
Well, they don’t have to be crazy like the Yankees, but the Mets lean more toward the opposite end of the spectrum CHEAP!
My preference would be to have BOTH Lowe and Perez and NOT have Redding. But if I only could have one and I HAD to give a fourth year, I would take Perez, hands down, because I know that when his contract is up he’ll be only 31 or so and still have a useful life. With Lowe, you might get a better pitcher this year and MAYBE next year, but by the fourth year you’ll be looking at another Pedro Martinez situation. Ugggh.
I wish the Mets weren’t so damn ridiculous. They should have offered comparable 4 year contracts to both Lowe and Perez and signed them both. Can you imagine a rotation of Santana, Pelfrey, Lowe, Maine and Perez? With the revamped bullpen?
Having Redding is like having what we’ve had every year: Figueroa, Vargas, Lima, Gonzalez. In other words, crap..
And the offense isn’t going to be any good this year either. Delgado can’t be counted on, one of the two — Wright or Reyes — is likely to get hurt and no one else scares you.
Omar correctly fixed the bullpen, but now he is in danger of going into the season with several gaping holes left to fill.
Dude…it’s JANUARY. There are 2 1/2 months left of the offseason. You really think Omar isn’t going to sign at least one more starting pitching, and possibly sign/trade for a batter?
so, you don’t have to give up a later year’s pick?
this “older comments” “newer comments” option stinks.. How about just an old fashioned message board? trying to continue conversations is now a process.
I understand the importance of not loading every message every time someone refreshes but could you at least change the way it functions.
Maybe based when the time of the post happened. Cause it seems like its strictly base on numbers. So if I just so happen to be post 200, I get screwed my post goes to the bottom of “older comments” regardless of when I post it
Honestly I’d just give the 4th year to Lowe. The fact is, signing Perez at this point isn’t an upgrade from last year at all. We’d have the exact same rotation only Redding instead of Pedro.
Why don’t we go for John Garland, he’s really a decent pitcher who I think can really add value and be had on the cheap.
He’s a lifetime 4.47 ERA and doesn’t walk people. Not a bad American League ERA considering he played for the W-Sox against Cleveland and Minnesota (TOUGH TEAMS).
I think he’s the Sleeper in this market, especially for a National League Team.
For all the money in Lowe you could get Wolf & Garland Lefty & a Righty) and move Redding to long relief. I’d say that’s a couple of innings eaters and insures us from wearing the B-Pen down again if 1 or 2 starters get injured (as is usually the case).
Think of it, Lowe gets hurt, you’re screwed. But 2 for the price of one? If one gets hurt or under-performs, the other should be decent. And although I admit these guys aren’t world beaters they are quality veterans (Not the Top of the scrap heap)
You don’t need World beaters (i.e see Phillies, one world beater ,Hamels and 4 decent pitchers, Moyer, Blanton, etc….)
Bottom line, this deal doesn’t hurt and makes you DEEEEEP in Pitching. Remember when you pitch on a team with an offense, it’s likely they’ll pitch better as once they get a decent lead they can coast through innings rather then feel like every pitch is their last (Playing for a crappy team)
Any thoughts or comments on this strategy?
Lowe has to be the guy to target right now… if he wants 4 years, give it to him. He’s consistent. He’s quality. He’s stable. He’s everything that Perez is not.
That said, if Lowe can not be had, I’d take Perez back in a sec, as he will be the only quality starter left available.
Sign both perez and lowe, that’s the dumbest thing i’ve ever heard.
I agree with Cerrone, Boras is going to corner Minaya with Perez if lowe signs with the braves, mine as well outbid the braves and give a 4th year to a reliable pitcher
Signing both Lowe and Perez is dumb?
I’m hoping that you are being sarcastic. If not, then perhaps the Mets payroll expenses come out of YOUR pocket and therefore you don’t want to spend the money.
Other than that, I can’t imagine why you think having a rotation that contains both Lowe and Perez along with what they already have (minus Redding) wouldn’t be a POSITIVE thing for the Mets.
If they were both the exact same type of pitcher (i.e., righthanded sinkerbal pitchers or lefthanded junkball pitchers), then I could see it being somewhat dumb to sign them both. You want to give the opposition different looks. But one is a righthanded hard throwing groundball pitcher and the other is a lefthanded fastball, slider, curveball, flyball pitcher.
The question isn’t who is better. That’s a false argument. The Mets need BOTH.
trs, since you seem to be the authority on FA draft pick compensation…
do you know if a team that no longer has it’s picks because they have already lost them by signing FAs, do they lose picks in later years?
also, can they sign a free agent that requires two picks if they only have one or no picks to send back?
First type A signing – lose 1st round pick
Second type A signing – lose 2nd round pick
etc, etc, etc
So the Mets would lose their 2009 2nd round pick if they signed Lowe. They’d gain a sandwich pick (in between 1st and 2nd rounds) if someone else signs Ollie.
but, type a free agents cost two picks, right? so, first signing is a 1st rounder plus a sandwich pick in the supplemental draft, right? so, signing a second fa, you send your 2nd rounder and ANOTHER supplemental pick?
is that how it works?
the sandwich pick comes from MLB; not the team doing the signing.
and those rules are why the Yankees are only giving a 3rd round pick for Burnett to the Jays
i just need a good link to the rules if someone has it.
If you look on the left side, Matt posted link to where it was discussed last year, and in there the link to the Keith Law/ESPN story.
Casey,
The Compensatory round is a Made Up MLB round between Rounds 1 and 2. Only teams that have lost a Type A free agent get to draft in that round.
So if Ollie signs with another team the mets would get a pick in this round.
That part i might be wrong on is this. If the Mets Sign Lowe(Type A) they have signed 2 Type A’s. So they should lose a 1 and 2. But if Ollie Signs elsewhere, then the Mets get a 1 in return. So do the Mets then Lose both 1’s in this senario and start in the compensatory and go from round 2 beyond, or do they keep the first they get back from Ollie and lose their 1st and 2nd?
i love how everyone is saying to just give lowe the 4th year, and wonder how many of them will be on here bit*hing when lowe is 40yrs old, and suc*ing…..I can’t say I would be racing to give him 4 yrs….Furthermore, the braves still havent actually made an offer yet!!! Until omar sees what their offer is, he has to be in a holding pattern…..dont you guys realize this?
Dont you realize that in his fourth year he’ll only be 39? If the Braves only offer him a guaranteed 4th year at $12 mil per the Mets could go 3 for $14, with a club option 4th of $14 with a buy out of $6 mil. That would match the Bravos 4 for $48 at less years. Then it would be up to Lowe if he wants to go to a contender or just toil away his final years with an also-ran.
How can Ollie be an option to “upgrade” the rotation? Wouldn’t signing him be merely maintaining the rotation.
Yes it would, although maintaining last year’s rotation with this year’s pen should equate to about 10 more wins.
The bigger problem is the Mets are expecting too much from an offense that includes Murph/Tatis, Church, Schneider, and Church. I love Church and Murphy/Tatis, but they can’t be counted on to deliver like last year. Even Delgado is a question mark as to exactly what we are going to get.
That is why if Ollie is cheaper than Lowe I would just try to bring him back and use the savings on upgrading the offense. And not on Orlando Hudson.
I know Manny isn’t an option (even though he should be), but trading for a power bat like Nady or signing an Adam Dunn type needs to be done. I would go with
Reyes, Church, Wright, Delgado, Beltran, Nady or Dunn, Schneider/Castro, Castillo
Meant to say castillo instead of writing Church twice.
I would lobby MLB to change the rules to allow Church to bat twice in place of Castillo since Castillo is obviously handicapped and cannot perform the duties of his position even WITH reasonable accomodation.l
Hell, I hate the DH, but I might even go for the DH and let the pitcher hit and sit Castillo in favor of the DH.
How can Ollie be an option to “upgrade” the rotation? Wouldn’t signing him be merely maintaining the rotation.
Stay the course, Omar. Don’t give in to that bastard Boras.
hahah,, your awesome!! lol, It took me way to long to realize what the point of this board really is.. Get em all jacked up
Hey darth, we agree on something …. I don’t like the newer/older comments bit either. It stinks.
Matt go back to the old format……
Yeah i’ll give lowe the 4th year because he’s STABLE. Yeah lets give it to Ollie and watch him walk the ball park on any given night. He’s being signed for the immediate future, the 4th year is just to get him here.
Like overpaying never happens….
Here’s the thing — If the Mets miss out on BOTH Lowe and Perez, there are still very viable options left.
I’d love to have Sheets on the team, as-suming his arm is not falling off.
And don’t forget Marti may soon be available to ML teams. I want to see the Mets look into him.
Don’t play Boras game, Omar!
They haven’t fix the site, I’m out of here. I can’t deal with this type of setup, you post and don’t where it went.
MLBTR has a post up about the Braves, quoting Wren (the GM) as saying he has various trade offers on his desk for SP, and may go that way.
Could be bluffing on Boras, could be valid. or both.
Of course, people froget that Omar could decide to swing a trade too if the FA deals aren’t attractive enough.
Jan 1 – We’re confident in signing Lowe
– Braves get in on Lowe –
Jan 12 – We’re confident in signing either Lowe or Perez
– Yankees get in on Perez –
Jan 24 – We’re confident in signing Pedro instead
I was going to say with all this talk about the braves. they now have a rotation of the following in place:
1. J. Jurrjens
2. J. Vazquez
3. Kenshin Kawakami
4. J. Campillo
5. C. Morton
6. J. Reyes
They are also paying for Tim Hudson this season as well as he comes off Tommy John Surgury.
well y dont we give him a 3 year deal club option for 4th worth 15 mill we got the money we barley spent any money this off season.