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Jon Heyman of SI.com believes the Braves offered Derek Lowe a four-year contract, worth close to $60 million.
According to Heyman, “Lowe is in serious discussions with the Braves.”
Last night on the MLB Network’s Hot Stove show, Heyman said the Mets are discouraged by negotiations with Lowe, who is also being pursued by the Braves, ‘any maybe the Phillies, and maybe the Brewers.’
Heyman also reports, “The Mets are proposing a three-year deal for close to $30 million for Perez, although, a four-year deal for Lowe, may convince them they need to give him another year.”
…this is what i have been saying for a few days now, in that, if the Mets lose lowe to the Braves, knowing the market at that point, it would not surprise me if the Mets end up having to give perez a four-year deal as well…
…i believe, if the Mets need to dish out a four-year deal, the four-year deal should go to lowe, because, while he’s older, he’s also significantly more consistent, and that is what should be most important to the Mets right now – not youth and left-handedness…but, i have a feeling i may be alone in this view…
Heyman believes Omar Minaya would rather sign Perez, while the Mets front office prefers Lowe.
“We do have offers out there,” Minaya told reporters in a conference call. “You never know. You’re negotiating. As far as something happening soon, I don’t know that… I’m not going to tell you I’m too confident. I would say that’s it’s 50-50, and we’ll see what happens.”
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Boy that’s going to be an even poll. What it does leave out is this
Lowe 4/60
Perez 4/44-48.
Makes a big difference.
Excellent work by NY Sports Dog, to uncover some personal issues that Lowe has had, and may be what is holding back Omar, and the family first Wilpons. Among other points:
“Additionally, Lowe is reported to be a big drinker, and the habit extends to night’s before he pitches.
“He has a drinking problem,” said Someone close to the ex-Sox hurler. “And a lot of his problems come when he drinks. And he wouldn’t deal with it and that’s why the Red Sox wouldn’t re-sign him.”
Rumors about Lowe’s womanizing and drinking have been out there for years. At one point, he upset the Boston Red Sox owner John Henry by bringing a woman–not his wife–to a team function.
Lowe was told that the family-oriented Henry would be upset that he’d be so bold as to show up with a girlfriend,. But Lowe thought he knew better.
“He’s a guy, he’ll understand,” Lowe said.”
nysportsdog.blogspot.com/2009/01/whispers-did-derek-lowes-past-hurt-him.html
If a team (Mets) make a 3/36 offer, the next logical step is NOT 4/60. It’s either 3/39 or 4/49. (taken from my MLBTR post) What are the Braves thinking jumping all the way to 4/60?
I guess I’d be alright with 4 years of Perez..but I would hope that the Mets try and get a hitter of that happens.
I am guessing the Mets offer, that was never made, was closer to 3/40.
They’re thinking they desperately need a starter, any starter–and any kind of good news after the Smoltz debacle.
TRS I have to agree. thinking more and more about this..I am really okay with either as long as we get one of them.
Prismo The Braves are in pretty dire straits…they have to offer big money to get people to listen…
Ollie. No question. I like Lowe, but not on a 4 year deal.
In a side note, one encouraging quote from Redding in his conference call yesterday:
Lowe: “Starter, reliever, it doesn’t matter to me,”
So maybe he’ll be the long man if Omar can fill the rotation elsewhere?
LOL. That should obviously say Redding before the quote….not Lowe!!
Oops!!
hello Aaron Heilman’s replacement!!
kidding, but can we wait until ST before getting into that debate with a new pitcher?
I have read a few people mention Darren Olivers name in comparison with Redding so I guess his versatility is already a plus.
btw, Redding will be under the Mets control in 2010 as well, one more year of arbitration before he is a FA. It’s a nice plus, as they can keep or non-tender him.
I hear ya about the debate. But I was more so keeping the options open for more starters to be added now.
And Redding was a free agent now, as he’ll be after the 2009 season.
fyi, Redding was a free agent because he was non-tendered by the Nats. But he has less than 5 years of service time now, so he won’t be able to declare himself a free agent after this season.
Redding’s 30, and has been pitching in the majors since 2001. I don’t know his contract status, but I would think he’s got enough service time to be a free agent after his one-year contract with the Mets.
He’s only spent two of those years in the majors the whole year. Its all adds up to slightly under five years of service time.
refer to the new service time numbers when they comes out in March. Its not of major import, but it is how the system works.
The Mets had this same situation when they signed the non-tendered Ramon Castro and then held his rights for two or three more years. Same thing applies to Brandon Knight this offseason, who is 33 and pitched in the big leagues in 2001 as well. Less than six years of service time means you can’t be a free agent unless the team non-tenders you.
I agree Daryl. I think if you are looking at a 2-3 year deal, then Lowe is the guy. But for four years, you have a potential injury risk, with a 40 yr old pitcher on the back end of that contract.
With Ollie however, you have a young lefty just entering his prime, and will be just 31 at the end of the deal. He has never had any injury issues, which is obviously a plus. In addition, lefties tend to mature a little bit later than right handed pitchers, so if Ollie is ever going to get it together, it will likely be over the course of this deal.
Clearly, I’d love both guys but if I had to give one guy a 4 year deal, its Ollie. Even with the money, you can argue that Ollie’s upside is worth $10+million/year, while Lowe is most certainly not a $15M/year pitcher.
I like OLLIE, And I think that the pen made him look worse than he really was. With a good stable pen, I think OLLIE can be a good pitcher and he is younger and a Lefty. Last season as soon as the startee left the game it was like BP. The METS knew and so did the other team. It will NOT be lik ethat in 2009. The prssure will be on te othe rteam to score early and take th elead before the 7, 8 or 9. That really changes the game and takes th epressure of the BATS as well. I really think that 2009 will be mor elike 2006, or, rather, what we thought 2007 should have been. LETS GO METS !!!
How about option C.
Sign Sheets and Garland.
while we the fans have been screaming for duh moves like sheets and dunn…i dont see the mets listening to us
Or…sign Sheets and Ollie!!
And just not draft this year.
The Mets don’t have that much money to spend either. Ollie’s going to take 12 million I am guessing.
The money may be an issue, but it shouldn’t.
As far as the draft goes, I’m not too concerned. Omar just needs to make it up in the International scene this year.
I’ll take whatever is our best shot at a championship this year, over anything we can get in the draft.
If anybody should get 4 years, it is Ollie. He is 27, and has the upside of being a number one. Lowe does not have that upside. I say, let ATL have him at that cost. They will regret it in 3 years. The Mets already dealt with this nonsense with Pedro and don’t need to deal with it again. Sign the young guys, and next year we will have Santana, Pelfrey, Perez, and Maine locked up with Niese hopefully coming into his own. That is a staff of 5 sub-30’s pitchers set to dominate for years to come. With Delgado and others coming off the books, the Mets can focus their $$ on hitting next offseason.
TRS i agree and not to mention 4 years of lowe has him at 41 at the end of the contract….Atlanta ponying up bigtime…
do the math people!!!!
Lowe is 35 right now!! He will be 36 in June. Then 37, 38, 39. He will be 39 at the end of a 4 year contract. Thirty-fricken-nine. Not forty!!!!! Not forty-one. 39!!!
Maine and Pelfrey are too young to not hire another steady hand for the line up. The downside to upside is that some people never reach it.
I understand we fear old people. But remember that we are much younger now with this team. And perez is more likely to get injured with his erratic style.
Just sign Perez and move on from Lowe. His age is a concern and even know he might be better then Perez we at least know Perez will still be pretty young in 4 years…
Sign Perez, bring back Pedro and have Pedo/Niese/Redding battle for the #5 and use either Pedro or Redding in long relief. If Niese doesn’t get the job then off to AAA.
I want the Mets to get a pitcher quickly so Omar can concentrate on other things to improve the offense. I heard Hudson might be down to a 1 year deal and not to expensive. Have him and Castillo on the team and Castillo can be a bench player. Expensive but oh well!!!!
if Hudson is going to take a one year deal he better go to a team that will give him a starting job without competition. Or he’ll be back in the same situation next winter.
He would have no competition on the Mets. Castillo would basically be a bench player. If he doesn’t like that then he can quit…
He would not be competing. He would come under the condition that the Mets would be trying to trade Castillo.
I would think the Mets would rather dump Castillo first of course.
Surely there has to be a team that would take him for 2 million a year.
Well if they can get Hudson extremely cheap then I think they do it. I am positive they would prefer to trade Castillo 1st but I would hope if Hudson signs a one year deal then the Mets would jump in on that no matter where they stand with Castillo..
I have to agree with everyone else 4/60 is just too much. Lowe is a good pitcher but he’s not that much of a difference maker. Suppose you sign Perez AND Wiggy for the price of Lowe? Or Sheets AND Garland for the price of Lowe? Is he THAT much better?
How does Wiggy help?
Seriously? Look at the guys numbers. Put him in LF and send Tatis to the bench and Murphy to the minors to learn 2B.
He’s a career .270/.330/.460 hitter. That’s nothing great. If you’re going to sign someone for LF, sign Dunn.
Wiggy’s numbers are very much inflated, as he takes advantage of playing in a park for right handed batters.
avg / obp/ slg/ ops
Wiggy 2008 Home: .343/.390/.691/1.081
Wiggy 2008 Away: .234/.316/.380/.696
Wiggy Career: .270/.330/.460/.790
SIGN BEN SHEETS!!
Alex, you got any connections? Can you get ahold of some medical records for us?
There HAS to be a reason no one is looking at him. It’s either contract demands or injury or both.
Yeah, I would really like to know myself. The more I look at Sheets, the better he looks. There has to be something in that medical record of his that has all steering away from him…..
lol, i know the real, but i just think that we shouldn’t get this bum perez again.. the best alternate is sheets… don’t you agree.. is a shame he ALWAYS gets hurt.. urgh.. i can’t imagine 4 years of perez.. or 3.. or 2..
The Mets watched Sheets pull himself out of a September game after five strong innings, without explanation–a game the Mets were behind but went on to win.
His next start he took the mound and pitched a shutout, and if a reason was ever given for his short previous start, I never saw it.
I think the Mets are justified in being wary of a pitcher like that.
Just sign ollie…makes no sense for the mets to match that offer.
now that we have Redding as the 5th spot in the rotation, does Omar go out and sign Sheets, Wolf, or Garland to an inventive laden deal? What’s the next move?
What will the braves rotation look like if they sign lowe?
Lowe would be their ace followed by Vasquez and a lot of question marks.
Jurrjens is not a question mark, hes a pretty good young pitcher.
Is Pelfrey still a question mark? I would say yes untill he does it for back to back years.
How is Pelfrey a question mark and Jurrjens not? They both have had one good year.
That’s my point, they both are.
Let’s give Jurrjens another turn around the league before we annoint him.
Those are two pretty good question marks — I’d take either one in my rotation.
Lowe/Jurrjens/Vasquez/Campillo/Reyes (Reyes -> Hudson when he’s healthy)
That’s what I’d guess anyway.
Vazquez, Lowe, Jurrjens, Capmillo, Reyes, L
Vazquez (bum), Lowe (overrated), Jurrjens (ok, don’t put fear in me yet), Capmillo (3 good games), Reyes (who), there, that’s their rotation..
Alex, lets be realistic, thats a pretty solid rotation.
Not to me..
Alex, dont forget about Kawakami, and glavine is still up in the air.
Funny you should mention Glavine. Wasn’t he the 35 year-old pitcher with great consistency and plenty of years left in him, that we signed to a fat 4-year contract some time ago?
lowe
vasquez
jurgens
reyes
?
-tim hudson might miss alot of time next year
D. Lowe
Kawakami
J. Jurrjens
J. Vazquez
T. Hudson (out until at least All-Star break)
Glavine?
Braves must be pretty desperate. And considering they got burned by the older rotation in ‘08, I’m surprised they’re going right back to the same thing. 4 years for Lowe? Just crazy. Let him go to Atlanta if that 4th year is what it’ll take to land him.
At least the Mets have seemed to learn their lesson on that.
Lowe
Vasquez
Jurrjens
Reyes
Morton/Campillo
The thing is, if Lowe gets 4 years at 15 mil there is no way Perez is taking 3 years at 9-10 mil. The market for Perez will go up if that Braves offer is correct.
The Mets will end up signing their second choice, and end up paying him more than they offered thier first choice…. Just pay Lowe if that is going to be the end result.
I agree with your reasoning.
I’m as big of a Lowe supporter as anyone on this board. I think it is a no-brainer that he is better than Ollie in the short-term and quite possibly over the duration of their next contracts.
Obviously 4 yrs 60m is waay too much for him. But you’re right that Ollie’s value will not be much lower than Lowe’s. And if the difference is $8m over 4 years or something like that, the Mets may as well pay for the guy they want.
Since when do the Braves go out and inflate the market like this?
for as long as they’ve been pretending to be a small market team….
Nate and Wanny,
Lowe is not setting any Market. He is an anomaly. And Ollie has NO market right now. Have you heard any team expressing any interest in Ollie? At least Sheets has the Rangers mildly interested. Ollie doesn’t even have the majority of his former team’s front office interested.
Whatever absurd contract the Braves give Lowe is not going to have much effect on Ollie. We should all be thankful Schuerholz is done, and we have Wren butchering the former Best Front Office in Baseball.
3 years, $30M with a $12M vesting option sounds about perfect for Ollie.
Sign Ollie, Abreu and get some insurance
for castillo. We’re a month to pitchers and catchers.
wow, not only u wanna sign ollie, but also ABREU???? wow, fongu, i just threw up my bagel!!
Alex, would you rather not upgrade the offense at all or sign Abreu to cheap. If those are the ONLY 2 options.
i rather see alou in left than this guy.. the thing is, i am a firm believer that when a player leaves the team and the team gets better or will get better by substracting you there must be something to that player.. i just wouldn’t touch him..
Abreu leaving the Phils had no direct relation with their success. Im sorry but i dont buy it.
Come on Alex, you are better than that. That is just dumb. So the Mets got worse when Trax left. Does that mean we should have kept him?
This is not basketball. If Abreu puts up better numbers than the current LF then the team is better, period.
You think that Wright’s going to stop hitting because Abreu is hitting in front of him?
The Phillies got better because Rollins started playing over his head, Howard emerged and they actually had 1 pitcher that could actually pitch. You think Cole Hamels became an Ace because Abreu left?
ok, ok, trs, i said is ok, but that’s just my believe.. there’s something about him i don’t like.. when i see a player that is afraid of walls or to get their uniform dirty making 15 mill a year brings out bad vibes in the clubhouse.. that’s what happened in philly when he was gone.. the team overall got better..
Yuk, that was nasty. I want Manny But since
that aint gonna happen,what else is out
there? We need a corner OFer who will make
a diff in the line-up and I just think Abreu in
the 2hole really helps those infront and behind him.Look, the guy takes a ton of pitches,we dont have to worry about distractions w/him and he’ll play 150+gms,
hit.300+,score 100runs,40+2Bs,20HRs,100RBIs&20SB.
I dont see where else omar can go to get
that especially at like 2/20Mil..
ok guys, i let you have him since i know omar will sign him anyways.. ok fongu and 718 and TRS, u sold me..
Thanks, But I’ve felt for a month now Omars
not gonna add anything to the OF.
He’ll just say, Tatis has turned his career around,Church is healthy and they expect
big things from Murph&Evans.Oh,and Reed
is a wildcard who could really develop.
It’s a buyer’s market on offense. Get Abreu and Wiggy/Hudson.
well, he better hope tatis kinda develops into whatever he thinks he will becoz last i checked he was out of base ball for a reason.. and that murphy comes trough, otherwise it’d be mayhem in NY..
I know man, thats my point.Omar nevers
seems to understand when he catches
lightning. Tatis is just as likely to give us
nothing as some of the huge hits he got
before getting hurt last yr..Church is so overrated by many of my fellow fans,its
crazy eddie,crazy.And who knows if he’ll be
healthy. As for Murph,i hope the kid becomes
great but like i said yesterday, Hes just as
likely to be a cross b/t magadan&Jefferies.
well, i am very scare of tatis, but church is not even rated, let alone over, omar always does that to get praised, he gets a bunch of bums to see which one works out, then 1 out of 10 works out and we seem to forget the other 9.. it bothers me but no, he’s a genius to the mets front office.. those are the real responsible for the collapse the past 2 years.. specually by
Did I miss something? Lowe already signed
with the Braves?
since the braves lost smoltz the reports have said that thier 3000 fans are upset and wanted someone with the equivalence of smoltz..
but they brought back Glavine…
shouldnt that give them a few years grace with thier fans? :)
smoltz was iconic status in atlanta.. glavine left but maddux smoltz and the joneses were still there.. now is only chipper..
I at this point would keep the same offer to Lowe, the same offer to Perez and if they take it fine. Otherwise ride it out. There will be some bargains later.
Garland, Sheets, Wolf, Pedro, Looper, Byrd, Colon, Garcia, Glavine (LOL), Livan, Mulder, Odalis Perez, Pettitte, Prior
SHEETS!!
Out of them, I like Sheets, Garland, Garcia, and Pettite.
I only like Sheets if we’re talking about a regular starter. Otherwise I’d consider Wolf and Pedro for 5th starter competition. The rest I wouldnt offer more than a ST invite. Or just not bother with because they want way too much in relation to the market.
Garland wants more than the supposed offer made to Perez, so I can’t see him as an option. And Pettitte turned down being overpaid by the only team he wants to play for anyway…
None of those guys can fill a role higher than 4-5 in a rotation except for Sheets. And as you’ve said dozens of times, there’s something rotten in his medical reports. If teams are willing to entertain Wolf, who has pitched fewer innings at lesser quality than Sheets, then clearly Sheets has a bright red flag hanging over him.
I’d want no part of Wolf for more than one year.
To me it’s got to be Lowe or Ollie, with a much greater importance on signing the former than the latter.
Thing is with these guys you could sign 2 of them OR 1 and upgrade the offense.
The difference between Lowe and Ollie is probably not going to be the difference maker for this team in 2009.
The difference between another legitimate bat and the lineup as presently constituted probably is going to make that difference.
How about we sign El Duque and get Alou for left?
On minor league contracts if they don’t want to retire? Why not?
I was thinking 2 + option major league deals.
really??
Um… no. Not really.
LOL, thank god.. i sense you were serious for a moment there..
not even wit a 50 foot pole..
51 foot?
How ’bout a Bonds/Sosa platoon?
yeah.. ok.. lol, pretty funny thought though
El Duque and Alou platoon for left? Can you imagine El Duque throwing an ephus relay throw into Reyes…it’d still be better than Johnny Damon.
Their both righties, so it’s not a natural platoon, but since they’re both so often injured maybe by platooning them we could get 10-15 games out of them.
“They’re” both rightines, not “their.” I’m an idiot.
It’s funny when some say Ollie kills a bullpen. Last season Lowe failed to get to the 6th inning 13 times! And that’s pitching in a pitchers park. Expect his numbers to get worse this season as he moves to the NL East and is a year older. You can’t give a pitcher like this $15-16 million a year. Whoever does will regret it.
THANK YOU!! this guy was a product of pitching in dodger stadium and against the NL WEST.. he’s just not that good..
I don’t want Lowe, but he only failed to get into the sixth inning 7 times. I don’t count the last game of the season when he was obviously on a pitch count heading into the playoffs and only went three innings.
I don’t know why I am arguing the point though, because Lowe is most certainly a product of the weak hitting NL West and Dodger Stadium. I would much rather have Ollie.
If Lowe is such a product of the “weak hitting NL West” can you explain the strength of his numbers against the Phillies?
people!!!! stop it!! we don’t play the phillies 162 times a year!! nad if we did we’d still win the division, they are the championss true but they are not a juggernaut that we have to make every pitcher a good pitcher against the phillies before we sign them, jesus, if we sign redding thinking “oh he’d beat the phillies 3 times last year” we are in serious problems, becoz that means he went 7-10 with a 5.25 ERA against EVERYBODY ELSE!! we have a problem beating teams like the nats, marlins, pirates, we son’t have a problem beating the phillies, dodgers, brewers.. ppl stop with this phillie obsession, we’re starting to sound like them!!!
What numbers are you speaking of?
His ERA vs. the Phillies last year is 4.24!
You call that good?
Even if they were good, that’s just one team!
Fair point about the last game and my math was off … but just a little, so ….
He pitched less than 6 innings 11 times during the season. That’s what I meant. So it meant the bullpen had to cover at least 4 innings 11 times. That’s a strain on the pen and he certainly doesn’t deserve $15-16 mill for that.
Lowe averaged a half an inning more per start than Ollie.
LOL, so he deserves 15-16 mill for getting 1.5 more batters out per game than Ollie?
Not at his age. His numbers will get worse due to age and park factors while Ollie’s are likely to get better. So that difference of 1.5 outs is likely to get narrower this season and in the coming years.
Perez is coming off a 4.7 FIP (which is park adjusted). Lowe is coming off a 3.2 FIP. Lowe is a career 3.7 FIP guy. Lowe is a 4.7 FIP guy. They are not close in quality.
You can’t compare a career number for a guy who’s 35 and spent half of that as a reliever with the career number of a young lefty who’s just coming into his own.
Are you joking?
And FIP? Provide a link that describes how they park adjust that.
IMO; neither Perez nor Lowe are good enough to command all this money and all this precious time; Omar, please proceed to Plan B.
Let’s git it on!
I like Ollie.
-Steps up for the big game.
-Younger
-Comfortable here w Mets
-Lefty w dirty stuff.
-Shut down Phils and Yanks.
No doubt lowe is consistent and would prove to be a great tutor to Pelfrey, atlhough Big Pelf appears to be getting along just fine.
I like Ollie.
-Steps up for the big game.(did you watch game 162 last year??)
-Younger (but immature)
-Comfortable here w Mets (maybe so)
-Lefty w dirty stuff. (100% right.. but don’t always use ti his advantage)
-Shut down Phils and Yanks.(6 times a year i agree.. the other 26 starts is the problem)
GET BEN SHEETS!!
Beforw we think Ollie is a lock, lets just remember, Ollie has Boras and if anyone thinks they are going to get Ollie for 3 yrs 30 million we are fooling ourselves. The Mets have to give a legit offer here or else we will be shut out of both Lowe and Ollie
I’ll take Ollie at less years and money. I truly believe he can become consistent and showed he can be dominant.
Maybe a change in the catcher would help him. Another year of pitching with the Johan the Great wouldn’t hurt either.
Let the Braves overpay and give me Ollie, Pedro and Garcia.
Omar still needs to address other issues, so this needs to get done quick. There are still question marks with left field, middle infield bench, second base, catcher, and the bullpen.
Sign Ollie. Give him 4/48 and be done with it. He is 27, has electric stuff, and just got married so he may show some more maturity this year.
For all of you who are complaining about losing draft picks if we sign Ollie (ie. losing the picks the Mets would gain if he signs elsewhere) there are a few points. There are some teams where if he signs the mets will get a 3rd or 4th round pick. And besides that if the mets continue with the slotting system and don’t go for the high cieling players in the draft it doesn’t really matter what picks they get anyway!
Why aren’t people complaining about the picks the mets would lose if they sign Lowe? So you want to sign a 37 year old for 4 years – and lose draft picks?
Sign lowe – if they are lucky they get 4/58 and lose some picks.
Sign Perez – 4/48 and keep your picks but don’t gain any
Sign the other players and you have inferior pitchers. Sheets is the exception but he might only pitch 200 innings (over the couse of the 4 year deal a la Pavano)
Just someone please sign Ollie soon so I know what team I will be rooting for in 2009! (Hopefully the Mets to I can see him on tv every 5th day)
Actually, we don’t keep any picks for signing Ollie. If the Mets let Ollie walk, they get the signing team’s 1st round pick, and a compensation pick. Those picks are protected, so if they sign Lowe, it would cost them their 2nd round pick.
If you think that signing a 35+ year old to a 4-year deal is a good idea, then you obviously haven’t learned much from the past..
especially in the post ‘roid era.
BAllplayers simply dont improve after 35y/o.
How many innings has Lowe thrown compared to other 35 yo pitchers?
Lowe has thrown only 300 more MLB innings than John Garland, who is 29.
Why is that a bad thing. Yes you don’t have the wear and tear on your arm, but your age is what takes a tole on your arm. Not the innings per sae. It wasn’t the number of innings that got to Tom Glavine and Greg Maddox. It was their Age.
You are talking about Lowe, who is a ground ball pitcher. He Relies on a heavy sinking fastball. As has been evident in Many Many starting Pitchers with that type of stuff AGE is a major factor. You lose 1 to 2 MPH off that pitch, it starts to not dip that extra inch, and you have a Major Major problem.
look at what happened when they gave a four year deal to an aging pedro martinez. he was good for 2 of them. its wiser to get/stay younger.
Correction, He was good for one then OK for
the other before getting hurt and alon with
Duque likely cost us a Championship.
why don’t we just trade for a starter.. im willing to give up talent to get a #1,2 starter. i def dont think lowe is worth 4/60…save that money! Trade for a pitcher, someone better then LOWE, and get us a FEARED number 2 guy. How about bedard or oswalt anyone?
I’d give up anyhting for oswalt.. i give omar the rest of the year off if he pulls that deal..
Trade who? Sign FA and build the farm via int’l signings and draft players w/ high potential.
just because i heard the parallel between lowe and pedros 4 year deals at the same age. big difference. pedro as a youngster was a fireballer with great changeup. age normally wears on those guys more because i small decrease in velo leads to a less effective change. but for a guy like lowe who is a sinkerballer, he can just as easily be affective sitting at 92-93 or 88-89. so the age thing effects lowe a little bit less.
add in the fact that lowes last few years have been pretty good and not a decline from his younger years, while pedros velocity was already coming off a few miles an hour and he was showing the signs of aging.
i really wouldnt mind lowe on a 4 year deal.
That’s is 100% wrong.
The Change-up Fastball Pitchers can be way more effective if they lose velocity. Yes their K’s will go down, but look at Greg Maddox compared to Pedro. They threw the same 4 pitches. One threw the fastball in the Mid-High 90’s. The other was at the high 80’s to low 90’s. Fastball Change-up is all about control and accuracy. Which both had.
A sinker ball pitcher is heavily reliant on his Fastball. See Kevin Brown. If he loses even 1-2 MPH on that fastball it makes it remarkably hittable, and the MPH difference makes the ball not dip as much, becoming a straighter pitch that is way easier to hit. See early years of all sinker ballers.
So the Age Factor on a Pitcher who relies on a sinker-baller is more of a concern then someone who relies on a fastball-changeup.
This is easily Evident by who pitches later in their careers. What does Moyer, Maddox, even Glavine throw. Fastball, Changeup.
Name me a Sinkerballer who was effective into his late 30’s and 40’s. Because i can’t think of one.
Let the Braves have him for 4/60. He can drag them down instead of the Mets.
Ollie would be fine. I also won’t mind if Omar goes a different direction and puts together a rotation from the rest of the available guys without going LT on any of them (2 years max). Then gets to work on the line up.
Lowe is not good enough to invest 4/60, not at his age.
And if there is a chance they can snag some hitters like Abreu and Hudson (note, I am not huge fan of either!) for below market deals, especially if kept to 2 years max, then save the $$ on SPs and invest it in bats.
Frankly, Abreu and and Hudson over the LF platoon and Castillo probably does make the line up much more potent.
And no, I don’t know where this leaves Murphy. Ideally in AAA learning his next position? Super subbing? Traded?
In any case, just keep the imports to shrot term deals.
What? Abreu&Hudson wouldnt make our lineup more potent?
Sorry stickguy, my bad. Coffee hasn’t kicked
in yet.
agree 100% stick
15mil per year for 4 years for a now 36yr old pitcher just sounds irrational to me.
Trade for Sanchez with the Giants and then wait out the SP market and get a bargain.
And what are you going to offer the Giants to make them willing to move a very young fireballing lefty? Unfortunately, Victor Zambrano is no longer with the Mets
Agree for the price of Lowe you could sign Abreu and Hudson and trade for a Sanchez type.
While many baseball analysts thought this off-season was going to be economic death for pitchers it appears that Boras has figured out a way to stick it to teams. While there are options for teams with money there does not seem to be ANY for mid-market on down. And pitchers are not getting what they usually do. Boras appears smarter than most are giving him credit. Now please pay attention to the word “appears”. For all we know the Braves have nothing on the table, Boras is blowing smoke up you know where, and the Mets are still the front runners for Lowe. We might even have a 3rd team who comes in a steals the headline and grabs Lowe (i.e. like the Yanks did with Tex).
I am at the point where the posturing by Boras and all the teams is getting tiring. It’s not that I just want some good news for the Mets or that I want Boras to give up. I am getting annoyed with the cheap business tactics the Wilpons/Minaya and Boras are using. I expect things like this from struggling businesses which are trying to eek out a nickle from a vendor.
Time to quit the crap folks. Mets: you have the money…spend it. Boras: your clients are going to lose out and become resentful if you keep up the alienating tactics.
ollie is is met thru and thru. sign him. plus why pay lowe big bucks when he is 40?
p.s. sign manny before he gets away
sign Ollie, he’s capable of winning 15 if his babysitters pay close attention.
…I just don’t wanna see the other pitcher go to Braves or Philly.
It’s oversimplified to not want to offer Lowe 4 years because he’s 35. Moyer’s won 168 games since he turned 35. Randy Johnson won 81 games in the 4 years between 35 and 39. Perez being younger doesn’t itself make him a better 4 year investment than Lowe.
Realistically, the Mets have to sign one of these two pitchers, so the question here is not about their absolute value, but about their value relative to one another. By the time negotiating is done, the difference between their contracts is going to be somewhere between 3-5 million a year. To me, for the stability Lowe brings, that’s a no-brainer…
Good point mdemaio, but to be fair, for every pitcher you name that had success after 35, posters on here can name 4 who didn’t.
Moyer, and Even Randy Johnson don’t rely on the type of pitch that Lowe throws.
Moyer is a Fastball Change-up, Slider/curve pitcher, so is Johnson, Maddox, Glavine, etc etc.
Name me a sinker-baller who was effective late in his career.
This is because if you lose MPH off your fastball, your done. Those grounders turn into Line Drives and your ERA sky rockets.
Hershiser was a sinkerballer who won 56 games from 35-39 when his fastball had diminished considerably…Maddux had a very effective sinker and used it quite a bit in his later years with a fastball in the mid-high 80s. Sinkerballers are relatively rare historically, so it’s hard to find examples at all, let alone ones who were effective later in their careers.
Lowe’s not just a sinkerballer…he’s got an effective slider and curve as well, and a decent enough fastball. As long as he keeps the ball down, he’ll be fine. He’s a smart pitcher and a great competitor, a lot like Maddux and Hershiser…he’ll make adjustments. To me he’s still a better gamble than an unstable Perez…
So what you are saying, is because Jamie Moyer (the exception to every pitching rule in the book) and Randy Johnson (a first ballot Hall of Famer), both have had success past 35, that it guarantees Lowe will as well?
Lets take a closer look.
Lowe since becoming a starter in 2002: (OPS/ERA/IP)
2002(BOS): .567/2.58/219.2 (Age 28)
2003(BOS): .735/4.47/203.1
2004(BOS): .786/5.42/182.2
2005(LA): .711/3.61/222.0
2006(LA): .668/3.63/218.0
2007(LA): .690/3.88/199.1
2008(LA): .634/3.24/211.0 (Age 35)
I am not even going to post Randy Johnson’s numbers. Comparing him to Derek Lowe is an insult to baseball fans everywhere. But it’s pretty clear to me that Derek Lowe has clearly benefited from moving to LA, and that he is in no way deserving of a 4 Year, $60M deal.
What I said was that age itself is not a reason to dismiss Lowe. Pitchers can be effective in their mid-late 30s, especially smart pitchers who’ve had a track record of success. As for his stats improving in LA, it’s also possible that he became a better pitcher as he learned more about the game…that can happen as you get older…
also, someone up above mentinoed that teh other optins (beyond Lowe and Ollie) were no better than #4s (although they are also likely to be paid that way).
Well, that would be fine anyway. The Mets already have 3 guys set (I am as-suming Maine comes back strong after having the bone spur removed, which was obviously impacting him).
I am cool with the top 3, so if they add some solid guys behind them, that is enough SP (as-suming they also go 7 deep!).
Load up on offense if it is going cheap on the clearance rack.
you know, no one is talking about this, but johan is coming off knee surgery.
I agree with making a big push for Sheets after we get Ollie or Lowe. The upside of Sheets is higher than any pitcher available this offseason. I healthy Sheets for the playoffs makes this team incredibly tough to beat and Redding is the perfect insurance policy is he goes down.
I know this discussion is not about the Citifield patch but look at the difference it’s embarrasing.
I meant the difference between the yankees and Mets patches.
OMAR just sign Perez give him the 4yrs and then go take a chance on Sheets 2 yr/16mil can get it done. I’m sure everyone agrees if we can take a chance on El Doodoo Hernandez and Julio need a crutch Franco….then we can take a chance at a potential Cy Young when healthy in Ben Sheets.
My feeling here is that the Mets should give the money to Perez. Oliver has handled himself more than adequately in New York and always given the team chances to win in big games. Also, he’s 27…….younger than Gil Meche was when he signed a 5-year 55 million deal 2 years ago and younger than Carlo Silva was when he signed a 4-year 48 million deal last year. It’s a down economy but this is a young pitcher entering his prime who will still be pitching for another contract (he’ll be 31 at the end of a 4-year deal). Lowe, on the other hand, will be nearing 40 and likely retirement. I just think the Mets should pony up and re-sign Perez and show some loyalty to a guy who has not been the problem for this club through a more than problematic two years. Hopefully this is what the Mets had in mind and why they are backing off Lowe.
your right… but that’s the least of our troubles my friend.
I agree just hate to see Lowe going to an east div opponent.
4 for 60 doesnt seem logical, to me it almost seems like the braves drove the price up to mess with the mets.
at that price they can have him
with boras as the agent its not like hes gonna come to the mets and say match it, hes gonna say he wants 4 at 16 per
Ya know for yrs and yrs until the ‘roid era,
GMs were always w careful giving up on
hard throwing lefties as they’d always seemed to develop later.Ollie has already shown hes unaffraid in a big spot and had
flashes of being a top of the rotation guy.
No doubt, he’s a work in progress and makes
us crazy BUT if not him, where are we going
for a guy who can win 15gms this year?
Congratulations, Omar!
You lost out on another great player we could’ve had. The Braves even got Toby Keith to convince him! Toby Keith! This is pretty much it. There is no way the Mets Are going past this. We’ll have to settle with Ollie for four years. Let the inconsistency begin!!!
Lowe Great Player?
Hardly. Omar lost out on a 10milloin dollar 35 year old pitcher who is getting paid like an Ace.
If anything this is Good Job Omar. Way to Not over-pay a 35 year old sinker baller who is destined to not live out that contract.
15 million a year.
Go look up the pitchers salaries from last year. Do you realize what pitchers resigned with their teams, or even pitchers that signed contracts on the open market, that will be making less then 15 million a year.
Do you realize there will only be 5 pitchers in all of baseball making more. CC, Johan, Big Z, Zito, Jason Schmidt.
He hasn’t had the career of Zito to warrant that. So he will be another horrendous Jason Schmidt contract. Yeah and guess how old Schmidt was when he signed in LA….. you got it 35.
Not worth 15 million dollars. SORRY HE ISN”T.
Sorry i forgot there are 6 now that the yankees were ridiculous and gave 16 million for 20 starts a year to Burnett.
who is the “greay” player you refer to?
If he goes to Atlanta, pretty sure it was the $$ and years and not Toby Keith.
Honestly, why do you and so many others live to try to bash Omar?
Before Omar got here, excitement on the last day of the season was Todd Zeile catching for the first time since the 90s.
Who’s running the show? My understanding was that Omar had COMPLETE authority over the makeup of the roster? Is that not the case?
Even if the Mets wanted Lowe, it just appears that they don’t value either him or Perez very highly. I’m sorry but if you wanted to offer the guy a 3 year deal, then it should have been at least 14 per and probably closer to 16. All that initial offer did make Boras go out and work harder to get his client a deal.
If the end result is that the Braves have to pay Lowe 15 per for four years, there’s a bit of a silver lining there but I would have liked our offer to be a little more serious.
ARE YOU SERIOUS. 16 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR FOR DEREK LOWE.
They guy never won a cy young. He hasn’t even been an all-star in 6 years. He finished in the Cy Young voting ONCE. all that was one flukey 2002 season.
16 million dollar. I would be flipping out if the Mets even sniffed an offer that high for this BUM.
HE’S NOT THAT GOOD! YES HE IS THE BEST LEFT ON THE MARKET, BUT HE’S NOT THAT GOOD.
And he failed to pitch into the 6th inning 11 times last season.
I’ts amazing how some are overvaluing him. Boras mixed some pretty powerful koolaid this winter.
Ok, you’re selling your car (it has 75,000) miles on it. Some guy offers you $10k for it. You inclined to take it. However, another dude just called and he offers $15k. You call the first guy back, and he doesn’t feel the car is worth that much. You call the second guy up and take his money.
That’s all that happened. Omar isn’t a bad GM because of this.
Yes, because the car is really only worth $9,000.
casey, logic on this comments section doesn’t work with many. They feel that if Omar doesn’t sign each and every amazing free agent, he should be fired. They also blame it on the “coupons”, and wonder if the Wilpons are broke, and they say the Mets should spend like a big market team, even though..they already do..
good luck with the logic argument here, I gave up a long time ago :)
The Braves went as high as a team should go, and they’re getting Lowe. The worry I have is that aside from the pen we haven’t addressed anything this offseason. We need improvements, we looked really bad for a good portion of the season last year…and not just the pen.
I’m not devastated that we’re not getting Lowe, Ollie is a fine #4 and we’ll have basically the same staff from last year. I do think that without anymore upgrades we are at best a second place team though. Not bad, that could get us competing for a wild card.
Can somebody name me a sinker ball pitcher who was effective in the years 35 and beyond?
I can’t think of one single one. I’m not saying this to beat down Lowe, i just can’t.
Every successful older pitcher i can think of is a fastball, change-up, slider, curve ball, change speed and locate pitches guy. I can’t think of one Sinkerballer. I know one who tried and kept getting big contracts in Kevin Brown who was never good past 34, 35. But i can’t think of one successful one.
Who cares how good Lowe will be, it’s a moot point. The point is that Ollie is not that great. We desperately need him, but he’s a 4, a 3 at best.
Well it isn’t a moot point, if the votes are still nearly 50-50 on weather to offer a 4 year deal to either lowe or Ollie.
Yes neither you nor I am willing to give Lowe that. But half the fans on here are.
So back to my original Point. Can someone name me a sinker ball pitcher who was successful in his late 30’s (35+)?
I really can’t think of one single one. Which should show you why 15 mil a year for Lowe is ridiculous.
Hershiser, 56 wins for Cleveland ages 35-39…
It is a moot point, because there’s no way Omar is giving him that much.
Lowe’s as impressive as the Citifield patch.
did we get tim redding or kevin youklis? i can’t tell.
could not disagree with matt more about lowe. i’d much rather have perez. and if that’s what omar wants, i agree with him. not stupid jeff wilpon.
I think the biggest problem is why not both? I don’t want to hear about payroll limits or anything like that. If we only sign OP (if we even do sign him) we have to pray that Maine is healty or we’ll be looking at the Limas and Lawrence types yet again because we’ll only have 4 starters (i’m not counting Niese because he is unproven). Why can’t we go for it and get both Lowe AND OP?
Wish it was Youkilis.
How about Sheets and Perez? If you can get Ollie at 4 yr per 10 mil per, why not sign Sheets to a 2 year incentive loaded contract? That way if (when) he gets hurt you still have a viable rotation plus if he survives a season, his stuff is donwright nasty and he could be a big plus in your staff. Don’t know if that would fly with Sheets but something to look at at the very least…
So you let your #1 pitching target go to your #1 rival, and you’re also in search of a good OFer, and let Ibanez, who came cheap, go to your other #1 rival. Now you are going to overpay for Perez, a headcase who no other team in MLB even wants.
The only reason the Braves are even involved in Lowe is because of the Mets’ initial pathetic, lowball offer- that is what drew the Braves and other teams in.
Just please sell the team, we’ve all had enough.
Now you are going to bring back the exact same batting lineup and exact same lineup from a poisoned team.
I’m done.
I agree with everything except selling the team and I’m not done. We are at best a second place team next year. We’re just not that good. We have to face that.
And we won’t be that good unless the owners give us the best chance to win. Tim Reddings of the world won’t do it, sorry.
wait, how many “#1 rivals” do we have?
I still think that if we let Ollie go, we’re going to regret it. He’s entering the prime of his career, and most guys who show flashes like Ollie has, at some point do figure it out and mostly put it together. Not saying he’s going to win a cy young, but I think he’ll be a #3, at least. Lowe on the other hand is only getting older, further from his prime years, and we’d be signing him for 4 years? It’s insanity if you ask me. Sure, maybe next year, Lowe might have a better season than Ollie, but what about year 2, 3, and 4? Are we being that short sighted around here?
If you sign a guy long term based on “flashes”, you’re almost certainly going to regret it. He’d have to do it consistently for at least 2 years.
Lowe agreed to the Braves offer. MLBTradeRumors.com
The D. Lowe just signed with the braves
If that’s true, I really don’t get it. Why would any player want to sign with a team that has NO shot at the postseason? Atlanta is going nowhere this year. At least the Mets have a strong chance. When you’re making as many millions as a major leaguer does, can a few more dollars really be worth playing seasons that have no point whatsoever?
$$$$
The price for Ollie just went up!
And now you have no choice Omar.
Must sign him, then address the OF AND
the 2B situation.
Indeed 11Mil ain’t chump change.
No way I give Oliver Perez a 4 year deal . Way too risky to give either Lowe or Perez 4 years. If Ollie has a meltdown next year then we’re stuck with him for 4 years. The Braves are offering way too much. As I said yesterday, I am seriously done with that trash Boars. Why give him anything at this point. Tell him to take OP and walk. Sign Sheets and 1 more starter from the list of Garland, Wolf, Odalis Perez etc. AND, please, please go for Manny or at least another OF’er with pop.
Boras that is!
Pretty much no choice now. This is the flip-
side of playing the waiting game. Atleast
the rest of these FAs should fallinto place
pretty quickly now w/Lowe off the board.
lol @ people being so worked up and saying its cause omar went low to start
you go low to start because you know boras will do this anyway
does anyone think if the mets initial offer was lets say 3 years for 45 that boras would have said ok done?
no he would have found another team to push it up
at this point i see it as atlanta trying to get the mets to bid higher for lowe then get the mets out of the running for ollie or someone else they want.
by the way…
In the past 2 years, for all his inconsistencies..
Ollie’s record is 26-20…ERA of 3.56 and 4.22
Derek Lowe is 26-25…ERA of 4.57 and 4.25
sometimes u dont realize what u have until it is gone…