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In the Bergen Record last week, Bob Klapisch wrote:
“In all the years I’ve covered baseball in greater New York, I’ve never seen or heard a fan base this angry: Mets’ fans want
someone’s flesh — Omar Minaya’s, Jeff Wilpon’s, Jerry Manuel’s, whoever — as payback for three-plus years of frustration.”
…i get hundreds of e-mail every day, and hear from fans on Twitter, Facebook, and on the street, all of whom like to stop me and talk about the team… i sense three moods, 1) anger and frustration, 2) defeat and apathy, and 3) cautious hope… the problem for the Mets, as a business, which relies on tickets and advertising and television ratings, is that i believe the apathetic group is growing… i bet this is their biggest fear… i mean, anger and frustration equal passion, and to a certain extent, interest… apathy, however, equals empty seats and a lack of eyeballs and people just not caring…
…personally, i’m not angry, though i am certainly frustrated… i’m kind of hopeful, but that’s my nature… i’m still very interested… so, if i had to paint myself with one label, it would be: disappointed…
…it’s tough to be angry… i mean, i have my issues with him, but, how can i be angry at Omar Minaya for adequately not planning for this many injuries… i can’t be angry at Jose Reyes for tearing a tendon in his leg, you know what i mean… it happens… and so, i can only expect so much from Fernando Tatis and Jeremy Reed, or Nick Evans and a 20–year-old rookie… i see arguments on e-mail and in the comment 
section on this blog and others, where people debate whether reed or tatis should be batting sixth, and i laugh… i mean, seriously, does it really matter…
…that said, i do not feel defeated, because i enjoy rooting for the underdog… so, in some ways, the more depleted the team is, the more compelling i find them… that is until they’re eliminated from contention, in which case, according to the 1990s, i’ll become apathetic…
…for now, though, i’m just disappointed, because the Opening Day roster had so much potential… and so, i’m disappointed i never had the chance to really see that group click on all cylinders…
“You just have to keep playing, man,” Alex Cora said on Sunday, according to the Bergen Record. “I don’t think anybody is going to quit here. You just have to keep playing. We’ve been here together, and we’re going to be in this together for the rest of the season.”
…exactly, this is why i’m still hopeful this current group can fight on, stick around and get help down the line, be it from the disabled list or in trade, and from other teams in their division who have plenty of issues of their own… however, the clock is ticking, and i’m growing more and more skeptical by the day…
Wow not exactly breaking news lol… Have you read the comments on this site.
I’m definitely a pissed off fan to say the least!
An underdog with a $143 mil payroll is not exactly and underdog in the exact sense of the word. I am very disgusted with this team and I do blame Omar for his failed vision.
He never sees ahead and only reacts after the damage is done. If we got the bat and the pitcher that we needed this past off season we may actually be in1st place inspite of all the injuries.
Not gettting Ibanez or Dunn and signing Oliver Perez ruined us way before we started having players injured.
I agree that Omar reacts more to last season’s problems rather than planning for the future. However, what keeps me from calling for his head outright is the fear that Tony Bernazard would then become GM.
Which brings us to the crux of the biscuit – the Wilpons. They are ultimately responsible for the way this team has evolved over the past 6 years. From the training staff, to the conflicting messages, to the ineffective managers, to the meddling by guys like Tony B, to Jeff Wilpon being the heir apparent, to turning the Mets into the Brooklyn Dodgers in order to fulfill Fred’s childhood fantasy. It ultimately all goes back to the Wilpons.
It really goes back to the players and right now the group groomed to be the supporting cast has been thrust into the starring roles.
That is not going to work out well, ever, no matter the uniform, owner, gm or manager.
But half of it is on the DL.
Why not blame the Wilpons???? I think we have every right to. I mean since they bought out Nelson Doubleday in 2002 what has this franchise won?????
NOTHINGGGGGGGGGGGGG…
Wait, I thought you blamed Omar.
Yea and who hired Omar and gave him an extension that starts next season????
Since 2002 here is what has happened:
-02-04: Averaged 71 wins and came in 5th, 5th and 4th in the NL East.
-05-08: Averaged 89 wins and came in 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd in NL East.
I know stats aren’t fun when bashing people but there they are.
Oh, and the Wilpon’s have spent money. Before 2002 the highest payroll in Mets history was 93.6MM. Per USA Today, 2002-2009 the payroll has been:
2002 – 94.6
2003 – 117.2
2004 – 96.6
2005 – 101.3
2006 – 101.1
2007 – 115.2
2008 – 137.8
2009 – 149.4
Whether they spent it wisely or not, or whether they have the right decision makers in place can be questioned but I laugh every time I see someone criticize the Wilpon’s based on wins or salaries. They have more than opened up their wallets for this organization and built a first class stadium where the major complaint is it isn’t in Mets colors.
I understand your point and I haven’t questioned the ability to spend money but as owners they have not been able to put out a consistent winning product and have made DUMB hiring decisions. I don’t think that could be disputed.
And this year the payrol is actually less than last season because the 149 takes into account contracts like 8 million to Freddie Garcia that were incentive laden and arent going to be paid out. Spending less than last season is def unacceptable considering the price of admission etc.
Oh and since 2002 they’ve made the playoffs ONCE so why cant we question wins and playoff births??? And if you want to go even further back from when they actually bought into the team it has been worse! Show me those numbers CB
Your note on the $149 is likely correct. I did think this year’s payroll was either flat or a couple of million down from last year.
And questioning wins and playoff births is more than acceptable. Again, over the past four years they increased the Mets wins by 18 wins a season on average versus the previous few. That is largely due to spending money to bring in top free agent talent (Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Santana, etc.). They do only have 1 playoff appearance in that time; falling ever so short the last two years because of collapses. Unfortunately, the money they spend doesn’t negatively affect the competition directly. In fact, if I recall last year the Mets won the season series from the Phils and yet still fell to them.
As for the hiring decisions, I think Minaya was a good signing at first but much like Dolan giving Isiah a mandate to make the playoffs and then rewarding him halfway through the season with an extension only to see the Knicks fall flat on their face, I think Omar’s extension was premature. Jerry Manuel on the other hand took over a team that had looked terrible and almost managed them into the playoffs last year. Say what you will about winning in spite of him, they didn’t win in spite of Willie so Jerry was doing something right. I had no problem with Jerry’s hire based on who else was available and his performance with a roster that would likely remain unchanged year over year. It is clear now that without his horses in the lineup, Jerry is not a good young player’s manager (constantly running on DP machine Tatis) but like it or not, that is not what we signed Jerry up for.
All in all, the anger of Mets fans is largely exaggerated based on a small group. Most fans while they hold opinions on the farm system, whether we should have signed Manny/Dunn, etc. understand that when you lose your all-star SS and CF and your probably HOF power threat for an extended period of time, you are going to lose ballgames. If you thought this team on opening day was a 90-95 win team, you would have to expect the current product is an 75-80 win team at best right?
The funny part is imagine the attitude on this site if the Mets sweep the Dodgers. Baseball has a way of generating quick emotions so hopefully Pelfrey can beat Kershaw tonight and we move forward.
Its not a small sampling of angry fans. The fan confidence on this website is 3 out of 10. I dont think all those people who voted 3 or under are happy. Also read the newspapers, put on WFAN, and watch the shows on SNY where the talk show guys who are employed by the Wilpons are even angry, and you will see the angry fans are NOT a small sampling.
And I am right about the payroll it is less than last season and the reason why I’m frustrated about that is not only cause of the price of admission but also cause we could of had a couple of solid players for cheap during the off season and the Wilpons cheaped out.
And like many other Met fans I didn’t think the Mets had the ability to win 92-95 games before the season because they didnt address a big need – A CORNER OUTFIELDER! We desperately needed one and this season proves that we were correct.
Lastly, I have no problem with Jerry Manual but despite what happens I still want Bobby Valentine leading this team next season! Bring back Bobby V!
what was their record prior to 02?
How many times did they win it all?
You’ve definitely made good points. I don’t know if there’s one word that can describe our emotions. I think what has really given flame to the fire is seeing how much success the Phillies have had. It hurts because I know that our rosters over the past few years have been comparable to there’s.
What disappoints me is the fact that things come off as shady in this organization. Medical reports aren’t clear. Injured players are played until they can’t. Our manager is being outmanaged. You can only take so much.
So am I apathetic? I don’t know. I’m definitely frustrated. It’s almost like a hopeless or disillusioned feeling. In a way I think ending the year only like .500 or worse is a better consolation to a third collapse. It doesn’t feel like our energetic emotional fan base is on the same page with this team. I don’t trust this bunch. I think they’re a bunch of cowards that’ll crunch under pressure.
It’s hard to praise or blame Omar on one particular thing. He’s gotten us Johan, Beltran, K-Rod and so many great players. He’s made some mistakes too. The fact he went with that bullpen all of last season and was so overly timid is on him though. Signing Oliver Perez to that deal, knowing Randy Wolf was available at a cheap rate, after being reminded of his unnecessary Luis Castillo deal was unacceptable. I don’t know if he deserved to be fired, but I don’t understand how he earned a 3 year extension.
We could just be seeing injuries. Or the decline of an era. If the next era starts rather quickly, I would be alright. This bunch has made us all sick to our stomachs. Serious inventory changes need to occur next season. Get back Bobby V and get that late-90’s/2000 type play back in us. That was a team we were able to relate to. Even after a ‘’semi-collapse” in ‘98, we were confident.
Well here is what the Wilpons care about…
Me and some friends split 2 15-game packs, for 30 total games. By the all-star break, we will be nearly 2/3 of the way through our games, while only halfway through the season. I thought this odd, until I realized how the positions the Mets to start offering up late-season “pennant packs” – assuming they can stay afloat – that probably have more opportunities for postseason tickets than the season-long commitments we’ve already made.
I don’t suggest the Wilpon’s ‘don’t care’ about winning, but first a foremost they are running a business, and all they care about is making a money. The most emotional investment we’ve ever seen from Fred is over his Ebbetts shrine, and the only thing Jeff has going for him is genes.
My point is, the Wilpons are DESPERATE to stand for stability. They are loathe to make changes. Loathe to fire anyone. Loathe to pay people who aren’t working for them. loathe to make any changes at all. They seem to think that stability is good business, and fans will respect staying the course more than aggressively trying to reach a goal. And they are proving wrong – both in gaging fans perceptions and in understanding what it takes to build a winning baseball team.
Couldnt have said it better myself Dave.
Well said. running a good business is one thing (and the wilpons may be very good at that) but building a winning baseball team is totally different. Unfortunately the Wilpons still have not figured out what the yankees and red sox have which is winning baseball teams ARE good businesses.
Just because one era has to end doesn’t mean it has to intrude another. I really do think it’d be a good idea to shop around Reyes. With these new leg problems and his peaking, it might not be worth signing him to a long extension. Why not Matt Holliday for the same money and try to get great prospects for him? I know why people get upset when people say ”break up the core” simply for that. I think you have to take the pieces that work and that pieces that don’t. Trade for better ”core” players and put a bunch of much competent players around them.
The good question though would be why would someone be so opposed to shuffling things around (ex. trading Reyes or Beltran), if it were able to make us better? Why should we have this committment or respect for these players? What have they done for us? If this team is going to continue being a high-80 or low-90 win type team, Omar’s going to need to improvise well.
I’m probably closest to #2. I’m angry at Jerry Manuel, whom I think has taken the absolutely wrong tact with an injury-plagued team that still has enough talent on it to be 3 games over .500 or more. But after two years of heartbreak, I’m okay with them just being bad.
I’ll watch and root and hope because I’m a die-hard, but my friend just asked me “you think they’re going to turn it around?” and I flatly responded “no.” I think there are a number of people like me, but will go a step further and simply stop watching until there’s something interesting to watch.
Matt:
If you were a season ticket holder you might feel differently.
Me, not knowing if or when core players will return, hoping that Omar does not make stupid moves that will further hurt this teams chances and watching Jerry, notwithstanding the constrained roster he is dealing with, tolerate sloppy play in the field and lack of game plan at the plate …. is all very frustrating to say the least.
As I said before, mostly likely we are looking at a too late to matter situation and 2010 is the next relavent game to be played other than as spoiler.
If you were a season ticket holder you would be frustrated even more. You were promised a fancy new stadium and a team with new attitude. You paid a lot more for that and you paid upfront for 81 games. Did you get what you paid for? I have already made it clear my disappointments with the stadium and how seasonticket holders were treated as cattle and forced to swallow allocated seats while the Mets turned their ears away from disgruntled tickets holders because they were still trying to sell more overpriced tickets.
Rest assured. Although there are 10,000 fewer seats in Citifield, the team has made a lot more money. Ticket prices were vastly increased. The payroll stayed the same (though granted it remanis one of the highest in the league).
As others have stated, its not that the Wilpons do not spend. Its that either Jeff (or if we are to believe the Mets, Omar and Tony B) dont know how to spend wisely.
And who know if things would be different if Mets were not so heavily invested in Madoff.
Do I care about the team, yes ( I have since 1973). Have I given up on 2009 … probably. Will I go to games? Well, I have season tickets (four seats). I dont assume I will be able to sell them (even if the Mets were playing well, the high prices scare buyers away, especially when they know they can buy the cheapest tickets online and then move down to the more expensive seats). I just hope if I go I can convince (without having to bribe) friends to come.
Will I renew my tickets? To be honest, I really did not care for how the Mets treated me as a returning ticket holder. Should I really bank roll four seats for 81 games again, when the Mets ignore many of my concerns and fail to field a respectible team?
I will wait to see, as Matt indicated, whether a head or two rolls. If that occurs and I feel there is more hope worthy of me plopping down a small fortune then i will be back. Otherwise, I will wait until next year and watch the mets discount their own tickets and then pick and choose a few games to visit.
Hey no wonder we agree on most subjects. Like you I am a season ticket holder and have also decided not to renew my season tickets for next season. I can’t say I disagree with one thing you said and I’ve been posting the same stuff the last month or so.
Great post Matt. I think this really sums up the fanbase perfectly. I don’t understand the people who are angry either. This is a bizzare and pratcially lost season.
If people want to continue be optomistic that’s great too. There is nothing wrong with that.
But it;s unfair to ask people to keep plucking down and average of $60 a tix for this team which nobody signed up for and certainly would have not bought season tickets for. So there is nothing wrong with the defeated and apathetic attitude as well.
This anger and these comments that support the notion that this team has to win at all costs this season is very short-sighted.
If there is a smart opporuntity to take advantage of that would make this team better without compromising the future then make it (ie adding money like rios or wells), but keeping the prospects and even becoming sellers at the deadline to get more younger talent is an option that should be at least considered
I hope everyone calling for trading Reyes and/or Beltran realizes they can’t now, and when and if they come back their value will be as low as it ever has been.
Funny thing about fans – no one ever wants to trade a guy when his value is highest, but that’s when you should if you’re going to.
I think most of us realize Reyes and Beltran and Wright can’t be traded until the season is over. Assumign Reyes and Beltran are both able to comeback sometime this year, I suspect they will still be playing well enough to be of high value to other teams.
I brilliant plan. Seeing as how well the Mets are currently performing sans Beltran and Reyes…lets trade them.
I think I would be far less angry if they didnt lose games they should have won, just like any other time in the last 3 years.
Yes this team is depleted, but shoddy play in the field, poor baserunning and dumb managerial decisions in my opinion are the reasons this team is in 3rd place. Its not like they are playing over there heads to justify calling them an underdog, they lose all the time, just more often than not its excruciating.
Well said. The injuries are what they are. But the sloppy play and poor managing is inexcusable.
so basically Met fans became Yankee fans with about 1/13th the hardware and 0 World Series appearances in almost 10 years? that is really something.
i’d almost consider dropping the Mets altogether to escape from being associated with the pathetic, reactionary fanbase, rather than an inept team. too bad i love the Mets. to anyone who would claim their so angry with the Mets, i would suggest you get a new perspective on life.
Wow. I agree with you. LOL
The issue at stake is how to keep fans engaged when unplanned bad things have happened. Not much different than when a company has to deal with a bad economy or a natural disaster or terrorism.
What do you do? Over communicate. And that is not what the Mets do.
Tell us daily about the progress (or lack thereof) of the injured players.
Tell us daily about management’s efforts to fortify the squad.
Tell us daily about things to be hopeful about in the minors.
Tell us daily about your excitement with the amateur draft.
Tell us daily about why your hopeful.
However, I just see business as usual. The emails look the same, the web site sounds the same.
Take a cue from the SNY guys. I have to give them credit because, unless the crew at YES, despite being employed by a team-owned network, they speak what’s on their mind and I think that is healthy for the fans. I just wish the senior managers would take a cue from their own employees.
It is very easy to be angry with Omar and the Wilpons. Going into this season I was ranting and raving that the Mets lineup was light. I ranted and raved that the Mets needed a big bat in LF or RF (preferably Manny). Omar tried to sell us on the Murphy/Tatis platoon, and that Delgado would stay healthy, and that Wright/Reyes/Beltran would be able to play over 160 games again, and Castillo would return to the player he was, and that Ryan Church would be the player he was in the first half. Well guess what Omar NONE of those happened.
I really that either Omar is really lost or the Wilpons are broke and are using Omar as the scapegoat.
Thats so crazy. Why shouldnt we expect our core to play 160 games?? So are you saying we should spend 10 million on each player on the field to ensure when 5 KEY PLAYERS go down we have a backup plan?
Gimme a break man.
Not at all but even with the lineup of Reyes, Castillo, Beltran, Delgado, Wright, Church, Murphy, Schneider it is not enough (which I said countless times on this site from Jan-March).
I think what McNulty was saying is that Omar built the team on a bunch of “ifs.” If Delgado stays healthy, if Castillo bounces back, if Tatis/Church/Murphy all magically amount to something, if Maine/Perez/Pelfrey stay healthy/sane/competent, if we get offensive production from our catchers, etc. There was no contingency plan.
A contingency plan is having a MLB-average (or better) 1B/OF to rotate into the lineup in case Delgado gets hurt (check) or the three corner OFs flop (check), or to have a solid bat off the bench. Angel Pagan is not a contingency plan.
A contingency plan is passing on Oliver Perez and instead signing three or four low-cost, second-tier starters (Randy Wolf-class) and let them battle for rotation spots. If Maine comes back healthy, then you trade one of them for other needs. If not, you have something better than Brandon Knight to bring up from Buffalo. I mean, is it really far-fetched to think that Ollie’s season was partially foreseeable?
And we all know that Omar can’t improvise OR multi task for that matter. He has to spend 2 weeks sigining a backup IF’er like Cora when there was other business to be tended to.
I am a huge BOBBY V. fan and he’s about the only thing that would get me excited for next season.
You know what?
If the Mets dumped Jerry and rehired Bobby V THAT would be the type of move to bring me back.
Bobby V is a proven winner.
How were the Mets between 1998-1999 that much different than the Mets of 2007-2008? They collapsed in 1998 and blew the WC and almost did the same in 1999 if it wasn’t for an iffy strike call against the Pirates and the Reds losing 2 of 3 in Milwaukee the last weekend of the season.
This is just my opinion, but I think people who are going bezerk about the Wilpons and Omar are missing the point. My list of culprits for 2007-2009 is as follows:
2007: In this order – Jose Reyes (for tanking the last month of the season), Willie Randolph (for letting an air of complacency and apathy permeate the clubhouse, which lingers to this day), and Tom Glavine (for his completely inexcusable performance in the last game of the year).
2008: The bullpen.
2009: Injuries.
Given all of the above, I really could care less about the Jackie Robinson Rotunda which everyone else seems to be obsessed with.
I think people are bezerk over the fact that aside from Randolph, absolutely no one has been held accountable for their failures, real or imagined. And to me it stems from the Wilpons and their obsession with appearing stable. Even the Randolph firing, which was so painfully obvious a move, was strung out over 2-3 weeks that probably could have saved the season.
The biggest reaction you ever saw from them was in 2004 – not because the team was not winning, but because there was a perception after the Kazmir fiasco that there was no stability at the top, no clear lines of responsibility. Bringing Omar in was their attempt to fix that – building a champion was secondary.
Since then…I honestly believe that in candid moments the Wilpons would probably admit they view the last 4 years as a success – the team is winning about 88 games a year on average, staying in the race til the end, selling tickets, and opened a new stadium. They’d be happier building the Atlanta Braves model – good every year but almost never breaking through – then going for a 2005 White Sox kind of year, embracing the uncomfortable and going for it all, to hell with perception.
Dave, if that’s true, then why do they have the highest payroll in the NL? If what you’re saying is accurate, you’d think they’d be content to maybe be 3rd of 4th in payroll, just enough to stay somewhat competitive. The fact that they outspend everyone else in the NL kind of throws off your business model.
ToastyJoe so far you have disagreed with every person on this site. It has led me to come to the conclusion that your real name is Fred Wilpon. It’s ok Fred you can admit it.
It’s actually led me to the conclusion that I have a brain and can think and form opinions for myself. If that offends you, you have my deepest heartfelt apologies.
well your opinions and conclusions differ from every other person on this site and make little sense. Yes it is Reyes fault we lost in 2007 – That is just ret@rded
Both his average and his OBP dropped a whopping 16 points in the month of September, he had only 5 stolen bases the whole month of September, and ZERO stolen bases in the last two weeks of September. But you’re right, he had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the team fell apart in – what month was that again? Oh right….September.
What about the rest of his in season performance????? The games his single handedly won for us with his bat and speed???
You can’t blame Jose Reyes cause his worst month of the year was September ….You gotta be kidding me!
Jose Reyes tanked it?? I guess I missed that.
The culprits are 2007- Omar Minaya for not addressing the bullpen and relying on the old and injury prone Moises Alou.
2008- Omar Minaya for not brining in a bullpen arm (not named Luis Alaya) when it was apparent that the bullpen was a MAJOR weakness. He also signed Luis Castillo.
2009- Omar Minaya for not brining in another bat and signing Oliver Perez.
Sigh. Here we go.
2007: They lost in 2007 because of the bullpen? That’s a new one to me.
2008: OK, here we go again. Tell me “bullpen arm” you would’ve brought in at the trade deadline. Who was out there that he failed to get? And which prospects would you have given up to get him?
2009: If you think the Mets are in this mess because of anything but injuries to the #1, #3, #4 hitters, the #2 and #3 pitchers and the set-up man, you’re lost.
As to 2009 I totally agree. That’s why I mostly feel frustrated with a tinge of anger that usually manifests itself during or just after losses. The starting rotation and the bullpen could have played better at different point of the season so far but ultimately that applies to every single team, even the top teams. Injuries, injuries, injuries!!
Ok I know the Mets have had some pretty tough luck with injuries. With that said, if the Mets had Manny (and he didn’t get the 50 game suspension) wouldn’t the Mets be in a much better place right now. I think a lineup of Cora, Castillo, Manny, Wright, Church, Evans, Murphy, and Santos could compete.
The bullpen killed the Mets in 07 along with the bats going cold. It didn’t help either that Brian Lawrence and Philip Humber were getting September starts. Brad Lidge and Dan Wheeler were available at the 07 deadline. Chad Bradford was available in 08 along with Jon Rauch.
No, the bullpen pitched WELL in 2007. I really and honestly haven’t the faintest idea what you’re talking about.
The September collapse game logs show the bullpen took the loss in 6 of the 17, and the first 4 of the skid.
9/14 Heilman loss
9/15 Sosa loss
9/16 Mota loss
9/17 Sele loss (down to a 2.5 game lead)
9/20 Sosa loss
9/26 Smith loss
Not the sole reason, but they started the ball rolling, then the starters took turns getting shelled by the Nationals.
from what I recall, the bullpen was just wore-down at the end of the season. Willie was never good at his juggling of the pen, and, although his options were limited, he had to keep using them.
The fact he had to keep using them though, thats the fault of the starting pitching. And I guess Omar though if I can improve the pitching, then the bullpen wont be used as much throughout and then ideally can be fresher in sept. yeeea…that didnt work out soo well.
The bullpen collapsed in 2006 because the starters couldn’t get through 5 innings night after night even if given a substantial lead.
Its good to see ToastyJoe taking a beating by my fellow “realistic” Met fans. haha
2007-Awful starting pitching and a sense of entitlement and complacency, they thought everyone would rollover for them, that backfired.
2008-An atrocious bullpen that blew 7 games in the last 50, including 3 to the Braves in the last two weeks, in which they were given a 2 run lead sometime from the 7th inning on.
2009-Long term Injuries to key personnel. 6 of the 10 most important Met players are currently on the DL.
Bingo, bingo, and bingo.
But Toasty 2008:The bullpen has to be on Omar. All he did at the deadline was get us Luis freakin Ayala. If he had come up with a better reliever we make the playoffs and the fans aren’t so crazed right now after 3 straight years of failure.
Do we remember what bullpen guy was out there that he didn’t get. I don’t remember someone like K-Rod being available then
Agree with Jay. Who was out there? You think if someone was out there, Omar wouldn’t have gotten him? And if you think he should’ve given up a top prospect for a rented middle reliever, you’re insane. Perhaps he could’ve done something during the offseason after 2007, but the pen was good in 2007. All the guys who stunk in 2008 (Heilman, Smith, Feliciano) had reasonably good years in 2007.
but this is always the problem with omar…he does not seem to understand that past results are not indicative of future performance.
he should have realized that the 2006 rotation pitched over its head, and not expected the same thing in 2007. but he stood pat and the rotation came crashing back down to earth. same for the pen in 2008 and (especially!) the offense in 2009.
sure he couldn’t predict that reyes and beltran would go down, but it was obvious that expecting 2008 results out of delgado, tatis and murphy was crazy. then factor in that castillo and schneider both kind of suck and you already have a very average offense – that is two injuries away from being completely hopeless.
Right on with that last paragraph.
The thing with Omar is he makes a big splash and uses it to sugarcoat other deficiencies.
He got Johan before 08, but did nothing to help strengthen the bullpen or offense. Yes the bullpen was ok in 2007, but they were overrused and they wore down in 2007. And the offense got cold late, they could have used something to re-enforce season-long production.
2008, the bullpen was horrible and overrused. Once wagner went down, all hell broke loose, and our lack of quality depth forced us to use rookie SP as relievrs and journemen off waivers as closers. And our offense struggled at times in the big spot in Sept (mainly b/c our bullpen kept putting them in big spots).
So he fixed the pen, but did not address the offense for the second year. Yes we had quality bats in the lineup, but not so much in LF. and we did nothing to add depth at 1B or improve LF. instead kept it as is. (he tried to move Castillo, and Schneider is fine as a #7 or 8 hitter)
Um…I like these mets fans who always make these statements but can’t back it up with facts. There was nothing available that would not have caused us to overpay to an extreme.
Random side note…but it sounds like Dunn or Holliday wont be getting traded…ive read a few places that the nats dont want to trade dunn and that they only will if they get alot in return…prob like fmart and parnell….so omar might be right on when he says “theres no deals out there”…not that he doesnt wanna give up prospects…but that everyone is either off limits or have to be blown away
Matt, if you find this Mets team compelling, God bless you. It’s essentially David Wright and 7 minor leaguers.
Since 2006, the Mets have been 4 stars and a bunch of bench players. With three of those stars hurt, they’re done. Maybe the division will be mediocre enough to stay in the hunt, but even that’s doubtful.
The fact is, this team grossly underachieved in 2007 and 2008. And Minaya’s mindset of thinking the team is only one move away from a World Series is absurd. After 07, it was the rotation, so he did nothing once Johan fell in his lap. After 08, it was the bullpen, so he got K-Rod and didn’t anticipate any offensive issues.
Minaya operates under the best-case scenario all the time. Why not beef up the offense in case the starters or bullpen falter? Why not bring in Dunn to ease the burden on an aging Delgado?
I could not agree more. Omar tried to sell us on the Murphy/Tatis platoon while Manny was begging Omar to give him a call.
Agreed. I also rant about the model of “6 stars and 19 pieces of roster filler.” Going to war with Castillo, Schneider, Church, and Murphy was incredibly short-sighted.
who are these maniacs with cautious hope?
I am generally satisfied with the job that the Wilpons, as owners, have done in opening up the purse for Omar. Some Mets fans still find a way to complain about this, but I think they’re being ridiculous.
I am also (for the most part) satisfied with the job Omar Minaya has done as GM. In terms of players, he has made far more good moves than bad ones. And he has taken a farm system that was almost completely devoid of talent and helped turn it back toward respectability (given another 2 years or so, without any major withdrawals, I firmly believe the Mets could have a Top 10 system).
I am disappointed in Jerry Manuel as a manager. I think he is good in the clubhouse and is well-suited for a bench coach position. But I think he is a lousy in-game strategist and an even worse pre-game strategist. As for the rest of the coaching staff, I think HoJo was a sentimental hire and I don’t think he’s adding anything to the ballclub (he may in fact be detracting). I don’t have a quarrel with Dan Warthen (although I don’t know much about him). And I think Razor Shines is a gimmick and nothing more. A fan picked at random every night to be third base coach would very likely do less damage.
And as for the players, it’s tough to really get on them. Many of them are guys who should at best be backups. Several are youngsters who are being flagrantly misused. And most of the rest of them are either injured or playing close to expectations.
I guess I’m most disappointed in the fanbase. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but so many of them are ill-informed and impatient and reactionary, all with an air of entitlement in everything they say. But the constant clamoring for Omar to add a bat (be it someone mediocre like Adam LaRoche, or someone completely ridiculous like Adrian Gonzalez) and a starter (be it someone way overpriced like Cliff Lee or someone we really can’t afford like Roy Halladay), all while complaining that our farm system is empty, and not seeing how the two go hand in hand… yeah, I think that’s what frustrates me the most.
Sorry for the long post, and sorry if I rambled.
Just reading this thread has made be frustrated lol.
Your post at least lacks the “i’m standing on the edge, ready to shoot Omar, then jump off” feel.
Perfect, quick question for you.
I know you are a fan, but you are also a season ticket holder?
Please read my post above and then let me know if you are disappointed with my feelings.
If you are a season ticket holder, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how you were treated as a returning fan and how the Mets addresses the concerns.
I read your post, and as one that has never owned season tickets, I can’t really relate, but I certainly understand your position. But in terms of this season, I dont know what to say other than, that sucks. I mean, its not like we have everyone playing and are tanking. We are missing too many players and now have too many players playing where and when they probably shouldnt be playing. But with that, there are not many options elsewhere.
In regards to improving for this season, then you have a right to be frustrated by the lack of foresight Omar used to avoid any potential catastrophic roster meltdown. Theres nothing we could have done about Beltran and Reyes. But we depended too much on a 34-year old aging 1B, a rookie who has never played a full season that will be playing a new position (now 2 new positions) and another aging backup to platoon with.
Trust me Kickedinthemetsickles this is just the beginning of the Mets problems with season ticket holders. You and I are already cancelling ours for next season and I’m sure there will be a long line behind us.
There were guys traded in 2008 albeit not closers, but guys that were AT THE TIME, better than Ayala. Eddie Guardado, Marte, Arthur Rhodes etc.
Plus it’s not just the guys that were traded. There were others available too, but Omar wants to hold onto our prospects like they’re gold and most never pan out anyway.
We traded for Ayala and brought up Figgy, Robinson Cancel and Chris Aguila to put us over the top. How’d that work out?
i dont like breaking up the core i think we need to build around it bc the window for the core is still open i believe Beltran is the oldest of our returning core guys next year. the problem with this team isnt the stars of the team its the massive drop off in production from the stars to the complimentary parts. look at teams like the red sox or phillies. their complimentary players (jason werth, mike lowell, shane victorino, jacoby ellsbury) are all still very good baseball players, going into this season who are our complimentary players? dan murphy? luis castillo? ryan church? brian schneider? I hope this analogy makes sense but we need a new GM who understands we got the big V12 engine in reyes, wright, beltran, johan, krod…now we need to take out of the ‘82 Civic Omar put it in and put it in a Ferrari.
All I gotta say is remember the Scott Kazmir deal.
The situation that we are in right now is very similar to the situation we were in back 2004.
The false reality of thinking you have a chance when you really don’t can get you into major trouble and set you back. And trading for guys like Adam Dunn or Aubrey Huff is like trading for a guy like Zambrano. (Remember Victor Zambrano did have talent, someone of a track record and talent at the time)
If I am trading a highly touted prospect I want the sure proven guy who can help. Not an above average player who may or may not be a savior
Great post. Great reference. Perfect comparison.
it is a similar situation somewhat. But, in 04, we had a crappy team. in 09, we have a good team…on the DL, and a crappy team playing. So there is a little more hope here.
That said, The Zambrano deal is the kind of guy we need here now, the guy that has talent, but hasnt been able to put it all together but is kinda young (all together = cheap). The problem was and currently is, that that is not worth a top prospect or Kazmir.
But I agree, that we have to be careful with our top prospects and I assume you wouldnt be opposed to getting a Zambrano-type, for a lower level player, which is what it should have been then.
“oh, hey, Victor, you got a nice 2-seamer, oh but elbow trouble? nah dont worry about that..here, take my best prospect…”
Bingo!! Panic moves kill you. The worse that might’ve happened to the Mets in the last 3 years might’ve been Duaner Sanchez car accident in 2006. The ripples from that accident, in terms of how it changed Sanchez’s career and the moves that were made as a result of that accident, are still being felt today.
Oliver Perez pitched brilliantly in 2006 and in the playoffs. Also we got Roberto Hernendez in that same Perez deal he pitched well down the stretch. How did the Sanchez injury hurt us exactly???? That was actually one of the decent moves Omar ended up making …
Resigning Perez was a stupid move.
I find that funny that Perez helped us in 06 yet why did we re-sign him and I cant disagree with either of those points…
I know that has been Perez’s problem. Inconsistency. He shows flashes of brilliance and than pitches like he’s never pitched before. Unfortunately this season he’s pitched like he’s never pitched before lol
not at all the same. that would be the equivalent of trading brad holt for scott hairston. That clearly is not going to happen. There was more to the kazmir trade than we are privy to. Omar may be stupid but hes not that dumb. trading mediocre prospects for adam dunn while frustrating since we couldve just signed him will not be like the kazmir deal. Remember Kazmir was a top 10 pick in the previous years draft who do we have in our system that is even close to that?