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	<title>Comments on: Reaction: The Church-for-Francouer Deal</title>
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		<title>By: Constnza81</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581188</link>
		<dc:creator>Constnza81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581188</guid>
		<description>That is totally unfair. I was rocking the &quot;In Omar We Trust&quot; slogan a few years ago but the state of this franchise has gotten progressively worse since our peak in 2006. The idea that a guy like Jerry - who&#039;s only proven that he&#039;s A Willie Randolph style manager with a better personality - can more or less &quot;run guys out of town&quot; regardless of their quality just speaks volumes about the state of this organization. I&#039;m getting to a point where we need a clean sweep of things. Enough justifying the failures of the last three years. This isn&#039;t a mid-market franchise -- don&#039;t go around and say we&#039;re &quot;championship caliber&quot; and then follow it with &quot;well we were one game short&quot; and &quot;we were injured.&quot; I obsess over guys like Church and Castro because outside of the &quot;core&quot; this team is built around a group of inconsequential players that we have to &quot;hope&quot;  come through. You think Phillies fans wouldn&#039;t be upset if Charlie Manuel ran out of town guys like Werth, Victorino, Madson and Feliz - role players all, but role players who actually contribute in a meaingful way.

Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Okay, so 2009 is a bust because of injuries - but Beltran is getting older and may not be able to play CF anymore for a full season. After dodging the injury-prone label that dogged Reyes a few years ago, he&#039;s back with an injury that just can&#039;t seem to heal itself. Wright is all sorts of messed up. We have glaring holes in the OF, 1B and C. Pelfrey has regressed. Maine has really regressed. Ollie is awful. Santana is getting older. Murphy has been a bust and doesn&#039;t have the confidence of his manager. The manager seems to have ulterior motives besides just managing the roster he&#039;s been given. All of are reinforcements in the minors are years away from being contributors. And I&#039;m just supposed to shrug my shoulders at the fact that this GM, who has had almost every major move and signing he&#039;s made since 2006 backfire (save for Santana and K-Rod), just acquired perhaps one of the worst offensive players in baseball.

I&#039;m glad you&#039;re so open minded. I was open minded three years ago and was proven wrong again, and again, and again. And now I acknowledge it. So don&#039;t start talking about &quot;fans like you&quot; to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is totally unfair. I was rocking the &#8220;In Omar We Trust&#8221; slogan a few years ago but the state of this franchise has gotten progressively worse since our peak in 2006. The idea that a guy like Jerry &#8211; who&#8217;s only proven that he&#8217;s A Willie Randolph style manager with a better personality &#8211; can more or less &#8220;run guys out of town&#8221; regardless of their quality just speaks volumes about the state of this organization. I&#8217;m getting to a point where we need a clean sweep of things. Enough justifying the failures of the last three years. This isn&#8217;t a mid-market franchise &#8212; don&#8217;t go around and say we&#8217;re &#8220;championship caliber&#8221; and then follow it with &#8220;well we were one game short&#8221; and &#8220;we were injured.&#8221; I obsess over guys like Church and Castro because outside of the &#8220;core&#8221; this team is built around a group of inconsequential players that we have to &#8220;hope&#8221;  come through. You think Phillies fans wouldn&#8217;t be upset if Charlie Manuel ran out of town guys like Werth, Victorino, Madson and Feliz &#8211; role players all, but role players who actually contribute in a meaingful way.</p>
<p>Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Okay, so 2009 is a bust because of injuries &#8211; but Beltran is getting older and may not be able to play CF anymore for a full season. After dodging the injury-prone label that dogged Reyes a few years ago, he&#8217;s back with an injury that just can&#8217;t seem to heal itself. Wright is all sorts of messed up. We have glaring holes in the OF, 1B and C. Pelfrey has regressed. Maine has really regressed. Ollie is awful. Santana is getting older. Murphy has been a bust and doesn&#8217;t have the confidence of his manager. The manager seems to have ulterior motives besides just managing the roster he&#8217;s been given. All of are reinforcements in the minors are years away from being contributors. And I&#8217;m just supposed to shrug my shoulders at the fact that this GM, who has had almost every major move and signing he&#8217;s made since 2006 backfire (save for Santana and K-Rod), just acquired perhaps one of the worst offensive players in baseball.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;re so open minded. I was open minded three years ago and was proven wrong again, and again, and again. And now I acknowledge it. So don&#8217;t start talking about &#8220;fans like you&#8221; to me.</p>
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		<title>By: metsfan1</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581173</link>
		<dc:creator>metsfan1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 15:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581173</guid>
		<description>I am sorry but as minor as this trade is in the history of the Mets it really shows why they are a loser organization.  A hard working player that did EVERYTHING the team asked and produced with moderate results is traded for a guy that has done NOTHING.  Lets not BS a BS&#039;er.  The Mets have not liked Ryan Church or Schneider from the day they were brought to town.  Why is that?  All you can ask of someone is to give it their all.  I believe both players have.  I have not always liked the results but I do know they play hard.  I can&#039;t say that for everyone in that dugout and if you ask me with the rumors of Bernazrd recently, I am sure the latin connection is coming up again.  Church always seemed like a guy that wanted to say something but didn&#039;t because he was afraid of rocking the boat.  I see similar traits in Wright.  LoDuca had no problem speaking his mind and where is he now.

I consider the Braves organization to be one of the best in baseball.  I would kill to have Bobby Cox as our manager.  If he tired of Francoeur then what does that say for what we just traded for.  To me this sounds like an NBA trade.  The Mets will get a guy and have the option not to tender him a contract so they basically wash their hands of either player for next year.

The only way this trade works is if Minaya has had conversations with other teams for a package.  If Church was the problem getting done but Francoeur would suffice then fine.  But I doubt that this is the case.

What really pi**es me off is that even though David lennon thinks their will be an organizational review at years end, Minaya will keep his job due to the numerous injuries.  Well if he did his job and stocked the farm which he promised to do when he took the job, we would be in better shape.  So we will have this crappy team culture next year as well.  

We need new blood at the top, especially if players like Reyes, Wright and Beltran are going to be surrounded by players going forward or if we are going to trade one in the off-season.  Why is it that Minaya gets a pass?  He has been here long enough with well over 100 million to play with.  The results and depth should be better.

I feel happy for Church because even though he is going to a team that won&#039;t make the playoffs he will be treated like a pro under Bobby Cox.  Our circus continues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry but as minor as this trade is in the history of the Mets it really shows why they are a loser organization.  A hard working player that did EVERYTHING the team asked and produced with moderate results is traded for a guy that has done NOTHING.  Lets not BS a BS&#8217;er.  The Mets have not liked Ryan Church or Schneider from the day they were brought to town.  Why is that?  All you can ask of someone is to give it their all.  I believe both players have.  I have not always liked the results but I do know they play hard.  I can&#8217;t say that for everyone in that dugout and if you ask me with the rumors of Bernazrd recently, I am sure the latin connection is coming up again.  Church always seemed like a guy that wanted to say something but didn&#8217;t because he was afraid of rocking the boat.  I see similar traits in Wright.  LoDuca had no problem speaking his mind and where is he now.</p>
<p>I consider the Braves organization to be one of the best in baseball.  I would kill to have Bobby Cox as our manager.  If he tired of Francoeur then what does that say for what we just traded for.  To me this sounds like an NBA trade.  The Mets will get a guy and have the option not to tender him a contract so they basically wash their hands of either player for next year.</p>
<p>The only way this trade works is if Minaya has had conversations with other teams for a package.  If Church was the problem getting done but Francoeur would suffice then fine.  But I doubt that this is the case.</p>
<p>What really pi**es me off is that even though David lennon thinks their will be an organizational review at years end, Minaya will keep his job due to the numerous injuries.  Well if he did his job and stocked the farm which he promised to do when he took the job, we would be in better shape.  So we will have this crappy team culture next year as well.  </p>
<p>We need new blood at the top, especially if players like Reyes, Wright and Beltran are going to be surrounded by players going forward or if we are going to trade one in the off-season.  Why is it that Minaya gets a pass?  He has been here long enough with well over 100 million to play with.  The results and depth should be better.</p>
<p>I feel happy for Church because even though he is going to a team that won&#8217;t make the playoffs he will be treated like a pro under Bobby Cox.  Our circus continues.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581141</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581141</guid>
		<description>I am not anti stats, I am just not stats obsessed, I dont need to get to VORP and WARF and hyperdrive six two one eight to know that Francouer has things he needs to turn around in his game to be a better player.

IT DOES NOT take much of a look beyond improving his OBP which consequently should improve his SLG, and surprise his productivity will be up. 

These spreadsheet stats are designed to over accentuate the obvious, which is why fantasy baseball junkies LOVE THEM, they love to overstate the obvious.

Whether Francouer can in fact change his game around, remains to be seen, other players have done it, and they nor the coaches and scouts discussed how to VORP and WARP themselves into shape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not anti stats, I am just not stats obsessed, I dont need to get to VORP and WARF and hyperdrive six two one eight to know that Francouer has things he needs to turn around in his game to be a better player.</p>
<p>IT DOES NOT take much of a look beyond improving his OBP which consequently should improve his SLG, and surprise his productivity will be up. </p>
<p>These spreadsheet stats are designed to over accentuate the obvious, which is why fantasy baseball junkies LOVE THEM, they love to overstate the obvious.</p>
<p>Whether Francouer can in fact change his game around, remains to be seen, other players have done it, and they nor the coaches and scouts discussed how to VORP and WARP themselves into shape.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581120</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581120</guid>
		<description>I love how anti-stat people don&#039;t care about whether what they&#039;re saying is true. VORP and WARP actually are basically useless for fantasy purposes. Their actual purpose is to analyze how useful players are to their REAL teams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love how anti-stat people don&#8217;t care about whether what they&#8217;re saying is true. VORP and WARP actually are basically useless for fantasy purposes. Their actual purpose is to analyze how useful players are to their REAL teams.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581119</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581119</guid>
		<description>Vorp, Warp, Snorf and Snafu are all great stats for fantasy baseball junkies.  It does not take a genius or mathematician to know that Francouer HAS to improve his selectivity and be willing to take walks in order to improve his all around game.

The defensive stat metrics are so flawed and do NOT take into account so many real life nuisances of how the game is played who pitches against what hitter and how a team positions players let alone the fact that on one of Francouers most key values, his arm, teams absolutely no longer run on it.

His offensive game is flawed but other players with as much or less physical talent as Francouer were able to figure it out.  

I&#039;d rather take the dice roll on trying to work with a 25 year old like Francouer vs. the 30 year old enigma that can&#039;t touch third base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vorp, Warp, Snorf and Snafu are all great stats for fantasy baseball junkies.  It does not take a genius or mathematician to know that Francouer HAS to improve his selectivity and be willing to take walks in order to improve his all around game.</p>
<p>The defensive stat metrics are so flawed and do NOT take into account so many real life nuisances of how the game is played who pitches against what hitter and how a team positions players let alone the fact that on one of Francouers most key values, his arm, teams absolutely no longer run on it.</p>
<p>His offensive game is flawed but other players with as much or less physical talent as Francouer were able to figure it out.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d rather take the dice roll on trying to work with a 25 year old like Francouer vs. the 30 year old enigma that can&#8217;t touch third base.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581115</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581115</guid>
		<description>Constnza, fans like you are amazing, you obsess with the likes of Castro and Church just because you can, not because it MEANS anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Constnza, fans like you are amazing, you obsess with the likes of Castro and Church just because you can, not because it MEANS anything.</p>
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		<title>By: kd bart</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581114</link>
		<dc:creator>kd bart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581114</guid>
		<description>Although  not great, he&#039;s produced better numbers than Castro.  Castro was roster fodder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although  not great, he&#8217;s produced better numbers than Castro.  Castro was roster fodder.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate W.</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581111</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581111</guid>
		<description>At the minor league Toby Hyde has a nice write up rebuffing all of Minaya&#039;s different attempts at justifying this trade.  Good detail regarding the defensive claims, and real value of these two players.  

http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/07/11/church-for-francouer-wtf/#comments</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the minor league Toby Hyde has a nice write up rebuffing all of Minaya&#8217;s different attempts at justifying this trade.  Good detail regarding the defensive claims, and real value of these two players.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/07/11/church-for-francouer-wtf/#comments" rel="nofollow">http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/07/11/church-for-francouer-wtf/#comments</a></p>
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		<title>By: Constnza81</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581109</link>
		<dc:creator>Constnza81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581109</guid>
		<description>So what? What has Santos done since his little Cinderella run in May? The bottom line is this organization is run like a pre-school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what? What has Santos done since his little Cinderella run in May? The bottom line is this organization is run like a pre-school.</p>
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		<title>By: kd bart</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581108</link>
		<dc:creator>kd bart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2009/07/10/reaction-the-church-for-francouer-deal/#comment-581108</guid>
		<description>Castro is all of 3 for 26 with 2 homers and 5 rbis since joining the White Sox.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Castro is all of 3 for 26 with 2 homers and 5 rbis since joining the White Sox.</p>
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