In case you missed it, last night, Jon Heyman of SI.com said Mets GM Omar Minaya rejected a deal from Blue Jays GM JP 
Riccardi for RHP Roy Halladay, in return for OF Fernando Martinez, Bobby Parnell, Jon Niese and 17–year-old SS Ruben Tejada.
However, today, in a post to Twitter, ESPN’s Keith Law says the trade rumor is ‘bogus,’ having been ‘shot down by multiple sources.’
Similarly, I talked with a baseball person in Philadelphia, an agent, and two people connected to the Mets, and all four believe Minaya would have accepted such a deal had it been actually presented to him, i.e., maybe the Jays and Mets talked, but no hard offer was made.
I mean, I know I would have done it; and, according to a recent poll, 75 percent of people who read MetsBlog.com would have done the deal as well.
What’s more, in the Daily News, Adam Rubin writes, “Ricciardi ought to be fired on the spot for proposing it. And Minaya ought to be fired for rejecting it.”
Yet, the report is out there…
The thing is, I believe Heyman is great at what he does, he’s not senationalistic, and he’s trusted and respected all across the sport.
So, I’m left confused, wondering what this all means…
I wonder if Riccardi leaked this to spook the Phillies, who some baseball insiders feel are the only legitimate suitor for Halladay?
I mean, how better to milk the Phillies for top prospects than for Riccardi to make it seem like the Mets could get Halladay at any moment?
On the other hand, if Halladay-to-Philadelphia is inevitable, how better for Minaya and Riccardi to get the Phillies to overpay then to make it seem like the Mets could easily be involved?
Or, maybe the Mets are trying to raise the value of their own prospects by suggesting Niese, Parnell and Martinez are worth more than Halladay?
Or, perhaps Minaya did reject it, just like Heyman said, and, instead, is still working with Riccardi on something more expansive, which could be why he would not confirm or deny the report when asked about it yesterday?
Who knows? The point is, nothing is ever as simple as it seems…
In any case, we’ll find out at some point in the next 10 days, at which point it will be a lot more easier to judge this.
{ 88 comments }
Keith Law of ESPN just said the report is 100% false. He said multiple sources shot it down.
And Jon Heyman will just continue to make stuff up and get paid for it.
Where did Law write, ‘100 percent false?’
I didn’t see that, and would like to add it to the post.
I did not quote him. He said it was bogus, which by definition means 100% false. I used the word false, he used the word bogus. They are synonymous to one another. Anything less than 100% means it is no longer bogus.
However, ‘rumor’ and ‘report’ are not synonymous, yet you took the liberty to make that editorial change. The rumor is not bogus. The report was. You should change the post.
Razor please stop trying to play semantics, Law claims the story is bogus, that does not mean he is 100% accurate and you know it.
Bogus is essentially his opinion based on his sources, not his opinion based on pure fact.
I was not the one who played semantics. I agree with you.
No, we dont agree, Law saying it was bogus is his opinion based on his sources, that is not the same as saying it is unequivocally not true. Matt asked a legitimate and simple question because he would have liked to add that to the post on the subject.
Example, five years ago there were beat writers and reporters who opined that the rumors of Scott Kazmir being dealt to the Rays could not be true. None said that it was without question 100% false, because they could not.
And since Law worked in Toronto’s front office, I would think he might have a source or two there.
Lets speculate for a moment, if this deal were in fact proposed and the Mets said no, would you want it to be publically know to the other teams that are interested in Halladay that the Mets balked on it for an injured prospect, a decent lefty, a coin flip reliever and a marginal shortstop?
If this rumor were true and then you ask the Phillies for Drabek, or BoSox for Bucholz etc etc they would laugh you off the phone.
It is in the best interest of the Blue Jays that the Mets did NOT reject this offer, of course the Blue Jays would deny it.
Not saying that is the case, but they gain nothing be allowing this rumor to be even discussed.
If we dont get Halladay after the Jays came to us to get a deal done I dont even know how I will be able to contain myself from flipping out. We arent trading for Victor Zambrano here, we are trading for the best pitcher in baseball!!! IS this organization st*pid????
If we dont get this deal done I dont care what Fred or Jeff Wilpon says but it is further proof that they got completely wiped out by Bernie Madoff. Our payroll is less than last year as it is. Bring in the best pitcher in baseball you m@rons!!!!!!!!! I h@te this organization
Just because Heyman reported it, doesn’t mean it is so. It’s complete bull meant to smoke out other teams to up their offers.
Heyman is pretty accurate with what he reports. I’m sure we will hear from Heyman on WFAN sooner than later. Stay tunned…
This is exactly what a Mets fan needs right now…. ugh
Exactly! The last thing Mets fans need right now is something else to work us into a lather.
Can someone shed some light on something for me. I see the Jays are only 4.5 games out of the AL East, not to mention a WC contender. Halladay is under control for the next season (2010). Why on EARTH would they want to trade their ace now? Is there another pitcher ready to step into action there? Of course, if this deal were true (which I don’t think ever was), and I were Omar, I’d DRIVE those prospects to the airport myself. But what’s in it for the Jays?
Well in the rumors prior to this one, the team acquiring Halladay would have to take on one of the other contracts like Rios or Wells. The Jays are trying to clear up some space on their Payroll which is pretty high for a smaller market team who has to battle with the Yanks and Red Sox every year and now with Tampa. At a little over 80 million 12 of which is tied up with BJ Ryan who was recently cut. Another 11 million for Rios, 18 million for Wells and 13 million or halladay.
So 54 million is tied up in 4 players 1 of which isn’t on the team any longer in Ryan..
They are trying to get some maneuverability. In the Ideal situation they wouldn’t trade Halladay and move Rios and Wells, and keep Halladay. But currently they feel that won’t happen.
The Jays are currently 9.5 games out in the division and just as far back in the WC.
VCarver – you are right. Apparently at 7 am , Tampa Bay = Toronto to me. Still – I don’t get the deal. I guess that was my point.
my favorite 2 parts of the article:
Ricciardi ought to be fired on the spot for proposing it. And Minaya ought to be fired for rejecting it.
right on
and the one to give met fans hope.
Or, perhaps Minaya did reject it, just like Heyman said, and, instead, is still working with Riccardi on something more expansive, which could be why he would not confirm or deny the report when asked about it yesterday?
you simaltaneously want him fired but hope he is working on the deal still, I see…
Yes that’s what i’m saying, exactly.
No if he indeed did just brush that off with a NO he should be fired.
If he is working on something else then you know why he said no.
Also i heard the rumor and thought it was complete BS, last night. Before anyone posted anything that they heard it wasn’t true.
do you want a door prize?
Yes please… What do i win!
I am not following one of the key flows of logic here, what leverage does Riccardi gain by having Minaya turn down Halladay for one valuable prospect and three very iffy ones? If anything that gives Philadelphia more leverage.
The only thing I am getting out of all of this is that JP Riccardi on many levels may be a severe moron.
That’s another good point Patrick. My only thinking is that if this WERE a true proposal (which is looking more and more like it’s not or never was), is that the four prospects might have been a springboard. But was Ricciardi the same GM in charge when Steve Phillips apparently gift-wrapped DW for Jose Cruz Jr? If so, he should be fired for turning that deal down, LOL. But seriously – it’s not like Halladay is a half-year rental. He’s under control for another year. Why would this be beneficial to Jays, a move like this? It’s not like they are completely out of the race or anything…
If I were Riccardi and looking to trade Halladay to the Phils, the first I’d looked to get back is a young starter who has already shown he can win at the major league level. All trades with the Phils would have to include JA Happ as part of the package..
sure, but the Phils are really irrelevant, I am tyring to understand the difference between fact, fiction and insanity here.
The Mets don’t have that to offer and the Phils do. That’s why this is complete bull. You figure they would want someone back who can slide into their rotation who doesn’t cost much. Happ is 26 and only makes $405K.
The Mets have that, it is a matter of whether they would part with it.
The same could be said for the Phils, which is probably what the Jays are finding out now, that while the Phils have a good farm system, they would like to keep it that way.
Why in the world would the Phils trade a 27 y/o pitcher with an ERA under 3.00 who is 7-0 for a guy that’s already 32 y/o and has been injured? I mean Halladay is one of the best, but why give up 5 years in age, and player who is cheap and under control for years to come for a guy that will cost atleast 3 times as much and may very well be gone in a years time. It doesn’t makes sense, not too mention the 2 or 3 prospects the Jays would want beyond Happ. I’m telling ya Halladay is going nowhere untill the off-season. You watch.
Because when you pencil in a rotation for the playoffs and can drop Cole Hamels to number 2 each series and not start a guy like Happ at all while trying to win back to back titles for a franchise that has been beleagured by history at best, well you can’t the point, if JA Happ is what is holding the Phillies back, there fan base will be more irrate than the Mets.
I disagree, you don’t go trading a 27 y/o pitcher who’s 7-0 with ERA under 3.00 for anybody much less a 32 y/o pitcher. ANd why drop Hammels to 2nd in a playoff rotation, with the way he is pitching this year he shouldn’t even sniff the playoff rotation! 5-5 with a 4.72 ERA with that offense? Please, if anything that another reason not to get rid of Happ! He pitching better than their so called “Ace”
Listen, we can talk sensibly, which means that on earth while Hamels is struggling no one is mistaking him for JA Happ, or we can be silly and wear Mets goggles and bad mouth a pitcher who won 4 games in the postseason last year with a WHIP below 1.00.
JA Happ might be someone they’d like to consider keeping but won’t be a deal breaker for Philadelphia.
Any pitcher can get a roll for a few big games especially with that offense. ( See Ollie Perez, Derek Lowe….etc) What has he done since? I’m sorry, no way Philly gives up Happ if they do they are dumber than I thought.
Buddy, you are delusional, Hamels was on a role for two years, Happ has had 11 good starts, the Phillies offense did not throw to sub 1.00 WHIP against the Brewers, Manny Dodgers and Tamp Bay Rays.
You are actually contradicting yourself quite a bit here.
Then again, Marty Bystrom went 5-0 in September for the 1980 Phils..Was he ever that good again? This could be the peak of Happ’s career.
Welcome to the twitter age… where everyone is trying so hard to be the first person with a story, we’re left with messes like this..
There is no way Omar turns down that package for Hallady.. none… I agree it’s complete BS, and probably meant to get the Phils excited.
Um, Jon Heyman does not need Twitter to break a false story, that really makes no sense.
K-law replies via twitter… mets nation “re-tweets” this stupid rumor via twitter.. fans of all teams get excited.. it’s a mess..
If this was a link on a story 5 years ago it doesn’t get nearly the exposure it gets now.
On the contrary, five years ago is when the Kazmir disaster occurred, and sans Twitter rumors were flying and people were going crazy. The speed or means by which people communicate something has no bearing on the issue, Twitter did not cause this rumored trade proposal to become a problem, the contents of the rumor did.
What he’s saying is taking stories off Twitter and saying they are 100% fact is a bad thing to do.
And that is what is happening all the time now-a-days. There is no fact checking, no sources, nothing. People with a reputation good or bad can post something and it gets out there.
Yes Heyman has been wrong 100 times over. But he’s also got a reputable name. So if he’s posting it people will take it as fact and run with it. Which isn’t the best thing to do.
no one was saying it was 100% fact, but it is not like JoeyWalnuts from da Bronx tweeted this, good grief.
Matt, I think you’re right on the money about the Mets floating this out there as a way to increase the value of their own prospects. This version of the story – Jays propose, Mets turn it down – really only benefits the Mets. And there is a rich history of reporters being used by GMs to churn out the rumor mill to their advantage (see Peter Gammons/Billy Beane).
i agree, that sounds like it could be a real possibility of why this was done…but that leads me to my next question…..if these guys are too good for roy halladay….who are they not too good for? Now i know if it was real minaya probably woulda jumped on it…but i see how maybe now u dont need to unload the farm for a bat because u might have boosted enough value…but the problem is…every insider has shot this down it seems…so i dont think it got the mets prospects anymore value anyway
On a side Note…boy Matt Holliday would look good in LF for the stretch run….starting to prove coors field wasnt his problem(which he stated in an interview a while back..said he messed with his swing and it turned out to be a bad thing) He practically carried the A’s including a clutch game tying grand slam…that bat would look nice in the #4 spot…but omar said hes not trading for a rental….damn
well i would say i wouldn’t trade 4 solid Prospects for a guy when all you’d have to do is give up 2 via FA if he’s a Type A to get him in the offseason.
the other way to look at that is..u trade some solid prospects for him and either u have a real LFer for the future(as in resign him) or the mets get 2 first round picks…and if they draft smart..they can be upgrades over the guys they traded
common mistake. The mets don’t give up 2 picks, just 1 (1st round unless in top 15, otherwise 2nd round)
The A’s would get 2 picks, the Mets + a supplemental pick not taken from the Mets.
Oh, the Mets only lose the pick if the A’s offer arbitration to Holliday too.
Good point, i always say 2 because of the supplemental.
He is not proving anything he has had 5 solid games to pull his meager OPS above .800 for the first tme this year, lets see him keep it up more than a week.
I’d wait on Holliday he could be forced to sign a Scott Boras special, one or two year deal with incentive the way he has played this year.
Does anyone else find the timing of this to be a huge coincidence? GM and Manager’s jobs are safe is reported before the game, and the GM rejects a trade (clearly lopsided) shortly after. My guess is the Wilpons never intended to reveal that Omar and Jerry were safe, and this is another fun diversionary tactic keep the focus on the team rather than the fun house that is the front office.
Along those lines, can we please fire Bernazard? I have yet to hear one positive thing he does, but there consistently read about undermining and disruptive behavior. Unless he is the best VP of player development ever, he just can’t be worth it.
im guessing u read adam rubins postgame wrap up on his blog? I agree, I dont think ive ever heard anything good about Tony B…how this guy has a job is beyond me
MetsRmilife (they are mine too, LOL), I agree 100% with what you said. The SAME article that made a mention of this also made a slight little “Oh btw, did you notice Bernazard FLIPPED OUT on a Mets lackey in public at a game?” That guys needs to go, I mean, how much do you want to bet that he leaked this story about this trade proposal out as well?
I read Rubin’s blog, but I have had these feelings about Bernazard for awhile.
Don’t forget, Heyman was the one who continually talked about phantom suitors for Manny over the winter. It’s as if he was on Boras’ payroll, driving up the market for Manny with false information.
He lost a lot of credibility with me over that. So even if this rung true, you simply can’t put too much stock into Heyman when it comes to trade rumors.
Having said that, I hope there is a kernel of truth to it. Maybe Omar can work on a Halladay-Rios trade. At the very least, if this somehow drives up the price for the Phillies, then it’s a good thing.
Is Halladay a Bora$ client?
No. But if Heyman was willing to do Boras’ bidding, he’d likely do it for another agent and/or GM.
He’s a tool. Or, at least he lets himself be used as one very often.
I’d expand the trade like this:
Jays gets John Maine, F-Mart, Niese, Parnell and Tejada.
Mets get Halladay and Rios.
Jays get a pitcher to replace Halladay once Maine comes off the DL. They also get a set-up man, an additional young starter and our top positional prospect. In addition, they get from under the Rios contract.
the only way I would expand the deal is if the Mets got salary relief on Rios, if they want to throw in Rios as an albatross to giving away less talent than it was perceived Halladay would net, I am okay with that.
Id do that in a second..i think…but thing is…the jays might not want anyone from that package except fmart…if the report was false then they clearly never offered it..which means they might want Fmart…flores…holt…mejia…..like its not a foregone conclusion that this deal is what it would take…i think it would be alot more then that
That’s great, but now we have no payroll space to make any other additions if needed. That’s part of what got us in this current mess in the first place! ONce Omar signed K-Rod, and Perez he in effect shot his wad on payroll space. We had nothing left to aquire a real left fielder.
Keep in mind, Omar only has what the Wilpons are willing/want to/can spend. I have a feeling the reason the Mets went into the offseason with a bang and left with a whimper was because of a guy with the initials B.M. who fleeced the Wilpons out of hundreds of millions. That said, I think Mets fans should raise as a consortium 20% of the value of the team, buy them out, THEN we will have our say as investors/shareholders. Who’s with me?? :D
UUH, that was kinda my point! That we can’t afford to tie up too much money in 2 players with so many other holes to fill.
Dude fair enough, we are on the same side here. You made it sounds as though it’s all just Omar’s call. And he may have “full autonomy” but we all know that’s a smoke screen as he has full autonomy…so long as the Wilpon’s give him the checkbook and OK for a deal.
I think the real package would have to start with F-Mart, Niese, Parnell, FLORES plus another prospect. There is no way the package reported gets it done.
Agreed.. Tejada is kinda what ruins this story for me.. hes not the key to any deal…
Plus he isn’t 17, Flores is, could have been a mix up. Then the proposal could make more sense. At least as a starting point. But of course then i don’t do the deal.
I know everyone is in love with the idea of Santana/Halladay, but if we analyze this in the real world (where there are budgets and consequences), this would be a poor idea.
Someone said earlier that we have $23mil coming off the books. I believe we would be adding back $16mil for Halladay’s 2010 salary. That leaves $7mil. If we add Rios in these fantasy scenarios, we’re already increasing budget, before addressing our other holes. (Oh, and Rios is heavily overpaid for what he provides, and he’s under contract until 2013 or something.)
We would still need to find a catcher, a 1B, and a RF (no, Francoeur is not a solution, folks—his OPS+ is 73) and we’re already increasing budget.
If we don’t get Rios, we’ll also need a LF, and we’ll have that $7mil to land a C, 1B, LF, and RF. Four players for a total of $7mil? Not good. We’d have to add at least $20mil in payroll.
And, to be honest, trusting Oliver Perez, Mike Pelfrey, and John Maine as your 3-5 would be foolish. They are inconsistent/injured, and I’m not seeing any change in that. I think a free agent signing to solidify the back 3/5 of the rotation would be necessary.
I’m not against trading those prospects, but they should help get us affordable second-tier complementary pieces that round out our team. We have so much production dependent on 6 guys—Beltran, Delgado, Reyes, Wright, Santana, KRod. If more than one of them goes down, the team collapses, because the rest of the roster is devoid of talent. Adding Halladay (in the real world, where we can only add so much payroll/sign so much talent) simply perpetuates this model.
u cant say hes not the answer in RF…the last 2 years have been a disaster for him in atlanta…he needed a change of scenary and he got one…i wasnt for the trade when it happened..but if he keeps playing like he is….hes 25…who doesnt want him in RF….and as far as murphy at 1B…hes defense is solid…if he can hit more in the 2nd half…i think the bigger issue would be LF…id love for the mets to get holliday because if any combo of wright/murphy/francoeur hit with holliday here..and guys like pagan/castillo playing well…this offense isnt so pathetic anymore….but it seems minaya is set on not trading for a rental…but oh well
They have about $35-40 million coming off the books if you include Putz. That’s enough to accommodate Halladay-Rios if the Wilpons also increase the payroll by about $5-10 million next year, which I think they can do while still staying under the luxury tax threshold.
you actually don’t even need to take Putz into account.
Don’t forget, though, that some of the backloaded contracts will increase next year.
the only increases next year are Wright and Reyes, Beltran is flat, Santana goes up $1M, Frankie is flat….looked at all the contracts
K-Rod’s goes up by $3 million. The raises for Reyes, Wright, Santana and K-Rod will come to about $10 million total.
The Mets are actually only firmly committed to $95M for 2010 at this point.
Halladay and Rios would make that $122M, ideally you might sway some salary relief on Rios.
The Mets have options on a player like Putz who is slated to make nearly $10M, and there will be less resistance for a team to take on the likes of a Luis Castillo following a good year and only 2 years left on a contract, so you can see flexibility in moving some existing talent.
With a healthy Beltran, Reyes and Wright; Rios and Francouer give you suitable corners with some pop. And frankly I’d worry about what to do between Rios, Francouer, 1B and C come the off seaon, but financially it is doable.
Are you including the backloaded contracts?
The contracts for Johan, Jose, Wright and K-Rod all increase next year.
Santana only goes up $1M next year, Frankie is flat, Beltran flat, Jose and David combined to go up about $6M
K-Rod’s goes up by $3 million next year. So that’s about $10 million in raises for 2010 for those 4 players. That’s why I think either Putz has to go and/or the Wilpons need to raise the payroll slightly, which I don’t think will be a problem.
Frankie’s deal does not go up at all next year, he only stands to get an increase in his option year.
Yes, it does go up according to Cott’s baseball contracts. Please go to their website and look it up.
K-Rod is being paid 8.5 million this year. It goes up to 11.5 million in 2010.
So the Mets payroll will rise by $10 million next year on the raises of those 4 mets alone.
Here’s the link in case you don’t know how to find it:
mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/new-york-mets.html
I think that by saying “we’re only committed to $95mil” (or $122mil with Hal/Rios) we’re distorting the picture, Patrick.
We may be only on the hook for that much right now, but that’s for like 8-10 players, no? We still have to obtain and pay the other 15-17 players, which will take us above the Wilpon $$$ threshold.
You definitely know more about the salaries than I do; I’m just kinda guessing. Do you have a list of who we’re paying next year and how much? (I wouldn’t even know where to look.)
I tried to post the link but it is not posting do to the comments restrictions, cots contracts on blogspot has what I consider to be the most accurate budget projections for each team. Yes there are players that need to be considered but it is far less than 15-17
following will be under contract in 2010:
Santana, Maine, Pelfrey, Perez, Frankie, Putz, Murphy, Castillo, Reyes, Wright, Francouer, Beltran
the likes of Parnell, Stokes, Santos, Feliciano are likely to be retained.
Halladay and Rios would then bring committed total to 18 players with roughly $20M to spread on 7 roster spots , an “average” of $2.86 per player, half will be signifcantly less at near league minimums, the other half can balloon to a near $4.6M on average, there is room to play yet.
I do not think we need to address at catcher. what we do need is 1 big bat and another good offensive player. Thats 2 players between 3 positions – C, 1B and LF. You want to add RF to that mix ( I dont) feel free.
The idea we need a power bat at a specifc position is overrated. If we get Bay to Play Left and then sign a good 1B, we can live with Santos behind the plate.
or…If we get mauer then we dont need to fill one of the other 2 poistions – 1B or LF
Off topic: I thought this warranted posting,
F-Core since he’s been a Met:
.345 .517 .345………with 7 RBI in 7 games……..Thank you Mr Wren!
I think it was a very good move by Omar getting a 25 year old for a RF who hasnt done anything and isnt part of the core(i am a church fan by the way)
With that said, its too early to read into those stats.
With all due respect, when I read what Jon Heyman says I just don’t take it seriously. This isn’t the first time. He uses the word ”believe.” I could ”believe” what I’d like to and discuss it in a breakroom of people who work for SI too, but it’s not going to be something I publish. I’m very happied he embarrassed himself. I’m not sure whether or not whether Omar would accept it or not, but you traditionally don’t accept prospects who are going through surgery via trade.
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