In a post to his blog for the New York Post, Joel Sherman poses a series of questions regarding Daniel Murphy, such as:
“Can the Mets trust first base to Murphy for 2010, and use their limited funds to find a No. 2 starter, left fielder and relief help?”
To read quotes from Murphy, speaking about the fans, quality baseball, pressure and winning, read Steve Popper’s report for the Bergen Record.
Jerry Manuel discussed Murphy prior to yesterday’s game, saying to reporters:
“I think he has been just like any good young hitter: for a period of time, stubborn… He was pretty much taking that pitch on the inside, and this year he’s putting a stronger swing on it, and hitting the ball in the right-center gap or hitting it out… That gives me optimism that he could continue to do that over a long period of time… I think he’s going to be what we all thought he would be. We always question where the power was. I think that you’re going to see a pretty good player with some power. I wouldn’t say 30, 35 home runs – I would say a guy who could hit 20-plus homers.”
Murphy is batting .266 and leads the Mets with 11 home runs and 36 doubles – he is seven RBI behind David Wright for the team lead in runs batted in.
In a post to Bob’s Blitz, Bob points out that Tino Martinez hit .257 with 16 home runs and 66 RBI in his first full season in the major leagues.
Last week on WFAN, host Mike Francesa asked, ‘What is it with the Met fans obsession with Daniel Murphy?’
… that’s easy, because there is a section of the fan pool, of which i am in, who love murphy’s story, i.e., the young kid, dedicated, passionate, sort of an over-achiever, home grown, who loves the game, and who plays hard and works even harder… so, i’ll be the first to admit, because of his story, when murphy struggles, i probably look beyond the results… and, when he does well, like last September, April and this September, i see him on a path to being the next Don Mattingly or Mark Grace… even though, deep down inside, i know there is a chance he could very easily find himself on the bench next season, acting as ‘the next Matt Franco,’ as Joe Janish of Mets Today suggested last month…
If nothing else, Murph is a ML level player. He can hit at this level enough to justify being in the league. He is 24 and learning a new position. He could continue to add power to his resume as he matures as a hitter and person. He does not project out like Delgado in his hey day or most others from an important power spot like 1b. Could he raise his OBP from .315 to say .350 next year…maybe. Could he develop some more power and addl rbi totals if given the 6th spot in the order regularly…maybe
I see him as a place setter for the next 1b guy who likely will be homegrown also (Ike Davis). I think if we secure a big OF bat, then we can live with Murph through next year.
If they could only teach him to play 2nd base at replacement level…we would really have something. He could be an all star reserve at 2b if he hits to his potential with almost 20 hrs and 80 – 90 rbi while batting .280 with a .350 OBP.
I like Murph…dont love him and think he can be a piece for the long haul but likely not at 1b or LF
this isnt the yankees and we cant have an allstar at every position. Fact is we need a LF then at least 1 starter before we think about 1B. my guess is we wont have enough money. soooo, let the kid play and see if he develops. He is not going to be the reason we dont make the playoffs next year.
We as fans always seem to contradict ourselves. We say let the young players develop and when we do that but they dont hit 300 25 100 right out of the box, we all of a sudden think he needs to go.
I was big on Muprhy coming in to 2009, then wasnt so much but the past couple of months he has impressed me. I do believe this kid could be at least a 280 15-20hr 402bs 90 rbi player next year.
Let the kid play and lets move on. (of course if Adrian gonzalez becomes available……)
Some fans are just reaching for something to cheer about. He’s a decent hitter but not much else. He is a liability in the field and on the base paths. He’ll probably be given 2-3 more seasons as an everyday guy(whether Mets or elsewhere) and hit in the .270 range with 10-15 homers and a fair amount of doubles per season, before becoming a good lefty pinch hitter type(Marlon Anderson circa 2005).
I disagree and think that some fans are just reaching for something to complain about. If the team wasnt decimated by injuries and was winning, everyone would be lauding murphy and how he overcame two position changes on the ML level and could still field and hit well….
I also disagree with you ae37jr i think you are being too critical of Murphy and writing off a 24 year old after his first full season in the majors. He’s doing fine right now and hopefully next year he can develop more power. I also think its silly to say he is a liability in the field when he’s played a good first base.
I’m not writing him off, I think he’ll be in the big leagues for a while and get more chances. But from what I’ve seen, he is missing a lot of the elements necessary to be an everyday player.
One of them is definitely defense. I always here the excuse that he is learning a new position. Well he is 24 and has yet to learn any position. Even as a third baseman he made 48 errors in 195 games in the low minors.I guess he is passable as a first baseman but not with a .265 average with 10 hr and only 60 RBI while hitting 4th/5th most of the season. His 2008 season has been below replacement level in just about every area except doubles.
I’m also not one of those constant haters either. Feel free to search previous posts. I fully supported Delgado in 2007 and Castillo in 2008 when everyone wanted to eat their contracts and release them. Murphy can be a decent ML player, but he shouldn’t be a starter on a good team(which I hope we be again soon)
The 2007 delgado should have been released. He pretty much stunk for 80 games in ’08 but got a pass and an additional 12 million dollars for 80 good games. Had he not been awful for 80 games the mets might not have come down to the wire… I know it’s not his fault alone, but if he wasn’t hitting .171 with no power for 3 full months the mets would have cruised and had an insurmountable lead.
Also you wouldn’t have had the gaping Hole that Murphy has filled admirably since he got the everyday job this year. But most likely Murphy would have been in AAA.
Instead we payed Delgado to sit out 140+ games.
I don’t think he is a liability in the field or on the base paths. In fact, I think quite the opposite. He’s been pretty impressive at first base. Obviously there is a learning curve considering it’s his first year playing the position, but even Jerry Manuel said in the pre-game yesterday that he was very impressed with Murphy defensively, and he knows the kid can pick a ground ball. It’s also nice to see a guy charge on a bunt, grab it on the short hop and throw out the lead runner at second base from almost home plate as he did last night. Murphy is only going to get better defensively at first base. He may never be a gold glover … but I think he’d be an above average fielding 1B in short order.
On the base paths, he’s aggressive and he hustles constantly. He’s made some rookie mistakes, but he’ll learn that stuff over time. In the end, you want guys who are hungry for an extra base and willing to bust it around the bases.
A lot of the stats he’s putting up are in September when every game has been 100% meaningless to us. He can hit 10 homers in the next week and I could care less. He was putrid when we were in the race, when we were looking for people to step up. No way do I want him starting in ’10.
For me, the intrigue with Murphy is that he is home grown.
As a 40 year Met fan, I think i can sum it up in 4 words: “The Nolan Ryan Curse”
Nolan Ryan was traded for Jim Fregosi on December 10, 1971. This is easily the worst trade in Mets history, to this date. The Seaver trade was a dark day in history, but we had won a world series and a pennant with Seaver, along with 10 seasons of greatness. The Kazmir trade is lopsided, but Kazmir is no Ryan. All the Kazmir trade really did was reinforce the Ryan Curse. Ditto Jason Bay.
So Murphy, white, black, asian or hispanic, is going to be given a chance, on the off chance that he might be the next Nolan Ryan. If he is, I hope we don’t let him get away.
What on earth is this post about?
I would hope by now you’ve stopped lamenting a trade of an underachieving pitcher who was threatening to retire if he wasn’t traded to a former all-star third baseman 38 years ago.
There are no curses. The Mets also traded Neil Allen and Rick Ownbey for Keith Hernandez, Ed Heard for David Cone, Robert Person for John Olerud, and Preston Wilson for Mike Piazza.
Dave, how long have you been a met fan? Yes I still obsess about the Ryan trade. The only trade I ever felt might lift the curse was the David Cone – Ed Hearn trade. If only he had stayed a Mets longer
i also disagree with that notion above me. I think the problem is, the people that complain 24/7 are just fed up with the way this season went, so they just want everything redone, but in reality, i think theres more then a good chance that everything u see today will be the same next year with the exception of SS(reyes) and LF(hopefully holliday)…i wouldnt be shocked to see thole/someone platoon at catcher, murph at 1B, castillo at 2B, 3B,CF,RF the same…and then reyes/holliday?
I’m completely fine with giving murphy another chance next year, and thats not necessarily a bad thing, the only reason he looks like a disappointment is because many people dont have patience, and the mets labeled him, and while i think theres a good chance he will develop into that .290 15-20 HR 80+ RBI hitter, but since he didnt do it in his rookie year(i dont count 1 AB as a pinch hitter on last game of season last year in judging him on being a rookie) he will never be good and he stinks….i dont understand how some people think sometimes
And the Tino Martinez comparison is absurd. Tino was a first-round draft pick. Murphy was a 13th-rounder.
Big things were always expected from Tino. It’s like Adrian Gonzalez and Jayson Werth. It may have taken them a little time, but they always had big-time talent.
Murphy doesn’t have that talent and odds are it’s not coming.
Also, let’s provide some context to those Tino numbers. I dont really have the time to do so, but here’s a quick (somewhat cherrypicked) snapshot. The year he hit 16 HRs, only seven AL players had 30 or more. This year, 11 have more than 30, with another 9 at 27+.
Tino would have had 10 homeruns if he was playing in Citi Field that year.
Why because Murphy was a 13th rounder would he not be able to be an above average Major league player. it happens more often then 1st rounders are busts. One of the greatest Mets in their history was a 62nd round draft pick and done as a favor by the godfather of his brother.
Was Mike piazza not good? Why is it ok for Adrian Gonzalez to take a little to develop, or Tino because they were first rounders, but we have absolutely no patience for Murphy.
Had mike been called up by the mets as a September call-up this year we would be calling him a bum, a Bust. No future, cause he hit .238 with 1 HR in 21 games.
I agree with some of the posters here. I don’t know what people expected from murphy, .330 20HR 100RBI. I said if he hits .280 with 15 HR he’d be fine in LF, and he would be fine at 1st base with those numbers as well. And you know what, outside 1 month of the season (MAY) he would be approaching those numbers.
Let the kid make his adjustments. No need to bring in anyone to stink at 1st, because the free agent class at 1st base is no good. Upgrade the LF position which has been a gaping hole for at least 10 years.
Having a player like murphy in the 7th spot of the lineup would take pressure off him and let him be comfortable.
Mike Piazza is the exception that proves the rule. But if you’d like to hang your hat on the one 62nd round pick that made it (thanks in large part to steroids, if we’re honest), then go ahead.
Granted, about half the first-rounders never make it, but 99% of 13th-rounders don’t make it at all. You would have to grant that the talent level of a first-rounder is much higher than a college kid in the 13th round.
Gonzalez and Werth always had the talent, we’re not sure if Murphy does.
And improved numbers because of better “protection” in the lineup is a myth.
Just so you know it’s about 90% of first round picks turn out to be bums…. Mets have had a very good experience with this.
And Piazza isn’t the exception to the rule. Major League Baseball is littered with guys who were picked later in the draft and turned out to be superstars, all-stars or good every day regulars.
Albert Freeking Pujols was a 13th round pick.
Let the kid have some sort of chance. Murphy isn’t going to be Albert. We know that. But Murphy could turn into a very good player.
“And you know what, outside 1 month of the season (MAY) he would be approaching those numbers.”
You need to go learn how to do math buddy. Murph hit .240 in June and .250 in July. I’m no rocket scientist but that doesn’t scream “.330 HITTER” to me. The kid has no business being on a major league roster
Well if you go do the math as i did the other day, Take out may his average for the year currently would be 280 and is OBP would be 350.
But my math skills are terrible cause you went and took out the months where he hit 300 to prove your point cause you don’t like a certain player.
Yeah I guess you’re right, i SHOULD be happy with a player who has 2 sorta OK months and 3 horrible months.
You are absolutely right. Comparing Murphy to Tino is another attempt by the Delusional Matt Cerrone to prop up Murphy so Cerrone can give him a hero’s worship. This is absurd. Murphy was a low-level prospect, and the fact that he’s “the best” in our system speaks volumes about how AWFUL our system is.
I think what you guys are missing about Murphy is that YES….he’s hitting .267 and only 11 HRs. But hopefully, with a fully healthy lineup next year, he’ll see better pitches and that avg may go up 20 or 30 points. HRs may go up 10. Right now, he bats out of the order he should be because we have had a makeshift team all year long. Protection, runners on base (can’t wait to get J-Rey back) and a healthy lineup will give him a better chance to succeed.
Add to that getting his first full year under his belt, and he should improve. I was not so enamored with a young Murphy hitting .313 in just a few short games last year. Play a full season to see where you stand…..watch out with Thole….everyone is falling into the same trap as we did with Murphy.
So after a full season, all the stuff he’s dealt with…position changes, psyche, injuries left and right….the kid has done well. Better than I expected. He’s no Delgado, but I can see a .290/19/90 guy next year. With Wright/Reyes/Beltran and a new LF, I’ll take that any day!
Oh…btw, Tino Martinez was once my substitute teacher at Jefferson High School in Tampa during Health class back in high school! I asked him, “so what’s your name?”, being the smart alec highschooler…not knowing who the heck he was (shame on me). He said, “Mr. Martinez”. I saw him on the Mariners just a year or so later. Funny.
As much as most of you hate Francesa, he cannot be applauded enough by me for being 800 % correct on this issue. Every passing day there seems to be new faux optimism for Murphy or a new excuse as to why he isn’t doing it this yr (24 is not that young, get over it).
As far as the racial undertone, I sort of disagree, as words like “scrappy, gritty, tough, winning attitude, intangibles, professional hitter,” etc. are buzz words for the minimally talented (McEwing, Bordick, Woodward, Eckstein, and countless others.) Bottom line: there is little hope for Murphy to be an impact player.
Do I oppose giving young guys a shot- no, although generally with the Mets, I have no onfidence in their scouting department to produce prospects of consequence, so I am a little more reluctant.
Does anybody realize that this is essentially Murphy’s first year in the major leagues. Not to mention trying to learn two new positions all while playing in New York while being completely exposed in an anemic lineup. Do these writers/talk show hosts/fans realize this?
Can we give the kid a chance? We know he is not Albert Pujols, but we don’t know what he will become.
who cares what Mike Francesa has to say anyway.
Francesa is absolutely right, as much as I can’t stand the fat loudmouth.
What is it with our obsession with Murphy????? He’s not that talented, never has been. He doesn’t have a position. I don’t get why the organization looks so highly on him.
Sure, I can understand why some Mets fans like him… hard-working Irish kid, he’s seen as kind of an underdog. The reason he’s viewed that way??? HE’S NOT TALENTED!
We have no other option right now, so why spew so much venom? You want to give Tatis more playing time at first base? Do you want to play Reed there? Come on …
He has shown enough talent to warrant the spot. Let’s talk about numbers and facts instead of moot and random things like his heritage or his skin color. How about the fact that his park-adjusted OPS+ is up to 93 (and was 129 last year). His career OPS+ so far in 678 plate appearances is a 101, which makes him at least an average Major Leaguer. His OPS, in Citi Field (where slugging percentage goes to die) is a moderate .740 … not numbers that will carry your team, but certainly not a number that would hurt your team considering a .740 OPS relative to the league’s average OPS.
Marlon Anderson managed to get 400+ ABs in 4 different seasons (over a 12 year career) with a lifetime .705 OPS and a FAR less impressive first full season (.252, 5 HR, .652 OPS in 484 PAs).
In a nutshell, your argument that Daniel Murphy has no place in baseball or on this team is horrendous. You should consider changing your argument. If he can post a .750 OPS in his first full season playing in Citi Field on a team with ZERO lineup protection, I’m pretty happy with that.
“We have no other option right now, so why spew so much venom? You want to give Tatis more playing time at first base? Do you want to play Reed there? Come on …”
You are not understanding the point of my post, and maybe I didn’t frame it the right way. Clearly, right now, when we are 22 games under .500, sure lets play Daniel Murphy. What do we have to lose? We might as well go sign Dave Mlicki and Anthony Young and throw them in our starting rotation. My point, which I should’ve illustrated here (but have several other times over the past several weeks) is that everybody loves Daniel Murphy because he’s homegrown, had a couple of hot weeks last year and he’s the best product of our system in the past couple of years… which is pathetic. My point is more an indictment of the terrible state of this organization; we have almost nothing to build a future with in our minor league system. You can’t build a team based on 5 building blocks and filling in the rest with crappy players because as we see this year, the team sucks if somebody gets hurt or has a bad year.
How about we build the damn farm system. Its fantastic that we have Ike Davis coming through the system; he seems to actually be a legitimate 1b prospect. If we had one or two legit pitching prospects then I’d feel much better about the future of the team. I’m not sure what to make of Jon Niese, but other than him we don’t have any real pitching prospects who played a full season at AA this year. We’ll never be a sustainably great team until we build our farm system.
Now, back to Daniel Murphy. I don’t hate the guy by any means and I don’t enjoy ripping on him contrary to what you seem to believe. Its not his fault he’s in this situation. But I fully stand by my comment that Daniel Murphy doesn’t belong right now. Down the road, sure I think he could be a major league first baseman for a team like the Royals. Maybe he can succeed Mike Jacobs as the crappy first baseman from the Mets farm system who nobody else wants so he ends up on the Royals.
Comparing him to Marlon Anderson does not help your argument one bit. This is supposed to be a big market major league baseball team and you’re comparing our starting LF/1B to Marlon Anderson? You mention that Anderson had 400+ AB’s 4 times. Did you happen to check the record of the teams he played on in those years? They were a combined 306-331, with zero playoff appearances. And you’re comparing our 1B to this guy? And you want him to start at 1B for us next year?? Maybe you need to re-think YOUR argument.
“In a nutshell”, I think its very clear that you are one of the Mets fans who is happy to accept mediocrity. Lets forget about his hitting for a second; do you have any idea how bad “baseball instincts” are? I knew when I was in little league that you should never make the last out at 3rd base (especially when you’re extremely slow), let ALONE try to steal third base with two outs. Or how about the time when he fielded a soft-hit ground ball and threw to second base, where the runner was safe by a mile. Not exactly a brainiac this Daniel Murphy. And don’t tell me “he’s making rookie mistakes”. He’s been playing baseball his entire life, he knows what to do and what not to do just like you do, and just like I do.
You want to talk about numbers and facts? Here are some numbers for you:
OPS’s of the 8 first baseman on teams currently in the playoffs:
0.949, 0.959, 0.951, 0.913, 0.911, 0.773, 0.891, 1.127.
Daniel Murphy’s? .740. Lower than everyone of them, and SIGNIFICANTLY lower than 7/8 of them (James Loney is the only one remotely close to Murphy’s and Loney was a 1st round pick, which means he at least has the raw baseball talent to significantly improve).
How about some more numbers. His BABIP last year (when Mets fans fell in love with him) was .382. That means that his batting average last year was due to LUCK, and was a fluke. His BABIP this year is .285, which is about average. The conclusion to draw here is that this year he regressed to the mean; i.e., going forward you’re much more likely to get a .266 batting average (2009) from Daniel Murphy than a .313 (2008).
Final point (Giles): Francesa today makes the point that baseball execs always say to disregard players’ numbers from April and September (in meaningless seasons, not pennant races), something that I totally agree with. Murphy couldn’t help the team when we really needed him, May-August. Now that the pressure is off and nobody takes the Mets seriously, he’s started hitting again. Ignore the September stats, they’re outliers.
You keep arguing for Daniel Murphy to be our first baseman next year, I’m hoping for something way better. I want to win the World Series, and in order to do that one thing we’ll have to do is upgrade over Daniel Murphy.
Also, Cerrone:
It would be awesome if you responded in the comments section to the things you post. It would make for an engaging conversation, as opposed to you posting something and then forgetting about it while you work on your next post. To me it would be much more interesting. I tend to disagree with about 50% of the things you say, so it would be fantastic to make my point and then hear you respond.
Matt used to respond when he had more time and when there was far less venom in the discussion section than there is today.
He’s extremely busy these days, often on the field, recording videos, going to the studio, etc. When would he have the time to respond?
Also, in all fairness, he learned responding wasn’t worth the trouble — because in the history of a message board debate, no one has every convinced a poster to change stance. What could Matt say to convince you that Murphy is a player worth giving a chance to? He can’t. What could you say that would make him think Murphy is a waste? Nothing. So why bother? The only thing that can usually go down is a little name calling or implied insults.
The only reason you want him to respond is so you can criticize his response to your response to his response to your response :)
Matt simply wants to post about semi-controversial topics to stoke the fires here, and let us debate away at each other.
maybe you should calm down man, the only point i’m getting from your responses is you don’t like Murphy, you think this is the best he’ll ever be and he gets a pass because he’s irish?
I love that 90% of this fan base was crying for some more hard-nosed gritty type players, and when we finally get one who is actually home-grown, we want to run him out of town because he doesn’t produce enough. This should have been Murphy’s AAA season, and he spent it all at the MLB level and put up pretty decent numbers as far as I’m concerned. I have no problem giving him the 1B job next season. Go get a LFer and a # 2.
We should all realize one thing: Francesa can not stand it–we Met Fans STILL have LOVE in our herats for our “miserable” team, we love them, warts & all. His YANKEE fans would have jetisoned the whole lot of them by now, if they had the audacity of failure that we have endured. Mike Francesa hates the Mets, Met fans & orange & blue. Just try saying anything about why JOBA has a ‘free pass’ to be ineffective, given special privleges and even arrested for DUI–it’s verboten! I’m just cutting MURPH as much slack as Joba gets. And he doesn’t even NEED the free pass on MOST of this JOBA RULE NONSENSE—on & off the field, Murphy is a classy kid.
thats not fair to say. i think its because those 3 have more talent than murph, thats probably why you dont hear people say that
Do you realize that you are being racist, not the others? I think Carlos Beltran is extremely dedicated (who works harder off the field and takes care of himself the way Beltran does?). I think Jose Reyes is extremely passionate (so is Frankie).
I think what people may be referring to is that as of now, Murphy runs out every ground ball. He goes all out for every foul popup, and goes into second base at full throttle to break up a double play. This is more typical of young players on the cusp than of any race or ethnicity.
Stop being racist by looking for racism that isn’t there.
I don’t think what your describing is hidden racism.
I think they are cover ups for a guy who isn’t blessed with a full compliment of the five tools. Is David Eckstein “scrappy” because he is white, or because he’s only good enough to be a a super sub, or is he short?
Hidden racism is when a guy like Vitale talks about African American college players being articulate or well spoken. Does he describe white players in the same way? Oh wait, he describes them as “dedicated, passionate, over-achiever, loves the game, and who plays hard and works even harder”
I take that back. I think you might be right.
That’s my point Backstop. Guys like Beltran and Reyes work extremely hard AND are talented. But we never hear that. All we hear about is how Reyes doesnt care enough, etc.
But a guy liek Francouer or Murphy, who isn’t talented but only works hard, we can’t stop talking about their intangibles.
And how many Larry Bird – Danilo Gallinari comparisons were made before the draft?
I’m not going to say there’s no racism, I think we’re all subtly effected by all sorts of things. But Met fans loved Jose Reyes before he was valuable, for 3 years when he was a leadoff hitter with a .300 OBP. We loved Timo Perez (until Game 1 of the 2000 WS). We loved Endy Chavez for three years on the basis of one catch in a game we lost. As for Beltran .. fans react the way they reacted to Kevin McReynolds. Beltran is a player whose greatness is in his restraint and self-control, his Dimaggio-like grace, his professionalism. But his enduring image (until he replaces it) is of striking out looking. Most fans will never love a Beltran the way they love Derek Jeter. We love Murphy but not Nick Evans. We love Santos and not Schneider. And we certainly don’t all love Francouer — that trade was roundly condemned — and then he produced. Are we racist? It probably has some effect. But I think we’d undervalue Beltran and overvalue Jeter even if they were both white. And I think we’d always love Murph.