I am not convinced Jerry Manuel will back as Mets manager in 2010.
Yes, I believe the team is leaning towards bringing him back.
However, from what I can tell, he has not done himself any favors with what he’s been saying, and how the team has been playing, since the Mets were officially eliminated on September 14 – 
during which they have since gone 4–10, dropping to 90 losses for the first time since 2004.
In a recent report for Newsday, David Lennon said Omar Minaya, Manuel and ownership will meet on tomorrow’s off day to discuss the team’s coaching staff.
However, from what I can tell, the Mets are not so much asking Manuel and Minaya, ‘How are you going to fix this mess,’ so much as they’re asking, ‘How are you going to fix this mess,’ in an effort to learn why these two men should remain at the helm.
In the end, I bet they’re both on board for at least the start of next season – though I disagree, and think this is a shortsighted approach.
The thing is, the team’s top decision-makers know the Mets were 55–37 under Manuel during 2008, and were 21–16 and in first place this season on May 17, the day Jose Reyes first reported pain in his calf… and it was all downhill from there, as the Mets suffered one injury and one loss after another.
So, I understand the team wanting to give Manuel the benefit of the doubt, thinking: had his best players not been hurt, had they all been healthy for 162 games, he and his players would have continued to build upon that 21–16 record and today could be making plans for post-season baseball.
Doing your best to not be emotional about it, instead considering the massive number of injuries, expectations, individual skills, etc…
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Given this:
“The thing is, team’s top decision-makers know Mets were 55–37 under Manuel during 2008, and were 21–16 and in first place this season on May 17, the day Jose Reyes first reported pain in his calf… and it was all downhill from there, as the Mets suffered one injury and one loss after another.”
I find it shocking that 75% of the voters thus far think Manuel is incapable of taking the Mets to the World Series.
I’m not exactly a big time Manuel fan … but this vote is clearly the result of un-objective / emotional voting. With a healthy team, the guy did very well.
I understand the crippling injuries the Mets had this year and no one could expect this team, or any other team with so many injuries, to even come near to the post season.
But my problem w/ Jerry is that the few things that should have gone right have gone horribly. I don’t care if you’re not winning games or have injured talent. That shouldn’t affect a team’s fundementals.
Although the Mets were going to lose a lot of games this year, they’ve lost more than they should have and usually by shooting themselves in the foot with horrible defense, bad throwing choices, poor judgement on defense, sloppy baserunning, poor baserunning choices, and atrocious situational hitting i.e. guys trying to hit pop ups and ground balls at the wrong times.
In sum, Jerry does not appear to increase the Hustle or Baseball IQ of the Mets players. While the Mets were going to lose a lot of games this year, there is no excuse whatsoever with the WAY the Mets have lost these games.
While I know I speaking in generalities here one instance really illustrates what I’m talking about:
Every Met fan feels that if it had been one of Jerry Manuel’s Mets running the bases w/ 2 outs in the 9th inning instead of Mark Teixeira, The Met Player would have been standing on 2nd or 3rd base as Robinson Cano dropped the popfly instead of scoring the winning run. That sensation that every Met fan feels is the reason Jerry Manuel should be let go.
I feel comfortable in saying that the Mets probably wouldn’t have scored the winning run on Luis’ Castillo’s error and that the Braves, Yankees(obviously) , Phillies, or Dodgers would have.
That’s a great point. I would expect a mets player to be standing on 3rd and not scoring. That’s the type of play that we’ve become accustomed to.
If the plan is to bring Jerry and Omar back in addition to the Mets cutting their payroll by not bringing in any impact players………………what exactly is ownership trying to sell the public on for the 2010 season?
Another season like 2007/2008/2009.
Don’t tease us Matt.
Look, a lot of teams win in spite of bad managers, as the Mets did last year.
But Jerry’s incompetence — love of the sacrifice, lack of understanding of bullpens, insane love affair with awful players like Tatis and Santos — would catch up with the team eventually.
What did the mets win last year?
games.
no one hates jerry more than me, and they won in spite of him no doubt, but 55-37 isn’t bad
If we fill our holes, stablize the rotation and just field a championship team (well a team good enough to go to war with) is jerry really going to be the reason we don’t win a WS? I can’t believe that to be the case, i voted yes
and i also am not one of the people that think the mets players wouldn’t have been running, i actually think they probably would have been running
and i also think jerry will probably be back and he’ll have to crack the whip – no more of this fear of showing up a player, if somebody doesn’t run out a pop-up (F-mart) makes a stupid mistakes on the basepaths (Pagan) and does something stupid (Castillo and what’s his name crossing each other on the basepaths, failing to back-up third, first, etc) then they should be taken out of the game and benched for the next game. I don’t know if that will happen or not
I think Jerry is fine, I don’t think he is a great manager and I think he sometimes goes with his gut at times he shouldn’t. Sometimes it works out (Pagan starting that game in LA that Church didn’t step on 3rd) and sometimes it doesn’ t (pinch hitting Santos for Castro). He also is too obsessed with LH/RH matchups, but give this team the missing pieces (and Dave Duncan please) I don’t see how Jerry is going to prevent us from going to a WS
I think you set up for one question and then asked an entirely different one.
Your set-up leads to the question ‘can Jerry Manuel lead a competitive, winning team?’ – I say he can.
World Series? Totally different question. I think in a short playoff series this guy will be exposed ten times over.
That’s not emotion talking, its a totally different question.
Dave and thedude find common ground. I love it.
there are very difinitely cases of teams winning despite the manager, not because of him.
And the empirical evidence (actually watching the games, seeing what he does) show that he is not a very good manager. And if you want to give him the credit for wins, give him the blame for a team that plays lousy baseball.
Maybe rephrasse the question this way “Even if there is a chance that a Jerry could take a healthy team to the playoffs, do you think a different manager will give them a better chance”?
Your notion of “empirical evidence” boils down to your personal perception of what constitutes good and bad moves from your couch.
No offense, but i’m not sure I am willing to make organization decisions on what a guy like stickguy perceives from his sofa. For starters, stickguy isn’t privy to even half of the information at hand. He doesn’t know who is sore, he doesn’t have match-ups in front of him, he probably didn’t watch batting practice and know who is or is not in the dog house.
Also, worth noting, is that as a manager, having to work with a lineup with inexperienced and/or less talented guys is going to make most of your decisions look bad in hindsight. When you are trying to decide whether or not it makes sense to have Pagan steal (who is clueless on the bases), or whether to hit Santos or Valdez in a pinch hitting spot … or whether to use Tatis as your first baseman or your left fielder … chances are you are going to look like a bad manager.
You really can only evaluate a guy based on what he has to work with, and then factor in all of that stuff above that neither you or I know much about.
well, based on this, I guess the only thing a manager can be judged on is wins, so Jerry gets canned just for that.
OB, you make some valid points. That being said, there is no excuse for a lack of fundamental baseball. Things like missing a base, dropping a pop-up, not hitting the cut-off man, running the bases, throwing to the right base… these are all things I learned in little league. A manager should at least be able to have his players doing the fundamentals.
No one knows though that the team would have continued to play well. Maybe, maybe not. Yeah he was dealt a bad hand with the injuries and the lack of help Omar provided him, but he still needs to shoulder the blame for a widespread lack of focus by a lot of players. We made a lot of mistakes that you dont expect to see at this level, regardless of who is playing. Major league players should not be making baserunning mistakes, not using two hands for the last out of the game, for missing a base as you run past it, i mean, there were countless mental errors. Yes, we had a lot of AAAA players getting playing time, and that could be why they arent starting elsewhere (ahem, Pagan). Maybe you cant blame Manuel for that b/c he isnt the one playing, but he just seems to say one thing and do the opposite…everytime.
I think the key issue is that you never get the sense that there is a PLAN. Even when you lose half your team to injury, you need a plan. As Matt has pointed out, situation like Evans collecting dust on the bench and the continued use of 40 year old Takahashi and Tatis seem to indicate that Jerry is more interested in 2 or 3 more wins than in evaluating potential talent to either trade or use for 2010. Like him or hate him, Rick Petersen and his little notes reflect more of a plan than Dan “I look clueless” Warthen shows. Also, I get worried when Jerry talks about players mental mistakes (e.g., Castillo’s love of the sacrifice bunt, Beltran’s failure to slide, and Pagan’s lack of awareness on the bases) as if he’s a spectator and the manager.
Speaking of Petersen, I think I remember hearing that the pitching coach of the Cards is available after this season. Does anyone know if that’s true, and if so, why not make a run at him?
YES!
He could buy them tickets to the grandstand, pack a picnic and hire a bus….
and take them to the World Series.
It would be a fun day for los Mets.
wiseguy :)
Just a little tension breaker, Mr X.
I’m someone who learned to disrespect Jerry’s knowledge and ablity as the season progressed.
It was more than just injuries.
And as far as Mr R Shines; I wish the Wilpon’s would have a lottery; I’d love to be the winner and get to fire that bafoon!
Matt -
I think your post before this one concerning Evans is exhibit A in why Jerry needs to go.
Why do I need to continue to see Tatis?
If I owned the Mets I made my decision in May & June that Jerry won’t be back.
Seeing him yuk it up and laughing as loss after loss piled up was unacceptable.
His publicly saying the team needed to get players back basically stopping just short of saying the players there couldn’t get it done and making excuses about injuries was NO GOOD.
The Angels had some pretty important players going down this year too. Never once heard those type of things from their team.
Not very becoming of a leader or manager of my team if I am paying the bills.
if Charlie Manuel can win a World Series, Jerry Manuel can certainly guide a team there. we put together a good enough team next year, then i don’t think Jerry is so incapable that he alone would hold us back from winning.
There is no way the mets can be rebuilt in the winter/spring training. It is not realistic to think they will be a winning team in 2010. It will take at least 2 hrs for them to be competitive. way too many holes to fill.
The fact that so many people are siting examples where a team has won in spite of their manager shows that we need a new manager. Why settle for someone that won’t ‘get in the way’ of a winning team? How about we get a manager that actually HELPS his team win.
An as for all the mistakes being because we’re using AAA players, most of the mistakes have been made by our regulars! David not hustling, Church missing a base, Beltran not sliding, Castillo missing a pop-up, or making a bad play. These are signs of the manager not keeping his team focused and making them play inspired ball.
Good points all. Cool name…
While I respect those in the minority, I can’t believe anyone who has suffered miserably through this season (compounded by the resurgence of the Yanks) and watched this team still thinks either of these clowns deserves to be back.
Wins, losses and injuries aside…this team’s day to day approach to the game, in-game decision making, lack of fundamental/smart baseball and embarassing handling of off the field issues should be enough to make that assessment.
Jerry and Omar are average at best, at what they do. This year, they were horrendous.
It’s over Wilpons. Just admit it. Send them packing and start again.
Is he capable? Yes. He did it with Chicago. Should he be the manager next year? No, I do not think so; not when Bobby Valentine is available. This team needs someone that can bring out the best in them, and Jerry has not been able to do this. Ideally, we should look for a new GM, too, as changes are needed from top to bottom.
Swept by the Nationals. What a way to finish up. Sorry – there is simply no way that Jerry will be back next year. Fairly or unfairly, there has to be a whole new face and voice leading the team on the field and he has to go. Just when I thought it would be hard to get over the way September went in 07 and 08, we sputter to the finish line this year. Pathetic.
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