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In a mailbag Q&A for MLB.com, Mets reporter Marty Noble believes the Mets would need to trade players like John Maine and Fernando Martinez, ‘in a deal to get a No. 2 pitcher or a power hitter.’
Maine was 2–2 with a 4.12 ERA in his final four starts after returning from the disabled list in 2009.
…there has been a lot of online talk about whether the Mets will tender maine a contract next season… i believe he’ll be back… and i hope he is… i don’t know how the contract will shake out, but, from what i can gather, the Mets have no interest in cutting him loose – and they have every intention of keeping him around through at least spring training… they still love his arm, and talk about his effortless delivery… if he can adjust his workouts and stay healthy, they still think he can be a major factor in the rotation… as do i… he’s eligible for arbitration, and will likely get around $2.5 million… he is not able to be a free agent until after the 2011 season… and so, he does make for an interesting trade candidate, so long as it means upgrading the rotation… the thing is, are those four starts in 2009 enough to entice another team…
In a separate response, Noble says, “The Mets have identified their primary need as power and run production, followed by starting pitching and a catcher.”
To read Noble’s take on Dan Warthen, Mike Pelfrey and Oliver Perez, as well as the future of Josh Thole, silly trade requests and the vital need for better grammar in Internet mailbags, click here.
Yes. power and run production. They figured it out. Only took them months.
They forgot manager and pitching coach. and backup C/bench.
With Maine’s injury issues the last two season’s, I’m not sure he has much of any trade value. I think the Mets are better off holding onto him and moving him to the pen to help out there (at the same time declining JJ Putz’s option).
I agree
As high-horse as he is, I like how Noble used that ridiculous trade proposal to try and educate some fans out there that it indeed takes two sides to make a trade.
“Let’s deal here with possibilities, not fantasies and pipe dreams.”
hahaha…I think this certainly is applicable to Metsblog as well.
And giving a lesson on grammar in E-mail, I can only imagine the peculiar formats he’s received over time.
Marty Noble is a moron. I feel sorry for anyone who takes what he says seriously.
Why would we need to trade to acquire either of them? I think it’s obvious that Holliday is Omar’s #1 priority, and he usually gets what he goes after (Johan, K-Rod, etc.). Whether or not we will sign a guy like Lackey after that is to be seen, but it is possible.
The only situation I see us trading guys like F-Mart or Maine is in a trade with the Rays for Crawford. But if we do that, then Lackey should be a Met for sure.
Marty Noble has been way off on so many issues, and I get a good laugh every time Matt puts a link to his articles as a joke.
However, let me set the record straight by saying those mailbag questions made Noble look like a genious, LOL. Wow, every day I am reminded of how ignorant a lot of Mets fans are.
Omar only gets when he goes after when the Angels, Yankees and Red Sox are not going after the same thing.
Yankees weren’t interested in Beltran at the time he signed with the Mets. None of the aforementioned teams were interested in paying Wagner when we got him as well. Mets didn’t get Daisuke Matsuzaka when they wanted him either.
When all of the big boys are out of the game and the Mets are the only team left with any money, Omar usually gets when he goes after.
In all fairness, the Mets outbid the third team by a lot for Dice-k. Who would have thought any team would bid $51M. That is just other worldly.
And also the Mets were focused on Zito that offseason (and to a lesser extent re-signing Bradford in the early days). The fact that they were the second highest bidder for Dice-K was pretty impressive actually.
Really the Red Sox bid way too much for him. In the end I think the Mets dodged a bullet. Dice K has been good, but not great.
That’s my point though. Although it turned out good for the Mets on both accounts, they got neither Dice-K nor Zito, two guys they coveted. I rest my case.
The Yankees and Red Sox both wanted Johan Santana.
I have said many times on here though, I am in the minority because I trust Omar to get what we need this offseason. Like Matt said earlier, he is a good GM…not great, but good. People bash him for his bad contracts, but name one good GM who has been around for a while and has no bad contracts.
The Yankees and Red Sox wanted Santana, but the Twins were not willing to send him to an AL competitor, so you are not correct here. Johan also had a full no trade, and wasn’t going to go to Arizona or some other small market team. Johan wanted NYC, and the Twins weren’t willing to trade with the Yankees, so there were no real choices there. How do you think we got away with giving them such a poor package of prospects?
The Yankees and Red Sox were far more interested in keeping Santana from each other than getting him themselves. Mission accomplished.
Also, I am not as down on Omar as you think. I think a lot of this has to do with our franchise, history and ownership, not so much the GM. Players wants to be on the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals or Angels because they are proven, winning organizations. The Mets are a large market joke for most of their history, and until someone changes that culture, we’re going to be on the bottom of the totem pole, only good for our deep pockets when free agents can’t get what they want from the “big boys”
It’s doubtful that the Mets will sign Lackey due to the amount of years it’s likely going to require to land him (5-6). Omar has said a number of times that he will not go beyond that 4th year in a contract for a starting pitcher. He made the exception for Johan Santana but Lackey is not on Johan’s level.
I think it’s more likely that we’ll see the Mets trade for a pitcher or sign one of the lesser FA pitchers than sign a Lackey or Washburn.
I love how Luis Castillo escapes scrutiny this off-season simply because we have so many other holes to fill … the guy had a poor -10.5 UZR/150 defensive rating and a pitcher-like .346 slugging percentage – which brought his season OPS+ rating to 96 (below league average, despite the high on-base percentage fueled almost exclusively by infield singles).
It’s sad that our catching, pitching and power situations are all far worse than that, and that Luis will not be released outright simply because we lack the financial resources to fill all of our gaping holes.
If the Mets can trade him (while eating some contract), I think they will do it in a heartbeat. We don’t have anyone to fill in for him, though, so I think we’d have to fill the void with a guy like Hudson. I’d love to see that, and I think it is possible, but it really shouldn’t be anywhere near the top of our list right now.
Just because they put LF, SP, and C ahead of it doesn’t mean they won’t look to improve it. But I agree with those stats, and am pretty confident Castillo will not have another decent season again next year. His value will never be as high as it is now.
Like I said before, this is going to be the most intriguing (yet most criticized) offseason in recent memory.
We shall see. If Omar can pull off a trade of Castillo while actually saving some money and bringing in an affordable upgrade, I will be impressed, because quite frankly, I can’t see why anyone would want Castillo at this point considering he’s poor defensively and offensively. I mean, what kind of team is looking to bring in a sub-par player and pay for it too? Maybe a desperate team that has no 2B at all and no prospects at all … but I thought we were the only one :)
Maybe we can trade Castillo for Utley? I should propose that to Marty just to get his blood pressure up.
I find it pathetically sad that a team like the Tigers, with nowhere near the resources the Mets have, can cut loose a massive salary like Sheffield’s when he doesn’t fit what they are trying to do…but the Mets never can. The Wilpons spend money, but they are cheap in this way. They don’t understand the concept of a sunk cost, and would rather pay a guy to actually hurt their team than to just make him go away. We’ve seen it a million times – the Mets never release anyone unless it is saving them money (see Hernandez, Livan, who they released to avoid incentive bonuses).
So this notion that we are ’stuck’ with Castillo unless we can trade him is uniquely Met-driven. The hope is that off his good year someone will take him IF we eat a large chunk of salary. Otherwise, count on #1 at 2B next year.
Castillo doesn’t hurt the team by being here and getting on base in front of the middle of the order.
Hudson isn’t much better. In fact, there aren’t many better options out there. It’s not like we’re going to get Pedroia or Utley.
Sheffield, as your example, flat out stunk and was a mistake to be with the Mets anyway. although it did get the Mets to release Marlon Anderson.
It’s 2 different thing to Cut a guy in the final year of his contract then to cut him with 2 years left. Not saying holding onto Castillo is the right move here, because i would have more faith in a bag of dirt fielding 2nd base next year then leaning on castillo for another year. Also the Tigers had 121 million dollars in payroll. That’s not too far off from the 138 the mets spent. And you want terrible contracts if you complain about Omar, go look at them. WOW. They have a bunch coming off the books this year and next
Exactly what i said was one of Omars HUGE faults, expecting to catch lightning in a bottle too many times.
Trading for castillo when he did was fine, signing him to a contract would have been fine just not a 4 year deal. Giving him a 2nd chance this season was fine and he showed what he could do and built himself back up. But there is almost no chance his knees hold up, his average and OBP are replicated and his defense gets any better. Defense up the middle his a Huge thing, and his is not there anymore.
UZR isn’t perfect, and with an improved Murphy and Reyes, 2B range becomes less important.
Also, it’s not all about home runs (as long as Manuel isn’t stupid enough to bat him 8th again..holding my breath)
Castillo could score 150 runs from the second spot in the order in front of Wright, Beltran and Holliday/other.
“UZR isn’t perfect”
It isn’t entirely wrong either. Castillo’s UZR has been bad for years now, and continues to decline as he ages. It’s a decent measuring stick. Castillo’s defense, if nothing else, is below average for the position, and he doesn’t hit enough to justify it.
“with an improved Murphy and Reyes, 2B range becomes less important.”
Not really. With an improved Murphy and Reyes, you have improved defense at SS and 1B, but you still have sub-par defense at 2B. You can’t go with a beer goggles philosophy on this one.
“Also, it’s not all about home runs (as long as Manuel isn’t stupid enough to bat him 8th again..holding my breath)”
It’s more slugging percentage than homeruns. Castillo is a one trick pony, and if he’s not in a situation where there is no one on base, he’s hurting your lineup.
“Castillo could score 150 runs from the second spot in the order in front of Wright, Beltran and Holliday/other.”
So could anyone else with a .387 on-base percentage (which is more likely to be closer to .350 next year). That’s this pony’s one trick. The problem is, you aren’t factoring in the lost RBI potential in your equation. How many RBI is he going to cost you? That’s all part of the run production formula, it’s not just runs scored. Hudson – just as an example – probably posts a similar run total with a similar OBP, but drives in an additional 15-30 runs in RBI spots, netting you more wins.
yes, it’s a one-trick pony. But that one-trick is a good one. Batting second. He’s patient, which normally I would say is a bad thing for the Mets, but if he’s going to allow Reyes to steal more (which is something Manuel needs to not hold him back from) his RBI chances at that position are less because of the pitcher, and Reyes’ speed helps him advance first to third, steal a base and score on a single, etc.
My point about his range not being as important was simply that Murphy and Reyes have good range, and cover some of the corners that Castillo might not get.
His OBP has always been high. even in his bad 2008. This is a good trait out of a 2 hitter. It’s one of the positions in the order where SLG is not as important.
Hudson is just not that good. It’s too close to a lateral move and a waste of time. I’m not saying that Castillo is the best at 2B, but he’s certainly closer to the top in the way that he fits into this lineup than to the bottom.
We agree on some things. I realize that in the right situations, his patience and OBP are beneficial. You are right about that. But his weaknesses are equally exposed in other situations, which needs to be remembered as well.
The thing is, you are only the #2 batter the first time through the order, and maybe once again after that if the stars align. More often than not in a baseball game you are just a guy coming up in a situation … so while Castillo’s high OBP hurts you less frequently in “Any given at-bat” ™ due to decreased out frequency, he rarely helps you do anything. As we said, walks and infield singles only help you prolong a situation, and add a baserunner. The key to baseball and crooked numbers has always been slugging percentage, the ability to clear bases, preferably in bunches. Every time late in a game that Castillo comes up with a man on first (or second), you know there is a marginal chance he is going to drive that run in. It’s frustrating, and it adds up. Rarely does the guy put himself in scoring position on his own hits as well. Luis Castillo is a catalyst of the 3-hits-to-score-a-run challenge that plagued the Mets in 2009.
“My point about his range not being as important was simply that Murphy and Reyes have good range, and cover some of the corners that Castillo might not get.”
I understand, but I think that is a marginal upgrade at best.
As for Hudson, I am with you on him being a marginal upgrade. It’s probably not worth the money, of course, but he would still be an upgrade.
Before I rip into Luis Castillo, I agree with many Met fans that he was our most “consistent” offensive player this year. High OBP, solid BA, steals, walks, etc… He took his gaffe against the Yankees like a man, and he responded with character and dignity.
Ultimately, he was consistently ineffectual. Twelve doubles and one homer from our 2nd baseman doesn’t get it done. The Bottom Line is that we cannot afford Luis Castillo in our line-up as power challenged as we are.
Defensively, his range is limited as is his arm, particularly on relay throws from the outfield. His physical conditioning and health remain a constant concern and there’s no guarantee that he won’t wind up on the DL next year.
I am in favor of trading him ASAP, at least no later than the winter meetings. A willing trade partner is likely to come from the AL, which can carry his light bat. The team will certainly want cash and, perhaps, a prospect. Anything we recoup from Castillo’s contract is found money.
And while I remain adamant about trading him, I must confess he showed an enormous amount of courage and heart last season. I wish he was 10 years younger or that we had a roster that could support his light hitting. Unfortunately, neither is the case.
Have you ever heard the phrase, “staying on topic”? Where in Noble’s column was Luis Castillo mentioned? Nobody wrote in about Castillo, and none of his answers referred to Castillo. Matt’s intro didn’t talk about Castillo. Why bring up Castillo here? Why are you so obsessed with Luis Castillo?
You think the Mets get rid of Castillo and all their problems are solved? Nobody’s saying Castillo is an All-Star, and who knows what the Mets do with him as the offseason hasn’t even started yet. But if the Mets bring in a power hitting LF, or manage to trade for a Fielder and a Gonzalez, and they upgrade the rotation, AND they keep Castillo, then the offseason was a success.
No matter how much you want to rant about it, they really DO have too many other holes to worry too much about Castillo right now. Seriously, bro, you should come to terms with it.
Maine isn’t difficult to analyze. If he’s healthy, he’s effective. If he’s not healthy, he’s not effective.
The only issue with him is whether he can put hitters away with his secondary and tertiary pitches. He gets alot of swing-and-misses, but that tends to elevate his pitch count, especially when hitters spoil his out-pitch by fouling it off.
Maine would benefit by developing greater downward movement on his slider to induce more ground balls. He will be that much more effective when he elevates with his high heat.
In all, I like John Maine’s stuff, his attitude and his character in general. The Mets should keep him through the 2011 season unless some willing trade partner blows us away. I don’t expect that to happen because he is recovering from an injury. If he’s healthy, then there is no reason to trade him.
One other thing about Maine. If he continues to struggle putting hitters away, he might ultimately be better suited to pitch in short bursts from the bullpen as K-Rod’s set-up man. I don’t favor that use of him, because I think he is capable of pitching late into his starts, but its an option.
You really wasted your time there.
The point of this discussion forum is to discuss, and clearly the Castillo comments generated healthy discussion (some of the better debating I have seen on here as well).
Go troll somewhere else message board police man :)
I like Maine but how can the Mets possibly count on 30 starts from him? I hope I am wrong but this seems so similar to last year when the Mets have unrealistic expectations on players. Maine should be fighting for a 5th spot, not handed the 3 or 4. He hasn’t been effective in years.
He’s fighting for a spot in the rotatoin, not the ‘3 or 4′. that stuff’s irrelevant.
But Maine is one of the reasons Lackey is the wrong choice because he’s battled injury two consecutive years. Maine should be the only guy that’s an injury risk, and we should have the depth *Niese, etc* to overcome that.
Unless you count Perez as injury risk if you think it was a product of his mismanagement and not just a fluke.
I don’t like assigning numbers to starters, I just mean that a 5 starter is usually in an open competition for starts which is what Maine should be.
I would be very worried if he was written down as a starter and we have very little depth behind him…
“The Mets have identified their primary need as power and run production, followed by starting pitching and a catcher.”
DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
The Mets should be able to get both Holliday and Lackey. Then we should sign Bedard, Harden or Sheets. Then sign BArajas to a 2 year deal. Re-sign Cora to a 1 year deal for 1 mill. If we can trade CAstillo for Hudson. That is top- notch stuff and we’ll have a great team next year. The only thing that is king of unrealistic though is trading CAstillo.
It stands to reason that the emails Noble gets are dumb, because anyone who relies on mets.com and Marty Noble for information can’t be that bright. That would literally be the last place I would go for Mets info.
I haven’t read the piece yet but can imagine what it says. And how can someone who thinks trading a mediocre pitcher whos always injured or a potential- and injury-riddled young outfielder will net anything of serious value mock other people’s trade proposals?
LIke Odalis PErez. Wouldn’t we love if OMAr said this is our potential 2 starter. He has great stuff. Wow OMar.
I read his articles whenever they’re linked from here…usually good for a laugh.
His most recent email-mock-trade asked about Krod going to the Cards for Pujols…hahaha…Noble’s rebuttal is actually funny and could be applied to this site.
Yeah, i read them too when linked here. Although they always end up making me angry.
But how can anyone who says Josh Thole isn’t a contact hitter (as he does in that mailbag) make fun of anyone’s baseball acumen?
Yea i saw the article last night linked form MLBTR, read it over for a good laugh as they typically are. Once i got to the Thole part, i kind of shook my head. All the dude does is hit. Yes it’s not for power, but he hits, consistently, gets on base a ton. Only 3 positions can you hit and not have any resemblance of power but have a very good mlb career. 2nd base, short stop and Catcher. I’d agree with noble if Thole was say an outfielder. And i do agree that he needs another year in AAA to hone his defense.
I don’t get looking at his minor league numbers how you can possibly say he’s not a contact hitter who gets on base. Since his rookie ball he’s had the following lines:
.269/406/337 (35 games) Rookie A gulf coast
.235/.300/.306 (36 games) Rookie A Kingsport
.267/.372/.311 (117 games) A ball Sally
.300/.382/.427 (111 games) adv A St Lucie
.328/.395/.426 (103 games) AA bingo
So he has had OBP’s of .406, .372, .382, .395.
As he’s progressed his average has increased and his OBP has stayed relatively the same. Scouts have said his pitch recognition has turned into more hits. His last 3 years in the minors he’s had 334 hits in 331 games.
Noble just made flat out no sense on that one.
They want us to concentrate on something else so we won’t wory about OMar. Nice try
Just saying, Didn’t Oamr say there wasn’t a price limit this off-season? Funny stuff
Marty Noble is the biggest id iot in the world. I hate reading his stupid mailbags, how many more do we have to deal with in the off-season, Can the WS PLEASE end so we can move on from this nightmare
I agree that was a stupid trade though, why even publish it.
I like Maine, is he finally healthy? maybe but if he is he can be really good. I think that we need another pitcher in the rotation, if we get rid of Maine then we need somebody to replace him but even with him, WE NEED A NUMBER 2
Also, I am sick of hearing about orlando hudson, somehow he has become a savior and the anti-castillo or whatever, he’s not that good
I agree with some posters about Hudson; while I like him, he is injury prone, and to go through gyrations and have to eat salary or a bad contract to get rid of Castillo does not sound so hot to me.
I am a big proponent of signing Lackey, and if you could get both he and Holliday, that would be a super offseason. If we get just Holliday, I wonder what else we’ll be doing– maybe a trade?
What happened to “pitching, pitching, pitching” from Minaya?
He’s going to make a big (ppl and media care more about offense) desperate move in an attempt to save his job. It isn’t going to work. He’ll be gone and we’ll be left holding the check.
Omar did well to get the franchise kick started by overpaying for Petey and Beltran … but since then, he really hasn’t done much — that any other reasonable person could not have done … especially with regard to building this team for the long haul. almost all of his short term fixes have been busts …
a daring GM would consider trading both Reyes and Beltran … and for the ‘right’ deals both could be had – that would both improve the team now and for the long haul. i believe their value is still high, and their injury histories are and will likely to continue to jeapardize each season’s success.
most will not argue about the contributions both of these players make when healthy, but Reyes has been healthy what, 1 season, and Beltran hasn’t played a full year in several years … this is not chance — it is a pattern.
there is no doubt that we need a power bat, LF/1B, a quality SP, and an everyday catcher … then maybe we can work on improving 2B and maybe a RP.
i am going to ask this nicely – are you kidding?
Reyes has been healthy the last four seasons, he had an injury this year that could have been fixed by surgery but he elected to not go this front and try to rehab it, it didn’t work, it’s been repaired surgically
plus his injuries before this were very odd and based on a lot of scrutiny into how he ran etc, and changing the way he ran.
You say daring, i say a stupid gm trades reyes at this moment. I will give you a little more leeway with Beltran because of concerns of his knee but I still think it would be stupid to change him.
Even though it may be selling below value on Fernando Martinez, he is still only 21 with plenty of potential. I would package him as the centerpiece for a deal to bring Carl Crawford to Queens. The Rays do have loads of OF prospects, but they would shed the 10.5M owed to Crawford this season. As far as OF prospects, if he turned into a great player, it would be nice, but corner OF’ers are available every off season. He is injury prone at a young age and to bring in a proven healthy guy like Crawford now could change this entire team. Either package em for a #2 starter, Crawford, or Adrian Gonzalez. Thats my opinion.
We would lose the whole entire farm for AGon and Crawford. It would be esaier to get Holliday and keep Murphy at first.
If we are merely trying to stay on topic with John Maine, then this thread has gone on way too long. John Maine, as a starter, is just flat out no good and just another overhyped Met. His legend has been aided by incorrect TV radar guns. He is a mediocre righty, with one pitch that he leaves high in the zone wayyyy to often. He also does not throw this fastball as hard as the gun says, as he is more 89-92 than 93-96. So, against real hitters, he works overly deep counts, gets many 2 strike pitches fouled off, and eventually gets belted. How he managed to win 15 games is beyond me, although it goes unnoticed that Perez had a better year that year (why does Maine get all this love again?). If he had a good breaking pitch, maybe he could be ok. Until then, healthy or not, he is a reliever posing as a starter (he rarely went deep into games) who is capable of a good game against weak opponents.
noble thinks this is the best ws since ‘75…he must have been in a blackout for half the years since then…a guy going to third (which ended up meaning nothing) because no one covered makes it ’special’…oy vey….