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	<title>Comments on: Read: Daniel Murphy, the Team, Fans &amp; Patience</title>
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		<title>By: Hit The Weights Zeile</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608896</link>
		<dc:creator>Hit The Weights Zeile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 05:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608896</guid>
		<description>Hey, Murphy led the team in HRs in his first full season....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Murphy led the team in HRs in his first full season&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Hit The Weights Zeile</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608895</link>
		<dc:creator>Hit The Weights Zeile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 05:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608895</guid>
		<description>you&#039;re definitely right about guys needing time to develop.  But all those guys you mentioned who took time, took that time in the minors.  And the Mets wont let their guys develop in the minors instead they rush them up to the majors to learn on the job which simply is not as effective as playing in the minors and learning.  Murphy may develop into something he may not but I guarantee you he&#039;d be better off going to AAA and letting the mets get a major leaguer (adrian gonzalez, adam laroche, adam dunn whoever) to man 1B in the meantime while Murphy AND Davis develop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you&#8217;re definitely right about guys needing time to develop.  But all those guys you mentioned who took time, took that time in the minors.  And the Mets wont let their guys develop in the minors instead they rush them up to the majors to learn on the job which simply is not as effective as playing in the minors and learning.  Murphy may develop into something he may not but I guarantee you he&#8217;d be better off going to AAA and letting the mets get a major leaguer (adrian gonzalez, adam laroche, adam dunn whoever) to man 1B in the meantime while Murphy AND Davis develop.</p>
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		<title>By: mark4212</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608886</link>
		<dc:creator>mark4212</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608886</guid>
		<description>Well one of the guys you mentioned Kendry Morales is a terrible example if your trying to say he didn&#039;t take long. 

He was signed out of Cuba where he had been playing professional baseball in 2005. He was in A then double A in 2005. 2006 he started the year in AAA got called up. 2007 Started the year in AAA then got called up. 2008 started the year in AAA then got called up. That&#039;s up and down for 3 years. 

Miguel Cabrera spent 6 seasons in the minor leagues. 6 seasons. 

Albert Pujols is the Freakest Example of any prospect in baseball history, especially RECENT baseball history. a 13th round pick, who was 20 years old, spent no time in minor leagues and made it to the MLB in 1 season where he just continued to hit and never stopped hitting. 

Daniel Murphy went from being drafted at 21 to the majors at 23. You know who else did that Ryan Braun. Yes he hasn&#039;t had the success Braun had in his 2nd MLB season. But most guys don&#039;t. Braun is a freak example. Even David Wright got 4 years in the Minors. Jose Reyes got 5 years. Carlos Beltran got 4 years. Carlos Beltran struggled mightly in his 2nd season in the majors. 

There are tons of freak examples. Like Lincecum, or Pujols, or  Mark Prior etc. But for every freak there are 500 guys who took time to develop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well one of the guys you mentioned Kendry Morales is a terrible example if your trying to say he didn&#8217;t take long. </p>
<p>He was signed out of Cuba where he had been playing professional baseball in 2005. He was in A then double A in 2005. 2006 he started the year in AAA got called up. 2007 Started the year in AAA then got called up. 2008 started the year in AAA then got called up. That&#8217;s up and down for 3 years. </p>
<p>Miguel Cabrera spent 6 seasons in the minor leagues. 6 seasons. </p>
<p>Albert Pujols is the Freakest Example of any prospect in baseball history, especially RECENT baseball history. a 13th round pick, who was 20 years old, spent no time in minor leagues and made it to the MLB in 1 season where he just continued to hit and never stopped hitting. </p>
<p>Daniel Murphy went from being drafted at 21 to the majors at 23. You know who else did that Ryan Braun. Yes he hasn&#8217;t had the success Braun had in his 2nd MLB season. But most guys don&#8217;t. Braun is a freak example. Even David Wright got 4 years in the Minors. Jose Reyes got 5 years. Carlos Beltran got 4 years. Carlos Beltran struggled mightly in his 2nd season in the majors. </p>
<p>There are tons of freak examples. Like Lincecum, or Pujols, or  Mark Prior etc. But for every freak there are 500 guys who took time to develop.</p>
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		<title>By: Sylow59</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608876</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylow59</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608876</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the big difference:

Wright was at AA when he was 20; Murphy was 23. Wright and Murphy had similar OPS in their first partial seasons wit the Mets.  Wright went on to finish 19th in MVP voting the next year, his first full season whereas the 24yo Murphy (.741) had a marginally higher OPS than Luis Castillo (.732).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the big difference:</p>
<p>Wright was at AA when he was 20; Murphy was 23. Wright and Murphy had similar OPS in their first partial seasons wit the Mets.  Wright went on to finish 19th in MVP voting the next year, his first full season whereas the 24yo Murphy (.741) had a marginally higher OPS than Luis Castillo (.732).</p>
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		<title>By: Old Backstop</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608872</link>
		<dc:creator>Old Backstop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608872</guid>
		<description>Oh, you mean the Jose Reyes that spent almost 4 years in the minors before getting called up to the Mets, where he proceeded to post a Murphy-like OPS. In his second season, he posted an atrocious .644 OPS, and followed that up in his 3rd season with the Mets with a .686 OPS. His SLG and OBP were very poor for years, and it wasn&#039;t until his 6th season as a pro that he actually posted some good offensive numbers.

David Wright actually had a similar path to Murphy. Both guys had a similar first year in A ball. Wright exploded at the AA level and showed a sudden surge in power, he hit .363 there. Murphy didn&#039;t do so bad either in his first AA year: .308	.374	.496	.870, with 13 HR in a half season worth of ABs. Not bad at all.

Murphy was called up that same year (he started the year in A ball actually where he hit .500 briefly), and posted .313	.397	.473	870 in his first cup of coffee, better than Wright&#039;s numbers in his first tour.

No one is trying to say Murphy is the next David Wright, but let&#039;s give the kid a chance, he was rushed through the system pretty fast, did well at all levels, and just hit a speed bump in the first half of this year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, you mean the Jose Reyes that spent almost 4 years in the minors before getting called up to the Mets, where he proceeded to post a Murphy-like OPS. In his second season, he posted an atrocious .644 OPS, and followed that up in his 3rd season with the Mets with a .686 OPS. His SLG and OBP were very poor for years, and it wasn&#8217;t until his 6th season as a pro that he actually posted some good offensive numbers.</p>
<p>David Wright actually had a similar path to Murphy. Both guys had a similar first year in A ball. Wright exploded at the AA level and showed a sudden surge in power, he hit .363 there. Murphy didn&#8217;t do so bad either in his first AA year: .308	.374	.496	.870, with 13 HR in a half season worth of ABs. Not bad at all.</p>
<p>Murphy was called up that same year (he started the year in A ball actually where he hit .500 briefly), and posted .313	.397	.473	870 in his first cup of coffee, better than Wright&#8217;s numbers in his first tour.</p>
<p>No one is trying to say Murphy is the next David Wright, but let&#8217;s give the kid a chance, he was rushed through the system pretty fast, did well at all levels, and just hit a speed bump in the first half of this year.</p>
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		<title>By: Hit The Weights Zeile</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608870</link>
		<dc:creator>Hit The Weights Zeile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608870</guid>
		<description>But when you have the highest payroll in the league 1 playoff appearance a couple of years ago and none for the 6 years prior is a joke.  Also you cant assume anything about 2009, look at 2007 and 2008.  As far as I&#039;m concerned this teams current group of talent/managers/coaches still has to prove that 2006 was not the exception and that they ARE a playoff team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But when you have the highest payroll in the league 1 playoff appearance a couple of years ago and none for the 6 years prior is a joke.  Also you cant assume anything about 2009, look at 2007 and 2008.  As far as I&#8217;m concerned this teams current group of talent/managers/coaches still has to prove that 2006 was not the exception and that they ARE a playoff team.</p>
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		<title>By: Old Backstop</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608866</link>
		<dc:creator>Old Backstop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608866</guid>
		<description>For everyone you named, there is another all-star that needed longer to develop.

Howard Johnson was given up on by the Tigers, and played 5 years (2 for the Mets) before he broke out and hit 36 homeruns at age 26 with 30 stolen bases. In the seasons before that, his OPS+ numbers were below 100. He went on to be an all-star level player for the next 5 or 6 years.

Interesting that you mentioned Ludwick ... who was given up on by Texas and Cleveland before the Cardinals gave him a shot, and it took him until age 29 (7 years going back and forth between the minors and majors) before his breakout season in 2008 when he hit 37 homeruns. Talk about patience ... when Ludwick was Murphy&#039;s age, he was hitting .247 with 7 homeruns in 50 games (.737 OPS).

Murphy is 24, not 27, putting him 4-5 years younger than Ludwick was when he broke out after 2 teams traded him away.

For every prospect that bloomed early, there is another prospect that bloomed early and then regressed later or a prospect that needed several years to reach potential.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For everyone you named, there is another all-star that needed longer to develop.</p>
<p>Howard Johnson was given up on by the Tigers, and played 5 years (2 for the Mets) before he broke out and hit 36 homeruns at age 26 with 30 stolen bases. In the seasons before that, his OPS+ numbers were below 100. He went on to be an all-star level player for the next 5 or 6 years.</p>
<p>Interesting that you mentioned Ludwick &#8230; who was given up on by Texas and Cleveland before the Cardinals gave him a shot, and it took him until age 29 (7 years going back and forth between the minors and majors) before his breakout season in 2008 when he hit 37 homeruns. Talk about patience &#8230; when Ludwick was Murphy&#8217;s age, he was hitting .247 with 7 homeruns in 50 games (.737 OPS).</p>
<p>Murphy is 24, not 27, putting him 4-5 years younger than Ludwick was when he broke out after 2 teams traded him away.</p>
<p>For every prospect that bloomed early, there is another prospect that bloomed early and then regressed later or a prospect that needed several years to reach potential.</p>
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		<title>By: The Eephus</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608865</link>
		<dc:creator>The Eephus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608865</guid>
		<description>Oh I misplaced a question mark. But before people point to Wright and Reyes, just remember that they paid immediate dividends with little time in the minors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh I misplaced a question mark. But before people point to Wright and Reyes, just remember that they paid immediate dividends with little time in the minors.</p>
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		<title>By: The Eephus</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608864</link>
		<dc:creator>The Eephus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608864</guid>
		<description>This is a very pointless thread... Met fans love home grown talent (the kind from the 80s) ONLY when said prospects are legitimately talented. This whole easing a player in, showing patience, etc. is all conjecture and rhetoric... How long did the Marlins have to wait on Miguel Cabrera? The Cardinals with Pujols, Ludwick, or Wainwright? The Angels with Kendry Morales? The Brewers with Braun or the Prince? I could make a huge list as per my usual, but instead of that, let us stop our stupid line of thinking with regards to patience and letting the youth develop. We have to stop looking at the afforementioned guys as rare or once in a lifetime talents? If they were so rare, how come it took me less than a minute to iron out that brief list??? Other teams find gems like this with some regularity, why do we as Met fans have to give a prospect 5 yrs when we haven&#039;t uncoverdd a gem in over 20?? Patience is only a virtue in Met fantasy land, where 27 yr olds are still considered young and on the verge of making an impact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very pointless thread&#8230; Met fans love home grown talent (the kind from the 80s) ONLY when said prospects are legitimately talented. This whole easing a player in, showing patience, etc. is all conjecture and rhetoric&#8230; How long did the Marlins have to wait on Miguel Cabrera? The Cardinals with Pujols, Ludwick, or Wainwright? The Angels with Kendry Morales? The Brewers with Braun or the Prince? I could make a huge list as per my usual, but instead of that, let us stop our stupid line of thinking with regards to patience and letting the youth develop. We have to stop looking at the afforementioned guys as rare or once in a lifetime talents? If they were so rare, how come it took me less than a minute to iron out that brief list??? Other teams find gems like this with some regularity, why do we as Met fans have to give a prospect 5 yrs when we haven&#8217;t uncoverdd a gem in over 20?? Patience is only a virtue in Met fantasy land, where 27 yr olds are still considered young and on the verge of making an impact.</p>
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		<title>By: Sylow59</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2009/11/04/read-daniel-murphy-the-team-fans-patience/#comment-608854</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylow59</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/?p=44145#comment-608854</guid>
		<description>Howard came up as a September callup in 2004.  He started 2005 at AAA and became the regular after Thome was injured.  Utley was a part timer for one year (2004).  In 2003 he was called up in August when they shifted Polanco to 3B at which time Utley was the regular 2B for the remainder of the season.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard came up as a September callup in 2004.  He started 2005 at AAA and became the regular after Thome was injured.  Utley was a part timer for one year (2004).  In 2003 he was called up in August when they shifted Polanco to 3B at which time Utley was the regular 2B for the remainder of the season.</p>
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